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flyingscampi
08-18-2004, 04:02 AM
Just finished Heinz Knoke's book and how he used the spiral climb as one of his most successful evasion techniques in his 109 which few aircraft could match.

I was wondering if somebody could describe how it's best done - ie speed, climb angle, tightness of turn etc. Also whether the modelling in the game permits the spiral climb to be a useful tactic.

I am not trolling about the 109 flight model so pleeeease don't turn my thread into a whine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm just a noob trying to work out how to survive AEP combat in his 109.

Regarding Knoke I found this site which is quite interesting:

http://www.chez.com/franckruffino/My-Site/The_victories.htm

flyingscampi
08-18-2004, 04:02 AM
Just finished Heinz Knoke's book and how he used the spiral climb as one of his most successful evasion techniques in his 109 which few aircraft could match.

I was wondering if somebody could describe how it's best done - ie speed, climb angle, tightness of turn etc. Also whether the modelling in the game permits the spiral climb to be a useful tactic.

I am not trolling about the 109 flight model so pleeeease don't turn my thread into a whine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm just a noob trying to work out how to survive AEP combat in his 109.

Regarding Knoke I found this site which is quite interesting:

http://www.chez.com/franckruffino/My-Site/The_victories.htm

jurinko
08-18-2004, 04:33 AM
Climbing turn can be done, but only at right circumstances otherwise you will serve yoursef on the silver plate to the enemy.
Generally you need some advantage before starting the climbing turn - speed, altitude or mutual distance. There is no sense to start climbing turn in A4 against Mk.V and if the Spit is 100m behind you with the same speed.
You roll to one side and pull the stick slightly to continually gain the altitude in a spiral, keeping the speed around 220-270kph (for 109). At the top of the spiral you may also use flaps for some time. Enemy should be lured to turn after you (which instantly bleeds his energy) and just to find that he is not able to follow you in climbing turn and when trying to put the guns before you he can eventually stall. However, you must judge your mutual E state very carefully - Spits or Yaks have very light E bleed, can turn very quickly and with similar E they can gain the angle quite easily on you.
In optimal situation you can get some reasonable alt advantage and change some energy for harder turn which allows you to get an angle on the enemy. Smart enemies often dive away when they see you are getting into advantage, the dumb ones continue desperately until stall or getting shoot down.

---------------------
Letka_13/Liptow @ HL

[This message was edited by jurinko on Wed August 18 2004 at 03:48 AM.]

WOLFMondo
08-18-2004, 05:02 AM
I'd never spiral climb with a spit on my tail! That plane is the king of spiral climb. I think its a great manouver but one that requires allot of spacial awareness and constant looking back to see how your opponent is doing.

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F19_Ob
08-18-2004, 05:05 AM
jurinko made some good points.

Your success also depends on your opponents skill. He may be very experienced and understand what u are trying to do, and brake off or use his last bit of energy and experience to hang on his prop and risk a snapshot at u.

U win some and lose some.

JG54_Arnie
08-18-2004, 05:36 AM
But it is usable as proper tactic in the game, defenitely. It works great even.

Just experiment with it and go to the edge. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

---------------------------
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F19_Ob
08-18-2004, 05:41 AM
Hurricanes lose speed fast when climbing, and they accellerate slowly too.
This is a good candidate to practise on.
But remember that a hurri with speed and/or altitude is a dangerous opponent. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Zayets
08-18-2004, 07:12 AM
You fighterjocks are amazing.I never did these maneuvers in IL2.Maybe because I'm too ignorant.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Zayets out

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geetarman
08-18-2004, 07:49 AM
Works well with a P-38 too. Just make sure the climb is really shallow! It will pull away from a large majority of the aircraft

Blutarski2004
08-18-2004, 08:44 AM
Spiral climbs tend to work in most flight sims - not least because of the difficult target it presents.

In the real world, specific excess power, rate of climb, and angle of climb differences will be the arbiters of whether a spiral climb will be effective againmst a given opponent.

BLUTARSKI

Blutarski2004
08-18-2004, 08:51 AM
QUOTE -
Before I could fire another burst, two 109s wheeled in behind me. I broke hard into attack pulling the Spitfire into a climbing, spiraling turn, as I did so: a maneuver I had discovered in previous combats with 109s to be particularly effective. And it was no less effective now, the Messerschmitts literally "fell out of the sky" as they stalled in an attempt to follow me.
- UNQUOTE

Based on an experience of F/Lt Al Deere during BoB.

BLUTARSKI

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2004, 08:59 AM
The key to the spiral climb is 1) a very accurate assessment of the energy difference between you and your opponent and 2) timing

How tight to make the spiral? It changes during the maneuver. At first, not too tight, because you need to lure the opponent into thinking he's going to get a shot. If he sees you're trying to "rope a dope", he might opt out. So, you do a lazy turn and shallow climb and let him bore in.

As he gets closer, you steepen the climb, tighten the turn as necessary to deny the shot, and in so doing, tighten the noose. If you do it right, even if your opponent now knows what's happening, he'll have little energy to do anything about it.

When I'm doing this, I like to imagine the end game as "going over the enemy's head": as I look out my 5:00 or 7:00, I can see the enemy's canopy and nose (if they're in a line pointing at me, I've really messed up!!!). I try to maneuver so that I'm going over his nose and canopy towards his tail; If the enemy can't get those in a line, he can't get a shot at me

After you've sapped his energy so badly he can't raise his nose to get a shot, and he's too slow to easily get away, hopefully, you'll be close to directly above him, and can chop throttle, drop flaps and hammerhead down on him.

And yes, a Spit is a poor choice for spiral climbing because it's about the closest thing to a 109 in terms of climb. To rope-a-dope a Spit, you need to be sure you have a distinct intial energy edge. If you don't the Spit will likely have a chance to get a shot during the spiral...and with those magic Hispanos you don't want that.

Skullin
08-18-2004, 09:19 AM
Love spiral climbing!! 2 things to try out at the top...

1. If the enemy is on your 6 and getting to firing range (in other words, your gettings scared), then gradually pull harder and harder until you stall. This should flip your plane half way, then release and pull into the new direction... very hard to follow, and should shake the enemy. I've even ended up pointing right at the bogey a few times and that's nice! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

2. almost the same idea, but hamerhead at the top, and then when you flip over find the bogey and swoop back down on him. Best defense is a good offense !!

Fehler
08-18-2004, 01:06 PM
All of these are good points. Another thing I do when spiral climbing is keep the enemy in my 4 O'Clock early on. When both planes start to bleed energy and you want to sucker the guy a little more (Really burn off his E) allow him to get in your 5-5:30 potition. He will try and pull harder to shoot almost always. That bleeds the remaining E he has and most of the time he will stall.

In a 190 always spiral to the right, never the left! When you stall, the plane almost always stalls to the right which wil point you nose down and easy to escape the stall.

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http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

flyingscampi
08-18-2004, 03:16 PM
Bah. Mitchell knew his stuff.

Thanks very much for the detailed replies, I'll start practicing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif