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View Full Version : They need to make dodge cost stam or be unable to dodge once your out of stam



NSAbox
03-07-2017, 09:01 PM
I main a law bringer and find it almost impossible to solo any assassin class. The issue is if i parry an attack they can back dash before you can get the hit off. flip them over your back and they can get up before the heavy can hit. Run them out of stam..... too bad you will never catch them to punish them for their mistake.

Why don't moves like dodge cost stam? it seems like until they do this the larger slower classes will never be able to catch a lighter class that can simply run away the second you parry an attack or successfully run them out of stam. Is anyone else playing one of the slower classes running into this same issue and would you be opposed to their being a limit on dodging while out of stam. I guess I'm just failing to see the downside that the faster classes have. Resource management doesn't seem to mean much in this game if you can escape so easily even when you make the mistake of running out of stam

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
03-07-2017, 09:18 PM
I main a law bringer and find it almost impossible to solo any assassin class. The issue is if i parry an attack they can back dash before you can get the hit off. flip them over your back and they can get up before the heavy can hit. Run them out of stam..... too bad you will never catch them to punish them for their mistake.

Why don't moves like dodge cost stam? it seems like until they do this the larger slower classes will never be able to catch a lighter class that can simply run away the second you parry an attack or successfully run them out of stam. Is anyone else playing one of the slower classes running into this same issue and would you be opposed to their being a limit on dodging while out of stam. I guess I'm just failing to see the downside that the faster classes have. Resource management doesn't seem to mean much in this game if you can escape so easily even when you make the mistake of running out of stam

Hate to say this, and to be this guy, but if you're having a problem against zerker and orochi as a lawbringer, that's a git gud problem. almost every Orochi and Zerker plays the same, predictable moveset

pure_energist
03-07-2017, 09:24 PM
Yes Absolutely! To anyone that thinks it would be too punishable then git gud at blocking. Running out of stamina by either spamming attacks are getting hit by a heavies attack that damages stamina is in my opinion the games design to balance assassins with the heavies. It should create an opportunity for the heavy to close the distance and make attack attempts that are not easily dodged but must be blocked. With the guard break reverted back to beta then that cannot be easily exploited anymore with someone out of stamina. The player should be forced to encounter and block all incoming attacks until their stamina is recharged. Not only should it cost stamina but the dodge should be slowed as well with a reset similar to when attempting to throw attacks in stamina debt. This stamina feature is pointless if it does not allow forced encounters. IF there is not punishment for stamina debt then the High level gear system "balancing" is even more broke as who cares about stamina drain attribute as an Assassin? Give me that gold full attack and defense gear Please; I'll just slip away every time I'm out of stam....pfft.

CarnivalLaw
03-07-2017, 09:25 PM
Agreed.

NSAbox
03-07-2017, 09:26 PM
Hate to say this, and to be this guy, but if you're having a problem against zerker and orochi as a lawbringer, that's a git gud problem. almost every Orochi and Zerker plays the same, predictable moveset

Its not the moves thats an issue its the inability to punish their mistakes. The issue is if i parry you into an unblock able overhead you still have time to dodge back. If i block and parry you till you are out of sram you still have the ability to infinite back up out of my grab reach. if i beak targeting to charge you to close distance you can still side step it even when out of stam. As a class thats supposed to be a counter attack they have made it almost impossible to land anything other then light counter attacks which makes the whole idea of being a designated counter attacker somewhat silly. You also never answered why dodging doesnt cost sram or have come kind of limit once you are out of stam. Basically when i win fights in duel is when the other person is there to actually fight and not infinitely back away after dumping light attacks.

NSAbox
03-07-2017, 09:30 PM
Yes Absolutely! To anyone that thinks it would be too punishable then git gud at blocking. Running out of stamina by either spamming attacks are getting hit by a heavies attack that damages stamina is in my opinion the games design to balance assassins with the heavies. It should create an opportunity for the heavy to close the distance and make attack attempts that are not easily dodged but must be blocked. With the guard break reverted back to beta then that cannot be easily exploited anymore with someone out of stamina. The player should be forced to encounter and block all incoming attacks until their stamina is recharged. Not only should it cost stamina but the dodge should be slowed as well with a reset similar to when attempting to throw attacks in stamina debt. This stamina feature is pointless if it does not allow forced encounters. IF there is not punishment for stamina debt then the High level gear system "balancing" is even more broke as who cares about stamina drain attribute as an Assassin? Give me that gold full attack and defense gear Please; I'll just slip away every time I'm out of stam....pfft.

This is exactly what i was talking about. Whenever i bring it up you get hit with the "get gud" reply. I think it takes a considerable amount of skill to manage resources as well as have quick reaction speed. Dumping all your attacks then constantly dodging away is the essence of a lack of skill IMO.

secrecy274
03-07-2017, 09:33 PM
I agree.
Why you can't sprint, but still dodge almost as fast repeatedly seems like a weird game mechanic to me.

L647
03-07-2017, 09:38 PM
U do know that if someone is spamming dodge its a free GB right...? like its FREE as in its FREE just need to get good imo.

Munktor
03-07-2017, 09:47 PM
U do know that if someone is spamming dodge its a free GB right...? like its FREE as in its FREE just need to get good imo.

Not if the opponent dodges backwards post blocking a Lawbringer's attack or being parried.

It has something to do with the recovery from attacks of the Lawbringer. He is literally too fast to land a GB (even after a successful parry or block) if the assassin dodges backwards immediately.

I've tested this multiple times with a friend during custom matches. They pick assassin, I play lawbringer and they just dodge backwards while i try and land various attacks.

Y'know the only one that works? The running charge.

With all that said, I don't agree with the OP that dodging shouldn't be possible while out of stam. It'd ruin a lot more in the game than it would fix. But I am damn near certain that an assassin that tims their backdodge properly can always negate punishment from the Lawbringer, making it a poor matchup in general.

What I do advise the OP is to running charge spam assassins. Most of them don't even know how to block it =)

NSAbox
03-07-2017, 09:56 PM
Not if the opponent dodges backwards post blocking a Lawbringer's attack or being parried.

It has something to do with the recovery from attacks of the Lawbringer. He is literally too fast to land a GB (even after a successful parry or block) if the assassin dodges backwards immediately.

I've tested this multiple times with a friend during custom matches. They pick assassin, I play lawbringer and they just dodge backwards while i try and land various attacks.

Y'know the only one that works? The running charge.

With all that said, I don't agree with the OP that dodging shouldn't be possible while out of stam. It'd ruin a lot more in the game than it would fix. But I am damn near certain that an assassin that tims their backdodge properly can always negate punishment from the Lawbringer, making it a poor matchup in general.

What I do advise the OP is to running charge spam assassins. Most of them don't even know how to block it =)

On point again its the back doge I'm talking about not the side to side. My issue with the charge is that most people seem to know how to block it and when they do it drains almost all my stam. plus its not very fun.

pure_energist
03-07-2017, 09:59 PM
U do know that if someone is spamming dodge its a free GB right...? like its FREE as in its FREE just need to get good imo.

U do know GB is only achievable in CQC Right??... slip back..stay back..stay safe... Punishing those slipping left and right isn't the issue,, as they are at least staying within range.. its those who make the easy back escape that this mechanic is pointless with. Now If we only had a scorpion spear feat, .. GET OVER HERE!!!

Kharneth88
03-07-2017, 10:12 PM
U do know GB is only achievable in CQC Right??... slip back..stay back..stay safe... Punishing those slipping left and right isn't the issue,, as they are at least staying within range.. its those who make the easy back escape that this mechanic is pointless with. Now If we only had a scorpion spear feat, .. GET OVER HERE!!!

To quote the commander in chief, "WRONG!"

Guard breaking will track a backwards dodge and chase you down as you dodge backwards. You just need to be quicker. Trust me, I'm a PK main. I know how to counter dodging. Now, dodge rolling is another story. You can't really counter a backwards dodge roll unless you have a forward lunge attack or a forward dash attack.

scrubbyjimbob
03-07-2017, 10:15 PM
Just like they can dodge back, you're able to dodge forward. You don't have to untarget and actually run. Assassin classes don't get to hold blocks like everyone else so they got better dodging skills to compensate. Do you get charged stamina to block or get decreased blocking ability when gassed? Hell I'll dodge out with any class when I need to open space, not just on my assassin. Honestly instead of waiting for them to run out of stamina to beat them up you need to focus on knocking them out of their rhythm. Different classes require different strategies and instead of modding other classes to fit your playstyle I'd suggest adjusting your own. Try playing one of these classes that gives you a hard time. Maybe you'll pick up on some of their stuff a bit better or if nothing else you'll see how others counter what they throw at you. That's how I got into playing my zerker.

" Now, dodge rolling is another story. You can't really counter a backwards dodge roll unless you have a forward lunge attack or a forward dash attack."

The dodge roll is a out of target dodge though, which can be countered by doing the same-though it can be a bit risky.

Kharneth88
03-07-2017, 10:25 PM
Just like they can dodge back, you're able to dodge forward. You don't have to untarget and actually run. Assassin classes don't get to hold blocks like everyone else so they got better dodging skills to compensate. Do you get charged stamina to block or get decreased blocking ability when gassed? Hell I'll dodge out with any class when I need to open space, not just on my assassin. Honestly instead of waiting for them to run out of stamina to beat them up you need to focus on knocking them out of their rhythm. Different classes require different strategies and instead of modding other classes to fit your playstyle I'd suggest adjusting your own. Try playing one of these classes that gives you a hard time. Maybe you'll pick up on some of their stuff a bit better or if nothing else you'll see how others counter what they throw at you. That's how I got into playing my zerker.

" Now, dodge rolling is another story. You can't really counter a backwards dodge roll unless you have a forward lunge attack or a forward dash attack."

The dodge roll is a out of target dodge though, which can be countered by doing the same-though it can be a bit risky.

You can dodge roll while locked on simply by double clicking x. I do it often by accident because sometimes the game doesn't register the dodge input so I'll spam the button and end up rolling.

scrubbyjimbob
03-07-2017, 10:45 PM
Really? lol I'll have to see if that works for me. Using a controller on a pc and some of it's a bit wanky, like my chat stuff only works about half of the time. :D I thought you were talking about that long roll that you can do out of target, though it would't work out of stam.

pure_energist
03-07-2017, 10:48 PM
To quote the commander in chief, "WRONG!"

Guard breaking will track a backwards dodge and chase you down as you dodge backwards. You just need to be quicker. Trust me, I'm a PK main. I know how to counter dodging. Now, dodge rolling is another story. You can't really counter a backwards dodge roll unless you have a forward lunge attack or a forward dash attack.

Noted. Thanks.

SAVAGE_CABBAGE1
03-07-2017, 11:00 PM
Its not the moves thats an issue its the inability to punish their mistakes. The issue is if i parry you into an unblock able overhead you still have time to dodge back. If i block and parry you till you are out of sram you still have the ability to infinite back up out of my grab reach. if i beak targeting to charge you to close distance you can still side step it even when out of stam. As a class thats supposed to be a counter attack they have made it almost impossible to land anything other then light counter attacks which makes the whole idea of being a designated counter attacker somewhat silly. You also never answered why dodging doesnt cost sram or have come kind of limit once you are out of stam. Basically when i win fights in duel is when the other person is there to actually fight and not infinitely back away after dumping light attacks.

the stam is a legit concern, however, every character other than PK and Conq, cannot move out of the way from the overhead, nor can they parry, if you parry a light.

TCTF_SWAT
03-07-2017, 11:25 PM
I want this to happen. I'll spam long arm loops forever...and noone will ever get away again. :)

I'll be a master pancake flipper in no time.

cragar212
03-08-2017, 01:04 AM
Only if they make block and parry cost stam o.O

Delectable_Sin
03-08-2017, 01:14 AM
No, attaching stamina costs to defense will cripple offense. If you run out of stamina, you're dead (on half of the roster) if it costs stamina to dodge, because blocking is much harder on those characters that rely on dodging.

Also, good Wardens dodge like crazy.

Honestly, good Wardens hard counter assassins, and you don't see assassins in the upper 20% of pub match making, because the big 4 dominates there -- and the Warden is one of the big 4.

If you're sitting around 50% win rate, you really don't know about balance. No offense, but it's just funny to see a Warden talk about nerfing assassins, when good Wardens destroy good assassins, and it isn't even close.

LuckyStrikerLHP
03-08-2017, 01:41 AM
I think the game desperately needs more moves for all classes I mean is it sane to start yelling spammer! at orochi with only 5 moves (excluding deflect and similar moves) 5 moves and 2 are defensive that leaves u with using 3 moves in attacking play.. More moves would create maybe more different problems but it would shut the spam & dodge whiners... No?

Delectable_Sin
03-08-2017, 01:44 AM
I think the game desperately needs more moves for all classes I mean is it sane to start yelling spammer! at orochi with only 5 moves (excluding deflect and similar moves) 5 moves and 2 are defensive that leaves u with using 3 moves in attacking play.. More moves would create maybe more different problems but it would shut the spam & dodge whiners... No?

Totally agree.

Sephriem
03-08-2017, 06:11 AM
The key movement machanic for Assasins is Dodge because of the inability to block indefinitely and to utilise the deflect skill. The ideal tactics for a law bringer vs assassin is to work in stamina reduction n short bursts, then go for you bigger slower throw over hits and attacks when downed.

Each hero has specific approaches to how you should consider countering their flow, each class more over has this same affect, you should fight assasins differently to hybrids,vanguards and heavies vice versa

Potato_6
03-08-2017, 06:19 AM
Yes Absolutely! To anyone that thinks it would be too punishable then git gud at blocking. Running out of stamina by either spamming attacks are getting hit by a heavies attack that damages stamina is in my opinion the games design to balance assassins with the heavies. It should create an opportunity for the heavy to close the distance and make attack attempts that are not easily dodged but must be blocked. With the guard break reverted back to beta then that cannot be easily exploited anymore with someone out of stamina. The player should be forced to encounter and block all incoming attacks until their stamina is recharged. Not only should it cost stamina but the dodge should be slowed as well with a reset similar to when attempting to throw attacks in stamina debt. This stamina feature is pointless if it does not allow forced encounters. IF there is not punishment for stamina debt then the High level gear system "balancing" is even more broke as who cares about stamina drain attribute as an Assassin? Give me that gold full attack and defense gear Please; I'll just slip away every time I'm out of stam....pfft.

This guy gets it.

YutoJW
03-08-2017, 06:39 AM
I'm a lawbringer and the core of it is the shove, the grap that put you on the floor and the unblockable heavy attack.
Usually I can land the shove but still after it I need to use a light attack cause the heavy it's to slow so even after a shove PK can dodge it easy (and the changing direction for parry or block it's to slow so PK can easy hit me and or gb me cause I can cgb)
The grap it's almost impossible to land, seriously to easy to dodge because it's a slow movement
The unblockable heavy same as the grap you can easily see and avoid it.
So the fact is why I need focus, knowledge, and perfect timing of everything for have a chance to win, when PK can win with just a minimum knowledge.
This is a skill game but due to this mechanics it's just broke and skill doesn't matter anymore

Nomir2016
03-08-2017, 06:51 AM
I dont agree, dodge should not cost stamina. Because you cant fully control your stamina levels, there are powers which reduce stamina, lawbringer has actually one, also stun grande and trap are another ones. Also there would be impossible to escape some combos, like Valkiras ground throwing, GB is useles there, or Wardens vortex, etc.
Its fine how it is.

ipm204
03-08-2017, 07:00 AM
Bad Idea. Some players spam certain character moves over and over. Particularly the Waden's shoulder bash + double light. Players are staggered and can't counter the double light follow up. This can be dodged but it takes stamina when it hits you. This combo can be done constantly until it gets dodged, but if Ubi added stamina cost to dodging, nobody would be able to get out of this move.