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A.K.Davis
01-21-2004, 10:38 PM

A.K.Davis
01-21-2004, 10:38 PM

A.K.Davis
01-22-2004, 09:24 AM
bump

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

IVJG51_Dart
01-22-2004, 09:36 AM
Where's the choice for: "Padlock sucks, I'm glad to see less of it!"? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Just being a smart a$$ here AKD, so no offense meant. But I am glad to see less of it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lawn Dart
Operations Officer IV/JG51
www.jg51.net (http://www.jg51.net)

"You fight like you train."
- Motto, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School (TOPGUN)

HomeboyWu
01-22-2004, 09:41 AM
Quite agree, Davis. Only I don't know which to vote http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Huxley_S
01-22-2004, 10:06 AM
I've never used Padlock... I've been using the hat switch to look around instead.

The truth is I don't understand the padlock function at all... any advice or links on using it?

XyZspineZyX
01-22-2004, 10:27 AM
I think the padlock yes/no issue isn't nearly as "pressing" as the icon issue, to be honest.

I used to be very anti-padlock. As a guy who started in Warbirds, where they had no crutches for getting your views, I learned how to use a hat switch. Here, I hear much whining about how hard a skill that is supposed to be to acquire, but how hard is it to learn to twitch your thumb? It's NOT that hard, it CAN be learned...only, with instant solutions like padlock so popular, it's no wonder fewer people bother to develop hat skills.

But, as I learned more about it, I came to the conclusion that, with a few reservations (the acquisition radar "spider sense"), padlock is a decent simulation of human visual tracking. I don't mind if people use it, I always allow it as an option in any server I host, but I don't use it myself, ever.

Padlock is a dangerous thing to put all your Situational Awareness stock into. Padlock is an excellent FIXATION simulator, and I take advantage of that in fights all the time. If you end up in a scissors with me, you better have some hat skills, or I'm gonna end up low and behind you where padlock is broken, and God help you then. I always love to pull this off, and watch the padlock user twist and turn in front of me (likely while stabbing his radar key and hoping for a "lock"), while I munch a sandwich and move in for the fat cannon burst that will seal his doom. If you have decent hat skills, you can track a bogie who's moving through almost your entire rear arc as you cross each other's flight paths. The padlock user, however, can be left dazed and confused in a scissors if he has no backup visual acquisition skill.

====================================
I think the proliferation of "no cockpit" servers is the worst blight on the online community. I'll hold my nose and go into a server with some arcade settings (if I'm really bored and there's nothing else to do), but one setting I will NEVER subject myself to is a WonderWoman server. I know it will be full of no-skill head-on artists scoring critical hit damage on impossible "below the nose shots" courtesy of the no-cockpit view. No thanks.

The other side of the coin is the "hairshirt difficulty" server. It's tantalizingly close to what I want, but set up so that nobody can see anything. I often burn through entire tanks of petrol roaming around (how *dare* I get 3 or 4km of alt before looking for trouble??), unable to see anything until I get down in the weeds, and overcommit, blowing all my stored energy. Especially if it's Finland or Normandy, the two worst maps for visibility in a no-icon setting.

A.K.Davis
01-22-2004, 10:51 AM
yes, but icons are fully adjustable by the host Stiglr. Icons are not so much a game code issue as a preference issue.

And I didn't include a "Padlock sucks" option because I'm sure there are many who don't use padlock and would be very happy if it was totally denied to others, especially if it gave them an edge. That's not the point. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And as far as "thumb-hat skill" goes, this is too highly dependent on hardware and physical issues to be considered a true skill, where proficiency is determined solely by level of experience. The fact that it has nothing to do with real flying or air combat makes it all the more ridiculous to discuss in my view.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

[This message was edited by A.K.Davis on Thu January 22 2004 at 10:05 AM.]

PF_Mark
01-22-2004, 11:29 AM
My problem with hatching is my system stutters or skips which makes it hard to use. This is not a skill as a system problem? I have a 1.2 gig AMD with 768 megs and ti 4400 vc system and I am using a MS FFB stick. Padlock does not lock up like this. If I could get hatch to work or buy Track IR then I would.

PF_Mark
01-22-2004, 11:41 AM
Just testing sig.

http://www.artjunky.com/phantomfighters/

Saburo_0
01-22-2004, 11:50 AM
Nice Poll Mr Davis!

I don't use padlock myself much -don't know what button it is but think it is great for scissors. it's nice not to have to hold the hat one way while turning the other & trying to drop a notch of flaps adjust throttle etc. Plus the fluidity of view gives a really marvelous sense of what scissors is all about & how a pilot has to twist his head around to follow the bad guy!
I haven't got used to padlock because it is seldom available & then i'd have to listen to some loser call me names for using it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
having said that I would not mind someone else using it, tho do think range should be limited to keep as many as possible happy.

I didn't realize there are problems with breaking padlock or using the look forward view to track in clouds. Being able to hide in clouds is VERY FUN so would like that to be fixed.
I think the loudest anit-padlock people are just a wee bit bent. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Calling it a crutch is silly. 1st time i tried padlock in EAW it completely disoriented me & I had to learn how to fly with it instead of the key pad. then i got an 8 way hat switch & had to learn to use that. (None of these are real world skills)

i can't imagine saying that someone beat me in a dogfight because he used padlock, & that without it I would have beaten him! That's just silly. Except for the cloud thing, but clouds online are a frame rate prob too I think.
Also tracking bogies is made much easier by a good machine that can handle high graphics settings.

XyZspineZyX
01-22-2004, 12:09 PM
I'll freely admit that "hat skills" are a pure game skill, not a "piloting skill".

My reasoning is, although it's as artificial as the next view system, it DOES allow the USER to control where he looks, and for how long.

I just think you're asking for trouble to have the sim do that for you. Visuals are just too high a percentage of the fight to allow them to "happen automatically". I also feel that relying on the sim to do the spotting for you hinders your development as a (virtual) pilot, because you're not *thinking* about it.

To keep good SA, you must be CONSTANTLY making threat assesments, guesses on relative energy states, managing your own fixation, etc., etc., etc. And not just for you and the bogie in front of you...it's your wingman, your bogie's wingman, the flight that's diving in to help one side or the other, the all-important bomber box that's getting away to the southeast...It's a HUGE part of the overall challenge. This is why I feel one must have control over his virtual eyes at all times.

No view system, whether hat switch, Track IR, mouseview, padlock or probably even VR glasses are going to create a 100% realistic cockpit viewpoint. They're all going to have their plusses and minuses. For me, the operative factor is CONTROL. The sight's more than half of the fight, and you don't fight and maneuver on "autopilot"; so why should you look in autopilot?

tagert
01-22-2004, 12:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
FB online play has apparently reached a turning point. There are now virtually no servers running with realistic settings (i.e. no externals and cockpit on) with padlock. I believe this has left a significant number of players who prefer padlock for a number of reasons (hardware, physical, etc.) in the lurch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This would be great news! If it was only true... I still see the majority of of HL servers with padlock enabled.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
My perception is that the community has turned in mass against padlock partially because of realism concerns, but more because of competition. The realism or lack-of-realism in padlock is not a clear cut issue, with as many pro-realism arguments as con-realism arguments for it's conclusion. What is clear is that many believe that padlock gives others an advantage that they will not have if they choose not to use padlock. There is both a rational and irrational component to this bias. I will outline the basic current status of padlock and possible solutions. Please cast your poll vote after reading:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It is totally based on realism concerns. Disabling padlock makes the playing field even.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Pro-padlock:
1. smooth, natural panning independent of players hardware (Track IR or graphic performance, especially over certain terrains). This is one of the most significant aspects of padlock. It keeps the playing field level.

2. realistic head movement without intermediate input from hands or head, especially during close in engagements where in real life only the human eye can respond to the rapidity of movement

3. In combination with snap view forward, overcomes the unnatural blindspots created by canopy frames. In real life, a bandit could be continuously tracked if it passed behind framing through binocular vision or by simply moving the head a few inches.

4. Aids in formation flying by allowing quick and natural glances from wingmen to instruments.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>All true...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Con-padlock:
1. Distance allows for unnatural spotting (the radar effect). This issue seems simple on the surface, but is more complex. The reality is anyone who relys on padlock to spot enemies at 3km is putting themselves at a serious disadvantage. Likewise, anyone who maintains padlock on distanst enemies is going to ruin their situational awareness. In the end, someone who abuses padlock this way only hurts themselves, and an experienced player who uses padlock will inevitably spot enemies outside of padlock range and only use padlock during close-in fights. Padlock distance is more or less a non-issue, but one which changing would not hurt anyone.

2. Snap view forward maintains padlock in situations where it should break, especially troublesome with preventing players from escaping into clouds. This is the most serious problem with padlock.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You forgot a few CONS and got the first one wrong. First the ones you forgot

3. Maitains a lock even when you can not see the aircraft. Examples of this are light colored aircraft that are above you that blend in with the sky, and dark colored aircraft, when at tree top level, will blend in with the ground... Padlock will maintain the lock and move with the aircraft so you can keep moving with it... even if you dont see it at that moment.. and if necessay you can apply the Snap View Forawd cheat here too.

4. Target box. On some servers they leave the target box enabled, which really helps out alot for the situations I mentioned in 3.

Expanding on your number 2. the Snap View Forward can be used to cheat in more ways than clouds, or canopy bars that block your view. Many 109 pilots use it for BnZ tatics. What they do is padlock a guy... then use the Snap View Forward key while they climb... and now they can climb with no regards to trying to maitan a visual on the target.. very unreal.. then once they have zoomed way up.. flip over, release the Snap View Forward key and WHAAAM! They have found the bogie they locked up 3 min ago during their zoom climb... No need to scan the horzon, or look left and right... ie NO NEED TO APPLY TRUE S.A. tatics... Thus enableing them to do unrealistic boom and zoom tatics.

Correcting you errors in number 1. The thing your dancing around here and not saying is that padlock will find the target for you... even if you can not see it... What they do afteward.. well you can twist that around and try and make it look like the person is only hurting them selfs... and maybe some people are that dumb.. but finding the target is MORE THAN HALF THE BATTLE!! Once again NO NEED TO APPLY TRUE S.A. tatics... No need to bank and turn and look and check six.. No need to look twice.. or three times at that dark spot below you to insure it is just a dark spot in the trees and not a enmy ac climbing up to you.. Just press padlock.. if it locks.. you got one there... somwhere.. now look harder.. if it does not lock.. then it was just a dark tree or something.

All in all padlock mimics smooth head movments and thus is realistic... but all the other aspects of padlock make SA not necessary.. And it shows in the way people fly, and makes for a less than realistic feel, becaue people dont fly with real SA in mind.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Now what can be done to improve padlock:

1. First and foremost, snap view forward must not prevent padlock from breaking in situations where it would normally break, including clouds and full black-out. In conjunction with this, canopy bars should not cause padlock to break, thus eliminating the need to use snap view forward in thus situation. Obviously, because of disorientation, some form of snap view forward is necessary. If a player holds down snap view forward and the enemy passes out of normal viewing limits for more than a few seconds, padlock should break and your view should remain forward.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If padlock didnt break during the points where the ac is blocked by the canopy bar.. that would give the padlock users a big adv over non-padlock users... A non-padlock user has to manuver his plane to MAINTAIN SA on the bogie as he goes behind the cockpit bars... The break of padlock forces padlock users to do the same.. So NO dont make padlock maintain lock while behind the canopy bars. To fix the Snap Foward View problem simply put the same time limit on the Snap Forward View. The Snap Forward View is SUPOSE TO BE USED to get your bearings quick... You dont and should not be using it for an extended period of time.. So put a time limit on it... And both time limits are running.. if the bogie is behind a cockpit bar, and you hit Snap View Forward to get your bearings instead of manuvering you aircraft to maintian sight on the bogie.. well the timmer is running, dont expect padlock to be there when you come back from Snap Forward View.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
2. Tie padlock limits to the wide view rather than the normal view. Padlock often breaks on enemies in the 5 o'clock, 7 o'clock and 6 o'clock high positions that are in plain view to the player, apparently because they have reached the edge of the normal field of vision. There is no reason padlock should break on an enemy you can clearly see, and the fact that it does leads to excessive use of snap view forward.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
3. Limit padlock distance to what can be defined as "close-in" or "dog-fighting" distance. Possibly 1.5-1km. This would prevent padlock from being used for spotting, but would still allow it's use in the situations it is most needed (for example, a scissors fight where the enemy and your aircraft are rapidly changing position and thumb-hat tracking cannot keep up). Or at least allow the server to set the distance much the same way icon distance can be changed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%

TAGERT

tagert
01-22-2004, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
And as far as "thumb-hat skill" goes, this is too highly dependent on hardware and physical issues to be considered a true skill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hardware and Physical issues? Huh? Ok, let me guess... by hardware you saying joysticks with HAT keys? That might be true 5 years ago where the typical joystick didnt have a hat.. but now days you would be hard pressed to find a joystick that didnt have a hat... As for physical issues... I can not even begin to guess at what your implying there.. Please expand/explain both in more detail.

TAGERT

tagert
01-22-2004, 12:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
I'll freely admit that "hat skills" are a pure game skill, not a "piloting skill".

My reasoning is, although it's as artificial as the next view system, it DOES allow the USER to control where he looks, and for how long.

I just think you're asking for trouble to have the sim do that for you. Visuals are just too high a percentage of the fight to allow them to "happen automatically". I also feel that relying on the sim to do the spotting for you hinders your development as a (virtual) pilot, because you're not *thinking* about it.

To keep good SA, you must be CONSTANTLY making threat assesments, guesses on relative energy states, managing your own fixation, etc., etc., etc. And not just for you and the bogie in front of you...it's your wingman, your bogie's wingman, the flight that's diving in to help one side or the other, the all-important bomber box that's getting away to the southeast...It's a HUGE part of the overall challenge. This is why I feel one must have control over his virtual eyes at all times.

No view system, whether hat switch, Track IR, mouseview, padlock or probably even VR glasses are going to create a 100% realistic cockpit viewpoint. They're all going to have their plusses and minuses. For me, the operative factor is CONTROL. The sight's more than half of the fight, and you don't fight and maneuver on "autopilot"; so why should you look in autopilot?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agree 100%

TAGERT

WB_Outlaw
01-22-2004, 02:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tagert:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
And as far as "thumb-hat skill" goes, this is too highly dependent on hardware and physical issues to be considered a true skill<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hardware and Physical issues? Huh? Ok, let me guess... by hardware you saying joysticks with HAT keys? That might be true 5 years ago where the typical joystick didnt have a hat.. but now days you would be hard pressed to find a joystick that didnt have a hat... As for physical issues... I can not even begin to guess at what your implying there.. Please expand/explain both in more detail.

TAGERT<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The physical issues are pretty obvious. If you have small hands or limited movement in thumb/fingers, then you may not be as effective using a hat as others. I don't have a problem with the TM Cougar (the 8-way hat on the throttle plus the pinky on the stick is what I use for views) but I did have to replace the stock 18lb springs due to my carpel tunnel syndrome.

Disabling padlock does not make the field more even. It only evens it up if it was enabled for some and disabled for others. Just because one choses not to use padlock does not mean that those who use it are making things uneven. If you get invited to a gun fight and show up with nothing but a knife, that's your problem. Use padlock to locate a target and then track manually if you don't like the feel of padlock. Note that I am not debating the realism of padlock, just the comment that disabling it somehow evens out the playing field.

-Outlaw.

A.K.Davis
01-22-2004, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
I'll freely admit that "hat skills" are a pure game skill, not a "piloting skill".

My reasoning is, although it's as artificial as the next view system, it DOES allow the USER to control where he looks, and for how long.

I just think you're asking for trouble to have the sim do that for you. Visuals are just too high a percentage of the fight to allow them to "happen automatically". I also feel that relying on the sim to do the spotting for you hinders your development as a (virtual) pilot, because you're not *thinking* about it.

To keep good SA, you must be CONSTANTLY making threat assesments, guesses on relative energy states, managing your own fixation, etc., etc., etc. And not just for you and the bogie in front of you...it's your wingman, your bogie's wingman, the flight that's diving in to help one side or the other, the all-important bomber box that's getting away to the southeast...It's a HUGE part of the overall challenge. This is why I feel one must have control over his virtual eyes at all times.

No view system, whether hat switch, Track IR, mouseview, padlock or probably even VR glasses are going to create a 100% realistic cockpit viewpoint. They're all going to have their plusses and minuses. For me, the operative factor is CONTROL. The sight's more than half of the fight, and you don't fight and maneuver on "autopilot"; so why should you look in autopilot?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but Stiglr the sim does all sorts of things for you that you would have to do yourself in real life. For example, you have to exert no actual force to pull out of a high speed dive. The force is exerted "automatically" for you by the sim. Now I suppose we could make this realistic by purchasing sticks that actually require full force to move and then spend a few hours working in the gym each day to condition ourselves.

But, like I said, the point here is not thumb-hat vs. padlock. It's restoring padlock to a state where players who wish to use it can be allowed to do so in online games, thus leveling the playing field.

And as you rightly point out, regardless of changes made, anyone who overly relies on padlock will always put themselves at a disadvantage. If anything, this is an argument for just leaving padlock on.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
01-22-2004, 02:58 PM
AK Davis wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For example, you have to exert no actual force to pull out of a high speed dive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Evidently, you neither:

1) fly 109s or
2) Fly with a Cougar joystick

I do both. Believe me, I build up some serious reps hauling overspeeding Gustavs out of dives! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

True, I don't have to exert 75 - 100 lbs of stick force and use two hands and a well-placed foot.... but I'm not spinning one of those Microsoft "whippy sticks" across its full throw in half a second, either!!

Huxley_S
01-22-2004, 03:06 PM
Hey Stiglr, Re your first post... I thought as much. Cheers for the confirmation. And I look forward to future combat.

tagert
01-22-2004, 03:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
The physical issues are pretty obvious. If you have small hands or limited movement in thumb/fingers, then you may not be as effective using a hat as others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Small hands and smell like cabbage... PLEASE! I would hate to think we have to hinder the majority for the minorty! ESPICALLY when you consder the fact that the sim provides you with other choices to move the view.. mouse, TrackIR, NewView, etc. None of which will find the target for you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
I don't have a problem with the TM Cougar (the 8-way hat on the throttle plus the pinky on the stick is what I use for views) but I did have to replace the stock 18lb springs due to my carpel tunnel syndrome.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Carper Tunnel! Does your insurance agent know you are partaking in such things that could make your syndrome worse? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
Disabling padlock does not make the field more even.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Disagree 100%! When disabled you have to move your view around manually and find the targets yourself.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
It only evens it up if it was enabled for some and disabled for others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Huh? Hardly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
Just because one choses not to use padlock does not mean that those who use it are making things uneven.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It does.. but that is only one aspect of the problem.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
If you get invited to a gun fight and show up with nothing but a knife, that's your problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So you admit a gun is better than a knife? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
Use padlock to locate a target and then track manually if you don't like the feel of padlock.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Like I said, the FINDING is only one part of the problem... The next part is related to the first, the fact that you rely on padlock to find the targets means you dont have to fly and apply SA in a realistic manor. Thus effecting the whole atmopher of the server.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
Note that I am not debating the realism of padlock, just the comment that disabling it somehow evens out the playing field.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Roger, and I disagree with you. In a nut shell the servers dont disable it becuse they think the fluid motion of padlock is unrealistic... they disable it because padlock can find targets for you... And track targets for you that others in the same situation could not track (ie clouds, ground clutter, etc) on top of that due to the Snap Forward View cheat it makes the later ever wose.

TAGERT

A.K.Davis
01-22-2004, 03:58 PM
1. 3km is a bit late to be spotting targets. However, limiting the distance is no problem as padlock's real value is realistically tracking targets at close range.

2. Spotting and tracking targets is highly dependent on hardware. That in a no padlock environment, the players with Track IR and/or very powerful graphics systems have a decided advantage is undeniable. Though padlock has issues, it is at least available to everyone to use or not use as they see fit. This thread is about what can be done to right some of those issues.

3. I have carpal tunnel syndrome. Use of the joystick and throttle is a fairly natural motion that does not aggravate CTS. In fact, alternative mouse devices for people with CTS are basically joysticks. Constant, rapid thumb motion, however, is very aggravating to the nerve running through your wrist. Casually scanning the sky is not really a problem, but using your thumb to track a bandit at .5km can be very troublesome.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

tagert
01-22-2004, 04:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
1. 3km is a bit late to be spotting targets. However, limiting the distance is no problem .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No problem? It is hard coded, ie not a server setting, so that is a problem IMHO.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
as padlock's real value is realistically tracking targets at close range<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
2. Spotting and tracking targets is highly dependent on hardware.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
That in a no padlock environment, the players with Track IR and/or very powerful graphics systems have a decided advantage is undeniable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Disagree 100%! Track IR provides no more viewing area, and actually takes some getting use to... As for POWERFUL GRAHICS SYSTEMS... you wont belive this, but they are actually at a DISADVANTAGE!! YES!! DISADVANTAGE! How you ask? Because the better vid card allows one to run the game at a higher resolution at say 30fps where a less powerfull vid card would have to run at a lower resolution to obtain 30fps... PROBLEM is at lower resolutions the enmy aircraft at a distance >3km appear as a dot... at lower resoltuions the DOT is BIGGER and even the COLOR is not blended as well therefore EASIER TO SPOT THE BOGIE on CHEAPER SYSTEMS!! That is the advantage is to the ones with the cheaper video cards.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Though padlock has issues, it is at least available to everyone to use or not use as they see fit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>True.. as are the server options, they are available to every server to use or not use as they see fit. And alot of them see fit to disable PADLOCK. As a mater of fact the default when you select FULL-REAL (ie FULL DIFUCULTY) is to turn padlock off.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
This thread is about what can be done to right some of those issues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Simple, pull the range (1km) in that padlock can lock onto something and put a time limit on the Snap View Forward key.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
3. I have carpal tunnel syndrome. Use of the joystick and throttle is a fairly natural motion that does not aggravate CTS. In fact, alternative mouse devices for people with CTS are basically joysticks. Constant, rapid thumb motion, however, is very aggravating to the nerve running through your wrist. Casually scanning the sky is not really a problem, but using your thumb to track a bandit at .5km can be very troublesome.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Get the CH PRO THROTTLE it has a mini-stick on it that can act like the mouse... or better yet get the TrackIR system, it does not get more real then TrackIR!! All the fluid motions of padlock with none of the cheats

TAGERT

A.K.Davis
01-22-2004, 05:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tagert:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
1. 3km is a bit late to be spotting targets. However, limiting the distance is no problem .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No problem? It is hard coded, ie not a server setting, so that is a problem IMHO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I mean I don't think anyone will be seriously concerned if Oleg reduced the hard-coded range, or made it a host setting.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
as padlock's real value is realistically tracking targets at close range<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
2. Spotting and tracking targets is highly dependent on hardware.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agreed 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
That in a no padlock environment, the players with Track IR and/or very powerful graphics systems have a decided advantage is undeniable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Disagree 100%! Track IR provides no more viewing area, and actually takes some getting use to... As for POWERFUL GRAHICS SYSTEMS... you wont belive this, but they are actually at a DISADVANTAGE!! YES!! DISADVANTAGE! How you ask? Because the better vid card allows one to run the game at a higher resolution at say 30fps where a less powerfull vid card would have to run at a lower resolution to obtain 30fps... PROBLEM is at lower resolutions the enmy aircraft at a distance >3km appear as a dot... at lower resoltuions the DOT is BIGGER and even the COLOR is not blended as well therefore EASIER TO SPOT THE BOGIE on CHEAPER SYSTEMS!! That is the advantage is to the ones with the cheaper video cards.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[/quote]

We're talking about ranges less than 3km here (and even less than that if padlock range were to be reduced). At this range "spotting the dot" is less important than being able to smoothly track a bandit. A more powerful system has a decided advantage here, being able to maintain consistent FPS over any terrain. Please don't delude yourself that flying over urban terrain in the hopes that your opponent will take such a severe FPS hit he won't be able to track you was a legimate WWII tactic.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Though padlock has issues, it is at least available to everyone to use or not use as they see fit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>True.. as are the server options, they are available to every server to use or not use as they see fit. And alot of them see fit to disable PADLOCK. As a mater of fact the default when you select FULL-REAL (ie FULL DIFUCULTY) is to turn padlock off.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
This thread is about what can be done to right some of those issues.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Simple, pull the range (1km) in that padlock can lock onto something and put a time limit on the Snap View Forward key.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It seems you see my point.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
3. I have carpal tunnel syndrome. Use of the joystick and throttle is a fairly natural motion that does not aggravate CTS. In fact, alternative mouse devices for people with CTS are basically joysticks. Constant, rapid thumb motion, however, is very aggravating to the nerve running through your wrist. Casually scanning the sky is not really a problem, but using your thumb to track a bandit at .5km can be very troublesome.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Get the CH PRO THROTTLE it has a mini-stick on it that can act like the mouse... or better yet get the TrackIR system, it does not get more real then TrackIR!! All the fluid motions of padlock with none of the cheats

TAGERT<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, not everyone will be able to purchase $100+ of hardware just to stay competitive. Not a solution to the basic problem.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

BfHeFwMe
01-22-2004, 05:40 PM
I'd argue padlock doesn't simulate naturla head movement at all. POV moves, but head? There's no head movement at all or the strut obstruction wouldn't be such a problem.

My biggest gripe is with the external views enables the external padlock is the single biggest radar cheat in the game. No way your ever going to get the jump on anyone with both turned on. It locks any bandit within at least 5 Km regardless of direction or altitude from the current POV. It ruins coop missions every time, no one wants to play without externals so they can watch once downed. You either play these rediculous radar coops, or play alone.

A.K.Davis
01-22-2004, 07:17 PM
well, externals in general ruin any chance of surprise.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

WB_Outlaw
01-22-2004, 08:17 PM
Tagert,
The original post specifically related "physical issues" to "thumb-hat skill". Even the availability of a fifty cent neural interface that feeds the optic nerves a fully 3-d 8 billion x 8 billion pixel view and tracks head movement down to the nano-unit of motion has no bearing on the initial comment.

"...they disable it because padlock can find targets for you... And track targets for you that others in the same situation could not track (ie clouds, ground clutter, etc)..."

How is it possible for the above to occur? If padlock is enabled, then it is enabled for EVERYONE. THERE IS NO ONE IN A DIFFERENT SITUATION THAN ANYONE ELSE.

By your logic, the player's choice of how to use the available resources allowed by the server is what determines if the game is even or not. Therefore, if a pilot chooses to take-off with no ammo and refuses to raise the gear and flaps, then that game is now uneven.

If choosing not to use padlock when it is enabled makes the game uneven, then choosing to use a joystick, or rudder pedals, or a better video card, or a faster cpu, or a larger monitor, etc. while some don't, also makes the game uneven and the option to do so should be removed. All players should be required to use the keyboard only for input, the game should detect the monitor size and adjust the display to be no larger than that of a 14" monitor, and the resolution, color depth and framerate should be limited to that of the absolute minimum system that the game will run on.

Regardless of how ANY SETTING affects game play, realism, immersion, situational awareness, the planets, or the result of the next American Idol, none of them make the game uneven because all settings apply to all players.


-Outlaw.

tagert
01-22-2004, 08:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
We're talking about ranges less than 3km here (and even less than that if padlock range were to be reduced). At this range "spotting the dot" is less important than being able to smoothly track a bandit. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Disagree 100%! Spoting the dot is half the battle! Knowing if that dark something down in the trees is an aircraft is important.. seeing the light colored aircraft up in the blue is important.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
A more powerful system has a decided advantage here, being able to maintain consistent FPS over any terrain. Please don't delude yourself that flying over urban terrain in the hopes that your opponent will take such a severe FPS hit he won't be able to track you was a legimate WWII tactic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I should just disregard your example like you did mine, difference is I have an answer for yours, thus I will address it. Don't play down the bigger dot due to lower resolution... or should I say don't delude yourself into thinking that good SA and spoting the target is not important. As for FPS taking a hit, if you have a cheap vid card at a lesser resolution the FPS will be near that of a expensive vid card at a higher resolution. Your claim would come into play if you set the cheap card to the same higher resolution as the expensive card.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
It seems you see my point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sort of, I agree the range should be reduced and that the Snap Forward View should be *fixed* and by fixed I mean a time limit on it too.. But I don't see your point in allowing padlock to remain locked while the cockpit obstructs the view.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Sorry, not everyone will be able to purchase $100+ of hardware just to stay competitive. Not a solution to the basic problem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry but no sale! This flight sim stuff is NOT a cheap hobbies... Never Was, and most likely Never will be. On the scale of things price wise that $100.00 is about the cheapest things you would buy to play a flight sim... Not to mention the cost of the PC itself... I love these people that spend $350.00+ on a joystick, rudders and throttle and then scoff at the idea of TrackIR.. Most folks that are into flight sims... and by into it I don't mean hard core.. but into it enough to waist time in their lifes to come to a web sight and talk about it realize that price comparison.

TAGERT

tagert
01-22-2004, 09:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
Tagert, The original post specifically related "physical issues" to "thumb-hat skill". Even the availability of a fifty cent neural interface that feeds the optic nerves a fully 3-d 8 billion x 8 billion pixel view and tracks head movement down to the nano-unit of motion has no bearing on the initial comment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah.. Ok, Ill take your word for it.. In that I dont know what the H your talking about! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
How is it possible for the above to occur? If padlock is enabled, then it is enabled for EVERYONE. THERE IS NO ONE IN A DIFFERENT SITUATION THAN ANYONE ELSE.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ill say it again, the servers disable padlock because it can find targets for you... And track targets for you that others in the same situation could not track (ie clouds, ground clutter, etc)... I was not saying some could and some could not, Just that some choose not to rely on padlock and like to do the work themselfs... Which is also one of the driving reason some servers disable padlock... The other is the Snap View Forward cheat in padlock.. See these same people are typically the ones that pride themselves on using good tactics and not a cheat.. So they wouldn't use padlock even if it was enabled.. Sense it is their server, they are looking for like minded people. One way to insure everyone lives up to that standard is to disable it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
By your logic, the player's choice of how to use the available resources allowed by the server is what determines if the game is even or not. Therefore, if a pilot chooses to take-off with no ammo and refuses to raise the gear and flaps, then that game is now uneven.

If choosing not to use padlock when it is enabled makes the game uneven, then choosing to use a joystick, or rudder pedals, or a better video card, or a faster cpu, or a larger monitor, etc. while some don't, also makes the game uneven and the option to do so should be removed. All players should be required to use the keyboard only for input, the game should detect the monitor size and adjust the display to be no larger than that of a 14" monitor, and the resolution, color depth and framerate should be limited to that of the absolute minimum system that the game will run on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not my logic, just your misinterpreting of what I said.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
Regardless of how ANY SETTING affects game play, realism, immersion, situational awareness, the planets, or the result of the next American Idol, none of them make the game uneven because all settings apply to all players.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Never said they didn't.

TAGERT

JG77_Tintin
01-23-2004, 05:31 AM
I pretty much agree with A.K.Davis. I've been using padlock since the 1942 Pacific Air War and am comfortable with it, but am hopeless with the mouse. Do agree that it's range should be reduced to cut the radar affect, but please bear in mind that looking at a monitor and out of an actual plane are "chalk and cheese". While there are arguments for realisim, I find it amusing that most servers I see these days attempting full realism with the padlock off still have the icons on. Even in it's limited form of icons only for friendly makes it so much easier to sort out who is friend and who is foe. Worse, sometimes externals are also on. Quite like the idea of examining the target from inside the cockpit and discerning aircraft characteristics. Thats where markings, colouration and aircraft identification skills come to the fore. Try no icons in the Finish Campaign, with the similarity of the Brewster to the I-16. Not *****ing about it though, but because I prefer padlock, when in these servers, I never try to dogfight or turn with the enemy. Is strictly one pass and away. Just have to work on my deflection shooting now. More 109 flying and never on the Polikarpovs without padlock or bombers if icons are on. With icons enabled, the suprise element for ambush situations (historically most kills) is much reduced and it also makes flying bombers suicidal once you have completed your attack run.

WB_Outlaw
01-23-2004, 06:50 AM
Tagert,
Have you tried reading a post before replying? Do you read what you post? Please note that those are rhetorical questions and require no answer. None of my posts ever debated the realism of padlock. I even specifically stated that. The only argument I ever made about padlock was concerning the "evenness" of enabling it. An even playing field (in our case that is the server and it's settings) is one that lends the same resources to all players. Unless you disagree on the definition of an even playing field...well, nevermind.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tagert:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
The physical issues are pretty obvious. If you have small hands or limited movement in thumb/fingers, then you may not be as effective using a hat as others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Small hands and smell like cabbage... PLEASE! I would hate to think we have to hinder the majority for the minorty! ESPICALLY when you consder the fact that the sim provides you with other choices to move the view.. mouse, TrackIR, NewView, etc. None of which will find the target for you.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
Disabling padlock does not make the field more even.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Disagree 100%! When disabled you have to move your view around manually and find the targets yourself.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
It only evens it up if it was enabled for some and disabled for others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Huh? Hardly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
Just because one choses not to use padlock does not mean that those who use it are making things uneven.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It does.. but that is only one aspect of the problem.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
Note that I am not debating the realism of padlock, just the comment that disabling it somehow evens out the playing field.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Roger, and I disagree with you. In a nut shell the servers dont disable it becuse they think the fluid motion of padlock is unrealistic... they disable it because padlock can find targets for you... And track targets for you that others in the same situation could not track (ie clouds, ground clutter, etc) on top of that due to the Snap Forward View cheat it makes the later ever wose.

TAGERT<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

-Outlaw.

WB_Outlaw
01-23-2004, 07:06 AM
Tintin,
I think enabling icons in a "realism" server is almost required if you want players. I rarely see "independents" ever joining servers that have icons disabled. Unless it's an organized event, an icon free server is a low traffic server. At least that's been my experience. Admittedly I only fly online one, maybe two evenings a week so maybe I'm way off base.
I'm in the same boat with you and A.K. (and others) in that externals are a much bigger problem than padlock. There's not much situational awareness required when you can pracatically look through the enemies eyes!!! The sad thing is that disabling externals empties a server faster than disabling icons.
External and icon free servers require carefully designed missions to ensure that there will be a fight and that is what we lack. With no ability to restrict players to the assigned target area (no executions for dereliction of duty), we may never see the missions required


-Outlaw.

TacticalSkirmsh
01-23-2004, 08:13 AM
Instead of entering into a winless debate, let me say that I have started using padlock and really enjoy it.

I am disappointed that almost all UBI servers don't use it. In an almost full realistic setting (cockpit only, no externals, and limited icons) I think it is a nice (and almost realistic) approach to the game.

I agree that the distance and snap view needs work (shouldn't be able to track bandit when he leaves the immediate area/out of reasonable view).

In light of TrackIR, for those of us without such helps, a little less realistic aid should be provided online.

Regards

tagert
01-23-2004, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
Tagert, Have you tried reading a post before replying? Do you read what you post?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You kidding right? I mean not only do I read them, I go to the trouble of quoting each and ever portion of the previous text I'm addressing. Which is not to imply that I don't make mistakes, just that I go to great lengths not to.. much more so then most.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
Please note that those are rhetorical questions and require no answer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Please note that rhetorical or note, when I see that you totally missed my point I feel the need to respond and get you back on track.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
None of my posts ever debated the realism of padlock. I even specifically stated that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
The only argument I ever made about padlock was concerning the "evenness" of enabling it. An even playing field (in our case that is the server and it's settings) is one that lends the same resources to all players. Unless you disagree on the definition of an even playing field...well, nevermind.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Still don't get it huh? I can say it a third time.. but I doubt it will sink in.. So let me try another approach.. The servers goals are a realistic *feel* to the arena... The servers know up front that the use of padlock makes for unrealistic S.A. thus unrealistic flying style, thus unrealistic tactics, thus unrealistic *feel* on the server. They disable padlock to make it an even playing field BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES DO NOT USE PADLOCK and don't want to use it.. thus it would be an uneven playing field if they left padlock enabled because SOME WOULD USE IT.

TAGERT

tagert
01-23-2004, 10:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77_Tintin:
I pretty much agree with A.K.Davis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I do too, padlock is broke in it's current state. If they put a time limit on the Snap View Forward and reduced the range that padlock can aquire a target and in reverse made padlock break once a target went back outside that range, then and only then I think you would see realism servers allow it.. because than and only then would it work like AK Davis explained.. when you up close in a DF.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77_Tintin:
I've been using padlock since the 1942 Pacific Air War and am comfortable with it,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>PAW 1942 was the fist sim to do a real good job of padlock... Falcon 3.0 tried... but it was not as good a PAW... What made PAW better over Falcon 3.0 was PAW didnt need that referance bar at the top, because the cockpit bars provided you a referance to where you were looking. PAW 1942 was ahead of it's time and a ground break sim in so many ways... it was also the first sim to move away from the table based flight models to physic based equations flight models

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77_Tintin:
but am hopeless with the mouse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mouse does blow! But... some seem to like it.. How I will never know.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77_Tintin:
Do agree that it's range should be reduced to cut the radar affect, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agree 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77_Tintin:
but please bear in mind that looking at a monitor and out of an actual plane are "chalk and cheese". While there are arguments for realisim, I find it amusing that most servers I see these days attempting full realism with the padlock off still have the icons on.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Most? I disagree 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77_Tintin:
Even in it's limited form of icons only for friendly makes it so much easier to sort out who is friend and who is foe. Worse, sometimes externals are also on. Quite like the idea of examining the target from inside the cockpit and discerning aircraft characteristics. Thats where markings, colouration and aircraft identification skills come to the fore. Try no icons in the Finish Campaign, with the similarity of the Brewster to the I-16. Not *****ing about it though,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Typically the icons are on in servers that allow all aircraft for either side.. because NOW you can not determine friend or fo by just the aircraft type.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77_Tintin:
but because I prefer padlock, when in these servers, I never try to dogfight or turn with the enemy. Is strictly one pass and away. Just have to work on my deflection shooting now. More 109 flying and never on the Polikarpovs without padlock or bombers if icons are on. With icons enabled, the suprise element for ambush situations (historically most kills) is much reduced and it also makes flying bombers suicidal once you have completed your attack run.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Even the realism servers that do enable icons do it for friendly only and at very very short range.. shorter then the padlock aquire range.

side note.. try greatergreen's servers.. they did the icons right.. friendly only and only when real close.. no padlock.. but you wont find a more realistic feel and find that real per ac tatics being employed. Same is true for the VVS.. but if you want a server that you can just jump into anytime and play, greatergreen is the way to go

TAGERT

BfHeFwMe
01-23-2004, 01:53 PM
For the guy complaining about the time it takes padlock to swing back up front. You can custom set your own timing or eliminate the swing altogether. In your conf.ini file,


[HookView Config]

Speed=500

Try some higher numbers to speed it up. Using a trackIR with this value there is no swing at all, the view moves instantly to where the tir is currently pointed when the lock breaks, there is no forward sweep.

LeadSpitter_
01-23-2004, 03:37 PM
there should be smooth HAT panning like mousecursor control joysticks with the 8 switch hat, alot of other games have it. As for padlock it should be removed from the game completely, dump the cfs2 3 crap and make fb not have noob aids.

Wasteful poll akd it will not change, and i do agree with you about the panning but know you fly padlock only which is worse then pit off to me with the skyscanning locking planes you dont even see by eye or halfway thru clouds shooting at the triangle getting hits.

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
VIEW MY PAINTSCHEMES HERE (http://www.il2skins.com/?planeidfilter=all&planefamilyfilter=all&screenshotfilter=allskins&countryidfilter=all&authoridfilter=%3ALeadspitter%3A&historicalidfilter=all&Submit=+++Apply+filters++&action=list&ts=1072257400)

tagert
01-23-2004, 03:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
there should be smooth HAT panning like mousecursor control joysticks with the 8 switch hat, alot of other games have it. As for padlock it should be removed from the game completely, dump the cfs2 3 crap and make fb not have noob aids.

Wasteful poll akd it will not change, and i do agree with you about the panning but know you fly padlock only which is worse then pit off to me with the skyscanning locking planes you dont even see by eye or halfway thru clouds shooting at the triangle getting hits.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well I agree with just about everything you said... Due to the current state of IL2's padlock... But if they added a time limit to the Snap View Forward key and shortened up the range that padlock can aquire.. and make it break if the tgt exceeds that range after padlocked... Then I wouldnt consider it a cheat anymore... As a mater of fact, as Stiglr pointed out.. it would and could hurt you to use padlock in a tight scissors fight... So, either way, folks that depend on padlock should make every atempt to make it to a 12 step padlock class and get over that crutch! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TAGERT

Recon_609IAP
01-23-2004, 03:58 PM
What is padlock?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

S!
609IAP_Recon

http://www.leeboats.com/609/sig/609_recon3.jpg
Agnus Dei, Qui Tollis peccata mundi, Miserere nobis. Dona nobis pacem

Copperhead310th
01-23-2004, 04:21 PM
My 2 cents....
As long as there is Track IR2 avalkible padlock should be left on for the poor guys that don't have it. It puts them at a major disadvantage where SA is concerned when flying against pilots that have & use track IR.

I'n not Pro Pad lock....
I'm Not Anti TiR.....
but as long as there's tir there should be padlock. In the end it's up to the host.
Our severs will always have PL & ext. with limited icons.

http://imageshack.us/files/380th%20siggy.jpg

tagert
01-23-2004, 06:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
My 2 cents....
As long as there is Track IR2 avalkible padlock should be left on for the poor guys that don't have it. It puts them at a major disadvantage where SA is concerned when flying against pilots that have & use track IR.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Disagree 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
I'n not Pro Pad lock....
I'm Not Anti TiR.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And it shows! l\http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
but as long as there's tir there should be padlock. In the end it's up to the host.
Our severs will always have PL & ext. with limited icons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tell me the name of your servers so I can avoid them! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TAGERT

Snoop_Baron
01-23-2004, 06:33 PM
I tink they should fix the problems with padlock you listed Davis. Especialy the snap-forward problem.

I have TrackIR and don't use padlock. But I always enable padlock on my servers for those that don't have trackIR and use it instead. Some people might exploit it, but I don't want all the guys who don't have TrackIR and like padlock to suffer because of a small bad bunch. Btw, I host with no-externals and cockpit on.

s!
Snoop

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

tagert
01-23-2004, 06:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recon_609IAP:
What is padlock?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is an example...

http://www.wd40.co.uk/media/images/low_Padlock.jpg
And.. I think this might fix the sticky Snap View Forward cheat?

TAGERT

[This message was edited by tagert on Fri January 23 2004 at 05:49 PM.]

A.K.Davis
01-23-2004, 06:38 PM
I've noticed that Snoop Baron, you are one of the few servers that run icons+padlock. Very honourable of you and I will make a point of flying on your server whenever I have the opportunity. S!

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

A.K.Davis
01-23-2004, 06:39 PM
jeez tagert, could you please find a smaller picture of a padlock.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

Snoop_Baron
01-24-2004, 12:28 AM
I'm glad you like the settings m8 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I mainly host on Wednesdays nights and Sunday most of the day. You should find plenty of FI flying on my server at those times especialy on Sunday. I've been working on hosting a "semi-dedicated" server during the rest of the week when I'm not flying online. Once I have everything perfected expect it to be up 90% of the time. (I'm currently working on a program for monitoring the server and updating server stats to my website snoopbaron.com/aircombat).

s!
Snoop
Ps. <vote<nextmap allows you to cycle through maps on the server

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

JG77_Tintin
01-24-2004, 12:34 AM
Just in response to Tagert and Outlaw. I Appreciate your views. To Target, I like Greatergreen and often use it, but still prefer having no icons at all. I do all my flying offline without them and it encourages me to get in closer before letting fly with the guns. Yes Outlaw, I agree with you about the use of servers without icons. Suspect most users want quick action and not spend too much time searching for their prey. As a part time "easy meat" Stuka driver, I want those fighters to earn their potential kill in every way. Takes ages to get to 4000m with 1,000kg of bombs in those things and half the battle is won if I can get to the target without being intercepted. The range of the padlock should be looked at, I need it close dogfight manuvering to simulate the quick movement of my head. On the other hand, is there a possibility that padlock range be extented and used for radar out of the front cone for future nightfighting aircraft? or will the target be shown as an extra icon on the map? Maybe Track IR is the go, but I think I'll opt for a faster computer and internet connection for now amd run my own server. Catch you all latter.

A.K.Davis
01-24-2004, 01:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snoop_Baron:
I'm glad you like the settings m8 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I mainly host on Wednesdays nights and Sunday most of the day. You should find plenty of FI flying on my server at those times especialy on Sunday. I've been working on hosting a "semi-dedicated" server during the rest of the week when I'm not flying online. Once I have everything perfected expect it to be up 90% of the time. (I'm currently working on a program for monitoring the server and updating server stats to my website snoopbaron.com/aircombat).

s!
Snoop
Ps. <vote<nextmap allows you to cycle through maps on the server

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds excellent. I'll try to bring a few MOH'ers along with me when I visit. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

TgD-Sammie
01-24-2004, 01:50 AM
Good discussion here... and I couldn't agree more that padlock needs some adjustments. I think the host should be able to control when padlock engages, and I think there should also be a couple of other options for padlock loss time and track-through-clouds. I think some more control, and padlock would be just fine in any server. Proficient TiR users have the advantage right now on no-padlock servers (not a big one though, imo). Anyway, hopefully, someday, we can get some more features added to its functionality.

Thanks,
Sammie

tagert
01-24-2004, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TgD-Sammie:
Proficient TiR users have the advantage right now on no-padlock servers (not a big one though, imo).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hmmmmm this is like the tenth time I have seen someone say that... and about the tenth time they didn't give any reasoning behind that statement... Can someone explain to me this advantage TrakIR has over the HAT of a joystick.

The viewing area is the same.
The speed is the same, and it not, adj the ini file.
The view is continues from one to the next, i.e. not a snap view.
The both provide feed back as to where you looking, i.e. HAT pressed vs Head position.

Now if you want to tell me that fluid motion of TrackIR is an advantage... then the same is true for PADLOCK vs HAT.

Keep in mind this comparison is between two able bodied people, not someone missing an arm or someone with a neck brace.

TAGERT

XyZspineZyX
01-24-2004, 12:16 PM
This is my opinion only, but I think that the vast majority of TrackIR users *used to* be as padlock-dependant as those who don't have it.

They never learned or mastered hat skills, and like their padlock brethren, think it's some hoodooo "Ancient Chinese secret" type of martial skill that takes ages to learn. Nothing could be further from the truth.

A trackIR engagement might look a bit "smoother" to someone viewing a .trk file, since the movement is more organic, and hat moves produce more linear, choppier transitions...but the point is, there's nowhere a TrackIR user can track that I can't with my hatswitch (unless they make use of that Linda Blair feature that gives them 360 view around the plane). They have "slightly" more control, but it's still dependant on how their calibration is, and how they translate their small head movements to their little "bindi" on their forehead, glasses or baseball cap. I've even heard that TrackIR folks have gotten motion sick while training on using it ??????

Me, I know exactly where my view is at all times, because 1/4 inch thumb movement in any direction is about all you need for a hatswitch. It's not "physically realistic", of course, but it is very intuitive: twitch your thumb in the direction you want to look, and maybe add an "up modifier" with a pinky switch. I can keep perfect SA in a wicked scissors, in a multi-bogie engagement, whatever. When I lose sight of a bogie, it's because I've been bounced GOOD, and I likely wouldn't have seen the enemy if I had TrackIR. I never feel at a visual disadvantage to ANYONE, and I KNOW I have full control of my SA. And, when i blow it and get blasted by an enemy unseen, I know whose fault it is: MINE. No doubts about if the F6 button failed to work, or if a packet got lost in the net traffic. Nope, I wasn't looking and I got sandbagged. Live (die?) and learn.

It took me a little time, years ago, to learn hat skills, but if I recall, I also learned it at a time when I had very little sense of the 3D aerial battle, of energy, of Situational Awareness. So, I was really developing several skills at once.

People don't wanna believe me, but I still say developing hat skills is one of the most valuable lessons you can learn as a virtual pilot. TrackIR is great, if you can afford it, but it's not necessary. Any modern joystick with an 8-way hat (actually, I used to be on a stick with a 4-way hat, and still managed) and an up modifier is all you need to manage your views.

I truly feel that those who rely on padlock are really at the highest disadvantage. They are totally dependant on software to get their views, they can't manage multi-bogie situations well (as padlock is really a FIXATION simulator), and they lack the ability to be effective if the feature is not allowed on a particular server.

Case in point: when I ran my squad, we had a pilot in our squad who was, with padlock enabled, one of the best pilots I've ever seen. He could get 4 kills a mission no sweat, and RTB to tell about it. But, when we had to play "full real" in one of the online wars, his effectiveness and his confidence were more than halved. I am 100% sure he could have developed hat skills if he took the time to do so, since all the rest of his skills were so finely honed. But, because he came from EAW, and that line of boxed game where padlock was always a given to the players, he didn't see the value in bothering with hat skills.

If you have hat skills, SA is never a problem, no matter which sim you happen to find yourself in.

[This message was edited by Stiglr on Sat January 24 2004 at 11:26 AM.]

[This message was edited by Stiglr on Sat January 24 2004 at 11:30 AM.]

tagert
01-24-2004, 03:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> by Stiglr:
This is my opinion only, but I think that the vast majority of TrackIR users *used to* be as padlock-dependant as those who don't have it.

They never learned or mastered hat skills, and like their padlock brethren, think it's some hoodooo "Ancient Chinese secret" type of martial skill that takes ages to learn. Nothing could be further from the truth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmm I Disagree... I don't think *all* TrackIR users are use-to-be padlock depend... Only because that was not the case for me... Most people willing to pay for TrakIR are people who are very into flight sims.. and to be very into flights sims typically means you been into them for some time... I'm going on 10+ years of combat sims and 20+ of flight sims in general

But I do think you did hit on something here... Ill bet the majority of people who complain about not having padlock are the ones that got into flight sim LATE IN THE GAME.. By that I mean they got into it POST padlock. Thus they NEVER took the time to learn the HAT keys like us old trimmers did.. I can remember before padlock and before joystick HAT's all we had was the KEYBOARD to change the views.. I can remember SWOTL and they GREAT thing they did was put the views on the Number Pad instead of the F1, F2, F3... F10 keys.. Which made changing view fast, because you didn't have to look at the keyboard first!!

So, in a round about way I think you have identified the problem.. The people who complain about padlock not being available never spent any real time getting good at the HAT keys on the joystick.. Or they are of a smaller group that has a physical impairment.. be in missing an arm, carpel tunnel, etc.

I see TrackIR as the natural progression of view system control.. I came up through the ranks (i.e. I can remember when we didn't even have joysticks!!) and learned every new way that came out.. to date TrackIR is the best view control.. AND at the same time it really adds to the immersion.. in that you get feedback from your head.. not your thumb deflection!!

And I also agree with you that TrackIR has NO ADVANTAGE over the HAT... As long as you spend a little time with it... but that is true about TrackIR too... All new things take time! Just some are not willing... the "change is bad crowd" they will allways be left behind.. I just hope we can move on fast and far enough to where I don't hear the whine anymore! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TAGERT

TgD-Sammie
01-24-2004, 08:48 PM
The advantage Tagert (and I said it was a small one), is that non-TiR users, which use the hat, have to change their eye position to track a target with every view change. In most cases, this isn't a big deal, but in certain cases it can cause the pilot to lose sight of the aircraft he was tracking. With TiR, you are able to maintain a direct line of sight without any shift in your eyes. IMO, that makes it a little easier.

Important note: I am not saying that TiR users are in any way given an unfair advantage. Quite simply, they put in the effort to purchase a product, available to anyone, and use it. I had it myself but like to move my head too much when I fly, so I sent it to a squad mate. Bottom line is if you're good with TiR, it helps you.

Thanks,
Sammie

tagert
01-24-2004, 11:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TgD-Sammie:
The advantage Tagert (and I said it was a small one), is that non-TiR users, which use the hat, have to change their eye position to track a target with every view change. In most cases, this isn't a big deal, but in certain cases it can cause the pilot to lose sight of the aircraft he was tracking. With TiR, you are able to maintain a direct line of sight without any shift in your eyes. IMO, that makes it a little easier.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah.. ok I see what your saying... no pun intended! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Personally I dont agree with you though.. I would if the HAT transitions were discontines from one view (say forward) to the next (say front left).. that is to say if they did not pan from one to the next.. but they do.

On that note.. using your denintion of an advantage.. then PADLOCK has the same ADVANTAGE over HAT users... I do thank you for at least explaning your definition of advantage.. even though I dont agree with it... it is much Much MUCH more than anyone else ever provided.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TgD-Sammie:
Important note: I am not saying that TiR users are in any way given an unfair advantage. Quite simply, they put in the effort to purchase a product, available to anyone, and use it. I had it myself but like to move my head too much when I fly, so I sent it to a squad mate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL! I have the same problem.. I like to tap my foot sometimes.. and it makes my view jump around!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TgD-Sammie:
Bottom line is if you're good with TiR, it helps you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Bottom line if your good with any view control, it helps you.

TAGERT

J30Vader
01-25-2004, 12:03 AM
I had Carpal tunnel release surgery a year ago. And it still hurts. I won't go into what I am doing about it, as the lawyers don't want me too.

But I can tell you, moving the thumb around on a hat switch hurts after a bit. Hurts alot. And I will not chase dots with a vision of 20/400.

So on the occasion that I run a server, padlock is on.

But the most important reasom as to why it is enabled...............................


Because *I* want it.

tagert
01-25-2004, 12:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J30Vader:
I had Carpal tunnel release surgery a year ago. And it still hurts. I won't go into what I am doing about it, as the lawyers don't want me too.

But I can tell you, moving the thumb around on a hat switch hurts after a bit. Hurts alot. And I will not chase dots with a vision of 20/400.

So on the occasion that I run a server, padlock is on.

But the most important reasom as to why it is enabled...............................

Because *I* want it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As it should be! Options! God love em! Now.. if only the reverse was so well acepted!

TAGERT

x__CRASH__x
01-25-2004, 11:05 AM
AKD, a few points and questions.

I use Padlock when available. But that is becoming less and less. Even MOH has dropped it from FOX's server. I use PL to keep track of my target right in front of me when it disappears behind my canopy frames. (I fly the -109) But I do agree that it can be used to find targets you can't see. Which is why I voted to limit it's distance.

I'm not aware of the snap forward trick you mentioned. I'll have to find you online so you can better explain it to me. I've never heard of this being used. If it's used to hold a target in PL without PL letting it go, then I would vote to dump that. I can't see how that is fair at all.

To Tagert, I have to admit that your point about investing an additional $100 for your hobby is a very good point. With the holidays behind me I am left broke and recovering. But I think my next hobby purchase will either be Track IR, a new motherboard/RAM or BOTH! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)

LeadSpitter_
01-25-2004, 06:56 PM
padlock is more effective then even trackir, with trackir while panning its pretty difficult seeing planes below the horizon or flying near the ground, with PL even if you dont see someone it will lock onto them and is such a giant advantage that it fits into the category or cfs targeting locking aids.

I enjoy FR most or limited friendly icons on for TS and ventrillo issues. If a server has alot of people in it ez or advanced i will join the server, but if padlock is on I wont join it. I think alot of people playing without PL are noticing the advantages of flying with it off. Im extremely happy to see many server turning it off and they are filling up quick rather then the 6-8 while padlocks on.

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
VIEW MY PAINTSCHEMES HERE (http://www.il2skins.com/?planeidfilter=all&planefamilyfilter=all&screenshotfilter=allskins&countryidfilter=all&authoridfilter=%3ALeadspitter%3A&historicalidfilter=all&Submit=+++Apply+filters++&action=list&ts=1072257400)

tagert
01-25-2004, 10:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
padlock is more effective then even trackir, with trackir while panning its pretty difficult seeing planes below the horizon or flying near the ground, with PL even if you dont see someone it will lock onto them and is such a giant advantage that it fits into the category or cfs targeting locking aids.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Agree 100%! And still waiting for all those folks that say TrackIR has an advantage to explane thier reasoning... Guess this is a case of easy to say... hard to back it up

TAGERT

A.K.Davis
01-25-2004, 11:26 PM
BS tagert, no one said TrackIR had an advantage over padlock.

TrackIR most certainly has an advantage over your average thumb-hat setup, however. To say that it doesn't is a true case of easy to say...hard to back it up.

1. Controlling your virtual head movement with your head rather than your thumb. An obvious advantage. There is nothing intuitive about moving your view with your thumb, and it becomes even less intuitive when the same hand is employed in other movements simultaneously. It can be learned, but it is obvious which is more efficient.

2. The advantages of snap views and smooth pan views without multiple controls/keystrokes.

3. Potential exploitation to move view in ways not possible with thumb-hat (is this still possible with TrackIR2?)

In a server with padlock on, would a player decline to abuse padlock? Possibly. I know I don't.

Now in a server with padlock off, might a player with TrackIR decline to use it? Never. They spent $100+, why shouldn't they use it? It's only a minor advantage over using the thumb-hat...

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

LeadSpitter_
01-26-2004, 01:31 AM
Quote AKD
Now in a server with padlock off, might a player with TrackIR decline to use it? Never. They spent $100+, why shouldn't they use it? It's only a minor advantage over using the thumb-hat... a player with TrackIR decline to use it? Never. They spent $100+, why shouldn't they use it? It's only a minor advantage over using the thumb-hat...

Im a previous trackir own and I didnt like it at all, used absolute mode updated drivers it was descently smooth but when you pan you cant see things while moving clearly,

I actually prefer the mouse look control cursor on my trottle over trackir and I actually use my hat switch more because the fixed views are easier to spot low level planes. I do just fine against track ir users. Why dont you spring for trackir2 i heard its much smoother then the original trackir from people who owned both AKD.

And your comment about multiple key strokes is ridiculous, theres what 5 buttons for padlock

friendly plane
friendly ground target
enemy plane
enemy ground target
instant view forward with padlock

But thats why they have the different levels of difficulty Im just glad alot of servers have been turning it off, it makes online play so much better, I find pl servers so much easier if someone sees a plane you know they are locked and dont wave off but continue to follow them, and when your locked you can always crash them into the ground very easily with a split S

So go out and get tir2 davis so you dont need padlock and can fly difficult settings and enjoy it if you think povs are so limited or trottle mouse control cursors.

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
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JG77_Tintin
01-26-2004, 07:27 AM
Would be good to at least loose the bright green triange in padlock. Think I've seen it done in a WW1 Flying Sim a number of years ago. As to what should be a lock distance is for the experts to decide. Gather you can sight or tally an aircraft out to 4km or more, but tracking it is another matter. Would prefer a padlock to only short distance of no more then 1km.

tagert
01-26-2004, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
BS tagert,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Disagree 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
no one said TrackIR had an advantage over padlock.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just to be clear here.. I never said they did say that. What I said is they said TrackIR has an advantage... but they fail to ever explain what that advantage is.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
TrackIR most certainly has an advantage over your average thumb-hat setup,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Disagree 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
however. To say that it doesn't is a true case of easy to say...hard to back it up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Disagree 100%! And if you would bother to read my post you will see that I gave examples to BACKUP my statement.. and it was EASY to do.... i.e..

The viewing area is the same.
The speed is the same, and if not, adj the ini file.
The view is continues from one to the next, i.e. not a snap view.
They both provide feed back as to where you looking, i.e. HAT pressed vs Head position.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
1. Controlling your virtual head movement with your head rather than your thumb. An obvious advantage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Disagree 100%! Because

The viewing area is the same.
The speed is the same, and if not, adj the ini file.
The view is continues from one to the next, i.e. not a snap view.
They both provide feed back as to where you looking, i.e. HAT pressed vs Head position.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
There is nothing intuitive about moving your view with your thumb, and it becomes even less intuitive when the same hand is employed in other movements simultaneously. It can be learned, but it is obvious which is more efficient.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Keep in mind here the original statement is about ADVANTAGES not EFFICIENCY.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
2. The advantages of snap views and smooth pan views without multiple controls/keystrokes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Again, not talking efficiency... I think I even went as far as to mention I'm talking about able bodied people here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
3. Potential exploitation to move view in ways not possible with thumb-hat (is this still possible with TrackIR2?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No the new drivers fixed that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
In a server with padlock on, would a player decline to abuse padlock? Possibly. I know I don't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Lets stick to the topic here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Now in a server with padlock off, might a player with TrackIR decline to use it? Never. They spent $100+, why shouldn't they use it? It's only a minor advantage over using the thumb-hat...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The only minor thing here is your attempt at listing the advantages of TrackIR.

TAGERT

[This message was edited by tagert on Mon January 26 2004 at 01:00 PM.]