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View Full Version : AI in ver. 2.04



Capt._Tenneal
07-21-2004, 08:42 AM
What's everyone's evaluation on the offline AI of 2.04 ? I hope it's not just me, but in some ways the AI must have regressed. The autopilot AI especially.

For example, I tried out a single mission and I was on autopilot on transit to the target area a long way away and only my plane tried to take a shortcut and went off in a different direction from the flight plan. The others in my flight stayed on course.

Another was when I played a base defence mission (scramble). In the middle of the fight, with the enemy still in the vicinity, several AI planes stopped fighting and began their landing pattern. Needless to say they were easy prey for the enemy planes.

I did notice better collision avoidance with the ground, though, so that's one positive.

Capt._Tenneal
07-21-2004, 08:42 AM
What's everyone's evaluation on the offline AI of 2.04 ? I hope it's not just me, but in some ways the AI must have regressed. The autopilot AI especially.

For example, I tried out a single mission and I was on autopilot on transit to the target area a long way away and only my plane tried to take a shortcut and went off in a different direction from the flight plan. The others in my flight stayed on course.

Another was when I played a base defence mission (scramble). In the middle of the fight, with the enemy still in the vicinity, several AI planes stopped fighting and began their landing pattern. Needless to say they were easy prey for the enemy planes.

I did notice better collision avoidance with the ground, though, so that's one positive.

SeaFireLIV
07-21-2004, 08:50 AM
Difficult to say on this, I came up behind a 109 who did nothing and hit him - he just jumped!

A second 109 I hit, again, the pilot just jumped!

I smoked another 109 and, thankfully the pilot didn`t jump... Still testing.

I think I`ve developed a new best m8. I am no2 I16 in a 4 squad. I found that no.4 was sticking to me like glue. He stayed high on my 5/6 oc all the while, ignoring fighters and bombers (that were flying around but not attacking me)as if he was my personal body guard!

Strange, because if I`m No.2 that usually means I should be wingie to No.1 and normally no one covers me. Also strange that he was ignoring all other situations - and I had NOT asked him to COVER me, you can`t anyway, because as no.2 the `Wingman` command doesn`t appear.

Ground avoidance does appear better....

Capt._Tenneal
07-21-2004, 08:58 AM
I have read that wingmen "protection AI" seems to have improved, so I'll test it out tonight. If it is that's good news.

Another trend I noticed last night : more head-on attacks. I don't know if it's the programmed skill of the AI pilots, but some of the missions I played last night I've tried out with previous patches and before two opponents will meet head-on and just pass each other and try to get into a good position for the next pass. Now they OPEN FIRE ! Now I have to be on my toes with encounters like this. That's good for me, in a way, reminds me to be alert at all times.

moksha
07-21-2004, 10:58 AM
Is it possible now to get your squadron/flight/whatever to join in on a head-on vs bombers? (Unable to test for a week or so‚¨)
cheers

SeaFireLIV
07-21-2004, 11:07 AM
The only way i could see that working is ordering your group to `Rejoin`. Choose the attack formation and spacing you want, then making at frontal attack, when near enough order your pilots to `Attack bombers`...

I have seen them do it by themselves when they `feel` like it.

Might work.

triggerhappyfin
07-21-2004, 11:08 AM
I tested the patch right away after DL.

Flew some of the single missions and experiensced that wingman really took care of my 6 and yelled warnings and told me when he got the enemy attackin me.

This was something new to me as AI wingmen usually just follow close and let anyone shoot at me.

Patch looks good so far, pity i‚¬īm not been able to join HL for two days http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif.

Heads-on firing was not a safe practice after all ?
Jussi Huotari: It was not specially recommended‚.....
And later, as the Russians were armed with 20mm cannons, it was unwise to meet them heads-on

Capt._Tenneal
07-26-2004, 08:39 AM
OK, after getting in some more playing time this weekend, the AI has been doing screwy things.

After not having seen it for the last several patches (from 1.21, I think) I have encountered planes colliding in formation again. Specifically involving my plane. I was flying with a dozen planes (three flights of 4 planes) to a target and one of the planes from the other flight just swerved into my path and took me and himself out !

Another incident : a plane was making a belly landing because of a shot up engine. His wingman followed him faithfully all the way to the crash landing, pulled up at the last minute to avoid colliding with his leader, then promptly lawndarted !

Skullin
07-26-2004, 10:15 AM
Strange, i haven't noticed much difference at all. I never use auto-pilot though, and i fly as the flight leader. Wingman might be better, but haven't noticed. i haven't had a collision with anyone in a long time. Only thing i noticed that i was coming in for a landing a little fast, and my wingman didn't pull up ontime and ate dirt, but i should have told him to get lost i suppose. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

robban75
07-26-2004, 10:30 AM
The AI flying LW fighters is no contest whatsoever. It's really sad. It seems as though the AI can only be aggressive and dangerous in Yaks, La's and Spits. Good turning/climbing abilities determines whether a plane will be effective in the AI's hands. Very simple, and very sad. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

If reality was like this, the J8 would be the only fighter anyone could ever need, appart from the Me 163 of course. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

Udidtoo
07-26-2004, 10:32 AM
Another thing I have been seeing far to much of from AI with 2.04.

When you are assigned bomber escort and the planes you are assigned are fighters, i.e. Lagg 3's, 190's, I-16's and their starting point is from the same airfield as yours.

Switch on your auto pilot and go to friendly externals. You can see them and hear them continuiously throttle down until they begin to crash into the ground. I don't mean Mts either. Perfectly flat ground. They will idle down so slow that they just can't remain airborn any longer and with radio chatter you can sometines hear the No.1 saying "Your to low pull up"

Between this and the insane looping trying to match low speed with crippled enemy planes, then crashing into the ground behavior a lot of my offline entertainment has gone out the window with this patch.

I guess we will have to start 22 page b1tch fests in ORR to get some joy back into offline play, it seems to work wonders for other complaints.

Sorry about the negativity but I get really steamed when I seem to see us people stuck in dialup hell without a good online option regulated to second class citizen status with each consecutive patch.

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

GH_Klingstroem
07-26-2004, 10:59 AM
Robban has a very good point there!!The only really aggressive AI you will find are russian AC and very good turners! So many times have I seen p47 and p51s and fw190s, p38s and 109s just flying around with their wingmen after the first pass, doing nothing as if there was no dogfight going on!

SeaFireLIV
07-26-2004, 11:13 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Udidtoo:

I guess we will have to start 22 page b1tch fests in ORR to get some joy back into offline play, it seems to work wonders for other complaints.

Sorry about the negativity but I get really steamed when I seem to see us people stuck in dialup hell without a good online option regulated to second class citizen status with each consecutive patch.

QUOTE]

Good points you make. I am on cable but strongly insist tha Oleg does not stop working on offline AI! one of the things I do dislike is when you hear these incessant whines that are actually VERY selfish because they tend to dwell on individual fan boy planes...

Now a whine that`s about improving AI and immersiveness would benefit EVERYONE! Those are worth 22 page b1tch fests.

Capt._Tenneal
07-26-2004, 12:08 PM
I have to make this disclaimer for now : all the screwey AI behaviour I've seen so far was in old single missions and linear campaigns (like "The Real Deal") I've downloaded in the past and tried out in 2.04 . I have not tried out any flying in the 2.04 DGEN yet, so I don't know if it's just a factor of old missions not working with 2.04 or what ?

LEXX_Luthor
07-26-2004, 12:20 PM
robban:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Good turning/climbing abilities determines whether a plane will be effective in the AI's hands.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>GH_Klingstroem:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Robban has a very good point there!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
robban slipped up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif as he knows Fb109 has good climbing abilities and the Fb109 Females also have good turning abilities.

Apparently nobody here at teh ubi.com watches AI from External View, as Fb109 Email with [almost] unlimited MG ammo will aggresively chase out-of-ammo Russian planes...

...not that those light MGs do much, but sometimes they do take out a Yak or two, from time to time.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
07-26-2004, 12:49 PM
Now, with proper historical use of AI skill, setting year 1941 Emails to Vet/Ace and year 1941 VVS to Average/Rookie, one can get...mmm...roughly "historical" combat results.

How to get old timer VVS onwhiners to fly as Average or worse (combat) pilots though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif There must ba a way--server set joystick and view control settings perhaps.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

_VR_ScorpionWorm
07-26-2004, 01:28 PM
Ive noticed a few things screwy with offline built campaigns more than Dgen campaigns. I was flying the Hell Hawks camp. and number 3 got too close to me and pulled up to do a loop at 650meters, fully loaded http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif...needless to say he lawndarted rather quickly. My wingies seem to be more aggressive than usual, Ive tried to get them to attack bombers head on by telling them to rejoin then fly level and head on with the bombers and telling them to attack, they break off and still come behind.

Udidtoo, I have a 26.4kbps connection and I play just fine online, especially when connecting to squadmates in the UK. The only thing that hurts my ping is having skin download on and running TeamSpeak. My best connections are to WarClouds, GreaterGreen, Wingwalkers and a few other rooms that show up often, you just have to connect to a server in your area, I connect just fine to servers in the US/Canada.

http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Scorpion08/Hurri-1.jpg

www.vultures-row.com (http://www.vultures-row.com)

Udidtoo
07-27-2004, 06:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by _VR_ScorpionWorm:
Ive noticed a few things screwy with offline built campaigns more than Dgen campaigns. I was flying the Hell Hawks camp. and number 3 got too close to me and pulled up to do a loop at 650meters, fully loaded http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif...needless to say he lawndarted rather quickly. My wingies seem to be more aggressive than usual, Ive tried to get them to attack bombers head on by telling them to rejoin then fly level and head on with the bombers and telling them to attack, they break off and still come behind.

Udidtoo, I have a 26.4kbps connection and I play just fine online, especially when connecting to squadmates in the UK. The only thing that hurts my ping is having skin download on and running TeamSpeak. My best connections are to WarClouds, GreaterGreen, Wingwalkers and a few other rooms that show up often, you just have to connect to a server in your area, I connect just fine to servers in the US/Canada.

http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Scorpion08/Hurri-1.jpg

http://www.vultures-row.com&lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt; (http://www.vultures-row.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>)

Well you see, the problem isn't my ISP really as its the Phone Line to this area. I capped phoneline to accent it, as in singuler, as in uno 1.

Our home is almost 26 miles off a paved road, out the old Stanton-Octave mine. For any fans of Old West history this is where the infamous Stanton gang hidout which should give you an idea of how remote we are here.

We have what is called a shared line here which is modern speak for party line. While they are great for knowing yor neighbor uses 900 numbers and general evesdropping they SUCK for being online.

Il-2 skins is a perfect example. I have 16 other homes in this general area (being not more than 10 miles away) Lets say I'm DLing one of Hammereds skins, his are generally over 1000 kb's. When I start one it usually says 9 minutes 2o seconds give or take. Now one of my neighbors dials someone or goes online, it just jumped to 14 minutes 12 seconds......another person picks up, make that an even 20. Getting a picture now?

I still laugh about the 1st time I ever tried an online game. I knew nada about upload times or ping, zilch really. I went into a server trying to play MOH and I thought I was having a flashback, everthing was in this jerky slowmo fashion, I saw a guy run across the street and pulled off a shot......nothing?? pull the trigger again and ..nothing? Maybe 20 seconds later I hear bang.....bang lol
Then I start to run around looking for others, and can't figure out why one second I'm in a doorway, next I'm all the way across the room trying to run thru the wall??

Finally I see this guy moving in a normal fashion and I'm trying to turn towards him and he say"So your the **** messing up the server."

He shoots me 1 time and then he just watches for like 10 seconds then he types " Dude, that is one sucka$$ connection" He then pulled out a .45 and beat me to death while he laughed and typed "Dial up sucks"

That was without anyone else being on the line as it was 2:00 am or so, it gets worse during normal hours.

To sum up, until that Candian satellite thing Blairgowrie posted on last week gets up and running, unless I wish to pay Earthlink Sat. or Direct PC. $85.00 a month and purchase around $400.00 of hardware I am literelly stuck with what ever offline serving Oleg and Co. dish up for me and this course isn't tasting all that yummy.

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

Bearcat99
07-27-2004, 06:55 AM
You have to set the skill level too... I notice depending on the skill level the dumb stuff decreases... on both sides.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959) | MUDMOVERS (http://magnum-pc.netfirms.com/mudmovers/index.htm)

IMMERSION BABY!!

SeaFireLIV
07-27-2004, 07:51 AM
I have to agree with Bearcat99 there. there are a few levels to AI and I find that while flying offline missions different things can happen...

While flying low-level with I16s I noticed my leader clear the ground easily, but then no 3 hit the ground, but no 4 did not. Sometimes the odd AI plane will be a little slow to reacting enemy aircraft whule some others will be very quick and sharp.

This is why I always say QMB never gives a good idea of AI effectiveness cos only ONE level of AI can be set per squad, where in Campaign, EACH aircraft can have a different AI level, I believe.

As for enemy AI, they are VERY good still.
An enmy AI 109 took me high and far up (to about 3000) before turning to take me on. This is EXACTLY what a good online fighter tried with me ONLINE that very same day! The similarity in tactics were quite uncanny.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/SigHarry.jpg

Woooo!

TonyEH
07-27-2004, 07:57 AM
Its not just the AI in 2.04 its the AI full stop. I've posted a mail about this on the Oleg ready room. But have yet to receive an answer to it.

I think an improvement to the AI is absolutely essential to FB's and PF's survival. If we are lumbered with the unchallenging AI that we have now with PF, I probably won't bother buying it.

Which would be a shame cos I am, well, was looking forward to it. But if the AI continue to fly B'n'Z planes like they do now then there will be no point as there will be no game.

Whil flying for the Allies, theres no challenge to the human player, because the 109's and 190's don't even try to evade fire and the simply don't fly their aircraft at their top speed in the combat area.

I absolutely should NOT be able to easilly catch up on a 109 in my I-16 or I-153, but I can, every time and shoot them down.

This leads to an utterly boring and unconvincing offline game experience, and consequently a pointless exercise.

But when flying for the German's against the more nimble Allied fighters, the human player has to either dumb down the enemy AI so the friendly AI can have a chance, making again a boring experience or else lose the enitre friendly squad, and his own plane too into the bargain, quite often.

I have suggested to Oleg that he introduce a new AI level, a "super ace" level if you will. This AI level could be built on the existing "ace" AI, but will force the AI to fly their aircraft at the top speed in a dogfight, shoot very well, use very fast evasive action to make it really tough to get on their tail (absolutely essential) and reform at top speed when the "reform" command is given, to allow the human and his squad to dis engage during a fight.

These additions would improve the offline game immensely and make getting a kill on a German plane far harder and therefore make the game tougher and more enjoyable.

It doesn't matter if, at the end of the day, a 109, with a "super ace" (or whatever its called) AI level out turns a Yak1, the game will be better as the game will be tougher. At the moment the game is a tedious experience, when the layer flys for the Allies, because the German AI simply cannot fly the German aircraft in a manner that offers the player a challenge in the offline game.

And if some people don't want to use teh "super ace" AI level, then they can stick to the present AI, thats already there.

Tony

SeaFireLIV
07-27-2004, 10:51 AM
Have you tried increasing the difficulty level of the AI for the Campaign? There is not just the basic AI, but an OVERALL DIFFICULTY setting.

It can be done in the ini file (instructions in Readme). Or use IL2Stab or IL2 Manager which makes doing it a little easier.

I find the LW very challenging in my I16 on the harder levels. I find myself bailing many times or running desperately for home (A tough job since they are faster!)
They will attempt to B & Z me (something they NEVER used to do). The good B&Zers can blow you up without you ever knowing they were there.

You cannot just continously outturn them either because what ofetn happens is 1 or 2 of the LW AI will break off and come at you from the OPPOSITE direction or try to cut you off at an angle!

On the most difficult level, it is VERY difficult to survive in the I16 unless ...

a: You have backup (and skilled backup too).

b. You know your I16 very well and use it!

They are very challenging. Try the higher overall level adjustment, I think that`s what you are missing.

p.s I also fly with icons off.

Capt._Tenneal
07-27-2004, 11:26 AM
I'll give that a try tonight (if I have time), SeaFire. Like I mentioned, I've only noticed wierd AI on older single missions I have and those have pre-set skill levels for friendly and enemy AI. I haven't tried DGEN out yet with 2.04, and DGEN at least has the adjustable skill level.

Worst case scenario, I'll reinstall FB & AEP only, patch them to 2.01/2.04, install BOE and patch and keep it that way. I'll sure miss the 3rd party missions though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Udidtoo
07-27-2004, 02:10 PM
The only trouble with adjusting the AI level in configuration file, unless I have completely misunderstood what I read was if I go easy setting it turns up the friendly AI 1 notch but dumbs down the enemy 1.

Like wise if I set it to hard, enemy smarter by 1 , friendly mates dumbed down by 1 and trust me, the squads I been flying with,12th Guards red, III JG on blue. If they get any dumber those helmets won't be for flying, they will be for the "special school" and they will all be tied togather at the waist for lunch and recess.

I need a setting that increases the skill level of both my AI squad and enemy. Because for me a large part of the immersion is keeping my drooling idiots alive from mission to mission. I let a good amount of sure kills go to come to the aide of AI friendlies. I just wish they would stop repaying me by committing suicide on the next run. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

_VR_ScorpionWorm
07-27-2004, 02:54 PM
Ouch, just read your post Udidtoo, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Adding to the AI, I was flying a Stuka campaign last night, Stalingrad, and we were escorted by 8 Italina aircraft? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif (thats another story, dont know if they flew over their) anyways, all 8 fighters got in a furball with 4 Migs, we were on our own, we got to target and were attaced by 4 more Migs, for some reason in every bomber mission the AI ALWAYS goes after me....and Im not the lead. I had to drop my bomb and RTB due to damage, after i landed I noticed the other 3 Stukas where still in the target area CHASING the Migs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif , they shot one down. Of course after watching the Italian MC.202s in the DF they couldnt hit **** even at .5 meters away, Im guessing this has to do with thier skill level. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif its does seem as though the AI is VERY aggressive...and for some reason it extends to the Stukas as well. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://img55.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Scorpion08/Hurri-1.jpg

www.vultures-row.com (http://www.vultures-row.com)

LEXX_Luthor
07-27-2004, 03:40 PM
mmm, not trying to contradict my earlier Whine, but, oh well...

I recently saw Oleg post that Player autopilot "AI" is not the same as regular AI. That said, when turning on autopilot in big QMB test dogfights, the autopilot often keeps the Fb109 Email about 250km/hr (not good). But the K model the autopilot likes to keep faster, like maybe 400km/hr (better). mmm

mmmm

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Bluedog72
07-27-2004, 11:25 PM
Regarding AI 109s and 190s not flying the way they should in combat....

I have found a lot of missions that are available for download have the 109s and 190s waypoints set at the default speed of 300km/h....just above take off speed.
Not entirely sure, but I think DGen may do exactly the same thing, ie set normalfly waypoints with a speed of 300kph.
I do know that the differance between how the AI flies and fights a 109 between speed set at 300, and the way it does the same with speed set at 400+ is quite a bit.
Then again, I might be imagining the whole thing.
Blue

Bakelit
07-28-2004, 01:48 AM
I also think that the AI needs improvements.
Playing a longer campaign you see a lot of immersion killers.
There are quite a lot of off liners, they are just not as loud as the onliners.

I don't expect many changes anymore, even if I like the super AI idea, but I hope the best for BoB.

A BoB with "just" state of the art graphics and good online play without better historical AI or offline immersion will not do well for me.

That's the thing I'm waiting for. We KNOW that the aircraft are going to be first class, but how about the AI, radio and the weather ?

JG52Russkly
07-28-2004, 03:58 AM
Agree with strange AI behaviour, although I too have not tested this with the 2.04 patch.

I've been flying a few BoE campaigns recently due to limited time for on-line, and I've actually stopped because I've been frustrated by AI behaviour resulting in large parts of the various squadrons getting themselves shot down:

Spitfire IXe: Bulge Campaign

Armed with bombs (!?), I'm flying #4, and after about 10 minutes #3 dives into the ground (happens - engine failure, or similar, I suppose). A few minutes later, #2 veers to port and takes out 1 (flight's getting really unlucky at this point). I'm left alone and RTB, 'cos bombing an airfield alone in a Spit does not seem like a good idea! Happens every time I retry the mission (even after shutting down FB and re-starting), and I'm loath to lose 3 good pilots from the squadron.

P-51: Pre-D-Day Campaign

A few missions into the campaign, the flight is armed with bombs (!?) for the second mission in a row. Crossing the coast, vicious AAA opens up...and the flight leader leads the rest of the boys into the hailstorm withough changing altitude, heading, or making any manouevres to throw the gunners off their aim! They all go down, and there's nothing I can do about it. Happens time after time, and again, I don't want to lose the pilots.

FW190: D-Day-ish Campaign

Returning from an airfield bombing mission, the whole Staffel is in its landing sequence when bounced by 4 P-47s. Great scenario, and I'm sure very historically accurate. Except that the LW pilots simply continue their landing pattern; no-one breaks off to meet the attackers! They all die, needless to say. Again, lots of good squadron pilots killed.

Furthermore, I have started these campaigns as a 1st Lieutenant or equivalent, yet always seem to play wingman in a flight consisting of odd mixes like a Lt. Col., a Major, and a Flight Sergeant. It's always bugged me how the rankings and squadron positions seem unrealistic, but as a 1st (Flight) Lieutenant, I'd certainly expect to be leading a flight with Pilot Officers/Flight Sergeants as my numbers 2 & 4 with a Flying Officer as 3. There always seem to be Colonels and Majors flying in single or dual flights - not that common, I'd guess.

Small offline moans, but it has always been a criticism that IL2 offline lacked immersion, compared to, say, Red Baron 3D or EAW. On-line is obviously where IL2 is aimed, and it IS great fun, but on-line alone (squads are excellent) can also be frustrating and unrealistic as each pilot goes it alone apart from the dominant squad players, who take out singletons like me with gay abandon. Sometimes a bit of offline is required for a different experience, but it can be disappointing.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/JG52Uther/JG52Russkly.jpg

Capt._Tenneal
07-28-2004, 08:14 AM
Ditto for me on the ranks, Russkly. When I start a campaign, I want to fly lead (so I can better control my wingman), but I don't want too high of a rank right away either (so I can get the benefits of working my way up the promotion ladder). I think flying the # 3 plane would be perfect for me at the start of a long campaign (like the Russian or German fighter campaign).

The only problem is I don't know what rank to pick to get that # 3 plane. This is what I find out DGEN assigns to you :

Sergeant or 2nd Lt. : # 4 plane
1st Lt. or Capt. : # 2 plane
Major : # 1 plane
Lt. Col or Col. : # 1 plane plus control of the entire group.

SeaFireLIV
07-28-2004, 08:19 AM
Yea I like to work ranks up too. It`s more satisfying to make leader after some hard fights.

It`s a pity that if you are third in line and all your superiors get killed, you still can`t take FIELD command for that mission, even with AI wingman sticking to you.

Surely it would be an easy fix. I did send an email about it, but other things probably take his mind off stuff like this.

GregSM
07-28-2004, 08:47 AM
Hi all,


The AI in campaign play can be tuned discreetly by appending the following section to the appropriate .db file:

[Skill]
Blue:A95,V1,N2
Red:A1,V1,N1

"A": ace level; "V": veteran level; and "N": normal level. Such commands supersede campaign defaults, which are:

(Aces,Vets,Reg,Rookies)
1941
Red: 5,5,10,80 Blue: 15,50,25,10

1942
Red: 5,10,10,75 Blue: 20,50,20,10

1943
Red: 10,15,20,55 Blue: 20,40,30,10

1944
Red: 15,20,30,35 Blue: 20,30,30,10

1945
Red: 20,20,30,30 Blue: 10,20,30,40

Please note that I've not tested to confirm that the commands are still functional in the current version of DGen. But then I don't see why not.


Cheers,


Greg

Capt._Tenneal
07-28-2004, 09:02 AM
Interesting. I understand the campaign defaults, which seem to be the ratio of pilots of that level in a given year (e.g. Red 1941 5,5, 10, 80 meaning in 1941 the chance of meeting a type of Red pilot skill will be 5 % ace, 5 % vet, 10 % normal, 80 % rookie) .

How does

[Skill]
Blue:A95,V1,N2
Red:A1,V1,N1

modify those values ?

GregSM
07-28-2004, 09:35 AM
Hi Capt Tenneal,


"A": ace level; "V": veteran level; and "N": "normal" level. Presumably, the latter "normal" setting equates to average skill level, while the units are percentages of 100, the total being complete by the unspecified "rookie" level.

The information I've posted is derived from a very old message posted to SimHQ by a fellow who worked in some capacity on the campaign engine. I can't recall his name but the exact text of his message reads:

"[Skill]
not active in all campaigns, but a means to alter the average skill level of each side. By default, german skill is highest at the beginning and is degrading as the war progresses, and russian skill is very low at the beginning and quite high at the end. If you dont like that, here is the place to change it.
For example:
[Skill]
Blue:A95,V1,N2
Red:A1,V1,N1
This is what you find in Finland41.dat. It shows that Blue (finnish) will have 95% ace pilots, 1%veterans and 2% normal.
Red will have 1% each ace, veteran and normal and 97% green pilots (poor Red). This setup will cause some extremely one sided battles for blue.
But keep in mind that campaignDifficulty settings in the .ini file will override this setting."


Cheers,


Greg

GregSM
07-28-2004, 11:06 AM
Hi,


"The AI flying LW fighters is no contest whatsoever. It's really sad. It seems as though the AI can only be aggressive and dangerous in Yaks, La's and Spits. Good turning/climbing abilities determines whether a plane will be effective in the AI's hands. Very simple, and very sad."


While this assertion may once have enjoyed some legitimacy, it no longer does, and hasn't for some time. I test the proficiency of the AI in handling various types by setting up quick missions comprising for each side a pair of aces, a pair of veterans, and a final pair of average level pilots. To negate my own influence, I engage autopilot for my machine. The results of certain scenarios belie the old (and obviously loaded) claim that "Luftwaffe AI is porked". For example, FW 190 A4's handily defeat Yak 1B's, despite the latter's smaller turning radius and general superiority in low speed manoeuvre. I've just run ten trials, at 3000 M, with neither team being afforded tactical advantage. Team Blue won five of the trials; Team Red, three; and the remaining two were draws. In total, fourteen Yaks survived to land safely to their bases, while twenty-one FW's were able to do the same.

Further, I find that when altitude is adjusted to 5000 M and upwards, to the benefit of the FW and to the detriment of the Yak, the former do better still, as one might expect.

That said, there remain scenarios that produce curious results. The I-153, for instance, especially the type equipped with cannon, will defeat nearly any opponent.


Cheers,


Greg

Skullin
07-28-2004, 11:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The only problem is I don't know what rank to pick to get that # 3 plane. This is what I find out DGEN assigns to you :

Sergeant or 2nd Lt. : # 4 plane
1st Lt. or Capt. : # 2 plane
Major : # 1 plane
Lt. Col or Col. : # 1 plane plus control of the entire group. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, i've tried to work up the ranks before too, but i'll go up a couple, see that i'm the highest ranking officer in the flight, yet still get the #4 plane. happened a couple times to me, so there are definitely some bugs to be worked out in there. That's why i take the lead right from the get-go now. Plus my squad is much more deadly with me calling the shots. Some flak bothering you? just cruz over it and order your AI suboordinates to clear it for you, then order them out of there, so you can get the good stuff... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif