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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:08 AM
I found quite an interesting article about the Battle of Britain. It had some good extracts. For example:
There are several advantages to the frontal attack when in combat, providing that you can get into the right position. You avoid the concentration of fire from a bombers rear gunners and as the twin engined aircraft has no guns firing forward, the pilot and crew are more vulnerable from the front, and perhaps above all it makes it very difficult for the escorting fighters to carry out their protective role. Of course, the disadvantage is that there is so little time. The relative closing speed would be something approaching 600 mph this is almost nearly 300 yards per second. The optimum range of our guns was about 300 yards, so if you could effectively get your sights on the target at 600 yards, you could press the button for one second and this would leave you with one second to break away, many had this tactic down to a fine art, many didn't, but the effect on the enemy formation was devastating.
Flight Lieutenant D.L.Armitage 266 Squadron

There was also quite a detailed account from a book about one pilots success on the single day:
Detached from the rest of the squadron, his vee of three aircraft was vectored on to an enemy formation. Ahead of him and about 500 feet above Gleave saw line-astern formations of Bf109s riding above the haze, well spaced out and stretching as far as the eye could see. It was the culmination of all Gleave's ambitions. Unhesitating, he flew right through the enemy fighters.
He remembered the scene clearly, and described the smell of the cordite, the hiss of the pneumatics, and the way the Hurricane's nose dipped as the guns recoiled.
He gave the first Bf 109 a four-second burst and saw his bullets hitting the engine. He saw the Perspex of the hood shatter into fragments that sparkled in the sunlight. The Bf109 rolled onto its back, slewed, and then dropped, nose down, to the earth. Another enemy aircraft came into his sights. Gleave turned with him, firing bullets that brought black smoke from the wings before the Bf109 dropped vertically, still smoking. Gleave narrowly missed colliding with his third victim, and then gave him a three-second burst as the Messerschmitt pulled ahead and turned into the gunfire. The cockpit seemed empty; the pilot slumped forward out of sight. The Messerschmitt fell. The German pilots were trying to maintain formation and by now there was so much gunfire curving through the air that Gleave had the impression of flying through a gigantic golden bird-cage. A fourth Messerschmitt passed slightly above Gleave, and he turned and climbed to fire into the underside of its fuselage. But after two or three seconds' firing Gleave heard the ominous clicking that told him he had used up all his bullets. But already the fourth victim was mortally hit, and rolled on its back before falling away.

In spite of his age and rank, Gleave possessed the one quality that distinguished the ace pilots on both sides. It was something more important than flying skill, more important than keen eyesight, even more important than quick reaction times and the ability to "aim off" for the correct deflection. Such men as Gleave had the nerve to fly on collision courses (that forward-facing guns require) very, very close to the enemy. Gleave was 175 yards from his first victim (very close by 1940 standards) and 120 yards from the second one. But the third and fourth Messerschmitts were hit from only 60 and 75 yards respectively. At such close quarters the eight machine guns did terrible damage.

Len Deighton Fighter Jonathan Cape 1977 p200

Despite his hard work, the pilot was not given a single kill, since the RAF would not accept that he could shoot so many 109s down in such a short time, so he was only given four probables. The link to the website is:
http://www.battleofbritain.net/0031.html

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:08 AM
I found quite an interesting article about the Battle of Britain. It had some good extracts. For example:
There are several advantages to the frontal attack when in combat, providing that you can get into the right position. You avoid the concentration of fire from a bombers rear gunners and as the twin engined aircraft has no guns firing forward, the pilot and crew are more vulnerable from the front, and perhaps above all it makes it very difficult for the escorting fighters to carry out their protective role. Of course, the disadvantage is that there is so little time. The relative closing speed would be something approaching 600 mph this is almost nearly 300 yards per second. The optimum range of our guns was about 300 yards, so if you could effectively get your sights on the target at 600 yards, you could press the button for one second and this would leave you with one second to break away, many had this tactic down to a fine art, many didn't, but the effect on the enemy formation was devastating.
Flight Lieutenant D.L.Armitage 266 Squadron

There was also quite a detailed account from a book about one pilots success on the single day:
Detached from the rest of the squadron, his vee of three aircraft was vectored on to an enemy formation. Ahead of him and about 500 feet above Gleave saw line-astern formations of Bf109s riding above the haze, well spaced out and stretching as far as the eye could see. It was the culmination of all Gleave's ambitions. Unhesitating, he flew right through the enemy fighters.
He remembered the scene clearly, and described the smell of the cordite, the hiss of the pneumatics, and the way the Hurricane's nose dipped as the guns recoiled.
He gave the first Bf 109 a four-second burst and saw his bullets hitting the engine. He saw the Perspex of the hood shatter into fragments that sparkled in the sunlight. The Bf109 rolled onto its back, slewed, and then dropped, nose down, to the earth. Another enemy aircraft came into his sights. Gleave turned with him, firing bullets that brought black smoke from the wings before the Bf109 dropped vertically, still smoking. Gleave narrowly missed colliding with his third victim, and then gave him a three-second burst as the Messerschmitt pulled ahead and turned into the gunfire. The cockpit seemed empty; the pilot slumped forward out of sight. The Messerschmitt fell. The German pilots were trying to maintain formation and by now there was so much gunfire curving through the air that Gleave had the impression of flying through a gigantic golden bird-cage. A fourth Messerschmitt passed slightly above Gleave, and he turned and climbed to fire into the underside of its fuselage. But after two or three seconds' firing Gleave heard the ominous clicking that told him he had used up all his bullets. But already the fourth victim was mortally hit, and rolled on its back before falling away.

In spite of his age and rank, Gleave possessed the one quality that distinguished the ace pilots on both sides. It was something more important than flying skill, more important than keen eyesight, even more important than quick reaction times and the ability to "aim off" for the correct deflection. Such men as Gleave had the nerve to fly on collision courses (that forward-facing guns require) very, very close to the enemy. Gleave was 175 yards from his first victim (very close by 1940 standards) and 120 yards from the second one. But the third and fourth Messerschmitts were hit from only 60 and 75 yards respectively. At such close quarters the eight machine guns did terrible damage.

Len Deighton Fighter Jonathan Cape 1977 p200

Despite his hard work, the pilot was not given a single kill, since the RAF would not accept that he could shoot so many 109s down in such a short time, so he was only given four probables. The link to the website is:
http://www.battleofbritain.net/0031.html

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:23 AM
I tried hadons on bombers many times.They seem not to have the PK system.

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:39 AM
I will always make a head on attempt against He111s and Ju88s if the opportunity presents. There is no risk from the defensive gunners, and you can more easily damage their engines or crew. Attacking from the tail, I usually fly at much higher speed somewhat below the bomber, and attack in a 45 degree or so climb so as to hit the bottom of the fuselage, trying to kill the bottom gunner. This angle also can penetrate the hull and get the top gunner or the pilot on the 111.

Of course, you need to break off as soon as you hear them firing back, because if you fly into a firing arc at that angle of climb, you are like a target hanging in the air! (much like AI 109s seem to like presenting you with) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The only other pass I consider safe against bombers is a high speed zoom from slightly left or right, firing a short burst at an engine - by high speed I mean that the last 500m are covered in a matter of seconds, too fast for the gunners react effectively. (But this is a recipe for disaster against some bombers)

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:52 AM
Interesting article. Good stuff.




"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:00 PM
did you realize that the Pe8 is easy to kill in a frontal attack? I always have that feeling. You can cut of their wing with a G2 with extra MG or take out their engines without any defencive gunfire. and they break easier from the front

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:53 PM
Gershy wrote:
- did you realize that the Pe8 is easy to kill in a
- frontal attack? I always have that feeling. You can
- cut of their wing with a G2 with extra MG or take
- out their engines without any defencive gunfire. and
- they break easier from the front
-
- 2 things we need in FB:
- The 110 and the desert!!!


That's a good compromise since you don't have the firepower and protection as a whole fleet of four engined flying fortures did.

If my memory serves me right, the JG2 invented this tactic to intercept American B17s.


__________________________________
I/JG54_Melody

I am learning french... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:58 PM
carguy_ wrote:
- I tried hadons on bombers many times.They seem not
- to have the PK system.


It happened to me many times that after a burst of shells hit a bomber, it starts to lose altitude and everyone except the pilot starts to bail out. It almost always end up in a perfect vertical dive.....with the pilot onbord, dead probably.

I guess it is the PK system.

Regards.


__________________________________
I/JG54_Melody

I am learning french... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif