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View Full Version : Nerf ZA but keep them useful



Mudflaaaps
04-29-2017, 01:58 AM
I'm all for zone attacks, they're sometimes useful.
But they're WAY too powerful. Some are obviously fine, you all know what ones I'm talking about.
Peacekeeper, warden and orochi have an impossibly fast one that does fair damage. They create space, that's fine. This should be balanced by reducing the damage output by 50%.

Warlords deserves a mention of it's own. This guy is a heavy for godsake, why does he have ANY attacks faster than other classes? Too fast, too strong. Slow it by 800ms, reduce damage by about 75%. Again, space clearer only.

Noobushis is by far the worst. Not only is her ZA stupidly fast AND stupidly powerful (the most powerful maybe?), but it also has an absolutely HUGE cone of attack. I know she's not the best character, but really? That's too much. Slow it down by at least 1000ms, cut the damage by 25%. Easy fix.

Zerkers isn't terrible, it's more that even if you're blocking in the same direction, at least one will always hit. I've tested this against bots, the hit detection on its screwed.

The kensei and conquerors ZA are the perfect example of a working one. Not too fast, not too strong.
nice delays, can't be used as a last resort safety button.
Ideal to CLEAR SPACE.

This is obviously how they were intended to be used (apart from killing minions) so...fix them?

This isn't a game breaking problem by any means, but it would take a step towards a fairer playing field.

UbiNoty
04-29-2017, 02:27 AM
Ty for the feedback mudflaaaps - we want to give you all an even playing field too so I'll pass along the suggestion and hopefully the devs will take a closer look at zone attacks for the upcoming balance patch.

Moondyne_MC
04-29-2017, 02:49 AM
I lightly disagree about the Nobu's ZA speed, it's far slower than the Warden/PK/Orochi and fairly easy to parry, although the damage could be toned down as it's pretty insane. I generally only use it as a whiff punisher against assassins (assassins are Nobushi bane, so I tend to rely on it quite a bit), but the damage output is a touch high.

PK is the worst offender IMO (surprise surprise), on console you've already been hit by the time you see any indicator, and if they can cancel the second hit and combo it with some lights you're absolutely screwed, especially considering it does more damage than a light.

CeIasun
04-29-2017, 03:38 AM
Apllies to For Honor PC
I will give a short reply for now cause im going to sleep.

At the moment as a PK in 4vs4 game mode im sencerly having trouble, light attack were nerfed in a way not that I spammed a lot with it but as an opener it was good. I noticed my light attacks gets parried or block almost every time. (I will make a post about it soon working on it with video) Guardbreaks are getting more counterd also then before. even if I feint a heavy attack and then do a gueard break. I even used to deflect and then go for a guard brake but even deflect seems harder now with a PK vs certain hero's after 1.06 as an example the valk I'm having the most trouble with.

To come back to the Zone attack point, If i cant manage the defensive meta in game right now. I switch to use Zone Attack>Cancel Repeat or switch to combo's with it. I was way more happier how it was before but is works for me at least. But sure as A Peacekeeper I would't be more happier if I was able to use my other skills more often or they dont get counterd that much.

I'm not totaly agaist what you are suggesting but I first want to see an overal game balance and for me as a Peacekeeper more indept skills or combos they are relaible and not that predictible as it is now. You can think like a heavy deflect for The peacekeeper or any other skill that can be created.

If you kill Zone Attack it wil have great consequens for my main (lol onley) class if other things are not done before. And I probbely will quit the game because of the unbalance thats already in game that I find hard to struggel with. I tried even to compaire the deflect with a orochi and notiched that it was more easier to get a deflect with him then the PK. But maybe thats me need to do a little bit more testing.

So in short pls dont nerf anything else more what can effect my class until other things are more balanced and maybe the pk can get some more indept skills. I know that the pk on console is having problems because of the framrate isue but on pc thats not the case. But pls let me now if they gonna nerf my class eventuelly to the ground without giving her anything back. So I know when to quit the game and find something else to do.

I already wasn't that happy with the anaunched of the 27 and where not that possitive about the PK. The manager even said the probebly pick another class in the futher. But that's all for now on the subject I wanted to add.

SlashingElbow
04-29-2017, 04:22 AM
Please please stop this crying and nerfing the game!! Its gonna be a whole new weird version of the game if this continues. Please just learn to use the charachters and the attacks and defens right and u will be fine.

Brologna_Xeno
04-29-2017, 05:20 AM
Some ZAs are a little too gratuitous, but they should all be viable attack options imo.

If you're looking at nerfing some ZAs, I hope you would tune the AOE before speed or damage. That would be a less penalizing, but still give players more capability to manage against them. Some of the OP zones are the ones with AOEs that don't accurately match the attack: Warlord Orochi Nobushi. Or have surprising tracking like Warden and PK.

The faster ZAs should have less range/tracking and smaller AOEs...If I had a nickel for every time an Orochi ZA grazed my front toe...

Or a Warlord's ZA killed me without any contact, and same with Nobushi. Or a ZA from a Warden who glides on roller skates to land the hit

I agree with Celasun though about ZA nerfing only empowering turtle meta. Maybe fine adjustments to their AOE/tracking can be a nice compromise.

Mudflaaaps
04-29-2017, 04:16 PM
Nerfing ZA will empower the defensive meta even more yes, but that's a separate issue that needs to be addressed. I'm sure it will be addressed, but that's a lot more complex and long winded. The ZA nerfs needed are a quick and easy fix.

I disagree that the AOE of nobushis needs decreasing. The whole point is that they clear an area, they clear your immediate zone. If anything, some of them need an increase in AOE.
This should be balanced by decreasing speed and damage. ZA is too much of a last resort safety button, as well as a very powerful offensive tool when really, it should be used to clear some space around you, be that minions or heroes.
Every ZA should be the same power as the weakest light attack in the game (conquerors). Hell I'd be cool with keeping the horrendous speed of most of the ZAs If they were made a light attack.

kweassa1917
04-29-2017, 04:31 PM
ZAs are generally fine, except for those that come out too fast, also associated with glitches referred to as "flickers".

Just implement a forced stance change on all ZAs, so that when ZA command is registered, it doesn't just immediately come out regardless of your current stance, but instead, it force-changes your stance to the stance used in ZA attacks, giving off a correct attack indicator no matter what position you "flicked" your light+heavy command.

The problem with fast ZAs like Warden's and Orochi's is because not only the attack is literally fast, but also all ZA activates immediately regardless of whatever stance you were in -- whereas any other normal attack you use would require you to first change your stance to that direction (which becomes the necessary telegraph for the defenders), and then be used. Most ZAs are slower in activation so it still gives enough time to block, but if its as fast as WarDochi's, then it becomes a 1-button 50/50. And when the light-heavy delayed input is abused, then additionally, comes the "flicker' abuse.


So ZA comman = whatever position you were in, you first change stance, and then ZA comes out. For example Warden -- top position, and then try ZA for that lameshi* 50/50 trick, but after tweak, you change stance to right and then ZA activates.

Problem solved.

Mudflaaaps
04-29-2017, 04:36 PM
That just simply wouldn't work, because characters with slow guard changes would suffer and characters with fast guard changes would have an advantage. Its not difficult to switch guard and press ZA, I mean people do it the opposite way now to trick enemies.

kweassa1917
04-29-2017, 05:19 PM
That just simply wouldn't work, because characters with slow guard changes would suffer and characters with fast guard changes would have an advantage. Its not difficult to switch guard and press ZA, I mean people do it the opposite way now to trick enemies.

You don't understand the guard change correctly.

The reason it's possible to "trick" enemies with fast ZA is because ZA activates at any position immediately without a stance change. When the WarDochi shows off the top-stance, and then goes into ZA, it just immediately activates without any additional frames added in for the required stance switch. When a Warden brandishes his top-stance and then uses the ZA to "trick" enemies as you say, he doesn't take the time required to switch his stance to right and then ZA -- he just fires off an attack coming to your left side from a top-stance position.

Causing a forced changed to stance with ZA will always show the defender the Warden switching his stance to right first, which is a necessary telegraph all skills in this game have.


The Warden's ZA is clocked in around 30fps @PC in community testings, which is 0.5s. Classes with a slow guard switch are clocked in at around 20fps average, which is 0.33s. That means with pure reflex alone, you have to see and react to the incoming ZA within 0.17s to block it successfully. Medical testings put the average human reflex to visual stimuli at around 0.25s -- this is why stuff like WarDochi ZAs are very hard to block on reaction alone. Some people can do this, but usually its a result of training and anticipation.

By forcing the Warden to go through the 6fps stance switch, when he fires off a ZA from top-stance, he adds in a visual queue and an extra 0.1s for activation, which makes it 0.6s activation in total, giving you 0.27s time to react, as compared to the previous 0.17s. That 6 extra frames he needs to switch stances first, gives you 59% more time to block it.


It works.

ScottJund
04-29-2017, 05:30 PM
We have to remember that this is mostly a problem on Console and not PC. Just about the only think not reactable on PC is PK's Zone Attack. For the others, you have to train yourself to watch animations, not indicators. Parrying Orochi / Warden's Zone is easy if you do this, it just takes practice, and practice should be rewarded rather than dumbing everything down.

That being said, these attacks are fairly ridiculous on console and I feel the game should be balanced differently on the different platforms.

CeIasun
04-29-2017, 06:12 PM
No enough.!

I'm saying this with all kindness in mind.

PC version for Honor and the console version need to be adressed seperated from appart from each other. UbiSOFT need to take responsibilitie here.

If Ubisoft cant't do anything about the frame rate difference form pc 60fps and console 30 fps. It's not the fault of the PC nor console players UBISOFT need to have difference balance on the devices if they can't manage to fix the frame rate isue.

That beining said. Before any thing UBI need to concentrate on the Balance isue before nerfing anything more. The defensive meta is just ridiculus. nerfing More thing that input damage onley will feed them. This game fuctions as a hole not seperated. So no quik fix nonsens your not fooling anyone.

Anybody in there right mind can almost block a zone attack every time on PC.

Balance in this game has more priority then keep nerfing the dps classes.

If UBISOFT can't fix the framrate isue they need to tell that to the console players and start taking responsibillity of making seperate balancing patches that fiths the 30 fps.

Knight_Raime
04-29-2017, 07:52 PM
warlord, bushi, and zerker's zones are all slow enough that even console players react to them decently often.
Warden, pk, and orochi's zones are all unsafe on block. Well. warden and pk's are. I'm 90% sure orochi's is as well.
I think they are balanced as is. Other ZA's from other hero's not named here should be brought up though since they are not really useful.

Hillbill79
04-29-2017, 08:06 PM
Wardens is too fast for that size of blade..... Its only the wardens I would alter, and then only drop the speed by 20% or so.

Orochis is easily readable if you watch the guy, not the indicator.

Nobuhsi... the second hit/bleed from it, is easily parryable and most damage comes from that.

Oupyz
04-29-2017, 09:23 PM
pk,warden are unsafe on block

orochi sadlly hhe is safe , he shouldn't be though with that fast zone attack

JonnySparta
04-29-2017, 11:08 PM
I just wish the ZA's didn't flash different directions THAT is really.. idk, I really don't like that

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05-05-2017, 06:05 PM
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kweassa1917
05-05-2017, 06:10 PM
I just wish the ZA's didn't flash different directions THAT is really.. idk, I really don't like that

Which is why the forced stance change should be implemented. Solves stupid 1-button 50/50 problems, solves flicker problems, and still doesn't nerf the speed of the ZA attack itself.

Brologna_Xeno
05-05-2017, 06:42 PM
The speed of Nobushi's ZA depends on where you're standing relative to her and in which direction she is ZAing.

If you're standing in front of the Nobushi and she's ZAing while facing you, yeah it's plenty counterable.

But if you're standing on her right flank (4-5 o clock) and she ZAs towards an opponent directly in front of her, you can get hit with damn near instant damage and with no visible contact (the animation is just beginningt).

The AOE arc needs to expand outwards from the origin as it spirals around, not just start at max range and rotate. Look at Kensei ZA by comparison. Otherwise avoid her right flank or stay in left guard direction while there when you got her outnumbered.