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View Full Version : This is probably a dumb question, but Kamikazes?



SeaFireLIV
07-13-2004, 07:49 AM
I don`t often come here, but I was wondering, will there be the chance for a Kamikaze mission in PF?

I know it`s suicidal, but perhaps it could be used as a possible random `Glorious` ending at the tail-end of a Japan campaign.

It just seems to me that this should be included for the Japanese as a HISTORICAL reality, like I said as a possible random or - as a VOLUNTEER job!

Yes, towards the end the player`s given an OPTION to become a Kamikaze he can take it if he wishes.

Thoughts?

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Yakgirlgo.jpg
Time to Escape!

Want to see more? go here: http://seafire.dreyermachine.com/
(Fantasy sections for mature viewers only).

SeaFireLIV
07-13-2004, 07:49 AM
I don`t often come here, but I was wondering, will there be the chance for a Kamikaze mission in PF?

I know it`s suicidal, but perhaps it could be used as a possible random `Glorious` ending at the tail-end of a Japan campaign.

It just seems to me that this should be included for the Japanese as a HISTORICAL reality, like I said as a possible random or - as a VOLUNTEER job!

Yes, towards the end the player`s given an OPTION to become a Kamikaze he can take it if he wishes.

Thoughts?

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Yakgirlgo.jpg
Time to Escape!

Want to see more? go here: http://seafire.dreyermachine.com/
(Fantasy sections for mature viewers only).

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-13-2004, 07:57 AM
dont worry mate..

they are arleady plenty of Kamikaze's fooling around in HL.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

------------------------------
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Warlordimi
07-13-2004, 08:13 AM
I just love reading some guys whinning for a "kamikaze campaign"!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif The biggest campaigne ever made for a sim, thousands of planes, hundreds of ships, 10000 flak... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif and only one mission!!!http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

JG53Frankyboy
07-13-2004, 08:15 AM
the proplem is so far that "Kamikaze" attacks doesnt hurt the ships.
well, i thing the Ship modell will be overworked in PF, actually it have to !

and i can remember luthier is thinking about japanese AI that make randomly Kamaikaze attacks. we will see.

BUT, to say it twice, ship DM have to be tweaked a lot !

Warlordimi
07-13-2004, 08:36 AM
Couldn't agree more. And moreover, tweaking the torpedoes is one of the most important things to do. When you see a transport taking 2 torpedoes and still floating... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

DuxCorvan
07-13-2004, 08:46 AM
Well, maybe flying a kamikaze campaign is not too appealing, but, what about kamikaze AI? Kamikaze planes were escorted by fighters, and could be intercepted by enemy. It's not too different from escort/intercept bombers, but this time the prey is the bomb itself... and, unlike Mistel, it can try evading manoeuvers! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I think it's fun.

And flying an Ohka, if brief, must be a shock too, leaving a Betty as the I-16 in a SPB, lighting on the rockets, and flying against a hell of fighters and AA fire, striving for a sudden death on the deck of a carrier... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif and flying the Ohka-carrying Betty must be interesting so... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

Atomic_Marten
07-13-2004, 08:51 AM
Just gimme one 'Tsurugi' and I get 'em all.... alone http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

DuxCorvan
07-13-2004, 09:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
Just gimme one 'Tsurugi' and I get 'em all.... alone<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just if you manage to take off... I've read those cheap Tsurugis were as airworthy as a Harley with a boxkit attached... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Warlordimi
07-13-2004, 09:09 AM
I agree for the thrill! For a single mission, or even for a coop, IA or not, but a "campaign", which means that a lot of missions have to be fulfilled...

Gbucket
07-13-2004, 09:35 AM
Yes, there will be kamikaze missions.

SeaFireLIV
07-13-2004, 10:17 AM
Tnx, UbiRazz !http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I also like Dux Corvan`s idea of escorting AI Kamikazes. Good idea indeed.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Yakgirlgo.jpg
Time to Escape!

Want to see more? go here: http://seafire.dreyermachine.com/
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Capt._Tenneal
07-13-2004, 01:23 PM
I can't wait to see your first PF-themed art, SeaFire ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I wonder, how many of us will down a shot of sake in front of their PC before beginning the Kamikaze plunge in the game ?

p1ngu666
07-13-2004, 02:23 PM
i have suggested a piece for seafire todo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

a neater version with a zero of this
btw this is one i paid for, and have edited http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/moonrakerjap.jpg

http://premium.uploadit.org/pingu666/moonraker.jpg

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Atomic_Marten
07-13-2004, 02:34 PM
You evil Spaniard... you dare to question my insanity?!?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif
I cannot wait to load it fully with nasty eggs and - I can do it without wheels -. BTW I mustn't forget my jacket with "Shoot at ME!" logo on it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/smileys-gun2.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

Seriously those Kamikaze missions could be a lot of fun... great news UbiRazz.

Ak9779
07-13-2004, 03:52 PM
I think a kamikaze coop mission could be a lot of fun.

One team's mission is to k-strike the other team's carriers, and the other had to intercept them before they do. Remeber, for a carrier pilot, your ship isn't just your landing strip, it's also your HOME(!)

The one thing is that IIRC IRL, most Kamikaze pilots have very very little flight experience/training, which would make them easier to shoot down (plus they're heavy with explosives) but Online they would fly like seasoned veterans... Unless the attacking team's job was to escort AI kamikazes... Hmm.

Anyway, It'll be fun.

later,
Ak

----------------
MACHINE GUN : JAMMED
FUEL TANK: LEAK
ENGINE: ON FIRE
PILOT: WOUNDED
...Yeah, it's gonna be one of those days...

DuxCorvan
07-13-2004, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
You evil Spaniard...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's redundant. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

Just watch Errol Flynn's pirate movies and you'll see what I'm talking about... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Even worst than English in Mel Gibson's ones. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Atomic_Marten
07-13-2004, 04:45 PM
(Entirely) OT: I pick up this nice term from old game named "Pirates!" by Sid Meier. BTW I love pirate movies and everything related to insane plunder & other fency (sorry, I mean fancy) events that middle age (especially from Crusaders 'till Napoleonic) bestowed us .

As I post this I watch another episode of "The new Statesman" on TV. Hilarious.

Latico
07-13-2004, 04:59 PM
I'm afraid that some are excpecting a Kamakazi attack to be some sort of instant destruction of a war ship. Historically this was not the case. In cases where ships were lost to Kamakazi hits, there was a chain reaction after the crash and spreading fires that usually destroyed the ships, normally not sinking them, but making it necessary to scuttle them. We have already been informed that "chain reation" damage will not be an added feature.

Most of the hits by Kamakazi only crippled the ships at best, causing them to have to retire from action to be repaired. In a few instances the ships sustained minor damage and were able to remain on station.

Allied pilots really had no way to destinguish between regular enemy planes and Kamakazi. I think for the most part no one knew which one was going to be a Kamakazi until you saw it NOT pull up from an attack. And it was the AA gunners that had to deal with those in the end.

Capt._Tenneal
07-13-2004, 06:28 PM
but Online they would fly like seasoned veterans... &lt;by Ak9779&gt;

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Imagine being one of the carrier defenders, coming across a Kamikaze hell-bent on sinking your carrier. You get on his 6, then he suddenly does barrel rolls, Immelmans, Split-S, and all kinds of fancy sh*t trying to shake you off.

heywooood
07-13-2004, 08:52 PM
this is what I am talking about exactly.. the kamikaze as TACTICAL weapon... not a desperate last ditch throw away deal. Seasoned virtual pilots - not rookies...



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

BaldieJr
07-13-2004, 09:37 PM
I loved one line in the history channel special on kamikazes:

Their ranks were made up of elite kamikaze pilots....

Haunted planes? Night of the Living Dead Pilots? How exactly does that work?



http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~koidahl/v1/blog_pics/cherry.jpg

Tooz_69GIAP
07-13-2004, 09:47 PM
I reckon the modelling of of the Okha would be pretty cool (basically a V-1 with a pilot). I know they never flew operationally, but it did fly, and if they don't wanna make it flyable, they can make it act like the V-1 does just now.

It was launched/released from a mother aircraft (the aircraft used in tested was the Yokosuka P1Y-1 "Ginga" medium bomber), and was piloted towards it's target at a maximum speed of 440kph.

But I do think that kamikaze capabillity is really essential for Pacific Fighters. Nearly 4,000 suicide sorties were flown, with the destrruction of, I think, nearly 60 ships, and the damaging of about 250-odd ships, and resulting in 15,000 allied KIAs. More than 1,000 sorties were flown in April '45 alone!!

If they don't make kamikaze attacks possible in PF, then really, it is removing a vitally important factor in the Pacific war!!

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
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Atomic_Marten
07-14-2004, 06:20 AM
I agree heywoood... they are much more dangerous than ordinary bombs. If for nothing else they are precise.

And other interesting stuff about US fighters that will make attempt to down these kamikazes, will be that they will must be very cautios in their attacks 'cause it will be a lot like that they attack V1 rocket. When they hit the Japanese fighter-bomber it may take US fighter down with effect of explosion.

Martyr out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

p1ngu666
07-14-2004, 09:19 AM
okha was flown in combat, and did sink/hit a ship or too.
think it faster than u state aswell

oh and some kamis where experienced and good pilots.

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F19_Olli72
07-14-2004, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
I loved one line in the history channel special on kamikazes:

_Their ranks were made up of _elite_ kamikaze pilots...._

Haunted planes? Night of the Living Dead Pilots? How exactly does that work?
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~koidahl/v1/blog_pics/cherry.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But Yasuo Kuwahara writes that initially the poorest pilots were used as Kamikazes, while the better ones were used for escort and baseprotection. Eventually they would run out of poor pilots and then it was the better pilots turn. Also Kuwahara mentions that he gained experience by flying escort:

"Despite of it all, though--the anguish, fear, horror, fleeting hopes, frustration--we escort pilots were learning something valuable, we were learning what was required to die effectively, once the convoy was sighted.

By watching the others go, I was gaining experience, and many times daily I planned and rehearsed my own death attack. Mine would at least be a successful one. I knew the best way, from having watched too many failures. I would take a lot of enemy with me!"

http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v40/Olli72/Forgotten%20Battles/screenshotart/SIG_G50.jpg (http://www.screenshotart.com)

p1ngu666
07-15-2004, 07:27 AM
very first where normal pilots..

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Tooz_69GIAP
07-20-2004, 08:58 AM
Perhaps a good option for this would be to have the aircraft that were used as Kamikaze aircraft, and have an optional loadout called Kamikaze, which is basically the aircraft with about 500kilos of explosives packed into the aircraft.

This could be good for coops for example, where the objective is to crash into a specific ship, and the objective of the Allies is to blow you outta the sky before you get to the ship.

I know a lot of different aircraft were used, but perhaps pick the most common ones like the "Betty" and may the "Zeke", and give these the Kamikaze loadout.

Just an idea.

Tooz

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
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ASH at S-MART
07-20-2004, 10:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I don`t often come here, but I was wondering, will there be the chance for a Kamikaze mission in PF?

I know it`s suicidal, but perhaps it could be used as a possible random `Glorious` ending at the tail-end of a Japan campaign.

It just seems to me that this should be included for the Japanese as a HISTORICAL reality, like I said as a possible random or - as a VOLUNTEER job!

Yes, towards the end the player`s given an OPTION to become a Kamikaze he can take it if he wishes.

Thoughts?

SeaFireLIV...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What is this facination with the Kamikaze? The only interesting thing about it is these men had such pride a devotion that they were willing to give up thier life for thier cause.. Where as in a simulation you are not giving up anything... So.. why?

Is it the *thrill* of simulating the killing of lots of people in a short amout of tmie with one device? Is there some *thrill* knowing your killing a bunch of sailors with your one airplane? I doubt it.. And dont tell me HISTORICAL REALITY! Because when other say they want to kill lots of people with one device.. Like the ABOMB people get all PC all of a sudden.. Oh no that would be in bad taste! So tell me.. Just where is the line drawn between aceptable numbers of people to kill in a simulation? Glorious ending.. LOL! Too much TV IMHO!

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Tooz_69GIAP
07-20-2004, 11:02 AM
Kamikaze attacks were used because the Japanese were losing the war, and this was a last resort type of thing.

It may have been an honourable thing to the pilots themselves, but they were still committing suicide to stop the allied advance onto their homeland.

So, yes, I do think the comment of where do we draw the line between historical accuracy, and wanton destruction is perhaps a pertinant one.

But Kamikaze attacks were a fact in the Pacific theatre, and they played a major part in a good few battles, especially psychologically.

Having missions in a campaign where the AI are the kamikaze loaded up with a whole heap of explosives in their aircraft, and you have to keep the US fighters off them so they can hit their targets, and in online coops, you could opt to take on the kamikaze role and hit yer target, be it a battleship or carrier, or whatever.

I don't think the Kamikaze was intended to really kill as many as possible, but was more to sink as many ships as possible. It was about attrition, not random obliteration of the enemy as happened with the A-bomb drops.

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Executive Officer, 69th GIAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

ASH at S-MART
07-20-2004, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
Kamikaze attacks were used because the Japanese were losing the war, and this was a last resort type of thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Is my take on it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
It may have been an honourable thing to the pilots themselves, but they were still committing suicide to stop the allied advance onto their homeland.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Is my take on it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
So, yes, I do think the comment of where do we draw the line between historical accuracy, and wanton destruction is perhaps a pertinant one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Enh.. I just find it funny how some will fly the historical flag for one aspect to be added.. Then fly the bad taste PC flag for another.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
But Kamikaze attacks were a fact in the Pacific theatre, and they played a major part in a good few battles, especially psychologically.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Is my take on it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
Having missions in a campaign where the AI are the kamikaze loaded up with a whole heap of explosives in their aircraft, and you have to keep the US fighters off them so they can hit their targets, and in online coops, you could opt to take on the kamikaze role and hit yer target, be it a battleship or carrier, or whatever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Im all for kamikaze OFFLINE missions where I would be escorting them or defending agints them.. But to fly as one? First off there is nothing stopping you from doing it! What do we need some cut-screen OK CANCEL option presented to us before we do it? Be a simulated man and JUST DO IT! As for ONLINE kamikaze.. LOL! We got them now! But I am not impressed by anyone that gives up thier simulated life in such a manor.. Funny how John Wayne everybody is when the bullets are not real!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
I don't think the Kamikaze was intended to really kill as many as possible, but was more to sink as many ships as possible. It was about attrition, not random obliteration of the enemy as happened with the A-bomb drops.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Random... LOL!

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Tooz_69GIAP
07-20-2004, 11:37 AM
eh.....so I'll take that as you more or less agree?? cept for the flyable kamikaze loadout option?

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Executive Officer, 69th GIAP
Za Rodinu!
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ASH at S-MART
07-20-2004, 11:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
eh.....so I'll take that as you more or less agree??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes I agree.. allow these brave men to pretend to be brave and slam themselves into the side of a ship.. I just don't see the need to have a special OFFLINE menu option for it.. On of the things about being brave is doing it without recognition.. Sounds like some here needs some special menu option that would indicate they intend to be brave and give up their life for the cause.. Hmmmm you know, I guess they are brave in some sense.. Depending on the price of electricity in your home town one person might be giving more than another.. So in that sense these guys are brave in that they have to pay the eclectic bill

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
cept for the flyable kamikaze loadout option?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Loadout option? Well sure let them take a shot of saki before they load up and go.. But like simulated life.. simulated booze does not have the same effect! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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arcadeace
07-20-2004, 01:51 PM
I think an offline suicide option will be a great fix for some FB egos. I'm usually going down in flames anyway hehe

Atomic_Marten
07-20-2004, 02:07 PM
I wanna to be brave... where to sign?! What to fly to be called brave? How to fly/crash/else. Just wanna know... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

BTW I was reading few articles about Japanese WW2 pilots over the years and even some actual letters from pilots that are writing home to their families and wifes (there's been one in which some Japanese pilot sadly write to his wife "that their neighbour was killed yesterday, after spending only a few days on first line"), and find nothing unusual in 'em comparing to other forces. They were also scared (of)to death IMO. Nothing fascinating there.

ASH at S-MART
07-20-2004, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
I wanna to be brave... where to sign?! What to fly to be called brave? How to fly/crash/else. Just wanna know... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>THere is a flight sim called IL-2 in which you can *pretend* to be brave... So in that sense only thing you have to do is sign the check! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
BTW I was reading few articles about Japanese WW2 pilots over the years and even some actual letters from pilots that are writing home to their families and wifes (there's been one in which some Japanese pilot sadly write to his wife "that their neighbour was killed yesterday, after spending only a few days on first line"), and find nothing unusual in 'em comparing to other forces. They were also scared (of)to death IMO. Nothing fascinating there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree.. nothing fascinating! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Baco-ECV56
07-20-2004, 02:56 PM
Well My take is that Kamikazi, makes stakes much higher for US pilots defending the fleet. Normally if therees a lot of enemy planes if you damage one plane good enough, you can leave it and go get another.. if you now kamikazis are present you must finish the Job right, so I see it as an extra chalenge.
For tha Japanese side I see it as a novelty and to test how acurate you are hiting a ship...
Right now Its kind of hard in FB, hehe, when damaged enough I tend to throw my plane on top pf the target. (the special load out would onlly mean more amage. now in FB a plane doesn´t do much dammage to a ship...)

Glorious or fascination.. No, I don´t see any, just technical chalenges http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Tooz_69GIAP
07-20-2004, 03:27 PM
well, the last time I did dive bombing of ships, I crashed into one by accident, and before I crashed into it, there 4 AAA guns firing. The next time I went to the ship after respawning, only 2 of the guns were operating. It would seem that by crashing into them I had knocked out 2 of the 20mm AAA!!

This was one of the Romanian ships I think, or maybe a russian battleship. Not sure. But it was a big one!!

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Executive Officer, 69th GIAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

Tater-SW-
07-20-2004, 10:47 PM
It would be nice for the FMB to add a new waypoint type, "kamikaze." You'd set the target like ground attack, and there you go. If the current code requires bombs to drop to explode, have the new waypoint type drop the bomb load at 10m alt or something (it'll always be sea level http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

It would certainly be useful for offline campaigns defending the fleet, or escorting the kamikazes. If you fly the mission yourself, save the track and watch from heaven &lt;G&gt;.

Obviously the damage will be understated due to the lack of a model for burning fuel, but on the other hand ship DMs tend to overstate all damage anyway (X bomb hits equals a sinking when that is no more true than Y 20mm hits anyplace will destroy an aircraft).

tater

Mitlov47
07-21-2004, 12:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASH_SMART:
Is there some *thrill* knowing your killing a bunch of sailors with your one airplane? I doubt it.. And dont tell me HISTORICAL REALITY! Because when other say they want to kill lots of people with one device.. Like the ABOMB people get all PC all of a sudden.. Oh no that would be in bad taste! So tell me.. Just where is the line drawn between aceptable numbers of people to kill in a simulation? Glorious ending.. LOL! Too much TV IMHO!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Naval vessels are full of military combatants. Hiroshima was a civilian city full of women and children. Seems straight-forward to me. It's the same distinction between "strafing a column of ammunition trucks" and "strafing a residential neighborhood." We do the former in IL-2, but not the latter. And because of the same distinction, I think kamikazes are acceptable in this game whereas A-bombs are not.

A kamikaze attack on a ship is no more morally questionable than a torpedo-bombing attack on the same vessel.

Don't think there's any challenge involved? Take a single, slow, fragile plane, choose the Islands map in QMB, set target as "airbase," and defense as "AAA." (attack the blue airbase; I'm not sure if it's easier the other way around) Now see if you can fly all the way to the airbase at low altitude and still be in control at the end of the approach--enough control to accurately bring your plane into the side of one specific hangar that you've selected.

It's not easy, is it?

Dodging flak IS a challenge. It's a very different challenge than dogfighting another human being, but dodging flak is a challenge that anyone who enjoys ground-attack missions deals with on a regular basis.

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Atomic_Marten
07-21-2004, 12:26 PM
Mitlov what, fat-boy isn't available in PF? Well I definitely got some things to catch up(must see some previos locked adam threads http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif).

Tater-SW-
07-21-2004, 01:03 PM
miltov, a few points:

1. Hiroshima was also a military center for the region.

2. By Imperial edict, the only "noncombatant" women and children were those women under 17, and over 47, and men under 15, and over 65. Everyone else was, technically speaking, a combatant.

3. Bombing in WW2 was globally brutal, and imprecise. A good day for the relatively speaking precise USAAF meant 80% of the bombs landing within a few miles of the aim point. At best strategic bombing of military targets was inaccurate, and wishful thinking in terms of avoiding civilian deaths. Area bombing simply accepted reality (and killed more people than A bombs).

4. If realistic B-29 missions are modelled at all, it means area bombing that destroys huge %s of entire cities with great loss of life, no way around it.

5. The alternative to the bombing of Japan was an invasion of Japan. Such an invasion would likely have resulted in more japanese deaths, and certainly more US deaths (the only deaths that would matter to me if I were making the call for the US).

I think it is true that people make artificial distinctions between conventional, and atomic weapons that don't deserve to be made (as if it was any worse to be burned to death in a firestorm caused by fission vs napalm). Later, with ICBMs, etc., the threat of nuclear weapons was (is) a qualitative change in threat level, but in 1945 in the numbers available there were only a quantitative change (worth a few hundred conventional bomb loads).

tater

ASH at S-MART
07-21-2004, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
Naval vessels are full of military combatants. Hiroshima was a civilian city full of women and children. Seems straight-forward to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Too you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
It's the same distinction between "strafing a column of ammunition trucks" and "strafing a residential neighborhood." We do the former in IL-2, but not the latter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well the days of fighting wars where we ride out on our horse to do battle with the other tribe on a hill top and then ride home at the end of the day has not existed for some time! Granted, most country don't target civilians.. but when the factory that is building the war products sits next to a church.. Well what you going to do? I say bomb it and hope you don hit the church.. I know that must seem crass in the self righteous perfect world where people can solve all their problems by simply talking about it.. But that *is* and *has* been the world we *live* and *die* in for a very long time now

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
And because of the same distinction, I think kamikazes are acceptable in this game whereas A-bombs are not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Good for you.. but I don't agree.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
A kamikaze attack on a ship is no more morally questionable than a torpedo-bombing attack on the same vessel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree, nor is it any worse then sinking a cargo ship with merchant sailors carrying food to the military in the pacific.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
Don't think there's any challenge involved? Take a single, slow, fragile plane, choose the Islands map in QMB, set target as "airbase," and defense as "AAA." (attack the blue airbase; I'm not sure if it's easier the other way around) Now see if you can fly all the way to the airbase at low altitude and still be in control at the end of the approach--enough control to accurately bring your plane into the side of one specific hangar that you've selected.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh there is a challenge.. Just not much SKILL or SACRIFICE.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
It's not easy, is it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe.. but it sure is a lot easier to die in the sim then in real life

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
Dodging flak IS a challenge. It's a very different challenge than dogfighting another human being, but dodging flak is a challenge that anyone who enjoys ground-attack missions deals with on a regular basis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree.. a challenge.. just not much SKILL or SACRIFICE involved

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p1ngu666
07-21-2004, 03:09 PM
naw theres skill and luck involved

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ASH at S-MART
07-21-2004, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
naw theres skill and luck involved
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Skill? Emmm in light of the fact that alot of the kamikazes where guys with very little flight time (ie kids) I find it hard to belive.. But.. what the H.. Ill give you and yours the skill thing! So to re phrase it.. Challenge? yes... Skill? Emmm Ok.. Sacrifice? No, none at all in the sim.. Luck? Bet!

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p1ngu666
07-21-2004, 03:33 PM
well, u gotta avoid interception, in a massively infirour plane for the most part,
after finding the fleet, u haveto get thru aa, then avoid your unconicious efforts to dive to save yourself, and u gotta hit a dodging ship, which is firing away with every damn gun its got.

oh and your in a flying gas can, with no guns and everything that can be removed is.

oh and u are likely tobe tracked by radar. no challenge at all then.

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ASH at S-MART
07-21-2004, 03:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
well, u gotta avoid interception, in a massively infirour plane for the most part,
after finding the fleet, u haveto get thru aa, then avoid your unconicious efforts to dive to save yourself, and u gotta hit a dodging ship, which is firing away with every damn gun its got.

oh and your in a flying gas can, with no guns and everything that can be removed is.

oh and u are likely tobe tracked by radar. no challenge at all then.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, I allready conceeded the challenge of it all... In real life and sim life.. My main point here is that none of that means much to me.. even the challenge aspect when you consider the fact that in the sim all you have to do is hit REPLAY.. So agin.. WITH REGARDS TO THE SIM.. Challenge? Sure.. Skill? A little.. Luck? Sure.. Sacrifice? NONE! and the later is the only thing about the real Kamikaze that is intersting.. To simulate all that withou sacrifice.. Well it just aint simulating it well thus not worth simulating IMHO.

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Mitlov47
07-21-2004, 11:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASH_SMART:
No, I allready conceeded the challenge of it all... In real life and sim life.. My main point here is that none of that means much to me.. even the challenge aspect when you consider the fact that in the sim all you have to do is hit REPLAY.. So agin.. WITH REGARDS TO THE SIM.. Challenge? Sure.. Skill? A little.. Luck? Sure.. Sacrifice? _NONE!_ and the later is the only thing about the real Kamikaze that is intersting.. To simulate all that withou sacrifice.. Well it just aint simulating it well thus not worth simulating IMHO.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't you say the same thing about ANY simulated warfare? What's the point of handing out medals in-game if we didn't really put our lives on the line and go above and beyond the call of duty? Why feel any relief at making it back to base if, in the end, IT DOESN'T MATTER whether you make it back to base or not?

You're really worrying too hard about this. If you analyze ANY bit of this game/sim as much as you're doing, you'll eventually conclude that it's ALL just a bunch of computer processes, there's no risk, there's no deeper meaning, there's no reason to worry about whether the in-game war is won or lost, et cetera.

We suspend disbelief in order to cheer and say "yeah, I made it back!" We suspend disbelief when we feel proud of the fact that we downed five airplanes in a giant dogfight. We suspend disbelief when we're taxiing down the runway, sweating because we see a BF-110 coming right at us. Why is suspending disbelief for kamikazes different than suspending disbelief for any other part of the game?

A different way to look at it:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>WITH REGARDS TO THE SIM.. Challenge? Sure.. Skill? A little.. Luck? Sure.. Sacrifice? NONE! and the later is the only thing about the real Kamikaze that is intersting.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Change the word "kamikaze" to "war." It still makes exactly the same point, huh? Think up an answer to the question regarding war. That answer will hold true to the kamikaze question as well.

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ASH at S-MART
07-22-2004, 12:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
Can't you say the same thing about ANY simulated warfare? What's the point of handing out medals in-game if we didn't really put our lives on the line and go above and beyond the call of duty? Why feel any relief at making it back to base if, in the end, IT DOESN'T MATTER whether you make it back to base or not?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well in a nut shell.. I play flight sims not becuase I think Im putting my life in any danger.. I play them because I like the aircraft.. the tatics used and the skill required to apply them.. Which is what pilots needed to stay alive.. The Kamikaze didnt require skill or tatics.. Most of them were guys with very little flight time.. The only impressive thing about the Kamikase was his sacrifice.

With that said.. These flight sims do pretty good job of simulating the need for skill and tatics.. but a very bad job of simulating sacrifice.. Which is why I dont get it when someone says they want to fly as a Kamikaze carrier? But that's me.. and like I said I play them to learn about the tatics and skills require.. Which in turn I am impressed by what the real pilots did.. Which is not to say I am not impressed by what the real Kamikaze did.. Just that you can not simulate what he did.. ie sacrifice!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
You're really worrying too hard about this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Worried? No, not at all! Just trying to understand why someone would want to fly a simulated Kamikaze carrier.. One mission and it is over! WOW! FUN! And what did we learn?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
If you analyze ANY bit of this game/sim as much as you're doing, you'll eventually conclude that it's ALL just a bunch of computer processes, there's no risk, there's no deeper meaning, there's no reason to worry about whether the in-game war is won or lost, et cetera.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
We suspend disbelief in order to cheer and say "yeah, I made it back!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Which by the way is something you dont do in a Kamikaze carrier! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
We suspend disbelief when we feel proud of the fact that we downed five airplanes in a giant dogfight. We suspend disbelief when we're taxiing down the runway, sweating because we see a BF-110 coming right at us. Why is suspending disbelief for kamikazes different than suspending disbelief for any other part of the game?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well no amount of suspending belief will ever make me feel as if I might die.. I do enjoy the tatics and skill and besting someone in a df by applying them... But I never once belive for a moment that I am anwhere near donig what a real pilot would do in a real war.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitlov47:
A different way to look at it:
Change the word "kamikaze" to "war." It still makes exactly the same point, huh?
Think up an answer to the question regarding war. That answer will hold true to the kamikaze question as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I dissagree.

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