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View Full Version : Zone Attacks.. Should they go??? do we really need them??



Vordred
03-23-2017, 11:12 PM
so i see a lot of people complain about zone attacks, and i was wondering. do we really even need them??

they are actually really crap at hitting multiple people when surrounded. and well that was their original purpose they are almost never used for that (again cause they don't really work well for that) instead they are used quick kinda cheap attack in duels instead.

now i admit i play Lawbringer, Conq, Warden and Zerker. so only one of the characters i play has a good zone. but i would be happy to see them go. on warden i could live without it.

just wondering what people think. i wouldn't mind if they were removed.

Alchemist-21-
03-23-2017, 11:16 PM
They really help with clearing out minions.

Vordred
03-23-2017, 11:19 PM
true, but it's not a huge deal, on the lawbringer i use it for wave clear. but on the warden swinging two heavies is just as effective as the ZA. so again depends on the character. zerker ZA is terrible for wave clear. Kensei's is bad at it too.

so again it's something we could live without.

Iskaroth
03-23-2017, 11:30 PM
Characters in this game have already incredibly limited movesets so removing anything is terrible idea imo. They should buff bad zones instead of nerfing/removig the few viable ones.

PlagueGripes
03-23-2017, 11:39 PM
They probably should never be cancel-able. And also shouldn't come out faster than a light attack. Or, if they do, the first hit should deal basically no damage but only clear people back.

The main problem with them is people using them as a way to perform a light attack out of stance.

Of course, it's one of the few 'guarantee' options in the game right now, which is why people are using it in such a jank way.

NeoLocutus
03-23-2017, 11:48 PM
They really help with clearing out minions.

Pretty much this.

Sometimes I use this attack with the Kensei when I'm surrounded by the puny soldiers, otherwise I simply rely on the heavy attack.

Vordred
03-23-2017, 11:52 PM
They probably should never be cancel-able. And also shouldn't come out faster than a light attack. Or, if they do, the first hit should deal basically no damage but only clear people back.

The main problem with them is people using them as a way to perform a light attack out of stance.

Of course, it's one of the few 'guarantee' options in the game right now, which is why people are using it in such a jank way.

yeah thats kinda what i was getting at, they are not being used for what they are meant for, and more being abused because of the way they work. but since they aren't even that great at what they were intended for. i don't think they are needed. and i can't see ubi changing them to stop them being abused

Spammer_Jammer
03-24-2017, 12:35 AM
they are retar ded and should be removed... they were not ment for this kind of abuse! remove them from 1v1 and 2v2 atleast...

Gray360UK
03-24-2017, 12:40 AM
Yeah I have one Order to kill 400 minions and another to kill 300 today, one for PvP, one for AI. I do not want to kill 700 minions (at all) without a Zone Attack, thank you ;)

Simi_Xiamara_
03-24-2017, 01:13 AM
Zone attacks just need to be fixed... Warden and orochi both spin with their zone attack but I swear the warning indicator don't pop up as soon as they use zone attack.

Uncle-Smough
03-24-2017, 01:15 AM
I think they need to be slowed down on certain characters and be adjusted to actually do what they are supposed to do. Wipe out large groups of little minions

Simi_Xiamara_
03-24-2017, 01:29 AM
I think they need to be slowed down on certain characters and be adjusted to actually do what they are supposed to do. Wipe out large groups of little minions Um no zone attacks are fine in duels just need to be fixed. The top attack on a warden is faster then a zone attack but the zone attack is harder to block. I think it's cuz the warning indication don't start as soon as the zone attack happens. Also zone attacks are way to use full to be removed from actual combat.(only way a warden can punish a ranged character after a parry is by zone attacking)

Eddeh07
03-24-2017, 01:39 AM
I like them as a viable tactic to mix up the timing of an attack. Even as Lawbringer in 1v1, I will sometimes throw out a zone attack. It's high risk, because it uses so much stamina, but the block window is different to any of my other attacks which can sometimes be enough to land some damage on a player with good parry skills.

I also sometimes play Raider (not because he's any good, he's just crazy fun to play as!). The zone attack is pretty much his only trick shot, and if you take that away, he'd pretty much be useless!

I don't play Nobushi, but I have seen countless times where she has managed to kill off my unsuspecting brawl partner who was waiting patiently in the wings having barely won their own 1v1. I can't be angry about that. That's just good/bad play/positioning depending which side you're coming from.

I say keep them as is

teksuo1
03-24-2017, 02:46 AM
hotfix :" you can now only use zone attacks if there are 5+ soldiers within 5 yards of you."
:cool:

*in case it's not obvious, i'm just kidding. I'd simply fix the indicator bug on PK's zone and maybe slow it down a tiny bit.

(even warden's one is fine, it's quick but it leaves him vulnerable - even in revenge mode) whereas PK can just spam it by cancelling the second part while on revenge with next to no downside.

Simi_Xiamara_
03-24-2017, 02:59 AM
hotfix :" you can now only use zone attacks if there are 5+ soldiers within 5 yards of you".
If this gets added to the game we know who to blame.
Also wardens zone attack isnt that great for groups of ppl my suggestion is they replace it with garrens E skill (I think it's his E) spin to win also you have to make her say For "Whatever homeland they are fighting for" or it won't be as effective

Chucky_Jones
03-24-2017, 05:27 AM
They should just all deal 1 damage so they only really hurt minions or all the bad ones should be buffed to be viable. I actually think that they were intended for use against other players because why else would raider's zone be unblockable?

DrExtrem
03-24-2017, 09:57 AM
Yeah I have one Order to kill 400 minions and another to kill 300 today, one for PvP, one for AI. I do not want to kill 700 minions (at all) without a Zone Attack, thank you ;)

It is possible with the wardens light-heavy combo. It is fast and the heavy strike covers a wide arc.
___

But zone attacks are needed and on some heroes, they need to be fast to do certain things.

The wardens zone attack is a heavily debated subject. Without it, the warden would nit be able to punish the shugoki after a parry or interrupt several unblockable moves - his limited mobility makes this move important. Without other adjustments, it is a needed (and very expensive) tactical tool.

Clearing minions is only one factor.

Alchemist..
03-24-2017, 11:20 AM
Next thing is actually you can glitch zone parry indicator for slower chars. So if raider glitch it in light>heavy combo he deal about 75 no risk damage... sometimes i fight wardens whitch offense is based to interrupt your every attack by zone or they just spam it dodge back, load stamina>repeat. Zones need to be rebuilded bc every week they are more out of control

DrExtrem
03-24-2017, 11:36 AM
Next thing is actually you can glitch zone parry indicator for slower chars. So if raider glitch it in light>heavy combo he deal about 75 no risk damage... sometimes i fight wardens whitch offense is based to interrupt your every attack by zone or they just spam it dodge back, load stamina>repeat. Zones need to be rebuilded bc every week they are more out of control

I agree ... but only changing zone attacks is not going to cut it.

The whole system is damage on so many layers. If it was a warship, the captain would evacuate.

This game turn more and more into a dumpster fire of combat exploitation. If you don't rework and rebalance certain aspects of the combat system, this gem will be destroyed.

Defensive meta in high level play is broken
Light attack spam in medium level play is broken
Guard breaking in low to mid level play is broken
Zone attacks are ranging from overpowered to borderline useful
Revenge is broken on all levels

... I could continue.


Ubisoft please. We worked out a lot of ideas on how to balance defense, offense, guard breaking, zone attacks and lots of other stuff. Go to the combat section and check out our posts. Read them and foward them to the masters of combat.

Alchemist..
03-24-2017, 12:20 PM
I agree ... but only changing zone attacks is not going to cut it.

The whole system is damage on so many layers. If it was a warship, the captain would evacuate.

This game turn more and more into a dumpster fire of combat exploitation. If you don't rework and rebalance certain aspects of the combat system, this gem will be destroyed.

Defensive meta in high level play is broken
Light attack spam in medium level play is broken
Guard breaking in low to mid level play is broken
Zone attacks are ranging from overpowered to borderline useful
Revenge is broken on all levels

... I could continue.


Ubisoft please. We worked out a lot of ideas on how to balance defense, offense, guard breaking, zone attacks and lots of other stuff. Go to the combat section and check out our posts. Read them and foward them to the masters of combat.

Yes, for now is just mountain of things to fix but game not going any forward. Zone indicators are broken untill closed beta, and still they didn't fix it. Thats simple indicator, i dont thing its taking that much time to fix it, they just dont care. I also understand they cant just push everythink without long tests bu why they didnt make beta build and try make whole proces faster? Im sure that tons of playérs would be hyped to test new things and help improve things but they dont care. They not listening community, they already have our money so they will do what, when and how they want. If you dont like it, its your problem. That how its looks for me.

Iuslez_
03-24-2017, 12:54 PM
seriously, what's with all the complaining, most zone attack are usefull and balanced. They are one of the few usable moves and removing/nerfing them will even more reduce the numbers of attack you can throw. Do you really want this game to be light spam only?

Yes they are strong, but also come at high cost : huge stamina consumption, and quite often open you up to a counter if your opponent plays well. I don't mind the warden zone : it is very strong, but don't forget that a simple block on your side gives a guaranteed GB on the warden!

I often use them : my main is a raider, withouth the zone I could just as well throw him away. Wenn playing shugoki: nice gap closer ; oroshi : one of the two only usable moves ; warlord : nice mix-up ; etc.

Two things need to be changed:
- the indicator glitch needs to be corrected
- using a zone should be punishable if the opponent reacts accordingly. I see two problematic zones: PK and Warlord (not sure on warlord, never got punished yet when using it). They are both completely safe to use. Too fast to be parried (especially with indicator glitch) and can't be punished at all. Especially the PK, the zone (witch glitch again) > cancel > zone > repeat is way too strong, especially Under revenge.

I don't understand what you mean with slower classes using the glitch indicator... even if they use them you still have way enough time to cancel your attack and parry his zone (and if you threw a light, you'll interrupt him anyway)

Alchemist..
03-24-2017, 01:28 PM
seriously, what's with all the complaining, most zone attack are usefull and balanced. They are one of the few usable moves and removing/nerfing them will even more reduce the numbers of attack you can throw. Do you really want this game to be light spam only?

Yes they are strong, but also come at high cost : huge stamina consumption, and quite often open you up to a counter if your opponent plays well. I don't mind the warden zone : it is very strong, but don't forget that a simple block on your side gives a guaranteed GB on the warden!

I often use them : my main is a raider, withouth the zone I could just as well throw him away. Wenn playing shugoki: nice gap closer ; oroshi : one of the two only usable moves ; warlord : nice mix-up ; etc.

Two things need to be changed:
- the indicator glitch needs to be corrected
- using a zone should be punishable if the opponent reacts accordingly. I see two problematic zones: PK and Warlord (not sure on warlord, never got punished yet when using it). They are both completely safe to use. Too fast to be parried (especially with indicator glitch) and can't be punished at all. Especially the PK, the zone (witch glitch again) > cancel > zone > repeat is way too strong, especially Under revenge.

I don't understand what you mean with slower classes using the glitch indicator... even if they use them you still have way enough time to cancel your attack and parry his zone (and if you threw a light, you'll interrupt him anyway)

You can glitch zone parry indicator. They are simply unparryable witch in raider case giving you unblockable unparryable attack. Kensei also can do that and his zone is interruptable so its basically free dmg

zide-
03-24-2017, 01:41 PM
ABSOLUTELY we need zone attacks. The game is so defense focused already that even further reducing tools for attacking and further encouraging turtleing would just make the game even worse.

DrExtrem
03-24-2017, 01:42 PM
You can glitch zone parry indicator. They are simply unparryable witch in raider case giving you unblockable unparryable attack. Kensei also can do that and his zone is interruptable so its basically free dmg

All hail the mighty glitch

Alchemist..
03-24-2017, 02:19 PM
ABSOLUTELY we need zone attacks. The game is so defense focused already that even further reducing tools for attacking and further encouraging turtleing would just make the game even worse.

But wardens zone is already way of turtleing. You can just wait to my move and interrupt it with zone and in this situation i can only do the same. Wait for your zone block and gb>punish you

Duuklah
03-24-2017, 03:58 PM
Their speed needs to be reduced greatly and the indications need to be normalized.

Right now there are classes they exploit this to no end. Using it 1-5 times per duel for free damage.

Its almost as if you start with 70% or less health vs a zone attack oro pk warden and to some extent WL.

This needs to be a specialized move that helps clear minion waves and hits a lot of players. Not an aoe faster than light attack with deceptive indications.

Prophit618
03-24-2017, 04:38 PM
PK's zone at least needs to uncancellable. Or for the first hit to be a poke instead of full damage. It is way too abusable in it's current state, and as a PK main I resent what it does to our reputation.

Beyond that, the other zone attacks are either fine as they are (Warden, Nobushi stand out in particular) or actually need to be buffed.

And yeah, the indicator glitches should be addressed as well, obviously. But that goes without saying, since it is a glitch :)

Helnekromancer
03-24-2017, 05:05 PM
Yes Zone attacks are definitely needed. Your telling me that if I'm the last one alive. I'm just suppose to either roll over or poke them one at a time? No I'm going to try to hit all of them at the same time to let them know "hey back off, you're not just going to spam top heavies on me to death". Same goes for 2v2 if you have to carry and in 1v1 duels, it's very useful for mix up combos the more options I have to attack, the more likely my odds of winning. If you played a lot and memorized where zone attacks hit you can easily parry them. I've had my zone attack as a Nobushi parried so many times it's not that hard just pay attention. Only zone attack I have a problem with is Peacekeepers yes it's incredibly fast and the indicator is too slow but that doesn't mean I want all zone attacks to go away, just need to predict it coming and block ahead of time just like wardens zone attack. Just takes practice.

Iuslez_
03-24-2017, 07:53 PM
You can glitch zone parry indicator. They are simply unparryable witch in raider case giving you unblockable unparryable attack. Kensei also can do that and his zone is interruptable so its basically free dmg
isn't that due to the unlock tech/glitch? In that case it doesn't have anything in common with the indicator glitch

Alchemist..
03-24-2017, 08:07 PM
isn't that due to the unlock tech/glitch? In that case it doesn't have anything in common with the indicator glitch

You not understand. After that it not showing you white indicator when is parry window

Iuslez_
03-24-2017, 09:14 PM
You not understand. After that it not showing you white indicator when is parry window

interesting, didn't know that. But can you still parry it tho? Most people don't use the indicator anyway (I sure don't)

totalymew
03-24-2017, 09:49 PM
Um no zone attacks are fine in duels just need to be fixed. The top attack on a warden is faster then a zone attack but the zone attack is harder to block. I think it's cuz the warning indication don't start as soon as the zone attack happens. Also zone attacks are way to use full to be removed from actual combat.(only way a warden can punish a ranged character after a parry is by zone attacking)

Warden's top light is 15 frames while his zone attack is 12 frames. Please know what you are talking about before talking about it.

xjlxking
03-24-2017, 10:47 PM
I find most abilities "useless". Lets remove them so that way we have even less options to play this game.


Idiotic opening statement and topic.

Simi_Xiamara_
03-24-2017, 11:09 PM
Warden's top light is 15 frames while his zone attack is 12 frames. Please know what you are talking about before talking about it.

Only 12? If I'm not mistaken that same speed as a pk. And I can block a pk all day...like I said the indicator must be off or somthing. Could also be the lack of animation that's tripping ppl up? And I play warden so I do know what I'm talking about. The zone attack feels slower then top light attack or at very least the same speed. But when trying block it its Def faster then pk light attack.

Alchemist..
03-24-2017, 11:13 PM
interesting, didn't know that. But can you still parry it tho? Most people don't use the indicator anyway (I sure don't)
You cant. But anyway i thing even if i try do it "on memory" you dont have chance. Slow chars have tricky parry window for heavys, attacks feels like slowing down before parry windo and speeding up after, at least for me

UbiJurassic
03-25-2017, 12:42 AM
This is great feedback regarding zone attacks, everyone! We'll be sure to forward it along to the team. :)

Vordred
03-25-2017, 05:01 AM
don't know why people say the top light on warden is faster than zone, as it's not. but even if it was the ZA is a pain because with the top light you get a warning. the chracter always switches stance before attacking so you get that slit second warning its coming, where as the ZA you don't as they can move to top guard and then throw out a fast attack from the right.

that's the main problem with them, very quick and unlike other attacks they happen without warning, or to some extend a false one, as again you see them change stance and they a attack animation start up, so you think it has to come from that direction, but nope.