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View Full Version : where were the franks and georges?!



aminx
08-16-2004, 06:16 PM
its 2 a.m. here in Europe right now and i just finnished watcing a long documentary on the pacific campaign on italian tv rai2 channel.i saw all the planes in action specially the hellcats beating the hell out of zeros after 1943.what comes to your mind is that all the way up to leighty gulf almost all off the big shoot outs where against the zero.thats all i saw all night long one zero after another catching fire ,where are the ki61's franks and georges which where supposed to stand up to the corsair and hellcat?
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

aminx
08-16-2004, 06:16 PM
its 2 a.m. here in Europe right now and i just finnished watcing a long documentary on the pacific campaign on italian tv rai2 channel.i saw all the planes in action specially the hellcats beating the hell out of zeros after 1943.what comes to your mind is that all the way up to leighty gulf almost all off the big shoot outs where against the zero.thats all i saw all night long one zero after another catching fire ,where are the ki61's franks and georges which where supposed to stand up to the corsair and hellcat?
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

Aztek_Eagle
08-16-2004, 06:21 PM
On their six

Tater-SW-
08-16-2004, 06:44 PM
Burning on the ground with the majority of Japan's air forces, more likely.

tater

Tooz_69GIAP
08-16-2004, 06:49 PM
Was the documentary about hte pacific campaign, or about the american war??

If the documentary was focussing on what the US did in the Pacific, then they wouldn't really care what aircraft are in the guncam footage, so long as they were getting shot down by the USA-ians aircraft.

If the documentary was about the Japanese, then I am sure they would have tried to include more of the Japanese aircraft.

Also, perhaps something to consider is that the lack of guncam footage with aircraft other than zeros is because not many of them were shot down?? Could it be that the japanese aircraft other than the zero were rarely in front of an american aircraft long enough to be shot down??? The mind boggles!!

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

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RCJ99
08-16-2004, 07:06 PM
The zero and the hayabusa were the most common japanese fighters of the war. Those are the planes you are going to see the most. Most of the exotic japanese fighters were either built in small numbers or were not widely seen until 1945.

Snootles
08-16-2004, 07:26 PM
A lot of the later Japanese fighters' production runs were impeded by Air Force bombing runs on critical factories. That and there was a huge earthquake near the end of the war that screwed up a lot of stuff.

[This message was edited by Snootles on Mon August 16 2004 at 06:36 PM.]

goshikisen
08-16-2004, 09:33 PM
I know that Hiens were used in New Guinea and some Hayates were based in the Philipines but by the time most of these aircraft came on in strength the IJAAF was adjusting its focus to home defense. IJN Units... don't know too much about them but I think the Shiden Kai was in the same boat, saw a fair amount of action over Japan but not much elsewhere.

MiamiEagle
08-16-2004, 11:13 PM
Do not beleive every documentary you see. The war in the Pacific was not as onesided as one is led to beleive. Sure our Pilots did learn how to fight the Zore!s and the Hellcat was the better plane. But the fight for control of the air in the Pacific was hard and bloody and many Ally Pilots lost their lives in it. This is the kind of documentary that demean the sacrifice of our Pilots and make it look like it was easy to beat the enemy. This has bother me for years.I found out the other day that Ki61 had cameras in their gun sight. Yet I have not ever seen a film clip from their guns . Did you guys know that the Goverment destroy thousand of films of the Japanese Forces from the war after the war. They where afraid that it would inspire them to rebuid their forces after the war. As why you did not see the Ki84 or Ki61 in the documentary is that most of this plane where not use in the Central Pacific where most of the Battles you saw were film.The George was mostly use late in the war.I hope you use more research in studying this facinating Theater of war and not just one documentary. Our ally Pilots deserve more credit than they of gotten thru the years.Thank you Miamieagle

warweapon2
08-17-2004, 12:40 AM
If any of you have ever read Baa Baa Blacksheep, I believe Pappy Boyington was shot down by a Hien.. At least from what I remember, because it mentioned something about the Ki-61 being able to out-dive the plane he was flying.

WUAF_Badsight
08-17-2004, 03:32 AM
the Hayate was the most produced late war fighter for the japanese

& only abour 3 & a half thousand of them in their various models were made wasnt it ?

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JG53Frankyboy
08-17-2004, 05:38 AM
N1K1/2 George ~1400 planes
Ki-45 Nick ~1700 planes
Ki-61 Tony ~3000 planes
Ki-100 ~380 planes
A6M Zeke ~11000 planes
J2M Jack ~480 planes
Ki-27 Nate ~3500 planes
Ki-43 Oscar ~6000 planes
Ki-44 Tojo ~1200 planes
Ki84 Frank ~3500 planes

Tater-SW-
08-17-2004, 08:07 AM
While the war raged on after 1943, Japan's ability to fight a well-coordinated, agressive air war was seriously reduced. Coming across good pilots got more and more rare. Certainly a history channel show isn't the place to get good data, they are frequently riddled with errors, but Japan's use of air power was not good overall after, well, very early stages of the war.

Their naval aviators in particular since the navy traing program sought excellent pilots at the expense of having good pilots. 1500 applicants for flight school, 75 accepted, 25 graduate. 25 excellent pilots. The USN would have accepted 1000 of the 1500, washed out 500, and graduated 500. 475 good pilots, plus the same 25 excellent pilots into the bargain.

The enemy of "good" is "perfect."

tater

LEXX_Luthor
08-17-2004, 10:32 AM
MiamiEagle:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I found out the other day that Ki61 had cameras in their gun sight. Yet I have not ever seen a film clip from their guns . Did you guys know that the Goverment destroy thousand of films of the Japanese Forces from the war after the war.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, we didn't know that. We do know we don't see Japanese gun cam footage on teh USA Dogfighter Channel. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

...and why didn't we know that? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Loki-PF
08-17-2004, 10:38 AM
Tater-SW-

Great point! Most "systems" can be broken down into three main ingredients;

1) people
2) process
3) technology (aircraft, radar, gunsights etc.)

This and other threads have pointed to the USA's pilot training and rotation schemes as key ingredients to our success in the airwar on both fronts. I agree with this.

What I find also fascinating is something unique to the PTO the Allies called "Cross Decking", and in my opinion this was a critical factor early in the war when both sides were suffering carriers lost or damaged suffeciently such that they needed to be limped back to repair/refit as well as significant aircrew casualties.

Zeke52c
08-17-2004, 11:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goshikisen:
I know that Hiens were used in New Guinea and some Hayates were based in the Philipines but by the time most of these aircraft came on in strength the IJAAF was adjusting its focus to home defense. IJN Units... don't know too much about them but I think the Shiden Kai was in the same boat, saw a fair amount of action over Japan but not much elsewhere.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Shiden-kai (George) was used only over Japan and Okinawa, however the earlier Shiden was used by one Air Group in the Philippines campaign 44-45.

Zeke52c
08-17-2004, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by goshikisen:
I know that Hiens were used in New Guinea and some Hayates were based in the Philipines but by the time most of these aircraft came on in strength the IJAAF was adjusting its focus to home defense. IJN Units... don't know too much about them but I think the Shiden Kai was in the same boat, saw a fair amount of action over Japan but not much elsewhere.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hiens (Tonys) were widely used in the 1944 Philippines campaign, and also the Okinawa campaign. Obviously the homeland defence also. Although the JAAF was heavily involved in CBI, for some reason it did not operate Hiens there. However Shoki's (Tojos) and Hayates (Franks) saw service in this theatre. Toryus (Nicks) were used wherever the JAAF fought. But Hayabusa (Oscar) was everywhere. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

sugaki
08-17-2004, 11:20 AM
Documentaries are usually poorly researched and its images not representative of the realities that transpired.

Although a fair amount of Ki-84s and Ki-61s were produced, they both had notoriously unreliable engines. Japanese didn't really make good liquid-cooled engines, hence the birth of the Ki-100 in 1945--they had too many Hiens sitting around with no engines. The Ha-45 Homare engines in the Ki-84 Hayate broke down frequently, and hence army pilots liked the Ki-100 more for the reliability of its Kasei Ha-112 engine. Nothing worse than an engine shutting down on you in the heat of the battle.

-Aki

cow9th
08-17-2004, 06:01 PM
history is writen by the victors so to speak.
this applies doubly with all documentrys i beleive.

i can show you photos of "evil Nazis" walking down the street in a fully revived germany being hailed as heros.

tv will show dead jews http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

i can show you pictures of a japanes man with a wife and child saying his last goodbyes before taking of on a mission from wich he wont return.

tv will show death camps and burning Zeros.

i can show you video of a pilot returning after a combat mission only to land badly and die aboard his carrier in a fire.

tv will show the other pilot celebrating his kills.

stick to books, avoid TV as its a jokehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif political propoganda pervades almost everyting on our screens today.

books are vastly more entertaining and will educate you in your chosen field of research to a far greater degree. (ok there are stupid books too but tv is 100% nonsense.)

the internet is a good place to do some research aswell as its the last form of free speach left, ppl of many nations and backgrounds with many opposing views can air theyre opinions on the web giving you a wealth of information to examine, tv will show the winners, and maybe let a loser or two talk about how good the winners were.

in recent footage of the d,day memorials they devoted all of 2 seconds to a german soldier a survivor of those days in full uniform breaking down on the beach as he recalled all those he killed, friends he lost.
i never heard his story you never do. hes the bad guy plain and simple (this is the TV view not mine)

of course you must mention the 6 "million" as often as possible its not allowed to mention war on tv without whining about that ! that had to be whined about for hours. but can you hear the story of and old german veteran? hell no!

what about the russian 25-35 million, the half a million brits? 350.000 in Dresden? no mention of them, of course.

tv is a terrible thing its all about propoganda.
so many things happened that well never know about because it doesnt serve the greater purpose http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif when was the last time you heard of allied pilots from Australia who flew theyre bombers into the ocean to kill themselves? or the many brits who became suicidal in india in the heat of the weather.

its all we won you lost were heros you suck.

i like history but i assure you you will learn more here or in your library then on TV. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

that turned into a rant it wasnt meant to be sorry http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i just meant that you will have more fun learning history from your fellow aviation fans then by listening to nonsense on tv.
i hope i didnt talk total nonsense.

its just reminiscant of all those storys of evil Japenese (of wich there were plenty) shooting ppl or using chinese as bayenet practice.

however the story of the japenese pilot who let a wounded enemy plane fly home rather than kill the men women and children onboard, is only read about on the net or maybe in a unheard of book.

LEXX_Luthor
08-17-2004, 06:24 PM
Awsum rant http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://www.lexxfans.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/098.gif


For Television Learning and Education, I watch Canadian productions like http://www.lexx.ufo.ru/members.shtml or NZ television (Cleopatra 2525).

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif NZ is "down under" too, you know, but only if you read books. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

aminx
08-18-2004, 03:06 AM
ATT-COW9th

ref your comments

thats why i watch CNN then switch immediately to BBC frequently during the day,or skip an hour and watch the next channel.i then go to the french channel(france) and back to the swiss(italian).i live in switzerland.
three times a weeck i go to my local caffé and read at least 3 daily's from top to bottom.reason,i was born in the middle east,lebanon and saw my country go up in flames due to interference from everywhere.i was lucky because my parents had moved to switzerland 5 years before the civil war really got going.sometimes i try to imagine what would have happened to me had i not had that oportunity.the mayor of the area we used to live in met me years later and told me how trucks of militias would turn up at night forcing you to volunteer a son to go fight (1975-1978)no salary or pension scheme there.
the last book i finnished on the pacific war last month was FIRE IN THE SKY.a good easy to read book.i am now awaitting from the US next weeck BATTLE of MIDWAY with a war gamer section which will help set up your own realistic missions.Books written by serious unbiased authors is the proper way to explain events
and avoid distorting history for future generations with all its benefits.
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

Loki-PF
08-18-2004, 08:40 AM
Aminx,

Greetings! If I may humbly suggest a book on Midway? I've read quite a few, and this one was unique in it's detail and depth. The book is called "The First Team" by John B Lundstrom.

The thing that was different about this book (for me) was that for the first time I understood just how close a thing the battle really was. It all came down to a fluke, or chance of fate as it were. Anyway, it's a good read if somewhat detailed and long. But you may dig that!

Salute!
Loki

aminx
08-18-2004, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Loki-PF:
Aminx,

Greetings! If I may humbly suggest a book on Midway? I've read quite a few, and this one was unique in it's detail and depth. The book is called "The First Team" by John B Lundstrom.

The thing that was different about this book (for me) was that for the first time I understood just how close a thing the battle really was. It all came down to a fluke, or chance of fate as it were. Anyway, it's a good read if somewhat detailed and long. But you may dig that!

Salute!
Loki<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
MIDWAY
thanks advice,skychimp also mentioned same yesterday,i will go down town and order it tomorrow.i am also going to build the DAUNTLESS SBD5(midway) and CORSAIR next month and in the meantime i am really getting into the colour schemes and markings, carrier decks,of the era to avoid making a mess .
as i mentioned somewhere earlier i like building my own missions(i dont know how to build campaigns)so i want to build my own sequences once PF is out even though they will have their own,i did enjoy the CFS2 MIDWAY PROJECT last year.
cheers
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

Fliger747
08-18-2004, 02:10 PM
Here's the end of one "George". This is the NEW F4U-1 just put out as donation ware for CFS2 and FS9 by the Sim Outhouse. A sweet flying baby which I think handles about like a Corsair should. Well worth the small donation!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/fliger747/SplashoneGeorge.jpg

aminx
08-18-2004, 11:15 PM
GEORGE down in flames

in january of this year i did the same thing to my copy of CFS2.
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg