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IendZombies
04-05-2017, 07:12 PM
to start, this is not a thread for crying and complaining. All I am trying to do in this thread is vent my opinion and start a productive conversation and debate(yes, descending opinions are welcome) regarding the current state of the PK and the upcoming "nerf"

Firstly, I would like to be clear, I do appreciate the development team looking into the character. However, simply cutting back the damage on PK's dashing heavy-strikes is not going to weaken her on a high level of play. I have personally logged over 250 hours in 4v4 modes and over 75 hours of game play in duel and brawl, I can tell you honestly, it is the PK's obscenely fast light attacks and zone in combination with her ridiculous effective ability to back dash, lighting quick, away from a negative situation that is the problem. The PK has essential no need to block in here current state, the PK is the only characters that can leap into combat and initiate with 12 and 9 frame attacks then jump back without any threat of damage. She is honestly to hard to punish, even while exhausted due to said back dodge and even while being aggressive with super difficult to parry lights.

now, I think it is important to expand on why I feel less damage on the PK's dash heavy-striking is NOT the answer on a high level. Before this, I would like throw out this idea to the DEVS:
the majority of players on this game play at an average level or lower level of skill ability. Spending almost one hundred hours in these skill rating groups myself, I can tell you, the dash strikes on any assassin are OP, that is why the majority of your data is telling you the damage is coming from those animations. the majority of your player base is casual players, these players crutch on these moves because other casuals cant block or parry that well yet. In addition, some casuals are too aggressive and will throw out unnecessary heavies that can easily be side step doge attacked. (I have been there).

back to my point, when players begin to get into the top level of play, (greater that 70% win-rate PvP... do not look at your menu stats I am taking REAL FHtracker PvP ones)

good PKs wont even bother using the dash strikes. This is because the dash strikes are the only move in the PK kit that is unsafe and constantly punishable, players like me will parry that crap EVERY TIME. In conclusion, a Nerf to dash strikes DOES NOT fix the problem.

my solution:
second light in the peacekeeper light chain becomes 15 frames instead of 12.
second half of PK zone can no longer be canceled.
PK dodge distance reduced by 5%.
(all characters) exhausted characters dodge becomes slowed down by 15%, and recover time between dodges is delayed by 10%.
buff PKs dodge strike damage by up to 50% honestly IDC how much, at-least I can punish this animation, fair risk reward.

Blasto95
04-05-2017, 07:20 PM
theres alot of threads going around about the PK chnages..these are one of the very few ive seen that are just way over the top...

You dont want PK nerfed, you want her obliterated, never to be seen from again...

Please tell me how a PK stands a chance against anybody with these changes. Shes got one move...Parry+GB...you know just the same thing that every other hero goes for.
You want to buff the one move that you say is the easiest to defend against and can parry every time. But want everything else to come with a flat out nerf.

Its a shame ive heard they are considering removing ZA+Cancel. A Damage+Speed Nerf and something done to revenge ZA spam from everyone would been a better change.

Burn-The-Sinner
04-05-2017, 07:20 PM
Delete her with fire!

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-05-2017, 07:32 PM
Just make her second attack 15 frames, and make her ZA punishable like the Warden's. Also increase her 2 R1 recovery time

IendZombies
04-05-2017, 07:44 PM
theres alot of threads going around about the PK chnages..these are one of the very few ive seen that are just way over the top...

You dont want PK nerfed, you want her obliterated, never to be seen from again...

Please tell me how a PK stands a chance against anybody with these changes. Shes got one move...Parry+GB...you know just the same thing that every other hero goes for.
You want to buff the one move that you say is the easiest to defend against and can parry every time. But want everything else to come with a flat out nerf.

Its a shame ive heard they are considering removing ZA+Cancel. A Damage+Speed Nerf and something done to revenge ZA spam from everyone would been a better change.

1. she still will have the fast light combo in the game.

first strike 12 frames, second strike 15 frames. 15 frames is the same as Orochi and Warden top light... let that sink in. 12 frames on her first light is under 400ms. The average reaction time of a male between 14-23 is 450-470ms. the average gamer will still literally have to guess to parry it. Having both at 12 frames is too strong.

2. She will still have the farthest doge in the game. however, no longer by such a wide margin.

3. She could potential have the highest damage heavy strikes in the game. Depending on how much they buff the heavy dash-strikes hypothetically.

4. she maintains all her super powerful bleed effects.

5. her GB+bleed will be unaffected and remain one of the most powerful guard break combos.

6. she will still have the fastest zone attack in the the game, one that begins with 9 freaking frames.

need I go on?
I didn't realize my Nerf what so harsh... really? 25% decrease to the SECOND swing of the fastest light combo in the game? I am open to letting you PK mains keep the initiating light exactly the same.
A 5% decrease to the farthest dodge in the game? come on... I even buffed her in other places to compensate. the difference is.... I buffed her in places where the risk reward is equal. the PK back dodge has no risk right now and is super rewarding.
besides, the exhausted Nerfs applies to everyone... we all should be getting punished if we go into the grey IMO.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-05-2017, 07:47 PM
1. she still will have the fast light combo in the game.

first strike 12 frames, second strike 15 frames. 15 frames is the same as Orochi and Warden top light... let that sink in. 12 frames on her first light is under 400ms. The average reaction time of a male between 14-23 is 450-470ms. the average gamer will still literally have to guess to parry it. Having both at 12 frames is too strong.

2. She will still have the farthest doge in the game. however, no longer by such a wide margin.

3. She could potential have the highest damage heavy strikes in the game. Depending on how much they buff the heavy dash-strikes hypothetically.

4. she maintains all her super power bleed effects.

5. her GB+bleed will be unaffected and remain one of the most power guard break combos.

6. she will still have the fastest zone attack in the the game, one that begins with 9 freaking frames.

need I go on?
I didn't realize my Nerf what so harsh... really? 25% decrease to the SECOND swing of the fastest light combo in the game? I am open to letting you PK mains keep the initiating light exactly the same.
A 5% decrease to the farthest dodge in the game? come on... I even buffed her in other places to compensate. the difference is.... I buffed her in places where the risk reward is equal. the PK back dodge has no risk right now and is super rewarding.
besides, the exhausted Nerfs applies to everyone... we all should be getting punished if we go into the grey IMO.

Her first attack is 15 frames I believe currently, second is 12

IendZombies
04-05-2017, 07:49 PM
Just make her second attack 15 frames, and make her ZA punishable like the Warden's. Also increase her 2 R1 recovery time

however, no need to increase recovery time between R1 lights, it breaks the character... she needs to let the lights rip fast, however they should be some what punishable IMO. As of right now, double 12 frame lights is not really punishable, at least with the second becoming 15 frames, more people will have a better chance to parry the PK during this chain and punish.

IendZombies
04-05-2017, 07:51 PM
Her first attack is 15 frames I believe currently, second is 12

it has been tested by a fellow on youtube, frame data says both lights in her chain are 12 frames.

CandleInTheDark
04-05-2017, 07:51 PM
A bunch of us PK mains have been saying similar, I have no good grasp of the numbers so I have never quantified it and don't know how much difference what you are saying will do so I have no real answer to that but one or more of less damage, more time between chains and less dodge (one or more or some mix of those three) and actually punishable on exhaustion has pretty much been where my thought has been. The only reason I haven't suggested speed decrease myself was because the devs flatout said they didn't want to touch that on the warrior's den. In any case, the first thought I and another had over the nerf was exactly the same, nerfing dodges will only push more use of light attack.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-05-2017, 07:54 PM
however, no need to increase recovery time between R1 lights, it breaks the character... she needs to let the lights rip fast, however they should be some what punishable IMO. As of right now, double 12 frame lights is not really punishable, at least with the second becoming 15 frames, more people will have a better chance to parry the PK during this chain and punish.

It wouldn't really break the character, it would help counter the R1 spam that everyone hates. It's a chain of 2 R1s not a infinite chain. She can rip out lights faster than conq, who has an infinite chain.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-05-2017, 07:58 PM
it has been tested by a fellow on youtube, frame data says both lights in her chain are 12 frames.

Pardon me, I kept hearing that the first was 15 and the second was 12, but that makes her even more broken.

CandleInTheDark
04-05-2017, 08:01 PM
As far as I was aware 15 was the official number as well but yeah 12 12 is bad. It has been what I and some others have been making noise about because I love the character, dual wielding assassin knight, I would be maining her even if she were bottom tier, but I hate spammy PKs.

IendZombies
04-05-2017, 08:03 PM
It wouldn't really break the character, it would help counter the R1 spam that everyone hates. It's a chain of 2 R1s not a infinite chain. She can rip out lights faster than conq, who has an infinite chain.

alright, so how much of a delay between lights? hypothetically, if a recovery time Nerf between light chains happened, I would no longer think it is fair to slow down her second light attack in the chain.

IendZombies
04-05-2017, 08:06 PM
As far as I was aware 15 was the official number as well but yeah 12 12 is bad. It has been what I and some others have been making noise about because I love the character, dual wielding assassin knight, I would be maining her even if she were bottom tier, but I hate spammy PKs.

however, if this is the case, it makes things harder to balance, because I feel as an initiator, the PK should have a fast first strike that is hard to parry, but moving both her lights to 15 would make parrying her too easy.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-05-2017, 08:07 PM
alright, so how much of a delay between lights? hypothetically, if a recovery time Nerf between light chains happened, I would no longer think it is fair to slow down her second light attack in the chain.

just a simple 200ish MS extra, enough to stop spam, but still allow a good PK to utilize the lights. She still needs to be slowed slightly, as she can't be reacted to currently.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-05-2017, 08:09 PM
however, if this is the case, it makes things harder to balance, because I feel as an initiator, the PK should have a fast first strike that is hard to parry, but moving both her lights to 15 would making parrying too easy.

The Valk has 15 frames lights, and she is just as you say, hard to parry, but balanced.

CandleInTheDark
04-05-2017, 08:13 PM
The Valk has 15 frames lights, and she is just as you say, hard to parry, but balanced.

The nobushi feels similar as well. The only thing that makes me lean to 12 rather than 15 for the first (second definitely needs to not be 12) is that we have to get closer than the valk and the nobushi and the light isn't on a dodge so we have to be in that range or know they are coming into that range before throwing. If they don't want to touch the speed of the attacks themselves, I have always said the recovery time otherwise is another option because the other heroes do have tools to put her back at their range but they never get a chance to use them.

IendZombies
04-05-2017, 08:14 PM
just a simple 200ish MS extra, enough to stop spam, but still allow a good PK to utilize the lights. She still needs to be slowed slightly, as she can't be reacted to currently.

200ms? that seems like a lot to me.... and slow down her light combo in addition?? that makes her seem trash tier. 100ms delay at most. only slow the second light IMO, the speed of the first light is necessary for her to be an initiator

Blasto95
04-05-2017, 08:16 PM
1. she still will have the fast light combo in the game.

first strike 12 frames, second strike 15 frames. 15 frames is the same as Orochi and Warden top light... let that sink in. 12 frames on her first light is under 400ms. The average reaction time of a male between 14-23 is 450-470ms. the average gamer will still literally have to guess to parry it. Having both at 12 frames is too strong.

2. She will still have the farthest doge in the game. however, no longer by such a wide margin.

3. She could potential have the highest damage heavy strikes in the game. Depending on how much they buff the heavy dash-strikes hypothetically.

4. she maintains all her super power bleed effects.

5. her GB+bleed will be unaffected and remain one of the most power guard break combos.

6. she will still have the fastest zone attack in the the game, one that begins with 9 freaking frames.

need I go on?
I didn't realize my Nerf what so harsh... really? 25% decrease to the SECOND swing of the fastest light combo in the game? I am open to letting you PK mains keep the initiating light exactly the same.
A 5% decrease to the farthest dodge in the game? come on... I even buffed her in other places to compensate. the difference is.... I buffed her in places where the risk reward is equal. the PK back dodge has no risk right now and is super rewarding.
besides, the exhausted Nerfs applies to everyone... we all should be getting punished if we go into the grey IMO.

1) I have not heard or seen any chain where the first attack is faster than the second unless its a light compared to a heavy...So ya im still not convinced in the slightest bit that her first light attack is the fastest move in the game save for ZA. Her second light attack is clearly much faster, and people block and parry the first light all the time. Seriously you think its so fast that its near impossible to block THE FIRST light attack? Every other person has been saying the opposite..the first light attack is more than blockable, its the second light attack and the recovery in between to start up the combo again that is giving people grief.

2) Im not sure how much decreasing dodge will affect her. All for it though as long as she still has the farthest or equal to the farthest dodge. Her character play style at least deserves that.

3) Key word: potentially. Actuality: Good luck ever landing a RAW heavy with PK. Only heavy you land against good players is the Jump+Stab after theyre knocked into the wall. And as you said that Dodge+Heavy is apparently the easiest move of hers to punish. Yet against casual player its the highest damaging move she has. So lets make her "best" move even better against the people that cant defend against it. Genius

4) Ya she needs those or shed be absolute garbage. Though deflect+stab is pointless since you can Parry+GB for more punish. And Hevay+Bleed while effective for most people, at top tier is practically irrelevant. So in top tier, she has one bleed move.

5) Yep her GB has the highest potential damage I believe. Potentially..She also has the only GB punish in the game that can be blocked! In case you didnt know, you can individually block each stab while in GB. So she has the potential for highest damage, she also has potentially the lowest damage from GB (pretty much zero) if youre lucky or good enough to block all three stabs.

6) She will have the fastest ZA. Also if Ubisoft chnages and your suggestion goes through, she will have the fastest and a near useless ZA. Unless you think One quick ZA is worth being parried and GB for. Again nerf the speed and damage, and change how people can spam it in reveneg somehow. Removing the ability to cancel effectively removes it from even average skill level use.

Need I go on? I didnt realize how oblivious you are to these changes you suggested. Only thing I cant comment on is the dodge distance and what you suggested for recovery. Something along those lines may balance her somewhat and exhaustion, I agree should be more punishable. Most people dont even care, theyll go exhausted and just stand there. Counter GB, Block, Counter GB/Block again and youre back.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-05-2017, 08:18 PM
The nobushi feels similar as well. The only thing that makes me lean to 12 rather than 15 for the first (second definitely needs to not be 12) is that we have to get closer than the valk and the nobushi and the light isn't on a dodge so we have to be in that range or know they are coming into that range before throwing. If they don't want to touch the speed of the attacks themselves, I have always said the recovery time otherwise is another option because the other heroes do have tools to put her back at their range but they never get a chance to use them.

Good thoughts, however I disagree with you as she has the mobility to compensate for her range, her dodge and speed will still keep her as a contender and not a joke

IendZombies
04-05-2017, 08:19 PM
The Valk has 15 frames lights, and she is just as you say, hard to parry, but balanced.

the valk is hard to parry yes, but the PK should be a little harder IMO. Making the PK lights 15fr and 15fr makes her obsolete if non-assassins with more health can do that as well.

CandleInTheDark
04-05-2017, 08:22 PM
4) Ya she needs those or shed be absolute garbage. Though deflect+stab is pointless since you can Parry+GB for more punish. And Hevay+Bleed while effective for most people, at top tier is practically irrelevant. So in top tier, she has one bleed move.


Deflect does have a purpose over parry in some occasions, the longer range characters are harder to guardbreak after parry (not sure if you can forward dash, I would need to have a bot battle to attempt that), deflect at the same timing gives me guaranteed bleed. Well I say guaranteed, I still have to hit the button, but unless I got deflect by fluke when dodging and occasionally even then i tend to get the bleed as well.

CandleInTheDark
04-05-2017, 08:25 PM
Good thoughts, however I disagree with you as she has the mobility to compensate for her range, her dodge and speed will still keep her as a contender and not a joke

Yeah that is a point and more than feasible. Like I say, I don't have a grasp on the numbers and the difference they make,I can only really give vague ideas of where the issue is, especially since I don't take advantage of it commonly in my own play.

Blasto95
04-05-2017, 08:27 PM
Deflect does have a purpose over parry in some occasions, the longer range characters are harder to guardbreak after parry (not sure if you can forward dash, I would need to have a bot battle to attempt that), deflect at the same timing gives me guaranteed bleed. Well I say guaranteed, I still have to hit the button, but unless I got deflect by fluke when dodging and occasionally even then i tend to get the bleed as well.

This is true, situational, but true. And no I dont think you can dash forward and GB after parry, at least ive never been able to or seen someone do it. My point still stands though..Id say 8/10 times youd much rather parry than deflect. And where one instance you GB+Bleed, the other youll have a much harder time landing a GB since you cant Parry+GB, almost removing her other bleed as well.

Alchemist..
04-05-2017, 08:29 PM
1) I have not heard or seen any chain where the first attack is faster than the second unless its a light compared to a heavy...So ya im still not convinced in the slightest bit that her first light attack is the fastest move in the game save for ZA. Her second light attack is clearly much faster, and people block and parry the first light all the time. Seriously you think its so fast that its near impossible to block THE FIRST light attack? Every other person has been saying the opposite..the first light attack is more than blockable, its the second light attack and the recovery in between to start up the combo again that is giving people grief.

2) Im not sure how much decreasing dodge will affect her. All for it though as long as she still has the farthest or equal to the farthest dodge. Her character play style at least deserves that.

3) Key word: potentially. Actuality: Good luck ever landing a RAW heavy with PK. Only heavy you land against good players is the Jump+Stab after theyre knocked into the wall. And as you said that Dodge+Heavy is apparently the easiest move of hers to punish. Yet against casual player its the highest damaging move she has. So lets make her "best" move even better against the people that cant defend against it. Genius

4) Ya she needs those or shed be absolute garbage. Though deflect+stab is pointless since you can Parry+GB for more punish. And Hevay+Bleed while effective for most people, at top tier is practically irrelevant. So in top tier, she has one bleed move.

5) Yep her GB has the highest potential damage I believe. Potentially..She also has the only GB punish in the game that can be blocked! In case you didnt know, you can individually block each stab while in GB. So she has the potential for highest damage, she also has potentially the lowest damage from GB (pretty much zero) if youre lucky or good enough to block all three stabs.

6) She will have the fastest ZA. Also if Ubisoft chnages and your suggestion goes through, she will have the fastest and a near useless ZA. Unless you think One quick ZA is worth being parried and GB for. Again nerf the speed and damage, and change how people can spam it in reveneg somehow. Removing the ability to cancel effectively removes it from even average skill level use.

Need I go on? I didnt realize how oblivious you are to these changes you suggested. Only thing I cant comment on is the dodge distance and what you suggested for recovery. Something along those lines may balance her somewhat and exhaustion, I agree should be more punishable. Most people dont even care, theyll go exhausted and just stand there. Counter GB, Block, Counter GB/Block again and youre back.

But there is no risk in gb stabs, any other character cant take almost half of your hp just because gb you. I play kensei and to make half hp dmg i need work like stupid, pk need only gb you, no risk high reward, she can also make 2 stabs kick you into wall and add heavy to this, its insane dmg without any risk.

IendZombies
04-05-2017, 08:31 PM
1) I have not heard or seen any chain where the first attack is faster than the second unless its a light compared to a heavy...So ya im still not convinced in the slightest bit that her first light attack is the fastest move in the game save for ZA. Her second light attack is clearly much faster, and people block and parry the first light all the time. Seriously you think its so fast that its near impossible to block THE FIRST light attack? Every other person has been saying the opposite..the first light attack is more than blockable, its the second light attack and the recovery in between to start up the combo again that is giving people grief.

2) Im not sure how much decreasing dodge will affect her. All for it though as long as she still has the farthest or equal to the farthest dodge. Her character play style at least deserves that.

3) Key word: potentially. Actuality: Good luck ever landing a RAW heavy with PK. Only heavy you land against good players is the Jump+Stab after theyre knocked into the wall. And as you said that Dodge+Heavy is apparently the easiest move of hers to punish. Yet against casual player its the highest damaging move she has. So lets make her "best" move even better against the people that cant defend against it. Genius

4) Ya she needs those or shed be absolute garbage. Though deflect+stab is pointless since you can Parry+GB for more punish. And Hevay+Bleed while effective for most people, at top tier is practically irrelevant. So in top tier, she has one bleed move.

5) Yep her GB has the highest potential damage I believe. Potentially..She also has the only GB punish in the game that can be blocked! In case you didnt know, you can individually block each stab while in GB. So she has the potential for highest damage, she also has potentially the lowest damage from GB (pretty much zero) if youre lucky or good enough to block all three stabs.

6) She will have the fastest ZA. Also if Ubisoft chnages and your suggestion goes through, she will have the fastest and a near useless ZA. Unless you think One quick ZA is worth being parried and GB for. Again nerf the speed and damage, and change how people can spam it in reveneg somehow. Removing the ability to cancel effectively removes it from even average skill level use.

Need I go on? I didnt realize how oblivious you are to these changes you suggested. Only thing I cant comment on is the dodge distance and what you suggested for recovery. Something along those lines may balance her somewhat and exhaustion, I agree should be more punishable. Most people dont even care, theyll go exhausted and just stand there. Counter GB, Block, Counter GB/Block again and youre back.

you may be right about the first attack being slower than the second, but if that is the case, it should be the opposite! The PK is an initiator, first strike should be faster. To compensate, slow the second light so players have a chance to parry and punish.

fair point on the second half her zone. new solution: make the first half of her zone punishable by guard break if blocked!

the skill level of players that stay in the community will always go up, the game is still relatively new.. even casuals will get use to dash striking. it took me a few weeks, that is it. within two months after that I moved my win-rate all the way up to 70% from 50%.

then how do you recommend the PK light/zone then insta-dodge-back-no punish game play be handled ?

Di_Lust
04-06-2017, 12:32 AM
you may be right about the first attack being slower than the second, but if that is the case, it should be the opposite! The PK is an initiator, first strike should be faster. To compensate, slow the second light so players have a chance to parry and punish.

fair point on the second half her zone. new solution: make the first half of her zone punishable by guard break if blocked!

the skill level of players that stay in the community will always go up, the game is still relatively new.. even casuals will get use to dash striking. it took me a few weeks, that is it. within two months after that I moved my win-rate all the way up to 70% from 50%.

then how do you recommend the PK light/zone then insta-dodge-back-no punish game play be handled ?

very easy - DELETE second part of her ZA completely and make it looks more like warden ZA but a little bit faster and now its punishable if blocked....
About spamming during revenge... i think making chars superarmored only during heavies like warlords will be enough... light spam without punish will be impossibru
p.s. spam problem solved. I am playing as a pk(70%) and to be honest at high level of play its not that safe to throw lights without feint... whatever u say but ppl parry those staight light easier then i would like to :D i dont think that those frame nerfs are needed at all...and dont compare nobushi to pk pls... srsly they have one big difference - distance, if u wanna nerf her lights to the valky and nobu level no prob i can live with that but make em longer then, so we can throw those into nobu face after parry...
P.s.s. and dont touch out bleed dmg pls... if u want to nerf those too just add that bleed immune warden skill to all chars and ppl who fear bleeds so much will stop crying, but pls let that skill to be placed in exchnge of something usefull like... stuped long bow :D, in duels i believe all classes has kinda high dmg in GBed chars, live with that.

Porch-Skunk
04-06-2017, 12:57 AM
Honestly, look at the PK. Small, frail, but super agile. I think she should keep her speed and current damage. BUT, she can dodge into attacks to deflect and punish, and she can dodge quickly which is what is good for her defense. THIS should be her nerf. Let her have all these things, but take away her ability to block and regular parry. Force her to dodge and deflect instead. Then she will have to play more defensively without spaming auto attack.

UbiNoty
04-06-2017, 01:12 AM
Thanks for the feedback! Even though we chose to tone down peacekeeper's power in ways that didn't affect her light attack spam, we are aware that this is a big topic of debate and will be closely monitoring it and her after the balance patch changes go live.
As we had already decided to nerf some of her other sources of damage, we are being more cautious about making changes to the light attack as well - since we don't want to break her. If we see that it continues to be a problem, we'll make changes accordingly for a future balance update.

Mudflaaaps
04-06-2017, 01:28 AM
I agree that the peacekeeper needs a nerf and that the dash nerf is pointless. If anything it'll exacerbate her, people will use that less and use the light spam more.

I play peacekeeper, mainly to counter losers who play like children and the only way to win is to join them.
To be honest, she doesn't need a nerf. EVERYONE needs a nerf. There are far too many characters that can do attacks so fast you can't possibly block, she's not even the worst (valkyrie). The only reason people pick on PK is because she's the most agile, making her top tier.

At least her speed makes sense. I'd rather see the warden have his lights nerfed, considering he has a longsword for Christ's sake.
Or valkyrie, being able to attack from left then right in less than a second. Hardly realistic movements for a human.

Lets not forget the conquerors instant attacks, including his charged heavy.

Even the shugoki has a top light that's so fast it's rarely blockable.

Basically, every character is too good. Nerf EVERYONE, slower and harder attacks but more window for counter, problem solved.

Alchemist..
04-06-2017, 01:57 AM
I am playing as a pk(70%) and to be honest at high level of play its not that safe to throw lights without feint... whatever u say but ppl parry those staight light easier then i would like to :D i dont think that those frame nerfs are needed at all...
U cam feint lights? Ok, that explains everything


in duels i believe all classes has kinda high dmg in GBed chars, live with that.

not that big as PK, only pk can win by 2x guard beaking you + heavy

Mia.Nora
04-06-2017, 03:13 AM
1. she still will have the fast light combo in the game.

first strike 12 frames, second strike 15 frames. 15 frames is the same as Orochi and Warden top light... let that sink in. 12 frames on her first light is under 400ms. The average reaction time of a male between 14-23 is 450-470ms. the average gamer will still literally have to guess to parry it. Having both at 12 frames is too strong. (wrong frame numbers, her LA is not 12 frame) You base your claims on false info.

2. She will still have the farthest doge in the game. however, no longer by such a wide margin.

3. She could potential have the highest damage heavy strikes in the game. Depending on how much they buff the heavy dash-strikes hypothetically. (it is a free parry gift to enemy, only works vs noobs, a null skill)

4. she maintains all her super powerful bleed effects. (you mean light after heavy? it is nothing really, if you refer to GB+3 stab you are repeating same thing to make it sound better)

5. her GB+bleed will be unaffected and remain one of the most powerful guard break combos. Wrong again, her GB+3 stabs drains all her stamina for a measly 35 damage. GB+Heavy from other champions does more without draining their whole stamina...

6. she will still have the fastest zone attack in the the game, one that begins with 9 freaking frames. (which deals a small amount of damage in return for handing a free GB? Sounds like a great deal!!)


People forget that PK kit is simply empty. She has absolutely nothing apart from fast attacks. You can not open up an enemy waiting for you with any way. No unblockables, no disablers.

These nerfs would bring PK to a state where she is only a worse version of every other character, since all she does is parry+GB which is available to everyone else on top of their class specifics.

PK needs a rework, not a nerf. Simple as that. She needs some unblockables/disablers and in return her speed toned down.

kweassa1917
04-06-2017, 04:52 AM
People forget that PK kit is simply empty. She has absolutely nothing apart from fast attacks. You can not open up an enemy waiting for you with any way. No unblockables, no disablers.

What else do you need when a spammable light-attack is fast enough to interrupt every counter-attack attempt whether its blocked or not, interrupts GB activation, most usually lands and cuts off your dodge before it goes into immunity frames, forces a guessing game where you have 66% chance of losing that keeps you locked down in disadvantaged recovery frames, and basically unpunishable unless you get off a parry? Some classes like the Nobushi which have clunky guard-switching motions are hard pressed to just block the spamming, much less parry it.

Besides, unless the light attack is parried -- which puts you into same bad situation for ALL classes -- any difficult situation of loss of initiative is countered simply by a dodge-back to gain distance, since fastest movement and dodge. In a battlefield you don't even show up on radar, which guarantees you always get the first strike in so long as you're clever.

How about range? Isn't short swords and daggers supposed to have problem of range? From a Nobushi perspective keeping range from a Raider with a 6 feet pole-axe is easier than keeping range from a PK with a dagger that's only the length of your arm. Range? What range?


So tell me again what you are "empty," because a lot of the players who don't have ANY of what is mentioned above will probably have some choice words to say, if we're really gonna talk about who is "well off from the start."




These nerfs would bring PK to a state where she is only a worse version of every other character, since all she does is parry+GB which is available to everyone else on top of their class specifics.

PK needs a rework, not a nerf. Simple as that. She needs some unblockables/disablers and in return her speed toned down.

Wordgames. Twist it any way around and still the basics remain the same. The rework is a function of the nerf. I don't necessarily agree with the nerf suggestions, but that's because most nerf suggestions are systematically unsound -- not because the PK don't need no nerf.

Mia.Nora
04-06-2017, 05:02 AM
MORE WRONG INFORMATION
Wordgames. Twist it any way around and still the basics remain the same. The rework is a function of the nerf. I don't necessarily agree with the nerf suggestions, but that's because most nerf suggestions are systematically unsound -- not because the PK don't need no nerf.

Clunky guard stance change myth has been debunked a while ago. This is the problem with the community, they base everything on their experience and feel of things instead of actual truth.

Just like you claimed her GB+3stab being OP, a total ******** when put into numbers, now you fall back to guard stance claims, which again has been proven to be wrong.

Also what about this claim on PK's range? She DOES have short range, she has to physically be closer to her enemy for landing s strike, compared to long range characters. If you are talking about her speed, that is called speed, not range.

No offense but you clearly make things up to back up how you feel about her. You demand her speed to be nerfed, then when I point out her speed is the only thing in her kit; you go back to saying she is fast. Isnt that what you want to be nerfed in the first place??

Also a nerf and rework are completely different things. Nerf PK speed and she becomes useless.
Rework her kit, and give her new tools. and lower her speed so that the way she is played is reworked.

At this point people who want PK nerf, dont want a level playing field, they want PK to become not viable at all. That is the problem.

Raven-Mad
04-06-2017, 05:16 AM
At this point people who want PK nerf, dont want a level playing field, they want PK to become not viable at all. That is the problem.

I think there's a tiny flaw in this statement, in that it's a complete fabrication.

Only a few saltlords want PK deleted or completely dead. Fighting her is a little less fun than fighting a Conqueror, which is to say most of us would rather choke and die. That's not to say we don't want her to be fixed and in a decent place, surprisingly not all of us who call for severe PK nerfs are malicious thugs who just hate all pks/pk players so much that we just want you to suffer. I know, shocking.

kweassa1917
04-06-2017, 05:52 AM
Clunky guard stance change myth has been debunked a while ago. This is the problem with the community, they base everything on their experience and feel of things instead of actual truth.

Just like you claimed her GB+3stab being OP, a total ******** when put into numbers, now you fall back to guard stance claims, which again has been proven to be wrong.

I said clunky change, not difference in frames. Go to the Samurai forums and ask around about the delays in action/input such as Hidden Stance not activating due to having longer guard animations. Here's the deal: the guard-state detection itself is on the same frames, but actions that require a button input (aside from dodge) such as attacks, parries, special stances and etc. activate only after a guard-switch animated motion is fully finished. You can guard according to incoming PK light spam direction, but you can't activate any of the parries fast enough because the switch motion lags behind unless a PK delays her light attack for some reason, or comes into the direction you already have your guard at.

Don't assume you're the only one keeping track of how things go down around the parts.



Also what about this claim on PK's range? She DOES have short range, she has to physically be closer to her enemy for landing s strike, compared to long range characters. If you are talking about her speed, that is called speed, not range.

:rolleyes: Really? You're going there? What's the end result of being the fastest, most nimble in motion with largest gap-closing/gap-widening efficiency of motion? = Range closed/opened easier than a 7 feet tall guy with a 6 feet poleaxe.

Ever watch how boxing goes? Do you know what happens when a featherweight standing at 5' 4" goes up against a heavy weight that stands at 6' 3" with over 5" of difference in reach? Do you think the featherweight "speed" is going to allow that 5 inches of difference in reach easily?

Yeah, this is a game, so reality is not so important as fun. Hence, giving faster motion = control of range to the PK would make sense balance wise if it was to a reasonable extent. But currently, like said, it's easier kiting enemies standing 7 feet tall with 6 feet weapons, than trying to kite a scrawny little mongrel with a weapon the length of your forearm.




No offense but you clearly make things up to back up how you feel about her. You demand her speed to be nerfed, then when I point out her speed is the only thing in her kit; you go back to saying she is fast. Isnt that what you want to be nerfed in the first place??

How about actually trying to remember who said which things to you, before commenting on 'making things up'? Because, like, comments like these that mix-up people or put words in one's mouth, makes you look really unattentive.



Also a nerf and rework are completely different things. Nerf PK speed and she becomes useless.
Rework her kit, and give her new tools. and lower her speed so that the way she is played is reworked.

At this point people who want PK nerf, dont want a level playing field, they want PK to become not viable at all. That is the problem.

...says the guy who skates downhill, to all the rest of the class players who are trying to skate uphill.

Truthfully? If you're a PK player, the oddes are you wouldn't know what 'level ground' means in the first place. That's the problem, really. Like said in my prior example, give my class a six-shooter, and let's see how well you can "level the field" with skills alone.

Then I'll add in a nice, smarmy comment in the end that goes, "You guys really need to L2P".

Mia.Nora
04-06-2017, 06:46 AM
Then I'll add in a nice, smarmy comment in the end that goes, "You guys really need to L2P".

Here is the thing. I never said Peacekeeper in its current status is not overpowered. Haven't claimed that once.

But unlike you people who want to nerf to ground so that she becomes utterly useless, I realize it was a flaw in her design, since she is built on one thing only: being faster. And you complain about her being fast. In your petty hatred against PK, you put her speed into all her aspect, even going as far as claiming she has long range. When I point it out, you say 'well being fast mean closing range fast,
so that equals range". No Einstein, being fast is being fast. Having long range is having long range. PK is fast with short range, compare the minimum distance enemy Kensei/Nobushi hits you with their LA/HA and compare that to PK. But arguing is pointless since you know all these anyway.

I play PK more than I play other champs. That's why I know her shortcomings. You clearly dont. That's why you fail to hold your ground against her. Even if she is strong, when I am on my valkyrie I wipe the floor with PK. I bet next you will say Valkyrie is broken.

Is her speed a problem? Sure is, which conflicts with other gameplay mechanics. But her speed is all she has. They need to give her new toys and slow her down to zerker. This is the only way she can have level play field, because otherwise it is no different than taking away shield bash form conqueror to nerf it, since there would be nothing left in this kit.

Problem with champions like PK/Conqueror is that they are designed with very little tools, and the ones they have is ranging from overpowered to annoying in current mechanics.

Think of a PK, imagine your opponent is there waiting for you to attack to parry. He is good enough to CGB. And he is closing in on you for getting your back to wall. What can you do? No unblockables, no uninterruptables, no disablers. All you can do is try land a ZA/LA. Literally no other tools in her kit for doing anything else. That is the real problem.

Aarpian
04-06-2017, 01:58 PM
Thanks for the feedback! Even though we chose to tone down peacekeeper's power in ways that didn't affect her light attack spam, we are aware that this is a big topic of debate and will be closely monitoring it and her after the balance patch changes go live.
As we had already decided to nerf some of her other sources of damage, we are being more cautious about making changes to the light attack as well - since we don't want to break her. If we see that it continues to be a problem, we'll make changes accordingly for a future balance update.

If the devs have actually fixed the indicator glitch on her zone attack as well as nerfed her guard break damage, that's basically all that needs to be done for now. Without the zone attack indicator glitch she will be relying on attacks that can actually be parried, which would lead her to utilise the soft feint > guard break to punish any parry attempts (something which works out in her favour, as she risks very little by trying it and would get 42+ damage when successful, compared to a 30-40 damage punish on the enemy's successful parry). If the guard break damage has been lowered, the risk/reward ratio is much healthier as it's not longer both required and suicidal to try to parry the PK lights.

I would have liked to have seen her dash recovery frames looked at, because right now she's just immune to a whole host of tactics due to being unpunishable on dodges which is incredibly frustrating.

For the sake of design consistency I'd like to see her light attack damage lowered and the heavier, slower classes raised, but if you do it now she'll be fairly bad.

Di_Lust
04-06-2017, 02:26 PM
U can feint lights? Ok, that explains everything



not that big as PK, only pk can win by 2x guard beaking you + heavy

not the light itself, u feint your heavy but then follow with light, but if i am not wrong u still can feint light into ZA its called softfeint, not sure if devs fix it or not i dont use it too much....

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
04-06-2017, 04:29 PM
the valk is hard to parry yes, but the PK should be a little harder IMO. Making the PK lights 15fr and 15fr makes her obsolete if non-assassins with more health can do that as well.

The valk has the same health I believe, they'll just be different flavors of character and abilities.

BigFatLion
04-06-2017, 04:47 PM
This is a great discussion, really... from the thread I see two separate issues here. One is for us, community, the other actually is Ubisoft's.

Issue #1: Perception versus Data

Just by browsing this thread, there are several statements about attack speeds (e.g., this is faster than that, etc), damage (e.g., move A does more damage than move B) and even character health pool. And people base their thoughts and suggestions on these things, BUT OBJECTIVELY: are they really correct? That is the first thing we should ask ourselves. In reality it takes some internet searching to find actual values or tests for some of these parameters, and some seem reliable and others not so much (in spite of people having good intentions and doing their best attempts to get these numbers).

So here's one YouTube video on fastest attack times for all characters:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm5L19vZiEg&index=22&list=PLF7kE4cl8a78pOzYWHhMwM-y5GYWVogdz
These seem to be decent estimates, and are inline with other posts and videos. A few things to point out related to various posts in this thread:
- PK light chain attack speed are 15f and 12f, respectively: so it is the second attack that is fastest. Many other characters have 15-frame light attacks: Valkyrie lights, Beserker lights, Nobushi side lights, Orochi top light, Warden top light, Warlord (yes, Warlord) side lights.
- PK's zone attack is the fastest in the game at 9f (first hit): no question there
- Someone mentioned Conqueror's lights being 'too fast' (I'm paraphrasing here) : they are 18f attacks, same speed as the Shugoki light attacks. How many threads are there crying for a nerf to Shugoki light attack speeds?
The main reason I am pointing this out is to shed light that our perception of state of the game is tied to our personal player habits and biases, along with being influenced by the community, and it not always a 'simple fact'. It would be immensely helpful if Ubisoft, or someone else, took on the time and effort to provide us with an actual data base for these things . Until we have something like that, we will need to resort to some of our clever and dedicated peers to run the tests such as the ones in the YouTube video above.

Now, Ubisoft has access to data, lots of it. And a few professionals there rely on those data, their experience and our input to make calls on changing character balance. Let's give them a shot, but let's also question it within reason (more on that below).

My perception: I play PK myself (though it is not my main) and I feel like she does have a good toolkit overall (though yes no unblockables, hyper armour or disablers), but relying on her light attack combo and on her zone attack w/ cancel is just too easy and rewarding. This is because, aside from the sheer speed of the attacks themselves, her movement speed/range (the dodges) and the next to no recovery time on these attacks makes them all about reward and very little risk. None of her other options, including the thrusts/stabs from dodge/dash, heavy-cancel-to-light, deflect and dare I say it, even the guard break to stabs (because many good players tech out of it) is as rewarding. And that is largely what can be seen even at tournaments (though arguably those players are not the norm). In my very non-game-designer opinion, setting the speed of both the second light attack in the chain and the zone first hit to 15f (maybe even 12f, like Warden and Orochi), together with increasing the recovery time on block/whiff would do the trick.


Issue #2, for UBISOFT (if you're there): Data versus Player experience

This one is for the Ubi devs. Yes, you (and you alone) have access to data which you can probably crunch in any ways to try to extract information to help with character balancing. That really is great, and we hope you continue on doing that. BUT (and you know that was coming), and this is critical for all large and complex datasets, are you asking the 'right' questions? So your recent nerf decision for the PK really got me wondering about this and here, please do correct me if I'm wrong:
- the data tell you that the heavy thrust from the side dodge does 'too much' damage, so you will be revising that. From this I infer that you looked at the statistics of e.g., which attack types contributed to the most damage within PK kills' or something of the sort.
- you (Ubisoft) have decided to make the PK zone attack no longer cancellable and set its (total?) damage in line with a light attack.
So regarding the first point here: is that the right metric to address the real player experience issues regarding the 'the OPness of PK'? Let me give you a fairly common (in my own biased experience) example of playing against a PK: PK tries some dash stabs, a couple connect at first, but then I'm hip to it and block them and even parry one or two, then PK doesn't want to risk dying and resorts only to dashing in/out with zone attacks and light combos (because it's safe). Here, it may well be that I lost a good chunk of health to the thrust stabs (maybe 2/3 or so?), but once I responded and began to turn the fight to my favour, I really lost the 1v1 (the remaining 1/3 of health) to lights and/or zone attacks... So the metric of which attack is doing the most damage definitely does not translate to the frustration of losing to the PK in those examples. For me, at least, they happen often. The same goes for your proposed zone attack nerf, and though we can't tell and until a while after the patch is out, your chance to the zone attack will probably make it pretty much not viable in PvP: if I were a PK main, I would feel a little deflated to lose a useful tool altogether, and rely more on the light attack combo. I would rather have a slower zone attack with longer recovery, but still cancellable, that I could use in the right moment....

CandleInTheDark
04-06-2017, 05:07 PM
- you (Ubisoft) have decided to make the PK zone attack no longer cancellable and set its (total?) damage in line with a light attack.
So regarding the first point here: is that the right metric to address the real player experience issues regarding the 'the OPness of PK'? Let me give you a fairly common (in my own biased experience) example of playing against a PK: PK tries some dash stabs, a couple connect at first, but then I'm hip to it and block them and even parry one or two, then PK doesn't want to risk dying and resorts only to dashing in/out with zone attacks and light combos (because it's safe). Here, it may well be that I lost a good chunk of health to the thrust stabs (maybe 2/3 or so?), but once I responded and began to turn the fight to my favour, I really lost the 1v1 (the remaining 1/3 of health) to lights and/or zone attacks... So the metric of which attack is doing the most damage definitely does not translate to the frustration of losing to the PK in those examples. For me, at least, they happen often. The same goes for your proposed zone attack nerf, and though we can't tell and until a while after the patch is out, your chance to the zone attack will probably make it pretty much not viable in PvP: if I were a PK main, I would feel a little deflated to lose a useful tool altogether, and rely more on the light attack combo. I would rather have a slower zone attack with longer recovery, but still cancellable, that I could use in the right moment....

Good post all in all, I read their change to zone attack a little differently though.This is their comments on it in the patch notes.

Zone Attack first strike is now set up as a light attack to trigger an interrupt reaction on block.
Cancelling a blocked Zone attack while in Revenge will now force an exit of 600ms preventing you from attacking again.
[Bug Fix] Zone Attack UI indicator will now correctly start at the beginning of the animation instead of 100ms later.



Developer comments: In its current state, Peacekeeper’s Zone Attack has very low risk and very high reward even on block. Revenge also makes the Peacekeeper nearly unstoppable with the ability to repeat the Zone Attack cancel without Stamina penalty. With these changes the move is still a very good opener but will no longer give you a frame advantage on block. Fixing the UI stance indicator’s timing will also make the Zone Attack feel more consistent with its actual timing of 400ms. It will remain one of the fastest moves in the game but the fact that it is always coming from the same stance makes it manageable.



I might be reading this completely wrong but to me, that says that the zone attack is treated as a light if the first part of it is blocked (ie it becomes punishable so you need to use it as the warden would use theirs, to make the opponent aware it is there and in your toolkit if their defence is where they are otherwise attacking) and I say the first part because it only seems tome that they have changed it in revenge mode where there is unlimited stamina meaning that now instead of zone-cancel-zone-cancel it is zone-cancel-pause-zone-cancel-pause. I am hoping that they have also fixed the flicker on it.

Yarzahn
04-06-2017, 05:11 PM
Thanks for the feedback! Even though we chose to tone down peacekeeper's power in ways that didn't affect her light attack spam, we are aware that this is a big topic of debate and will be closely monitoring it and her after the balance patch changes go live.
As we had already decided to nerf some of her other sources of damage, we are being more cautious about making changes to the light attack as well - since we don't want to break her. If we see that it continues to be a problem, we'll make changes accordingly for a future balance update.

There is one thing I don't understand. The conqueror has an ability called "Conscript's Attrition" that allows him to use light attacks over and over until he runs out of stamina, as long as he keeps changing the direction. Does the peace keeper have a hidden similar ability? I mean her longest combo is light-light-heavy. Shouldn't she get a pause after doing 2 light attacks in a row if she queues a 3rd one instead of a heavy? Because on most other heroes get their attacks staggered when they dont follow their combos. Only peace keeper and conqueror can fluidly chain light attacks indefinitely.
If this is intended, you should make her infinite light combo visible in the moveset. Because right now, this is superior to all her other combos.

The Orochi has a light-light-light combo, and you can guardbreak him after the third attack. What makes peacekeeper special that she doesnt have to respect her own moveset / combos?