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View Full Version : Bombardier possition of its own



Snyde-Dastardly
05-30-2004, 01:01 AM
I was just wondering. If PF is gonna have alot of bombers in it, it should have a dedicated bombardier possition to crew in its station.I dont know if anyone has heard anything on this subject but I think it would make multiplayer COOP alot more fargin real. Or mabye Im just thinkin out loud.
Snyde

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Snyde-Dastardly
05-30-2004, 01:01 AM
I was just wondering. If PF is gonna have alot of bombers in it, it should have a dedicated bombardier possition to crew in its station.I dont know if anyone has heard anything on this subject but I think it would make multiplayer COOP alot more fargin real. Or mabye Im just thinkin out loud.
Snyde

http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/DN_4.bmp

Woodrow79
05-30-2004, 04:10 AM
I agree, having a bombadier position would be very good to have. I assume that the rear gunner position will be included as in IL2/FB.


Woodrow

Vortex_uk
05-30-2004, 06:17 AM
You got the bombardier postions in the TB-3 and the He-111,why wouldn't you get them in PF?

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VW-IceFire
05-30-2004, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vortex_uk:
You got the bombardier postions in the TB-3 and the He-111,why wouldn't you get them in PF?

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"We are not retreating, we are advancing in another direction. " ~ Gen. MacArthur

HyperLobby name : Vortex_uk<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That was my question...unless some don't have FB and don't know.

Both flyable bombers in FB that we currently have use their own detailed bombadiers station. There's no reason why that won't be true for PF.

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heywooood
05-30-2004, 12:00 PM
I dont play online - but I think Snyde is asking for muliple player positions within one plane.. so if i wanted to be pilot of bomber 'a' Icefire could be the bombadier of bomber 'a' so that we are controlling two different stations within one plane... this may already be possible - but I only play offline so I don't know.

Snyde-Dastardly
05-30-2004, 03:28 PM
Heywoood you hit it right on the nose there buddy! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif As it is only the pilot can crew the bombardier possition. Kinda a pain in the ars dureing coop missions. Id like to see it have its own dedicated possition.
Heres another question for ya all. Do you think the copilot possition will be able to fly the plane? Id like to see that as well. Mabye thats the plan, have the copilot take the controls while the pilot does the bombardiers job
CARPE DIEM
Snyde

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heywooood
05-30-2004, 04:59 PM
Snyde-

So it is not presently possible for two players to man one plane???

I just assumed you could. It was one of the things I thought I was missing out on by only playing offline. So you cant take a rear gun position in a Sturmy while yer pal pilots it... no comm back and forth with the pilot telling him where to turn so you can keep the enemy fighter in the crosshairs?.. Man - they have to have that, thats where the real fun is.

IV_JG51_Razor
05-30-2004, 05:27 PM
Heywooood - you can load up a bomber in FB/AEP with as many gunner postitons as the plane has with humans.

Snyde - This has been asked for many times before in the IL-2 forums, and Oleg has said that it would be too much work to redo the code to accomodate that feature. Bummer, because that would be the cat's a$$!

I think all the folks in here asking about particular features need to remember that, aside from the carrier operations which require some sort of rewrite of the IL-2 engine, everything else is going to remain pretty much the same as it is now in FB/AEP. I think we're going to get some better "weather" in cloud modeling, and we can all see the improvement in the look of the water, but aside from that, I doubt we'll see much else changed.

Maybe in BoB? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer
www.jg51.net (http://www.jg51.net)

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

GT182
05-30-2004, 05:59 PM
Yeah and too bad we won't have a Norden, as it is in B17 Flying Fortress. That would make a lot of people very happy.

"GT182" / "vonSpinmeister"
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"Fly to Survive, Survive to Fly"

heywooood
05-30-2004, 06:34 PM
ahhh - so you can man each gunner position but the pilot and bombardier must be only one player.... hmmm.

xenios
05-30-2004, 11:11 PM
We'll probably be getting a flyable B-25 at some point, and some of the glass-nosed ones had Norden sights. Usually the lead plane in a B-25 squadron had the precision sight. The nose gun had to be removed to accomadate the larger Norden computer. But I'll bet we won't ever see that in the sim; they'll probably just all have the standard sight.

Droopsnoot
05-31-2004, 11:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
ahhh - so you can man each gunner position but the pilot and bombardier must be only one player.... hmmm.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cooperative play, which is now becoming the popular innovation in flight sims, DEMANDS that the Pilot and Bombardier stations be separately manned stations if synchronous (tachometric) bombsights like the Norden are used in the heavy and very heavy bombers.

In Real Life, it took two people functioning as a team during the bomb run.

Precise altitudes and airspeeds had to be held while the bombardier was synchronizing until the bombs were released, and a precisely level aircraft had to be held for a part of the run, as well.. The autopilot could not do those things.

No bombardier was better than his pilot and no bomber pilot was better than his bombardier. it took them both to put the bombs on the target.

If multiplayer can handle two people aboard the same plane the developers will limit the saleability of their simulation if they do not program for separate and simultaneous manning of the pilot and bombardier stations, for that is a great and novel opportunity to provide cooperative play, that has not been introduced as yet.

There is a simulator designed to allow that which is past the planning stage now, so the rest of the industry "better get off the dime" and get with the program".

Eye candy cockpits and work stations are silly if they do not allow the operators of them to actually do their tasks just as they would in the real plane. That's what simulators were developed for.

If they are only "Playlike", you might as well hold a toy airplane in your upraised hand and "fly" it around the room making buzzing noises with your mouth!

IV_JG51_Razor
05-31-2004, 12:25 PM
Well said, and I agree with your sentiments Droopsnoot, however I've always been under the impression that (in the case of the B-17s and B-24s anyway), while on the bomb run, the aircraft was put on autopilot, and the Norden actually flew the plane with inputs from the bombardier. This is pretty much how it is modeled in the Heinkel now. I think the technical challanges of changing the IL-2:FB engine to accomodate your comments are prohibitavely "expensive". Hopefully, Oleg will make the necessary changes in the upcoming BoB sim.

Think about it for a second; he would have to allow for a single player to act as the pilot AND bombardier in the offline mode, as well as when it's being flown by a single player in online play, plus figuring out how to allow two separate players to have simultaneous control of the plane in online multiplay coops. That's a pretty tall order. I'd like nothing more than to see it done, but I doubt very seriously we'll ever see it in this IL-2 game engine. In the mean time....my arm is getting awfully tired!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer
www.jg51.net (http://www.jg51.net)

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

Droopsnoot
05-31-2004, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IV_JG51_Razor:
Well said, and I agree with your sentiments Droopsnoot, however I've always been under the impression that (in the case of the B-17s and B-24s anyway), while on the bomb run, the aircraft was put on autopilot, and the Norden actually flew the plane with inputs from the bombardier. This is pretty much how it is modeled in the Heinkel now. I think the technical challanges of changing the IL-2:FB engine to accomodate your comments are prohibitavely "expensive". Hopefully, Oleg will make the necessary changes in the upcoming BoB sim.

Think about it for a second; he would have to allow for a single player to act as the pilot _AND_ bombardier in the offline mode, as well as when it's being flown by a single player in online play, plus figuring out how to allow two separate players to have simultaneous control of the plane in online multiplay coops. That's a pretty tall order. I'd like nothing more than to see it done, but I doubt very seriously we'll ever see it in this IL-2 game engine. In the mean time....my arm is getting awfully tired!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer
http://www.jg51.net

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not precisely correct, Razor.

The C-1 Autopilot AIDED the pilot and the bombardier in their tasks.

The autopilot could hold altitude, to a certain extent by stabilzing the position of the nose in relation to a gyro vertical reference. It could also hold a steady course and turn the plane to follow the course change input from the bombsight.(which was an integral part of the Autopilot.)

However it did not hold airspeed,and it had a cyclic period laterally that allowed the wings to rock slowly over a period of time which varied with the flight conditions.

The bombardier ONLY guided the plane directionally via input from the bombsight.

It was up to the pilot to use his throttles and overpower the autopilot with his controls to maintain Indicated Airspeed steadily;to return to altitude if it varied due to the change of lift due to banking done by the bombardier; and to damp out the periodic lateral oscillations of the plane while the bombardier relevelled his bombsight, which would drift out of the vertical due to precession of the bombsight gyro.

Any acceleration or decelleration of airspeed caused the sight gyro to precess.

It also changed the groundspeed, thus the rate of closure, which required the bombardier to readjust the synchronization of his crosshairs, and replace the lateral crosshair back on the aiming point..

If the autopilot failed during the run, the pilot had to help the bombardier make course corrections or hold his course, by following the Pilot's Direction Indicator which had its input directly from the course data input by the bombardier as he operated the bombsight to cancel out wind drift.

So you see, the autopilot, by itself had a "Garbage In" input to the bombsight, which was an electro mechanical computer. The only thing a bombardier could guarantee if he bombed solely with the help of the autopilot was that his bombs wopuld hit the ground...provided they didn't hang up in the bomb bay.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The Heinkel may prove my point... before I gave up bombing with it, the autopilot (or AI?)in it couldn't hold altitude for sour apples! Has that changed?

About the second half of your quote, Razor...I've been that route before. I helped put the Norden into B17 II which initiaklly was intended to be multiplayer,

So I know what is reqiuired to make it a single player operation. It isn't as difficult as you might think, and there is an easy answer to the dual capability of bombsight operation in either single or multiplayer use.

Let me emphasize... I am not a programmer. rather I am an interpreter of scientific and engineering data who can put the material into terms the programmers can understand and convert into terms the computer understands.

[This message was edited by Droopsnoot on Mon May 31 2004 at 02:52 PM.]

Snyde-Dastardly
05-31-2004, 07:21 PM
Thanks for all the input fellas.
Its to bad that it wont happen and I agree with Droopsnoot that it really would set this sim apart from others even more than it allready does. It really does stink though that to be the Bombardier you have to be the pilot and switch between the two insted of concentrateing on one job. Kinda takes the "crew" out of crewing a bomber.

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tfu_iain1
06-02-2004, 09:45 AM
i tend to use the level stabiliser, and then the trim controls to keep it steady. once your used to it you cant do it fairly well.