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XyZspineZyX
07-27-2003, 10:50 PM
Hi,

Never really thought about this before until now. Just went to check out what kind of damage the MK103 does in FB 1.08 now, and got into a number of jousting matches against P47-D27s head on.

I started to wonder - what was the likelyhood of a head on shot actually blowing the propellor directly off an enemy aircraft? Guns need to be fairly carefully synchronised to fire through a propellor at point blank range / their maximum speed. Rounds that are spinning and travelling at less than their max speed would have a reasonable change of impacting on the prop blades themselves.. wouldn't they? A MK103 projectile isn't exactly what I'd call small, but they seem to pass through the large, high speed P47 prop without doing a thing.

Anyone have any stories of this kind of thing happening in WW2?

As a PS - counted up to 5 hits from an MK103 to bring down a P47. Makes it kind of a useless weapon right now .. hope it gets fixed :>

XyZspineZyX
07-27-2003, 10:50 PM
Hi,

Never really thought about this before until now. Just went to check out what kind of damage the MK103 does in FB 1.08 now, and got into a number of jousting matches against P47-D27s head on.

I started to wonder - what was the likelyhood of a head on shot actually blowing the propellor directly off an enemy aircraft? Guns need to be fairly carefully synchronised to fire through a propellor at point blank range / their maximum speed. Rounds that are spinning and travelling at less than their max speed would have a reasonable change of impacting on the prop blades themselves.. wouldn't they? A MK103 projectile isn't exactly what I'd call small, but they seem to pass through the large, high speed P47 prop without doing a thing.

Anyone have any stories of this kind of thing happening in WW2?

As a PS - counted up to 5 hits from an MK103 to bring down a P47. Makes it kind of a useless weapon right now .. hope it gets fixed :>

XyZspineZyX
07-27-2003, 10:58 PM
Suprised you didnt know this, but its alright. Theres a little ball bearing thing in the gun that when its fired, the mechanism that fires the round cannot fire it when the propeller is in front of the gun. They've had this mechanism since ww1

XyZspineZyX
07-27-2003, 11:18 PM
Its not possible to damage the propellor of a target plane with bullets. You can only damage the engine.

The MK103 is very effective against all fighters and bombers. The P-47 has an anomolous damage model.

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XyZspineZyX
07-27-2003, 11:26 PM
In WW1 they had this thing like if the the sync failed then the prop was reinforced to deflect the bullets

XyZspineZyX
07-27-2003, 11:29 PM
Yup it is to bad too, because it was something if it got hit you were screwed. Lots of gun cam footage you can see a prop get hit and see it windmill. Especially on bombers. It was probably to much work to implement though, I can't think of a flight sim that it is modelled in. Would be impressive though, can't think of how many shot I have lined up on a quatering where the prop would be shot off.

ShadowHawk__
07-27-2003, 11:38 PM
I think a lot of you guys missed the point of what he was saying. He meant that if you shoot at someone else's prop what is the probability of actually hitting it, not "how is it possible for bullets to be fired through your own prop".

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XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 12:07 AM
Clint-ruin, the P-47 Thunderbolt special edition published by Flight Journal had a couple of good stories related to your question (you may be able to find a copy at a local news stand.) Talking about flak, one pilot noticed multiple hits to his prop blades during a ground attack run. None to the propellor hub however, which would have been more damaging. Blades are made of either metal skins with a metal spar in the middle, or of wood (as on the Ju-88 or some of the 190's), and rounds often pass through the blades with little harm done. Hitting the more solid hub would provide more resistance, resulting in more damage. Enough hits to the blades could weaken or unbalance them, which would also be bad.
The other story I remember is about a Jug pilot "leaving Dodge" at high speed and very low altitude (less than 10 feet.) He wrote about seeing a lone German soldier on the road he was following, and not being able to turn or pull up to avoid him (due to the AAA threat and his low altitude preventing any banking.) He braced for impact, but flew right over the guy without hitting him with the prop. After he got home, the pilot did some math and figured that at 250 mph and 2250 rpm, each blade's path was 2.44 feet in front of the previous blade as they went around in a corkscrew pattern. The guy apparently stood bolt upright, and in exactly the right spot. I'm not sure the pilot didn't underestimate his altitude a bit, or miss the German hitting the dirt at the last second, but the math sounds right.
All this is in real life. As far as I know you can't directly damage the prop in FB, though as others have said you can certainly affect its motion by hitting parts of the engine. I may have had the prop govenor shot out while flying a La-5, but it may have been a hit somewhere else in the engine that caused the RPM to drop with the engine still running.

Blotto

"Only the spirit of attack, born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter craft, no matter how technically advanced." - A. Galland

"Look, do you want the jets, or would you rather I slap the props back on?" - W. Messerschmitt

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 12:23 AM
In FB the prop governor of the Hurricane is succeptible to damage. When it gets hit, the prop goes flat (fully fine+) and the engine races away over-revving like mad, but you have no power. You then have to back right off the throttle to keep the engine revs in the normal range or you overheat and seize up. The engine sound when this happens is quite cool http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 12:48 AM
http://www3.sympatico.ca/sbmel/Spit_vs_Mk108.jpg



thats what a Mk108 does to a spitfire, fired from the side during test conditions

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 02:39 AM
Blottogg wrote:
- Clint-ruin, the P-47 Thunderbolt special edition
- published by Flight Journal had a couple of good
- stories related to your question (you may be able to
- find a copy at a local news stand.) Talking about
- flak, one pilot noticed multiple hits to his prop
- blades during a ground attack run. None to the
- propellor hub however, which would have been more
- damaging. Blades are made of either metal skins
- with a metal spar in the middle, or of wood (as on
- the Ju-88 or some of the 190's), and rounds often
- pass through the blades with little harm done.
- Hitting the more solid hub would provide more
- resistance, resulting in more damage. Enough hits
- to the blades could weaken or unbalance them, which
- would also be bad.
- The other story I remember is about a Jug pilot
- "leaving Dodge" at high speed and very low altitude
- (less than 10 feet.) He wrote about seeing a lone
- German soldier on the road he was following, and not
- being able to turn or pull up to avoid him (due to
- the AAA threat and his low altitude preventing any
- banking.) He braced for impact, but flew right over
- the guy without hitting him with the prop. After he
- got home, the pilot did some math and figured that
- at 250 mph and 2250 rpm, each blade's path was 2.44
- feet in front of the previous blade as they went
- around in a corkscrew pattern. The guy apparently
- stood bolt upright, and in exactly the right spot.
- I'm not sure the pilot didn't underestimate his
- altitude a bit, or miss the German hitting the dirt
- at the last second, but the math sounds right.
- All this is in real life. As far as I know you
- can't directly damage the prop in FB, though as
- others have said you can certainly affect its motion
- by hitting parts of the engine. I may have had the
- prop govenor shot out while flying a La-5, but it
- may have been a hit somewhere else in the engine
- that caused the RPM to drop with the engine still
- running.
-

I have that issue.......that was a great story...can you imagine!!! LOL I would have hated to be in the same hole as that guy when that episode came to it's conclusion..... I also found the one about the recoil of the P-47s 8 50s actually being powerfull enough to slow the plane down.... I have shot the prop off of a 109 offline once... I taged him good with a few 37mm rounds from a P-37 and as he burst into flames the spinning prop came off and spin away.... It would be nice to see the kind of damage modeled in these planes that some of those Jug pilots were referring to but i think it would be too much to program. This sim is stillt eh most awesome sim out any way though.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 02:42 AM
So THAT'S what's supposed to be going on when the Hurricane engine makes that racket! Thanks for the info, Gibbs, I've been wondering.

Happens all the time when attacking bombers, too, even with the less accurate fire in Beta 8. Been driving me crazy; I've been getting very skilled at executing emergency landings on Finnish highways.

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 05:27 AM
Speaking of props, what's the deal with the Russian I-16? Every time I go to dive suddenly or fly upwards to the point of stalling, the RPMs dip and return but the engine just won't regain full power. The prop spins uselessly and I have to crank out the gear and land.

I began to miss the 109 when I began the Russian fighter campaign...

XyZspineZyX
07-28-2003, 05:47 AM
I think Jane's WWII Fighters has this feature implemented. I remember that after I was shot up (many, many times I assure you /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) my prop was sometimes bent. Can anyone else confirm this? I mean, if they could do this in 1998(?), they can surely do it in 2003.

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Tully__
07-28-2003, 12:12 PM
RobertVGITPW wrote:
- Speaking of props, what's the deal with the Russian
- I-16? Every time I go to dive suddenly or fly
- upwards to the point of stalling, the RPMs dip and
- return but the engine just won't regain full power.
- The prop spins uselessly and I have to crank out the
- gear and land.
-


The I-16, I-153 and Hurricane I had a less sophisticated type of carberateur which didn't handle negative G very well. Don't push forward suddenly on the stick or fly level inverted, that will cause the engine to quit in any of these planes.

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fluke39
07-28-2003, 12:25 PM
i was wondering about damage to the prop just the other day - i guess they are probably one of the least likely things to get hit - nevertheless i was wondering whether the could be

Bearcat99 wrote:

I have shot the
- prop off of a 109 offline once... I taged him good
- with a few 37mm rounds from a P-37 and as he burst
- into flames the spinning prop came off and spin
- away....

yeah i'v done this - mainly with two engined planes however - like the 110 or He111 it's great to see the prop flying off stil spinning !!


It would be nice to see the kind of damage
- modeled in these planes that some of those Jug
- pilots were referring to but i think it would be too
- much to program. This sim is stillt eh most awesome
- sim out any way though...<

true on both counts/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 10:58 AM
Thanks for the thoughtful replies.

I believe that the damage effects from high powered shots or sudden explosions are just part of a general 'explosion' effect and aren't anything to do with blowing the prop off by itself. Same with taking out an engine from the HS129, PE8, PE2, JU88, etc. Although that's very fun all by itself. The falling prop blade spinning away on fire only seems to happen when they entire aircraft is destroyed.

I don't think that .30s or .50s would do all that much to a prop blade if they collided with it, but something like an MK103 shell - even larger and more destructive than the MK108 damage photos posted - that should annihilate just about anything it comes into contact with, especially if a prop blade whacks into it. And yes, to the poster above, it does seem like the P47 is unique in being able to take a lot of rounds from the FW190 2xMK103 loadout - it utterly destroys anything else I've fired it at.

Anyhow, looks like seperate prop blade damage is just something that isn't modelled. Can't say I blame Oleg for not wanting to try to simulate damage to say, 32+ planes individual props going at 4000RPM with thousands of rounds being shot at them. I suppose it could be done by some sort of random probability of hit, but from the way the rest of the game plays, that kind of thing just isn't his style.

Thanks again for the replies, I'll see if I can find the mangazine mentioned earlier, I'm curious now :>

fluke39
07-29-2003, 11:32 AM
clint-ruin wrote:
- Thanks for the thoughtful replies.
-
- I believe that the damage effects from high powered
- shots or sudden explosions are just part of a
- general 'explosion' effect and aren't anything to do
- with blowing the prop off by itself. Same with
- taking out an engine from the HS129, PE8, PE2, JU88,
- etc. Although that's very fun all by itself. The
- falling prop blade spinning away on fire only seems
- to happen when they entire aircraft is destroyed.

although not very common i have blown the prop off some 2 engined planes without destroying the whole plane -

IIRC i have done it on a heinkel he111 - well it's more the front part of the engine + spinner and prop

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