PDA

View Full Version : Elimination Lost Popularity After Revenge Nerf



Kraxers
04-17-2017, 05:31 PM
Greetings
Before revenge nerf elimination was favourite of most of players including me. I admit revenge was too annoying at dominion and easy revenge on 1 v 1. But before some people come here and saying "oh but its not 1 v 1 uhuhu" 1v1 is kinda boring that you stare each other for 10 minutes with this turtle meta. And only one man to fight and talk. And also in elimination they put you on 1 v 1 positions then you keep going from there. So unlike these "hur dur its not 1v1 mode" its also not skirmish mode where you just placed to randomly swing your sword.
Before revenge nerf people were pretending to be honorable or you were putting hell of a fight when they gank you. But now elimination is low activity most of the time and it is just frustrating. All "honorable" people became gankers now. If your team has lower gear and skill which pretty much possible or other way around since mm system is complete garbage you just waiting to get ganked. At some points you can still win even easily. But if they have characters like shugoki warlord conq lb you are just getting raped.
I think they should rework on elimination mechanics because it is just rolling dice for your team atm.

CandleInTheDark
04-17-2017, 05:54 PM
In a team pvp, the best team wins.People should not get an I-win button to make it otherwise. I would as happily fight without revenge because, like any other team pvp out there, if I am 1v4 either I screwed up or my team did. Go ask people in destiny or the division or call of duty or rainbow 6 or battlefield or halo or pretty much any other team pvp out there to only attack you one at a time and see where that gets you. I suspect not far.

Gray360UK
04-17-2017, 06:43 PM
All "honorable" people became gankers now. If your team has lower gear and skill which pretty much possible or other way around since mm system is complete garbage you just waiting to get ganked. At some points you can still win even easily. But if they have characters like shugoki warlord conq lb you are just getting raped.
I think they should rework on elimination mechanics because it is just rolling dice for your team atm.

That's how Elimination is now for me, and we don't have the 1.05 patch on Console yet :rolleyes:

Some matches are 'honourable' some are complete riots. Well, most of mine are complete riots, because I start the riot ;)

Whatever, I am looking forward to the days ahead, when if 3 of us are left, we don't have to be scared of touching their one remaining player because he / she will go into HULK SMASH mode and kill us all.

Auztinito
04-17-2017, 06:44 PM
In a team pvp, the best team wins.People should not get an I-win button to make it otherwise. I would as happily fight without revenge because, like any other team pvp out there, if I am 1v4 either I screwed up or my team did. Go ask people in destiny or the division or call of duty or rainbow 6 or battlefield or halo or pretty much any other team pvp out there to only attack you one at a time and see where that gets you. I suspect not far.

Big Difference between those games & this one.Those are all Shooters.Ganging really doesn't mean anything because a good player can still win easily against a group for sole reason that damage is more or less equaled out between all weapons or characters except for Division but that's because of gear & gadgets matter.In most of those team PvP games they are categorized into team-based & skill-based.Team-Based games like Rainbow 6 have friendly fire enabled.This is a fighting game,if we are to treat this exactly like Rainbow 6 & ect.Friendly Fire needs to be buffed to match those games.If we are to treat this as a skill-based game then the better player should win regardless.

CandleInTheDark
04-17-2017, 06:45 PM
Some matches are 'honourable' some are complete riots. Well, most of mine are complete riots, because I start the riot ;)

Can't take a peacekeeper anywhere.

Gray360UK
04-17-2017, 06:52 PM
Can't take a peacekeeper anywhere.

You can take the Peacekeeper out of the riot, but you can't take the riot out of the Peacekeeper ;)

CandleInTheDark
04-17-2017, 06:52 PM
Big Difference between those games & this one.Those are all Shooters.Ganging really doesn't mean anything because a good player can still win easily against a group for sole reason that damage is more or less equaled out between all weapons or characters except for Division but that's because of gear & gadgets matter.

Destiny, assuming we both are accurate, I can kill someone with a handcannon in the same amount of time they take to kill me with an assault rifle, what I can;t do is also get the guy to my left who is shooting a scout rifle at me and the guy behind me with a pulse rifle if they are also accurate. People want revenge to enable them to do the equivalent of that and that is rewarding bad gameplay with an advantage which people justify because the game has Honor in the title..

AgentCelt
04-17-2017, 06:53 PM
Elimination has always been garbage just like brawl, that's why people are probably not playing it. People treat it like a 1 v 1 game mode. You and all 4 teammates should spawn next to each other and fight the enemy team as a unit without revenge and without power ups. Just my opinion. That's why I think Skirmish and Dominion are proving to be the better game modes, there's actually a level of teamwork required to win.

CandleInTheDark
04-17-2017, 06:54 PM
You can take the Peacekeeper out of the riot, but you can't take the riot out of the Peacekeeper ;)

Darn right

Auztinito
04-17-2017, 06:59 PM
Destiny, assuming we both are accurate, I can kill someone with a handcannon in the same amount of time they take to kill me with an assault rifle, what I can;t do is also get the guy to my left who is shooting a scout rifle at me and the guy behind me with a pulse rifle if they are also accurate. People want revenge to enable the, to do the equivalent of that and that is rewarding bad gameplay with an advantage which people justify because the game has Honor in the title..

You also should never reward ganging up even if the other team has bad players.That guy with a scout rifle or guy with a pulse have to be decent to the least but if they completely suck then you could come out of that more times than most.Also,they have super-charges for reason on there.I played Destiny & have been in those positions more times than most & still won.It's a matter of skill on there.There is nothing accurate about spamming R2 on in 4v1 situation.That's the equivalent of a team spamming grenade launcher at one target.You should not reward that.

MumfordDaHound
04-17-2017, 07:12 PM
Bottom line though (if its true that ppl are playing it a lot less) it hurts the game. Ganking takes less skill then 4v1 with revenge any day. Id like to see the % of times that someone vs 4 actually wins, I bet its less then 10%. If less ppl are playing because of it thats a negative plain and simple.

Should they have fixed the bugs to revenge first? Yes, but I thought they should've held back at the %s until they fixed the bugs first. See how it played out etc. Nobody likes getting ganked, in a mode where you start off "solo" its a mix between team and solo, in my mind anyway.

CandleInTheDark
04-17-2017, 07:16 PM
People aren't supposed to win 1v4, they're not supposed to get into 1v4, that is bad team pvp.


Revenge Mechanics (submitted by: pure_energist)

Q. There is a lot of debate on what UBI had intended with this game mechanic. With this nerf it appears it was not designed to be a group counter attack but just a way to provide breathing room when attacked by multiple enemies, allowing an escape or holding ground for a brief period. Can you give us a clear vision on how this mechanic was meant to be utilized?

ROMAN: It is intended to give you a short window to either flee / breath or if you use it well, take out one enemy of the enemy group. You are not supposed to always be in revenge when surrounded by enemies, and if you are alone and surrounded, your team might have failed you, or you are just in the wrong place. We’ll continue to do some balancing on Revenge gain and benefits as we gather more data.

kweassa1917
04-17-2017, 07:26 PM
Listen carefully.

Purely from a game design perspective, Elimination from the start had the negative elements that would make it inherently 'unpopular'.

Elimination, is what is known as "GLADITORIAL-ARENA" style PvP.

At its heart, this game type focuses on pure player-vs-player combat without any extra elements that adhere to any "grand strategy" or "tactics" that may effect the outcome of the battle that's outside of pure PvP combat[.

In simpler words, it doesn't have any strategic elements like in dominion, where people may find a variety of extra features and factors they might use to their advantage in different ways. For one thing, in Dominion the distances between nodes mean moving as a one big horde is grossly inefficient, and therefore this encourages players to split up and join up according to the situation. Just this alone is something that requires a lot of experience and tactical thinking to do correctly -- just see the people whining about how they get "ganked" because they don't know any better.

In dominion people are killed and resurrected, and the rejoin fights and move around the map according to current objectives. However, in a Gladitorial-Arena type of gameplay, when you get killed its mostly over at that point... and when that happens, the difference in combat strength of the two opposing teams drastically shift to one side.

One player being killed in dominion is a temporary setback which may be recovered through other means, like holding up enemies, distracting their captured nodes, killing a helluva lot of minions. However, in the "gladitorial-arena" type Elimination, one player being killed DIRECTLY equates to a whoppin' 25% of your team strength being chopped off.(since its 4v4 initially)

In any competition, the difference between 100% and 75% is HUGE, and the higher the skill the players, the more unlikely this difference is ever remedied in any way. Like said, Elimination type PvP format doesn't give you any other options to remedy that difference. So what happens is the phenomenon known as SNOWBALLING. Like a snowball rolling downhill, the initial disadvantage just keeps growing bigger and bigger exponentially.


Now the important part: THIS is the reason why "gladitorial-arena" type PvP in MMOGs are usually considered to be for HIGH SKILL LEVEL , COMBAT PURISTS. It's brutal and punishing, and generally the difference between individual skill level manifests often as an obstacle which you have no way of overcoming. Watch arena matches in MMOGs like WoW and you can immediately tell the 'underdogs' have maybe a snowball's chance in hell to win the match. Literally watch the first few minutes and see someone go down, and experienced players can immediately tell which team is simply superior, and which are inferior.

That's why in most MMOGs, these "gladitorial-arena type PvP format is actually the LEAST popular. People of high skill level love it, but in real life, absolute majority of players (like about 70% of a game's given demographic) are somewhere between low~average level at any given time. And when these people go into an arena type gameplay, the chances are, they won't really enjoy it all. It's that hardcore and brutal, and harsh. It's actually even more hardcore than 1v1 fights, because the lesser skilled team is not only individually disadvantaged, but also double-disadvantaged in terms of teamwork and coordination.

That's why generally, the absolute majority of people in any given PvP game enjoy stuff like dominion, which offers a variety of different situations. Even if you are not so skilled or as highly geared, you can be of help to the team if you're smart, know where to go, which node to disrupt, which enemies to bait and lure, revive people, kill minions, etc etc..



That being said, therefore, if people were really loving Elimination before the revenge nerf like you say, then that means its an irregularity which cannot be observed in other games. In other words, []it means revenge was so powerful and broken that it made the average player think that they actually had a chance in a game type which is most discriminating and harsh for average people in the first place[/i].

That;s some serious shi*, and a testament to how broken revenge was.

Conversely, if revenge nerf really DID drop the popularity of Elimination, that means the nerf was right. Once revenge stopped being superman mode, the reasons I described above began to work normally. It became a pure, brutal comparison of skill between the two opposing teams, and SNOWBALLING started working normally, as it should, again.



Ironically, if what you say is true, that actually justifies the nerf.

Auztinito
04-17-2017, 07:31 PM
People aren't supposed to win 1v4, they're not supposed to get into 1v4, that is bad team pvp.

That is what they recently said to fit this communities' opinion of it.It the same exact thing that happened with GRFS and Grenade Launcher.The forumers hated grenade launchers & *****ed about it so much that they caved & made them border the line of useless in other words,they're pandering.They had a very different opinion on Revenge before they changed their tune on it.
Anyway,going off that logic is in turn stupid.How is a slow character supposed to flee when is pit up against faster characters.You may as well put your controller down because you cannot flee.
Side note:I love how people that love the revenge nerf,hate the idea of a buffed friendly fire but preach to other about communicating & being a team.While their version of teamwork is hitting R2 over & over ignoring they have teammates.

Kraxers
04-17-2017, 07:33 PM
This game is not like Cs:Go that you can clutch depending on your skill. So atm when someone kills one of your teammate he goes ganking someone he dies fast and it starts a boring ganking game. Getting ganked in this game is not fun getting shieldbash to oblivion while trying to fight is just stupid. You cant even fight. So people obviously dont have fun from it. It is clear from popularity and activity. So it should change just 2 minutes ago I played an elimination. Their conq and warlord were not even starting 1v1 after they lost it. They were just runing to gank someone and since their bash thing making thing cancerous they won even tough we tried to stop them. This game already lack modes killing all the fun of one of these modes just making game worse and more boring.

SendRickPics
04-17-2017, 07:33 PM
People aren't supposed to win 1v4, they're not supposed to get into 1v4, that is bad team pvp.

Except in every thread this has come up, I've proven that the intention is exactly opposite of your statement.

Gang-banging was a problem in Alpha and Beta, revenge got buffed, it stopped being a problem.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-17-2017, 07:36 PM
I don't play Elimination outside of orders so this is good news for me.


It means more players for Brawl and Dominion.



Also the revenge nerf was totally required and they are not gonna be reversing it anytime soon. (Thank God)

MumfordDaHound
04-17-2017, 07:38 PM
And again if less are playing it then there is a problem...

Why not just start all 4 ppl together if it is purely a team mode? Why start off solo? In a gladiator arena it was grp vs grp right in front of each other.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-17-2017, 07:41 PM
And again if less are playing it then there is a problem...

Why not just start all 4 ppl together if it is purely a team mode? Why start off solo? In a gladiator arena it was grp vs grp right in front of each other.

Because when they start separately its alot more dignified and skill based for at least the first part of the match unless your opponent is one of those tools that run as soon as the match starts.


If you are started all 4 right next to each other both teams would instantly devolve into a poo flinging mess like what happens in Skirmish.




Nobody wants that.

kweassa1917
04-17-2017, 07:42 PM
This game is not like Cs:Go that you can clutch depending on your skill. So atm when someone kills one of your teammate he goes ganking someone he dies fast and it starts a boring ganking game. Getting ganked in this game is not fun getting shieldbash to oblivion while trying to fight is just stupid. You cant even fight. So people obviously dont have fun from it. It is clear from popularity and activity. So it should change just 2 minutes ago I played an elimination. Their conq and warlord were not even starting 1v1 after they lost it. They were just runing to gank someone and since their bash thing making thing cancerous they won even tough we tried to stop them. This game already lack modes killing all the fun of one of these modes just making game worse and more boring.

You're not getting it.

The PvP format you are playing is inherently that way. In other words, a 4v4 environment without any objectives except pure killing each other, is from the start DESTINED to be a "gank" fest. That's why I said you need to see stuff like WoW gladiator matches.

It's PRECISELY because that a member of your team being killed immediately equates to a snowballing loss, that ENTIRE TEAM TACTICS in such PvP format is developed and evolved upon "FOCUS" and "DENIAL".

Yes, that's right. It sounds so lame when you say "ganking."

But flip the coin around and its what pro-gamers and game-strategists call FOCUSING.

You FOCUS the enemy tema's weakest link, so you break it and shatter them. Conversely defensive team strategies are built upon coordination and mutual support so that no one member of your team gets FOCUSED easily and becomes downfall of your team.

I mean come on, what in the world did you expect from a pure 4v4, combat-elmination type PvP?

In the professional circles, very high level of PvP players, being ganked because a member of your team got focused, simply means YOUR TEAM LOST BECAUSE YOUR TEAM WAS WEAKER. How is any other PvP game different? You think Overwatch players go for 1v1 duels and don't "gank"? The entire GAME revolves around team combinations to FOCUS efficiently. That's what the game type is.

If you don't like being ganked because one of your member got focused firs, and the rest of the team couldn't save him, then it simply means you shouldn't have played Elimination.

See what I meant by these PvP types being "unpopular"?

Your reaction to this "gank" situation is EXACTLY what weaker players do, and also the exact reason why this PvP format is not popular at all.

MumfordDaHound
04-17-2017, 07:51 PM
Because when they start separately its alot more dignified and skill based for at least the first part of the match unless your opponent is one of those tools that run as soon as the match starts.


If you are started all 4 right next to each other both teams would instantly devolve into a poo flinging mess like what happens in Skirmish.




Nobody wants that.

But its purely a "team" mode, right? Thats what so many ppl are saying, why start off solo? Make it a brawl of 8 until its over. Ppl want it both ways. It's a gankfest probably now anyway just get it over with faster and quit all the BS.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-17-2017, 07:56 PM
But its purely a "team" mode, right? Thats what so many ppl are saying, why start off solo? Make it a brawl of 8 until its over. Ppl want it both ways. It's a gankfest probably now anyway just get it over with faster and quit all the BS.

Elimination is like Brawl and Skirmish had a baby.


It starts off in single combat because as I said if you started everyone together it would be a poo flinging mess instantly and then after the initial fights if anyone is left standing it turns to buff grabbing and revive getting.


There is a reason why I only play Duel/Brawl/Dominion.


Elimination and Skirmish are a mess.

MumfordDaHound
04-17-2017, 08:05 PM
Elimination is like Brawl and Skirmish had a baby.


It starts off in single combat because as I said if you started everyone together it would be a poo flinging mess instantly and then after the initial fights if anyone is left standing it turns to buff grabbing and revive getting.


There is a reason why I only play Duel/Brawl/Dominion.


Elimination and Skirmish are a mess.

Then there is a problem... If those modes are not being played because of revenge nerf (if thats the case) that says it all about how ppl feel about those modes and revenge.

Premade grps should and probably do roll over randoms. In match making, make it so only premade grps play orher premade grps. Randoms play randoms , could help some.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-17-2017, 08:15 PM
Then there is a problem... If those modes are not being played because of revenge nerf (if thats the case) that says it all about how ppl feel about those modes and revenge.

Premade grps should and probably do roll over randoms. In match making, make it so only premade grps play orher premade grps. Randoms play randoms , could help some.

I agree, but here is my take on why elimination is no longer as popular.


Revenge as it was when used CORRECTLY was okay.


But as in any other game players will always find a way to exploit and abuse OP mechanics. Thus you got the roving gangs of idiots with maxed out revenge gain and revenge attack so they would get it if you sneeze on them and then they proceed to kill you in 2 hits and in the Shugoki's case ONE hit.

So naturally these tools would gravitate to the game modes that best allowed them to spam this gear and it just so happens that Elimination and Skirmish were the best places for that.


Now that revenge is no longer abusive or spammable they have left for other modes while they actually learn to play the game properly lol

CandleInTheDark
04-17-2017, 08:19 PM
Except in every thread this has come up, I've proven that the intention is exactly opposite of your statement.

Gang-banging was a problem in Alpha and Beta, revenge got buffed, it stopped being a problem.

So basically you are saying that people who were not good at team pvp were complaining that people who were good at team pvp were beating them at team pvp using team pvp tactics to the point they got something that made one player able to beat four and now that people who more commonly play team pvp call BS they are the ones that are wrong. Revenge should not have been buffed to begin with, it certainly should not have been buffed to the point that the best move is back into a corner and wait for more than one person to come at you, that is bad team pvp play.

AgentCelt
04-17-2017, 08:20 PM
Because when they start separately its alot more dignified and skill based for at least the first part of the match unless your opponent is one of those tools that run as soon as the match starts.


If you are started all 4 right next to each other both teams would instantly devolve into a poo flinging mess like what happens in Skirmish.




Nobody wants that.

Because of no respawn in Elimination I guarantee the players would be way more careful in the fight. In Skirmish you die and you know you respawn so you can charge in and repeat. Strategy's like flanking would probably be used a lot more if Elimination allowed both teams to spawns together.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-17-2017, 08:23 PM
So basically you are saying that people who were not good at team pvp were complaining that people who were good at team pvp were beating them at team pvp using team pvp tacics to the point they got something that made one player able to beat four and now that people who more commonly play team pvp call BS they are the ones that are wrong. Revenge should not have been buffed to begin with, it certainly should not have been buffed to the point that the best move is back into a corner and wait for more than one person to come at you.

For once I actually agree with you.


Its not so much the ability to 4v1 that pissed me off. It was the guys (Usually Wardens for some reason) that used the gear that gave them INSTANT revenge and MASSIVE damage buffs so that the MOMENT another person looked at them wrong they go into Super Saiyan 4 mode and bathing the maps in my blood with a single hit.


ESPECIALLY when you could tell that they were AFKers that had NO CLUE how to play their class and just relied on the gear to do the work for them.


It was infuriating

MumfordDaHound
04-17-2017, 08:24 PM
Then there is a problem... If those modes are not being played because of revenge nerf (if thats the case) that says it all about how ppl feel about those modes and revenge.

Premade grps should and probably do roll over randoms. In match making, make it so only premade grps play orher premade grps. Randoms play randoms , could help some.


I agree, but here is my take on why elimination is no longer as popular.


Revenge as it was when used CORRECTLY was okay.


But as in any other game players will always find a way to exploit and abuse OP mechanics. Thus you got the roving gangs of idiots with maxed out revenge gain and revenge attack so they would get it if you sneeze on them and then they proceed to kill you in 2 hits and in the Shugoki's case ONE hit.

So naturally these tools would gravitate to the game modes that best allowed them to spam this gear and it just so happens that Elimination and Skirmish were the best places for that.


Now that revenge is no longer abusive or spammable they have left for other modes while they actually learn to play the game properly lol

It wasnt roaming grps with revenge builds that were a problem it was when 1 person was beating multiple ppl... You know the "superior" grps and players that win but when they faced 1 measly person they the "good" couldn't beat them... Which I would love to see real stats on 1v4 and the anount of times they actually won.

SendRickPics
04-17-2017, 10:13 PM
So basically you are saying that people who were not good at team pvp were complaining that people who were good at team pvp were beating them at team pvp using team pvp tacics to the point they got something that made one player able to beat four and now that people who more commonly play team pvp call BS they are the ones that are wrong. Revenge should not have been buffed to begin with, it certainly should not have been buffed to the point that the best move is back into a corner and wait for more than one person to come at you, that is bad team pvp play.

You're trying to look at this from a "Team Game" perspective, this is a fighting game, and the mechanical limitations don't promote fighting beyond 1v1 or 2v1. Hence why Revenge Mode was upped. It was an equalizer against overwhelming use of force, which for all intents and purposes isn't all that skillful or intelligent. "Herr herr herr if I outnumber X with Y, then I can win, herr herr herr."

CandleInTheDark
04-17-2017, 10:31 PM
You're trying to look at this from a "Team Game" perspective, this is a fighting game, and the mechanical limitations don't promote fighting beyond 1v1 or 2v1. Hence why Revenge Mode was upped. It was an equalizer against overwhelming use of force, which for all intents and purposes isn't all that skillful or intelligent. "Herr herr herr if I outnumber X with Y, then I can win, herr herr herr."

It is a team of four, not four individuals, hence team pvp and that is the same logic in pretty much any team pvp in the last ten years. Both teams have the same opportunity, if one team is less co-ordinated and this puts them at a disadvantage, then they deserve to lose, not get something that will turn the tide. You can call it ganking or ********ing (nice avoidance of the censor filter to put a bad spin on teamplay by the by) or whatever you like to put a bad spin on it, they are basically words being used for 'the other team worked better as a team than we did' and I have little sympathy for that. The only way you should be able to equal a whole other team by yourself is the likes of being the monster in Evolve. You are not meant to be an end game boss or be able to treat the whole other team as npc mooks in what is meant to be a team game and that is what revenge in its pre-nerfed form enabled.

Alustar.exe
04-17-2017, 11:06 PM
Big Difference between those games & this one.Those are all Shooters.Ganging really doesn't mean anything because a good player can still win easily against a group for sole reason that damage is more or less equaled out between all weapons or characters except for Division but that's because of gear & gadgets matter.In most of those team PvP games they are categorized into team-based & skill-based.Team-Based games like Rainbow 6 have friendly fire enabled.This is a fighting game,if we are to treat this exactly like Rainbow 6 & ect.Friendly Fire needs to be buffed to match those games.If we are to treat this as a skill-based game then the better player should win regardless.

World of Warcraft, Rift, Tera and Aion(just to name a few) are similar in the pvp aspect. They have options for various types of match ups. It's a group based combat video game. People complaining when you get grouped up on in any scenario not specifically stating 1v1 are missing the key descriptor.

Alustar.exe
04-17-2017, 11:16 PM
Premade grps should and probably do roll over randoms. In match making, make it so only premade grps play orher premade grps. Randoms play randoms , could help some.

Rift attempted this, myself and the other PvP vets tried to fight it. In the end they pushed it through and it killed the pvp community.

Bottoms line is, You have the same abilities and options as a premade group. The fact that random groups don't work together is not the fault of people in premades and we shouldn't be told to go play with each other because me and a few friends want to play together and work strategically. its not hard to plug in a mic or keyboard and start dialogue.

CandleInTheDark
04-17-2017, 11:23 PM
Rift attempted this, myself and the other PvP vets tried to fight it. In the end they pushed it through and it killed the pvp community.

Bottoms line is, You have the same abilities and options as a premade group. The fact that random groups don't work together is not the fault of people in premades and we shouldn't be told to go play with each other because me and a few friends want to play together and work strategically. its not hard to plug in a mic or keyboard and start dialogue.

Not trying to be argumentative (I don't know enough to have an informed opinion on it) but Fifa quite successfully made that part of the point of getting the current year's edition at full price (more going towards ultimate team maybe but pro clubs will bring along a whole group at once) and Destiny has an elimination mode for it.

Alustar.exe
04-17-2017, 11:51 PM
Not trying to be argumentative(I don't know enough to have an informed opinion on it) but Fifa quite successfully make part of the point of getting the current year's edition at full price (more going towards ultimate team maybe but pro clubs will bring along a whole group at once) and Destiny has an elimination mode for it.

I think that's the defining trait there, I know both FIFA and destiny have a pretty static player base in that you don't have a lot of casuals. (I don't know either games well)
To me that's the problem when you try to pander to the casual players too much, you risk alienating the players that would otherwise stay.

Case and point, Rift is a perfect example of a phenomenal concept turned garbage by a whiney player base. Pvp in that game died quick because of imbalances caused by top tier raiders and fair weather PvPers. In the end the ones who were most vocal about the gear desparities and "op" classes were the first to jump ship. leaving the few who liked the game the way it was to pick up the pieces.

CandleInTheDark
04-17-2017, 11:52 PM
I think that's the defining trait there, I know both FIFA and destiny have a pretty static player base in that you don't have a lot of casuals. (I don't know either games well)
To me that's the problem when you try to pander to the casual players too much, you risk alienating the players that would otherwise stay.

Case and point, Rift is a perfect example of a phenomenal concept turned garbage by a whiney player base. Pvp in that game died quick because of imbalances caused by top tier raiders and fair weather PvPers. In the end the ones who were most vocal about the gear desparities and "op" classes were the first to jump ship. leaving the few who liked the game the way it was to pick up the pieces.

Ick, that must have a lot of what is happening right now seem very familiar to you.

Alustar.exe
04-18-2017, 12:02 AM
Ick, that must have a lot of what is happening right now seem very familiar to you.

Yeah it is. I'll admit freely I'm not great at this game, but I adore it. I really enjoy bleeding noobs out and raising hell on my PK.
But I great at rift. My sin build was infamously sought after, so to see this title suffer the same effects is disheartening to say the least.
I'm really tired of getting into a game and falling in love only to see a steady stream of nerfs and changes within the first few months of release.

MumfordDaHound
04-18-2017, 12:09 AM
Rift attempted this, myself and the other PvP vets tried to fight it. In the end they pushed it through and it killed the pvp community.

Bottoms line is, You have the same abilities and options as a premade group. The fact that random groups don't work together is not the fault of people in premades and we shouldn't be told to go play with each other because me and a few friends want to play together and work strategically. its not hard to plug in a mic or keyboard and start dialogue.

Ok, what's another solution then? If ppl aren't playing elimination mode now cause it's a gank fest (again, if it's true) and this is happening because of the revenge nerf, there is a problem. That tells us ppl are not having fun. This is a game and it gets competitive but we all want to have fun, still. Personally I have zero issues with revenge, I've killed many because of it and died to it plenty too. The ppl complaining that you should never be able to 1v4 baffles me, cause if they were in such a good grp to get to that point what happen to the grp being able to disable and take the person out?

As a premade don't you want a competitive game anyway? What does smashing a bunch randoms do? The best games are the down to the wire tight matches. That's exciting and fun. Win or lose its still fun. If ppl feel like they have no shot, in this case because of the revenge nerf then the desire to play takes a hit.

Revenge needed the bugs fixed no doubt, but start with that first, then go deeper if needed. I guess they could buff it up a little and find a middle ground.

CandleInTheDark
04-18-2017, 12:24 AM
The ppl complaining that you should never be able to 1v4 baffles me, cause if they were in such a good grp to get to that point what happen to the grp being able to disable and take the person out?

I can't speak for others but the reason I am so dug in on it is I spent a weekend pretty much arguing with a guy who felt that he had the right to be on a par with four people if he was being attacked by four people and that goes against the grain of just about every other pvp out there barring Evolve. I am not going to go through three others with my team to suddenly find myself against an end game boss type scenario, that is BS and most of this view seems to be because people want it all to be 1v1 because 'honor' anyway whatever the gamemode, I really wish ubisoft would change the name.

MumfordDaHound
04-18-2017, 12:31 AM
I can't speak for others but the reason I am so dug in on it is I spent a weekend pretty much arguing with a guy who felt that he had the right to be on a par with four people if he was being attacked by four people and that goes against the grain of just about every other pvp out there barring Evolve. I am not going to go through three others with my team to suddenly find myself against an end game boss type scenario, that is BS and most of this view seems to be because people want it all to be 1v1 because 'honor' anyway whatever the gamemode, I really wish ubisoft would change the name.

Ok, but how many times has a 1v4 won? I'm guessing less then 10% that ever happens. BUT ppl feel like they have a fighting chance. Even if they lose.

CandleInTheDark
04-18-2017, 12:35 AM
Ok, but how many times has a 1v4 won? I'm guessing less then 10% that ever happens. BUT ppl feel like they have a fighting chance. Even if they lose.

But the fact that people believe that this is what revenge is for and the fact that someone with the right build can chain revenge every three seconds, heck the fact that it is easier for someone to fight more than one person than a single opponent show how broken it was in its state and the people crying about it are mostly the they have no right to gang up on me in a team pvp crowd. As to 1v4 I don't know, I have beaten two and nearly a third with it but I feel relatively sure I can at least hold them for a few seconds if I am tying them up in dominion or otherwise would just get back to my teammates without revenge. I have a slow build up build by design, so I regularly have to.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-18-2017, 12:37 AM
Ok, but how many times has a 1v4 won? I'm guessing less then 10% that ever happens. BUT ppl feel like they have a fighting chance. Even if they lose.

1v1? Pure skill based match. (Unless the environment is used)


2v1? Sure. A great player can beat two bad ones and a good player has a chance.


3v1? Okay now we are getting into HIGHLY UNLIKELY territory. You would need a perfect storm of you being perfect and your opponents making mistakes and getting in each others way. But it is TECHNICALLY possible, but not with any degree of regularity.


4v1? Not even a chance. Just close your eyes and bite the pillow because you are about to be destroyed in ways you never thought possible. Nobody should be able to win a 4v1 in this game. To be able to do so with any degree of regularity would be game breaking and would completely defeat the purpose of working with teammates to achieve victory.

TheMalakith
04-18-2017, 12:39 AM
Ok, but how many times has a 1v4 won? I'm guessing less then 10% that ever happens. BUT ppl feel like they have a fighting chance. Even if they lose.

Revenge didn't only activate in 1vs4 but also in 1vs2 and 1vs3. Hell, even in 1vs1 with the old revenge. You could litterally block until someone joined and 1-2 shot him. It was bad and it's a godsent they nerfed that.

MumfordDaHound
04-18-2017, 12:52 AM
Revenge didn't only activate in 1vs4 but also in 1vs2 and 1vs3. Hell, even in 1vs1 with the old revenge. You could litterally block until someone joined and 1-2 shot him. It was bad and it's a godsent they nerfed that.

I know in 1v1 it happens and I would rather it not, but any multiple situations the 2+ ppl need to play smart disable and not just top heavy then flex after it, cause what skill is that?? It's knuckle dragging moments like that which get you killed by revenge.

MumfordDaHound
04-18-2017, 12:55 AM
1v1? Pure skill based match. (Unless the environment is used)


2v1? Sure. A great player can beat two bad ones and a good player has a chance.


3v1? Okay now we are getting into HIGHLY UNLIKELY territory. You would need a perfect storm of you being perfect and your opponents making mistakes and getting in each others way. But it is TECHNICALLY possible, but not with any degree of regularity.


4v1? Not even a chance. Just close your eyes and bite the pillow because you are about to be destroyed in ways you never thought possible. Nobody should be able to win a 4v1 in this game. To be able to do so with any degree of regularity would be game breaking and would completely defeat the purpose of working with teammates to achieve victory.

That's what I'm saying though how many ppl % wise really take out 4 ppl before nerf? I bet it was minor at best. 2v1 yea that happens a lot, manly cause it's a 1v1 close to the end and then a team ate pops a guy and boom, 1 shot the guy he was fighting who was low, then it's 1v1 with revenge and now you are in trouble if you miss a block, parry or gb.

CoyoteXStarrk
04-18-2017, 01:12 AM
That's what I'm saying though how many ppl % wise really take out 4 ppl before nerf? I bet it was minor at best. 2v1 yea that happens a lot, manly cause it's a 1v1 close to the end and then a team ate pops a guy and boom, 1 shot the guy he was fighting who was low, then it's 1v1 with revenge and now you are in trouble if you miss a block, parry or gb.

The main issue with revenge had nothing to do with how it worked with groups. It was the amount of abuse that it received by people who could get revenge 2 or 3 times in a single fight or people like Shugoki mains who could literally 1 hit kill you with their heavy while revenged.


It was nuts.

MumfordDaHound
04-18-2017, 01:51 AM
The main issue with revenge had nothing to do with how it worked with groups. It was the amount of abuse that it received by people who could get revenge 2 or 3 times in a single fight or people like Shugoki mains who could literally 1 hit kill you with their heavy while revenged.


It was nuts.

Yeah, but that was because of the double dipping with the bugs. Revenge was gaining from block and injury from one block. Hence fix the bug first then the %s

Alustar.exe
04-18-2017, 02:01 AM
You're trying to look at this from a "Team Game" perspective, this is a fighting game, and the mechanical limitations don't promote fighting beyond 1v1 or 2v1. Hence why Revenge Mode was upped. It was an equalizer against overwhelming use of force, which for all intents and purposes isn't all that skillful or intelligent. "Herr herr herr if I outnumber X with Y, then I can win, herr herr herr."

I fail to see how there are mechanical issues with anything more than a 2v1. Maybe user error issues.
It seems there is a common misconception to lump every group of players together in the same category of "gang-bang spammers".
If you weren't supposed to group up and coordinate attacks, they wouldn't have bothered making more than 1v1 match ups.
Pro-tip: it actually is more intelligent and skillful to use superior numbers to win a fight.

kweassa1917
04-18-2017, 08:24 AM
1v1? Pure skill based match. (Unless the environment is used)

Agreed.-- although technically, the use of environment is a vital part of situational awareness -- which is also an important mental skillset.



2v1? Sure. A great player can beat two bad ones and a good player has a chance.

Agreed.



3v1? Okay now we are getting into HIGHLY UNLIKELY territory. You would need a perfect storm of you being perfect and your opponents making mistakes and getting in each others way. But it is TECHNICALLY possible, but not with any degree of regularity.

Case-by-case -- depends a LOT on the situation.

In my case, I have around maybe 10~15% of chance to win a 1v3 scenario IF the outnumbered situation ensues during a fight which I've mostly already won. Like, I fight opponent A, he is on the brink of death, and at that moment enemies B and C also join the fray. If A chooses to stay and fight, then a timed revenge will more than likely give me an opportunity to quickly finish A off, and then make it into a 1v2 situation.

If that's not case, and I face all 3 enemies at full health, then my chances are probably less than 2%.

Revenge is still such a great survival tool when 1v3 happens. When revenge meter fills up, enemies start becoming more careful, become extremely alert against the revenge activation knockdown and throws less attacks, and consciously goes for GB opportunities -- An excellent opportunity to initimidate with a fake move, . and then turn and run.

Prior knowledge of enemy rep/gear level via the "preparing to launch" screen helps immensely. Being surrounded by 3 enemies, of whom 2 of them are below rep1 and two gear tiers lower than you, is a lot different from being surrounded by 3 enemies that are all comparable to your own spec.

Also, IMO 1v3 is about the realistic limit where you can decide not to flee, but still position yourself during combat to avoid being surrounded.

I usually do this to buy time and survive as long as possible. Basically, your goal is not to win a 1v3, but weather it. The key is to never allow yourself to be flanked. Always try to keep all 3 of your enemies in your frontal 100~120 degrees cone of vision. Keep moving around and try to force your opponents to overlap each other in the LOS(line of sight). It usually works well in wide open areas where you have plenty of room to maneuver, and also particularly useful if there aren't masterful disabler classes (Lawb, Shug, Raider, Conq) around -- usually viable in mid zone in Dominion, but not viable in narrow quarters. or terrain with walls where you may be cornered. (Contrary to popular fantasy and media portrayal, backing up against a wall isn't a smart move in real fights at all)



4v1? Not even a chance. Just close your eyes and bite the pillow because you are about to be destroyed in ways you never thought possible. Nobody should be able to win a 4v1 in this game. To be able to do so with any degree of regularity would be game breaking and would completely defeat the purpose of working with teammates to achieve victory.

Agreed. Not a chance unless you use AoE attack feats cleverly, or manage to knock others off a ledge non-stop .

The problem is even with superbly controlled and disciplined positioning as mentioned above in the 1v3 scenario, when it comes to 1v4, there's just no way to keep yourself from being flanked.

In a 1v3 scenario, if all 3 enemies are careful and passive, and don't usually run around, then range assessment and dodges are usually the only thing I need to keep all 3 of them in my cone of vision. If 1 of them is more clever, and decides to sprint past me to position at the backside, I start sprinting back as well to stop granting him the flank. Or in an opposite move, I can sprint FORWARD to blow past the 2 guys in front of me, which will again make all 3 of them in front of me.

But when it becomes 1v4, there's no chance. There's ALWAYS someone at your flank, and that guy will eventually be your downfall.



But then again, being surrounded by 4 guys means either I was playing like an idiot, my team mates are idiots, or my teammates are all dead -- which means I deserve to die. So no biggie. If I do something stupid and make mistakes, I lose. That's what a game is.

In that sense, revenge is plenty fine, thank you. Can't count how many times it saved my skin.

Auztinito
04-18-2017, 09:12 AM
World of Warcraft, Rift, Tera and Aion(just to name a few) are similar in the pvp aspect. They have options for various types of match ups. It's a group based combat video game. People complaining when you get grouped up on in any scenario not specifically stating 1v1 are missing the key descriptor.

Those are literally pre-defined 99% of the time.You have a healer,dps,& tank.This game does not have that kind of system.
Also,most of those MMO's have horrible PvP setups & are just tacked on.

If 1v4 should not be possible in any game about teamwork then why in team-based games,am I able to pull this off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTCGy2Hs5MU&index=2&list=PLSSczDK2ZL1o94VuCM5LOcp4R9_Zwi2pX

kweassa1917
04-18-2017, 09:43 AM
Those are literally pre-defined 99% of the time.You have a healer,dps,& tank.This game does not have that kind of system.

You're really grasping at straws here, man.

How is it having predefined class/roles any relevant? Or better yet, technically FH has roles, too. Vanguards, heavies, assassins and hybrids. And they all have unique traits, no?

You're literally coming up with anything to try and excuse the failures of people who expose themselves to "ganking" by implying a game with RPG classes is somehow fundamentally differently teamwork principles than a game like FH. But sorry, the fundamentals are exactly the same. The principle of awareness, coordination, mutual support -- nothing different at all.

You simply get ganked when you or your team is stupid enough to let you ganked -- dude there's no way around recognizing this fact.

There is no 'magic excuse' to explain why FH teamplay is somehow different.



If 1v4 should not be possible in any game about teamwork then why in team-based games,am I able to pull this off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTCGy2Hs5MU&index=2&list=PLSSczDK2ZL1o94VuCM5LOcp4R9_Zwi2pX

One simple reason -- GUN.

If you really want a lengthy, academic, and historic explanation as to how the invention of personal firearms and the historic rise of ranged-warfare have fundamentally changed wars, I can give it to you.

Go to the same game, have everyone pull out a knife, and try knife fighting 1v4, and see how that goes, and then ponder to yourself what's so different between fighting with a knife and fighting with a gun, that makes it so much different.

But honestly, I don't think you're stupid. You probably already know how using a ranged-weapon totally changes the rules, compared to close-quarters combat with conventional non-firearm weapons, don't you? :)

Gray360UK
04-18-2017, 10:02 AM
Those are literally pre-defined 99% of the time.You have a healer,dps,& tank.This game does not have that kind of system.
Also,most of those MMO's have horrible PvP setups & are just tacked on.

You don't know much about World of Warcraft PvP from the sound of it.

Auztinito
04-18-2017, 10:13 AM
You're really grasping at straws here, man.

How is it having predefined class/roles any relevant? Or better yet, technically FH has roles, too. Vanguards, heavies, assassins and hybrids. And they all have unique traits, no?

You're literally coming up with anything to try and excuse the failures of people who expose themselves to "ganking" by implying a game with RPG classes is somehow fundamentally differently teamwork principles than a game like FH. But sorry, the fundamentals are exactly the same. The principle of awareness, coordination, mutual support -- nothing different at all.

You simply get ganked when you or your team is stupid enough to let you ganked -- dude there's no way around recognizing this fact.

There is no 'magic excuse' to explain why FH teamplay is somehow different.




One simple reason -- GUN.

If you really want a lengthy, academic, and historic explanation as to how the invention of personal firearms and the historic rise of ranged-warfare have fundamentally changed wars, I can give it to you.

Go to the same game, have everyone pull out a knife, and try knife fighting 1v4, and see how that goes, and then ponder to yourself what's so different between fighting with a knife and fighting with a gun, that makes it so much different.

But honestly, I don't think you're stupid. You probably already know how using a ranged-weapon totally changes the rules, compared to close-quarters combat with conventional non-firearm weapons, don't you? :)

I know the differences between these genres but you apparently don't.Hence you're the one grasping for straws.
Have you played MMO PvP before?They are barely played for the very reason not many people like MMO-styled PvP.Tons of people play online PvP otherwise CoD or Battlefield wouldn't be a big deal.
What unique traits?Heavy is slow,Hybrid is just a Hybrid,Assassin's are quick,& Vanguards are balanced.Nothing unique really.You break down the game way too far.By your logic Call of Duty is a teamwork-based FPS because it has teams & loadouts.Anyone who has played actual teamwork based shooters knows you can play those those games like one but they are not made with that in mind.That's like saying sports games are RPGs.You're trying to argue 4v1 wins no matter the circumstances but that should not be the case unless the game-play & setup are built that way from the start.This game is not the case.
This game has more in common with games like Paragon.You in particular preach about teamwork but you're against friendly fire being buffed up to make an actual difference because you want to be able to gang up for easy wins.I have no problem with ganging up or being ganged but you should still have to work as a team to take down one person not just swing recklessly at a ganged enemy.I highly doubt in actual combat they taught you to just swing your weapon however you like even when you outnumber your opponent.There is no "magic excuse" but ganging up efficiently requires teamwork and communication.Just spamming R2 at a surrounded opponent is not a strategy or a show of teamwork.That's like spamming grenades at 1 person because they might kill you.In case you didn't notice,this a fighting game not MOBA,MMORPG,or a Shooter.

I know the difference between them but you brought up shooters as one of your points for your argument.


You don't know much about World of Warcraft PvP from the sound of it.

Never cared much about WoW.I do play FFXIV but not for it's PvP.

Alustar.exe
04-18-2017, 11:53 AM
I know the differences between these genres but you apparently don't.Hence you're the one grasping for straws.
Have you played MMO PvP before?They are barely played for the very reason not many people like MMO-styled PvP.Tons of people play online PvP otherwise CoD or Battlefield wouldn't be a big deal.
What unique traits?Heavy is slow,Hybrid is just a Hybrid,Assassin's are quick,& Vanguards are balanced.Nothing unique really.You break down the game way too far.By your logic Call of Duty is a teamwork-based FPS because it has teams & loadouts.Anyone who has played actual teamwork based shooters knows you can play those those games like one but they are not made with that in mind.That's like saying sports games are RPGs.You're trying to argue 4v1 wins no matter the circumstances but that should not be the case unless the game-play & setup are built that way from the start.This game is not the case.
This game has more in common with games like Paragon.You in particular preach about teamwork but you're against friendly fire being buffed up to make an actual difference because you want to be able to gang up for easy wins.I have no problem with ganging up or being ganged but you should still have to work as a team to take down one person not just swing recklessly at a ganged enemy.I highly doubt in actual combat they taught you to just swing your weapon however you like even when you outnumber your opponent.There is no "magic excuse" but ganging up efficiently requires teamwork and communication.Just spamming R2 at a surrounded opponent is not a strategy or a show of teamwork.That's like spamming grenades at 1 person because they might kill you.In case you didn't notice,this a fighting game not MOBA,MMORPG,or a Shooter.

I know the difference between them but you brought up shooters as one of your points for your argument.



Never cared much about WoW.I do play FFXIV but not for it's PvP.

See that's the problem right there, you are arguing against things you said yourself you don't know anything about. The pvp in these games weren't "tacked on" as an after thought. Hell Tera and rift were centered around pvp.
Secondly for honor has more in common with MOBAs than anything else. It just happens to be action based

Auztinito
04-18-2017, 12:18 PM
See that's the problem right there, you are arguing against things you said yourself you don't know anything about. The pvp in these games weren't "tacked on" as an after thought. Hell Tera and rift were centered around pvp.
Secondly for honor has more in common with MOBAs than anything else. It just happens to be action based

Traditional MMO PvP are all level/gear based with emphasis put mostly on team synergy like having different classes to balance it out.FFXIV PvP is literally restricted to a certain amount of tanks,dps,& healers.DCUO encourages you play as Controller,Tank,or Healer because DPS is useless until a update made an official armor set for DPS.
Don't know what you're trying to say in bolded part.Paragon is a MOBA.
I have played team-based games & most have FF on to encourage you to work as a team instead just spamming 1 or 2 moves on a opponent that is outnumbered.Like I said.I have no problems with "ganking".I do have a problem when someone preaches about teamwork yet will not conform to it unless it benefits them.

Gray360UK
04-18-2017, 02:29 PM
Traditional MMO PvP are all level/gear based with emphasis put mostly on team synergy like having different classes to balance it out. FFXIV PvP is literally restricted to a certain amount of tanks,dps,& healers

FFXIV was very restricted as you say, I wouldn't call that traditional MMO PvP. Traditional MMO PvP is very like For Honor, with random PUG groups of any class, with widely varying gear and skill levels. World of Warcraft could be a complete gankfest where you got farmed for an entire match by a vastly superior team, for example. Teamwork could be completely absent.

kweassa1917
04-18-2017, 03:04 PM
FFXIV was very restricted as you say, I wouldn't call that traditional MMO PvP. Traditional MMO PvP is very like For Honor, with random PUG groups of any class, with widely varying gear and skill levels. World of Warcraft could be a complete gankfest where you got farmed for an entire match by a vastly superior team, for example. Teamwork could be completely absent.

As a matter of fact, I'd like someone to come up with an example of ANY PvP that features hand-held close range weapons and minimal ranged warfare that DOESN'T emphasize in FOCUSING the weakest member with overwhelming concentration of firepower, to kill off quickly, to force the opponent's into a numbers disadvantage snowballing.

From Ultima: Online back in '96, to FH in 2017 I really can't think of any game that has 4~5 people just stand there in a line and play 4~5 1v1s in a row.

Prophit618
04-18-2017, 03:10 PM
To the person who was asking who was wining 1v4s more than approximately 10% of the time: I certainly was.

Back before revenge nerf I used to almost hope for 1v4 situations, because it became easy mode. Easily 50-60% of the time I would come out of a 4 way ******** the victor. The times I wouldn't would be because 2 or more of them were also geared for revenge mode. Thus, the only solution to someone using broken revenge mode, was to use broken revenge mode (in as spammy a way as you could), because it was so overpowering that if you didn't, you basically auto-lost.

I'm much happier with my slim chances in a 1v4 now than I was then, and when I pull myself out of one (now more properly in the <5% range), it feels great instead of kinda boring.

As someone eloquently stated multiple pages ago, revenge was broken enough to make any combat situation an even playing field or tilted in your direction. That simply isn't how it should work. When your team loses 3 people, you should be at a disadvantage. I mean...that's how combat works. Lower skill level players were used to being given a crutch (with an assault rifle built into it), and now the mode has lost all of them because they don't have it.

The pop may be lower, but it's a healthier population at least.

Alustar.exe
04-18-2017, 03:28 PM
Traditional MMO PvP are all level/gear based with emphasis put mostly on team synergy like having different classes to balance it out.FFXIV PvP is literally restricted to a certain amount of tanks,dps,& healers.DCUO encourages you play as Controller,Tank,or Healer because DPS is useless until a update made an official armor set for DPS.
Don't know what you're trying to say in bolded part.Paragon is a MOBA.
I have played team-based games & most have FF on to encourage you to work as a team instead just spamming 1 or 2 moves on a opponent that is outnumbered.Like I said.I have no problems with "ganking".I do have a problem when someone preaches about teamwork yet will not conform to it unless it benefits them.

Your first line is wrong. The progression of content is gear/level driven, that does not mean the gameplay is such. Even in older mmos there is An emphasis on group, objective based pvp.
See the problem now is you aren't really arguing any point, but rather just stating arbitrary information, wether valid or not.


As a matter of fact, I'd like someone to come up with an example of ANY PvP that features hand-held close range weapons and minimal ranged warfare that DOESN'T emphasize in FOCUSING the weakest member with overwhelming concentration of firepower, to kill off quickly, to force the opponent's into a numbers disadvantage snowballing.

From Ultima: Online back in '96, to FH in 2017 I really can't think of any game that has 4~5 people just stand there in a line and play 4~5 1v1s in a row.

This pretty much sums it up, this topic isn't new, it's been around since pvp started.i can't count the times I've had scrubs yell at me to come 1v1 them cause I got a couple killing blows on them in a match and now they are butt hurt.

Dude_of_Valor
04-18-2017, 03:51 PM
In most online games, 3v1/4v1 etc, the one is at a huge disadvantage and so they should be.

Yes there is always that chance you make it out alive but that's the thing, there should only ever be a chance. Better skilled players will last longer than your average joe and that is fine.

Revenge is a useful tool but should never ever be relied on. If the match is 4v4, and your three team mates died, there in itself lies the problem.