PDA

View Full Version : 60 fps on consoles in 1v1's for competitive play



CalZeray
04-02-2017, 12:39 AM
Intro

I was always super excited for this game before it came out and i when i started playing i realized how it was framelocked at 30 fps for every mode even for 1v1 modes. Now that makes me very confused when it comes to competitive play and i'm going to break down this issue and talk about what the framelock is and what it does at high-level play as well as what we can do as a community to fix this issue and really take this game to the next level. All images and videos belong to their respective owner.

What is framelock?

http://blog.logicalincrements.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/fpsillustration.png

Frame locking is something the game devs incorporate in their titles when they want to achieve a constant refresh or repetition rate for each image in a game during a specific time interval. When they framelock a game at 30 fps (frames per second) the devs are looking to make the image repeat at a consistent rate per second no more and no less so that your eyes can stay immersed. In for honor's case, that repetition rate is 30 repetitions for one second. Let's say you're playing a game that is framelocked at 60 and your hardware can't keep up with the game then you'll experience drops in frame rate. So if you saw an explosion from up close in a shooter then your game would become instantly more choppy and the immersion would be broken. It also depends on the severity of the framedrop so if it's 3 frames that are dropped every time the game become chaotic than it's not that bad but if it's 20 frames in a game that runs at 60 fps then framelocking is a good thing.

How does it affect For Honor's competitive play?

For honor is very reactive when it comes to high-level play, if you want to defeat your opponent you have to react to their attacks quickly and retaliate accordingly based on how they will defend and vice-versa. That's where framelocking can disturb your gameplay experience. When you are trying to react to a fast attack, for example, you'll obviously be looking out for details when it comes to parrying, deflecting or dodging that certain attack. Things such as wich side the attack comes from, when does the attack come out, when does the marker start flashing, what type range does the attack have, when can the superior on block heavy/light come out to block another attack, when will the shield icon appear for GB... This is why i was super excited for this title and since i'm more of a Mortal Kombat X player i expected the game to run at 60 fps but i was disappointed when i heard the game ran at 30 frames on consoles even in the 1v1 mode. Since you have to pay attention to movement and markers in this game cutting the frames per second by two will make you less able to react to the opponent's attacks and parry in time. Let's go back to trying to my blocking of the light example, the reaso why you'll have a harder time parrying it is because of something called per frame calculations, wich is the reason why you sometimes see players trading hits that have same startup frame from neutral stance in fighting games. Those two players have 0.000... % chance to hit a button at the exact nanosecond but per frame calculations make it so it appears that they do. This is because per frame calculation make it so when an input is registered instead of coming out in an instant it comes out at the very beginning of the next frame. Now if you take a look at this graph you can see what happens when i press a button at the same time in 30 and 60fps.

60 fps: IIIIIII
30 fps: III I I

As you can see when i press a button at 2/60 of a second (about 33 milliseconds) the attack/parry/guard break that i inputed will come out at the red I at 60 fps (so instantly if a press it at the exact nanosecond wich no human can do). However it will come out at the frame after the invisible red I at 30 fps because that is the closest frame after my input. This is why trying to react to PK zones are so hard.

These videos explains how framerate affects gameplay more precisely

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL5kOyHWI_E


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-hlXNeZyJs

How can we fix this?

Cut down useless parts of the map

We all love it when our games look like a Bob Ross painting and i like it as well but when it comes to competitive 1v1 players don't care about crazy backgrounds they only care about how smooth the game plays. when playing 1v1's a part of the map is removed but is still there we just can't access it so what the devs could do is make a version of the map where the only thing that's present is the area the players are fighting in. As for the background just remove all the mountains and bridges and only leave the sky and clouds. The game will run better at 60 fps after that and if Rainbow Six siège can run at 60 fps on house in 4v4 then for honor could definitely run at that setting in 1v1. For honor would run at 30 fps in campaign, 4v4 and 2v2 while running at 60 fps in 1v1 with map changes. Other games have done this framelock altering method between modes like R.Six siège, Gears 4, gears remastered so the for honor devs have models to follow.

Make it so we can adjust graphical settings

Like i said i care very little about how the game looks when it comes to playing competitive but you have to let the people that want a better performance lower their resolution so the hardware of their consoles doesn't take such a big hit. If we get this option implemented then for honor would definitely work at 60 fps in 1v1.
This graph represents how fps drops every time the resolution is increased in certain games. https://31.media.tumblr.com/d7726dd5cfbed3bb6e683352082cce76/tumblr_inline_n6jzgysutj1sby691.png

Conclusion

That was all i had to say and if you have any corrections, ideas or opinions just send them this way.Try to spread the message if you love this game because these changes can only benefit competitive play. ;)

XImohtephXX
04-02-2017, 01:18 AM
Agreed. Just watching streamers on PC (Im on PS4) is truly night and day. I believe for the most part this would help with the reaction disparity between the heavier classes and lighter ones. My reactions are rather sharp and when conditions are perfect able to react to just about anything that can be thrown and more often than not manage a parry. This borders on impossible when as you said attacks are practically already in motion before my ability to block can adjust from the previous hit.

CalZeray
04-02-2017, 02:07 AM
Agreed. Just watching streamers on PC (I'm on PS4) is truly night and day. I believe for the most part this would help with the reaction disparity between the heavier classes and lighter ones. My reactions are rather sharp and when conditions are perfect able to react to just about anything that can be thrown and more often than not manage a parry. This borders on impossible when as you said attacks are practically already in motion before my ability to block can adjust from the previous hit.

I agree with you when the first hit connects and is part of a chain you will see the second hit 1/60 of a second later than someone at 60 fps on pc . and the same goes for every other frame. after you see the first frame of the second hit (so at 1/30 or 2/60 of a second) the same rule will apply for the rest of the images so a pc user at 60 fps will see an image at 1/60, 2/60, 3/60 , 4/60... of a second while you will see it at 1/30, 2/30 , 3/30... of a second wich is very bothersome. This makes parrying quick lights harder and makes superior on block light's/heavy's near impossible to do against pk. Especially when playing heavy classes with more guard switch startup.

AzureSky.
04-03-2017, 12:34 AM
Its a must for a competitive game based on reactions

DrExtrem
04-03-2017, 11:01 AM
Its not a problem of competitive play.

Its a problem with fast attacks and high latencies.

The pros were able to adapt.

supremechi
04-03-2017, 02:34 PM
Not a sigle fighting game should run on 30 fps...even on console.
I think most of the ppl would agree if the devs would sacrafice the graphics in 1v1/2v2 for the 60 fps.
I don't even understand why they locked this game to 30 fps in pvp. I don't care if the story mode runs on 30 fps, but when you have to play against a light spamming PK on 30 fps console, thats just a nightmare.
I can accept, that a ps4 or an xbox1 can't run a game like this on 60 fps, but if you compare to pc, they already cut out many effect from the ps4 version, so who would care, if they would cut more for the sake of 60 fps?

At most of the games doesn't really matter if you playing 30 or 60 fps, but when you have a reaction based fighting game like MKX, then 30 fps is just not enough. Imo this is a huge fail from the dev team, coz it's mean, if you wanna play seriously, then forget your console, and play it on pc. Basicly you can't reach the full potencial of the game. On PC if your reactions fast enough, you can parry a PK lgith, on PS4 you can parry a PK light attack, but not from reflex, but you have to predict where is the next attack come from.

So basicly at high lvl this game: on PC is a reflex based game, on Console is a predect based game, and thats just sad.

CalZeray great post tho!

CalZeray
04-03-2017, 03:51 PM
It's not a problem of competitive play.

It's a problem with fast attacks and high latencies.

The pros were able to adapt.

I agree that high latency is another factor that can influence your reaction time (ex: playing against teleporting orochis) but fps still matters even at high level (in cs: go you would have a harder time winning against someone playing with a GTX 1080 on overclock if you play on a toaster at 15 fps). Sure The pros can adapt to the slower fps on consoles but we are still human after all and that is the beauty of competitive gaming. If we play at 30 fps sure we can try to block a pk random light 1 time out of 3 but if we played on PC that's where the magic happens. That's where you see people do things like faint into faint into grab because the brain of the pros can see more details and in conclusion can achieve more than the console player. This is why pk received bans in console tourneys.

Hillbill79
04-03-2017, 04:23 PM
Consoles cant handle the game at more than 30.

Consoles are pretty poor hardware wise.

My graphics card is bigger than a console lol.

CalZeray
04-03-2017, 04:36 PM
Consoles can't handle the game at more than 30.

Consoles are pretty poor hardware wise.

My graphics card is bigger than a console lol.

I agree that a console is weaker than a good PC but take games like MKX that run at a perfect 60 fps 1080p what does it have? Smaller maps and fewer players fighting. If that game can run that way then why can't for honor's 1v1 as well?

Hillbill79
04-03-2017, 04:42 PM
For Honor is more graphically intensive.

CalZeray
04-03-2017, 04:49 PM
For Honor is more graphically intensive.

I know that's why i listed those two solutions on the post.

Solkoss
04-03-2017, 04:54 PM
Consoles cant handle the game at more than 30.

Consoles are pretty poor hardware wise.

My graphics card is bigger than a console lol.

My graphics card price is about 2 times bigger than the console too :P

For the price, the console is a great little system all things considered.

P.S. Great idea for 1v1 to have the FPS unlocked. In 1v1 and 2v2 my FPS goes up significantly! I have my FPS unlocked and I am sticking steady over 200 FPS in 1v1 and 2v2 and in 4v4 battle dipping significantly below 144 (or below 100 in very intense areas). Running with a GTX 1080 so a pretty beefy card.

Hillbill79
04-03-2017, 05:05 PM
I'm onl;y running with a Gtx 1060. Does a great job though.


My graphics card price is about 2 times bigger than the console too :P

For the price, the console is a great little system all things considered.

P.S. Great idea for 1v1 to have the FPS unlocked. In 1v1 and 2v2 my FPS goes up significantly! I have my FPS unlocked and I am sticking steady over 200 FPS in 1v1 and 2v2 and in 4v4 battle dipping significantly below 144 (or below 100 in very intense areas). Running with a GTX 1080 so a pretty beefy card.

Epoqx
04-03-2017, 05:38 PM
Tbh I don't bother loosing a bit of graphical immersion on 1v1 and 2v2 for some 60 fps. As i know, adaptative resolution is a must on consoles to cap to 60 fps. And as it runs without fps loss at cap 30, they should be able to cap it to 60.

And i agree that it should've been done, as it is focused competitive.

nyrue
04-03-2017, 05:44 PM
i would like to take a moment to acknowledge the irony of this thread, here is a fighting game where it is actually advantageous to play on PC

Hillbill79
04-03-2017, 05:51 PM
Ive never played a fighting game before this, using a mouse and keyboard.... steep learning curve. Controller is far easier, far less buttons to press at the same time, far less fingers needed to control it.

Yet, I still use mouse and keyboard. Go figure.

XImohtephXX
04-03-2017, 11:30 PM
Another PC game that switched to console was Smite. Originally capped at 30 for console looking back it looked like a flaming bag of *** compared to the 60 it now runs at for both. Not sure if the fix Hi-Rez did would be of a similar nature but maybe Ubisoft should ask? This is the only other game Ive played where fps differed depending on PC or console.

CalZeray
04-03-2017, 11:44 PM
In 1v1 and 2v2 my FPS goes up significantly! I have my FPS unlocked and I am sticking steadily over 200 FPS in 1v1 and 2v2 and in 4v4 battle dipping significantly below 144 (or below 100 in very intense areas). Running with a GTX 1080 so a pretty beefy card.

This huge difference proves that the devs locked the console versions at 30 fps just because of 4v4/Campaign. Just like rainbow six siège being locked for terrorist hunt this game is locked at 30 fps across all modes even 1v1 for no reason. The devs can actually framelock 1v1 at 60 fps if they wanted to we just have to tell them.

UbiJurassic
04-04-2017, 01:07 AM
Wow, this is a great write up, CalZeray! I'll make a note of your post and pass it along to the team.

CalZeray
04-04-2017, 03:12 AM
Wow, this is a great write-up, CalZeray! I'll make a note of your post and pass it along to the team.

Hi and thanks for noticing my post. I heard you were planning on adding ranked and tournaments to for honor. May this post guide you so you can give the best competitive experience to your dedicated player base :)

DrExtrem
04-04-2017, 07:47 AM
Hi and thanks for noticing my post. I heard you were planning on adding ranked and tournaments to for honor. May this post guide you so you can give the best competitive experience to your dedicated player base :)

Not only competitive 1on1 (and 2on2) would certainly benefit from 60fps. Even 45 would be a step into the right direction.

CalZeray
04-07-2017, 04:18 PM
Well, patch 1.05 is out and i have seen some pc specific changes only. Now that could make me a bit sad but at least they did more in this patch then in 1.04 and 1.03 . The boycott was probably a reason why they added so much and we have to keep showing them we care about this game and stay active on the forums, reddit etc... If they want to make ranked playlists in for honor then this post would help them.

DrExtrem
04-07-2017, 04:38 PM
The console specific notes will cone out, when the patches are actually applied.

Still ... I highly doubt, that console players will see console specific changes and adjustments outside of general stuff like user interface etc.

What the consoles need, is a console specific balance adjustment ... 60 fps is only a part of the solution and by far not the best.

Cutting eye candy, because you are not able to tweak the indicators and maybe timings, is not great.

CalZeray
04-07-2017, 06:19 PM
The console specific notes will come out when the patches are actually applied.

Still ... I highly doubt, that console players will see console specific changes and adjustments outside of general stuff like user interface etc.

What the consoles need, is a console specific balance adjustment ... 60 fps is only a part of the solution and by far not the best.

Cutting eye candy, because you are not able to tweak the indicators and maybe timings, is not great.

Console specific balance changes across all heroes to accommodate to 30 fps would be an interesting idea but it would also take Ubisoft alot more time and energy than just putting one mode at 60 fps. In my opinion, the best thing to do is try to bring consoles to the same playing field as pc's even if you can bring fps to 200 on those. That same playing field will make ubisoft's balance decisions more enlightened since everyone will be experiencing close to the same things on pc or consoles. A whole new character rework only for consoles would be pretty cool but i'm not sure the Dev team will try to divide balance changes that way.

BuddyJumps
04-07-2017, 06:39 PM
I actually don't get why For Honor is not running at 1080p60 on Xbox One. Halo 5 arguably has better graphics (neglecting artpass, design, etc. here) and runs smoothly at 60fps. I think, if For Honor would be coded more efficiently for XO, it could even run 4v4's at 60fps.

DrExtrem
04-07-2017, 07:29 PM
Console specific balance changes across all heroes to accommodate to 30 fps would be an interesting idea but it would also take Ubisoft alot more time and energy than just putting one mode at 60 fps. In my opinion, the best thing to do is try to bring consoles to the same playing field as pc's even if you can bring fps to 200 on those. That same playing field will make ubisoft's balance decisions more enlightened since everyone will be experiencing close to the same things on pc or consoles. A whole new character rework only for consoles would be pretty cool but i'm not sure the Dev team will try to divide balance changes that way.

Its not only the 60 fps.

Most players have standard tv screens and maybe even an home entertainment system running. The tv screen alone has a far worse response time, than even standard computer displays. Add lad, visual lag, input lag ...

In fact, all modes need adjustment and not only duels. If my perception is correct, duels are not even that popular because of the horrible matchmaking, lag, skill differences and all the other problems. Nobody wants to get spammed to death with light attacks. When I play duels with my warden, I predominantly meet orochis, nobushis and off course pks ... most of them spam light attacks.

Nobody wants to be screwed over by this cheap crap over and over again.

CalZeray
04-07-2017, 09:36 PM
Its not only the 60 fps.

Most players have standard tv screens and maybe even an home entertainment system running. The tv screen alone has a far worse response time, than even standard computer displays. Add lad, visual lag, input lag ...

In fact, all modes need adjustment and not only duels. If my perception is correct, duels are not even that popular because of the horrible matchmaking, lag, skill differences and all the other problems. Nobody wants to get spammed to death with light attacks. When I play duels with my warden, I predominantly meet orochis, nobushis and off course pks ... most of them spam light attacks.

Nobody wants to be screwed over by this cheap crap over and over again.

To fix the tv input lag getting a computer monitor would be optimal. Lag is also something that can affect gameplay but making the game run at 60 fps would definetely make the gameplay better and bring more people in those low activity modes despite all other problems.

GamingBotanist
04-09-2017, 02:43 AM
This is a fantastic post. Thank you for sharing!

Egotistic_Ez
04-09-2017, 02:58 AM
Its not only the 60 fps.

Most players have standard tv screens and maybe even an home entertainment system running. The tv screen alone has a far worse response time, than even standard computer displays. Add lad, visual lag, input lag ...

Now there's something I didn't consider. Starting to think console specific balance might be the way to go. Someone should really ask that next warrior's den (I'm asleep when they go live :( ).

DrExtrem
04-09-2017, 08:34 AM
To fix the tv input lag getting a computer monitor would be optimal. Lag is also something that can affect gameplay but making the game run at 60 fps would definitely make the gameplay better and bring more people in those low activity modes despite all other problems.

A computer monitor could work but mist console players are sitting on their couches in their living rooms - metres away from the screen. I "only" have a 37 screen and it is almost too small. Having a computer monitor of this size, that actually has a better response time, would cost a serious amount of cash.

Its their game, they co-developed it for consoles - its their job to fix the issue and not mine, to buy a big arse computer monitor to compensate their mistakes.

CalZeray
04-09-2017, 06:17 PM
A computer monitor could work but mist console players are sitting on their couches in their living rooms - metres away from the screen. I "only" have a 37 screen and it is almost too small. Having a computer monitor of this size, that actually has a better response time, would cost a serious amount of cash.

Its their game, they co-developed it for consoles - its their job to fix the issue and not mine, to buy a big arse computer monitor to compensate their mistakes.

I feel your pain, i used to play on a flat screen that had crazy input lag until i got the monitor. This, however, would be a great idea for a new post.

DrExtrem
04-09-2017, 06:55 PM
My pc days are defacto over. Except for a bit world of warships ... but that game is slow.

I am not buying a gaming monitor of this or any size, to play a (n atm second rate) fighting game on a consoles, that is locked to 30fps.

They need to fix the console experience - by adjusting the timings and interface output to console standards. And by moderately raising the fps to 45 fps, to match the network refresh rate.

CalZeray
04-17-2017, 05:25 AM
found some more videos on the subject it's really interesting stuff

Isenhauwer
05-03-2017, 09:01 AM
Thanks for sharing. I gues console got shafted.

DrExtrem
05-03-2017, 04:09 PM
Thanks for sharing. I gues console got shafted.

Console will get shafted even more, if they need parry and defense.

HumbleHatNate
05-04-2017, 02:06 AM
If you have all this knowledge of video games and how they work, why didnt you just buy a PC? Same price, slightly better performance, lots more freedom.

CalZeray
05-06-2017, 05:56 AM
If you have all this knowledge of video games and how they work, why didnt you just buy a PC? Same price, slightly better performance, lots more freedom.

-friends that play FH on Xbox
-The fact that i love warner bros. games(they are pretty bad at PC ports) Batman Arkham knight had to be pulled from steam on launch XD
-The fact that i mostly play fighting games that are already optimized at 60 fps 1080p on consoles
-The exclusives (Injustice 2 will be console only)
-The fact that even if i would switch to pc the game characters will still get patched the same on pc and consoles wich means the framerate difference would still affect the game and it's buff/nerf patches for all platforms.

CalZeray
05-14-2017, 06:40 AM
Patch 1.07 is pretty nice but no console specifics. Does anyone know when the ranked patch is going to come or if 1.07 will have console changes coming to it? If not then they have to bring it in the ranked mode update.

kweassa1917
05-14-2017, 07:47 AM
For Honor is more graphically intensive.

Yep. Not just a "lot", but like... the difference between a '90s game and a 2000's game would be less than the difference between stuff like MKX and FH. Another problem is that PC specs are increasing at a very higher rate than consoles are. For example, the processors in use for PS4 are currently extinct and out of production since 2015 -- because they've gone obsolete. That's how much more powerful PCs are.

So basically, the devs made a choice between...

(a) just give up on console users and never give them the chance to enjoy FH
(b) let the console users have a chance to enjoy FH, albeit a few "personality quirks" due to the downgrade


Asking them to comeup with a 60fps version of FH for consoles at this point, is basically the same thing as asking them to build one from scratch -- which probably isn't going to happen. Hopefully if the devs ever come up with a sequel in the coming years, and consoles finally make some major upgrades, then it may become possible.


But ultimately, if you observe the current tendencies of PC evolution, IMO it's much more likely that in the near future "consoles" will probably become obsolete, and ultimately gaming will be totally interused with the PC.

So my recommendation... save up for a new PC.

Maxime_Qc-
05-14-2017, 11:45 AM
that would be awesome to have the game upgrade to 60 fps !!!

would be more easy to react fast and deflect ect .. oh wait ..forget what i say if it help assassins in any way people will vote NO !! :/

HumbleHatNate
05-15-2017, 05:00 AM
-friends that play FH on Xbox
-The fact that i love warner bros. games(they are pretty bad at PC ports) Batman Arkham knight had to be pulled from steam on launch XD
-The fact that i mostly play fighting games that are already optimized at 60 fps 1080p on consoles
-The exclusives (Injustice 2 will be console only)
-The fact that even if i would switch to pc the game characters will still get patched the same on pc and consoles wich means the framerate difference would still affect the game and it's buff/nerf patches for all platforms.

I mean, all of those are valid points.
But there are way too many perks of being a PC gamer.
Like more freedom, you can adjust your graphics however you like and you arent at the mercy of the devs. Its generally cheaper, you dont have to pay to get online and games go on sale all the time.
The exclusives are much better and greater in numbers on PC.
But your friends playing on console is a good point, not everybody is smart enough to game on a PC.

Vordred
05-15-2017, 06:06 AM
i'd take a graphical hit on consoles to have 60fps, it really is needed in this type of game.

on the TV front i don't have to much issue with delay, as i play on 42" plasma, that also has a has a game mode that cracks up the response time. and and even on normal setting the response time is higher than my LCD TV's

GenLiu
05-15-2017, 01:45 PM
If Ubi plans on making parries harder (especially against light attacks) then okay but otherwise, forget about it.
Light attacks are not a problem to block when you have enough practice (even the PK and Valk ones) and the latency on parry actually make the game more fun to play on console.

Again, I'm not against the idea of having a 6Ofps game but just make the proper adjustment so that parry are ACTUALLY skilled because right now they're not on PC and everyone with a little of practice can manage to pull them off, which makes the meta very passive on this support.

CalZeray
06-02-2017, 05:00 AM
If Ubi plans on making parries harder (especially against light attacks) then okay but otherwise, forget about it.
Light attacks are not a problem to block when you have enough practice (even the PK and Valk ones) and the latency on parry actually make the game more fun to play on console.

Again, I'm not against the idea of having a 6Ofps game but just make the proper adjustment so that parry are ACTUALLY skilled because right now they're not on PC and everyone with a little of practice can manage to pull them off, which makes the meta very passive on this support.

Yeah good point on pc having less skill required for a parry but you have to keep in mind that some characters have different guardswitch speeds so just making the game 60 fps so everyone on all platforms are on the same page is a start(atleast for 1v1's) then we can adjust the game when people are at the same level.

DFQN1
06-02-2017, 12:31 PM
Consoles cant handle the game at more than 30.

Consoles are pretty poor hardware wise.

My graphics card is bigger than a console lol.

Excuse me but there are a lot of games running at solid 60 fps on console. So I don't know why it is so hard for For Honor to be at solid 60 fps.

CalZeray
06-02-2017, 11:15 PM
Excuse me but there are a lot of games running at solid 60 fps on console. So I don't know why it is so hard for For Honor to be at solid 60 fps.

If they want to introduce ranked to the game then they can take a few examples from the newly released Injustice 2 game.