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View Full Version : Fighting Multiple Enemies with a System Built for Duels



Bebille
03-07-2017, 03:45 PM
It's very simple, really. This game is not built for fighting multiple opponents at once.

No matter how good you are, this game sets you up to fail once two people set their sights on you. I'm going to anticipate the oncoming cancer and state 'I know you are, but what am I' to the barrage of 'na u just bad kek' comments I know are coming my way. And the one smart-*** that'll comment my example as he fails at trying to be funny.

The fighting system in this game is mostly fine. With the exception of poor design choices, overlooked issues and all-around lack of care from Ubisoft's part. Here are a few examples:
1. Warden's vortex (which not only is stupid in its own right, but it adds insult to injury that I can't counter that guardbreak that I predicted perfectly because the timing is completely different from every other guardbreak)
2. Conqueror's insanely stupid barely dodge-able ballet dance routine and Peacekeeper as a whole.
3. Free hits, which are attacks so ******* fast they shouldn't be in the game. Warden's zone, Orochi's zone, Peacekeeper's zone, Warlord's zone, Warlord's unblockable headbutt, and probably more that I'm forgetting.
4. Rewarding ****-like behavior, - the fact that guardbreak spam is only really punishable by a single light attack, the fact that running away means the enemy won't be able to get the execute off on you, and more examples like this.
5. Feats, from their existence to their lack of balance, feats are just ******* Call of Duty kill streak rewards. And the balance is just phenomenal, Shugoki gets a slow health-regen, and Warden gets a free team-wipe. Seems fair to me. Side note - why are the people at Ubisoft so bad at judging damage? The bow does 'moderate' damage? 70% of my health bar is 'moderate' damage?

These five examples are really only the tip of the iceberg, as I can deal with them somewhat easily, but what this post is about is how this fighting system is flawed in every single way when it comes to fighting multiple opponents.


THE RANT

Christ, where the **** do I start?


PARRYING
My play style includes a lot of parrying. It's something I think I'm decently good at. The reason I'm good at this, is because I can react fast the instant I see that white flash in the guard symbol. Now, in 2v1s, this white flash doesn't happen with the external block, which forces me to guess when to parry. This sets me up to fall. Imagine fighting a 1v1 match with a constant 'blind' debuff active. That's how it feels to fight two opponents at once when it comes to parrying. Not only that, but once you DO get the parry off, you're actually extremely vulnerable to any and all unblockable attacks (more on this later).


GUARDBREAKS
The easiest way to win a 1v2 is by simply spamming guardbreak as the enemy fights your buddy. You won't be punished for it, and you'll eventually get the enemy in his windup phase, getting you and your friend free hits. Fun, right? Not to mention the fact that when an enemy that you aren't locked on to guardbreaks, you don't get the HUD warning that you get with the enemy that you're locked on to - which means that you're fighting blindly again. Even if you get the guardbreak off and the enemy counters it, your buddy still gets a free hit off! It's a win-win situation!


REVENGE
Your only chance to fight back. This mode gives you a free parry to any attack when you activate it (which is easily avoidable, just feint), a defense boost, the ability to tank hits while you're attacking and a damage boost to boot!
Sounds fantastic, doesn't it? Well too bad it's almost useless if your enemy isn't ****. I don't have the energy to explain why - It's obvious, honestly.


DODGING AND UNBLOCKABLES
Oh boy. This. The reason I can't lose a ******* 1v2 with my Shugoki. The reason Lawbringers are a ****ing MUST in Skirmish matches. There is no way to get past this. You are in a lose-lose situation. Since parrying is ****ed, unblockable attacks are hard to counter, making it easy to hit your opponent - basically guaranteeing you victory if you aren't garbage. But forget that, because unblockable, unpa

rryable attacks exist. There is virtually no effective way of countering these. If I get hit by it, I get punished. If I dodge it, I get punished. There is absolutely no way to fight this.

I could go on, but I've already complained enough.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on anything here.

Gray360UK
03-07-2017, 04:03 PM
You are onto something, in a way, but also I think you are too stuck on the idea of duelling and 1 vs 1 encounters, which many people think the game is all about.
It isn't.

The game has far too many insta kill, cheese, no skill, environment deaths and far more modes that are about teams and ganging up on people. Mechanics are in place entirely with the expectation of you being outnumbered, Revenge being the no.1 of them all.
This is not accidental.

Look at how many bits of gear have a Revenge related stat on them.
You think Ubisoft based their entire game / combat system around gank mechanics and intended people to skillfully 1 vs 1 each other?

I admit I occasionally make the mistake of trying to use what I have learned in duels and in practice to 1 vs 1 an opponent in Dominion / Skirmish / Elimination.
Then his Viking mate smacks me over the back of the head and I die.
Just as I have demonstrated my mastery of the block, the parry, the evade, the well timed chain ... someone blows me up with the Catapult feat.

It's a matter of perspective.
But every time you enter a mode that is not 1 vs 1 and believe your individual fighting ability is the most important thing, you are doing it wrong.

Now you say the game is not built for fighting multiple opponents at once, I disagree.
it is, but not with 1 vs 1 skills, you have to leave those at the door.

I would think dedicated Duellers can probably tell when they are facing someone who is used to 4 vs 4 chaos, lack of blocks and parrys etc.
Likewise, as a dedicated 4 vs 4 player (I detest Duels) I can tell when I am facing a Dueller. They do all the right things for a duel and none of the right things for a 4 vs 4.

The game has a bit of an identity crisis, and many people believe 1 vs 1 skill will conquer all, and it will to a small degree.
But the dozen or more mechanics and the different skill set needed in 4 vs 4 chaos (which is by far the most popular mode) shows the true nature of the game.
Your only problem comes from not accepting the game for what it truly is.

TL;DR: The game is not about honour, or duels, or your skill in a 1 vs 1 (except in that Mode, of course).

ShlickShlick
03-07-2017, 04:59 PM
Warden's vortex is not unfair. For it to work he has to read what you will do and for you to counter it you have to read what they will do. That is 2 (two) guesses.
You play rps with each other basicly. If he goes for a raw shoulder charge, you sidestep. If he cancels into guardbreak, you attack. If he cancels into a feint heavy, you gardbreak.
Please don't tell me you think rps is unfair.
Conq's charge has terrible tracking on it. It is not hard to dodge.

Onto zones ad fast attacks.
These are much more punishable than you might think.
Once you know that a warden just wants to alternate between top light and zone they aren't very hard to block. If you do block one, you get a guardbreak. A WHOLE GUARDBREAK. There is high risk to using zones against someone who expects it.

As far as the ganking goes you are right. It is very difficult to win a 1v2 if one person guardgreaks and the other attacks. I would imagine that having two people fight you in real life would be difficult to deal with. I don't understand why people make this complaint. Going into a game mode where the odds can be stacked against you and then crying when it happens is childish. Is dying in a situation where you most likely would die really all that bad?

Gray360UK
03-07-2017, 05:17 PM
As far as the ganking goes you are right. It is very difficult to win a 1v2 if one person guardgreaks and the other attacks. I would imagine that having two people fight you in real life would be difficult to deal with. I don't understand why people make this complaint. Going into a game mode where the odds can be stacked against you and then crying when it happens is childish. Is dying in a situation where you most likely would dye really all that bad?

This 100%
Maybe my background playing large scale PvP in MMOs has made me biased. I have been ganked by 40 people, not 4, lol :D

ParadigmFringe
03-07-2017, 05:27 PM
It's very simple, really. This game is not built for fighting multiple opponents at once.

No matter how good you are, this game sets you up to fail once two people set their sights on you. I'm going to anticipate the oncoming cancer and state 'I know you are, but what am I' to the barrage of 'na u just bad kek' comments I know are coming my way. And the one smart-*** that'll comment my example as he fails at trying to be funny.

The fighting system in this game is mostly fine. With the exception of poor design choices, overlooked issues and all-around lack of care from Ubisoft's part. Here are a few examples:
1. Warden's vortex (which not only is stupid in its own right, but it adds insult to injury that I can't counter that guardbreak that I predicted perfectly because the timing is completely different from every other guardbreak)
2. Conqueror's insanely stupid barely dodge-able ballet dance routine and Peacekeeper as a whole.
3. Free hits, which are attacks so ******* fast they shouldn't be in the game. Warden's zone, Orochi's zone, Peacekeeper's zone, Warlord's zone, Warlord's unblockable headbutt, and probably more that I'm forgetting.
4. Rewarding ****-like behavior, - the fact that guardbreak spam is only really punishable by a single light attack, the fact that running away means the enemy won't be able to get the execute off on you, and more examples like this.
5. Feats, from their existence to their lack of balance, feats are just ******* Call of Duty kill streak rewards. And the balance is just phenomenal, Shugoki gets a slow health-regen, and Warden gets a free team-wipe. Seems fair to me. Side note - why are the people at Ubisoft so bad at judging damage? The bow does 'moderate' damage? 70% of my health bar is 'moderate' damage?

These five examples are really only the tip of the iceberg, as I can deal with them somewhat easily, but what this post is about is how this fighting system is flawed in every single way when it comes to fighting multiple opponents.


THE RANT

Christ, where the **** do I start?


PARRYING
My play style includes a lot of parrying. It's something I think I'm decently good at. The reason I'm good at this, is because I can react fast the instant I see that white flash in the guard symbol. Now, in 2v1s, this white flash doesn't happen with the external block, which forces me to guess when to parry. This sets me up to fall. Imagine fighting a 1v1 match with a constant 'blind' debuff active. That's how it feels to fight two opponents at once when it comes to parrying. Not only that, but once you DO get the parry off, you're actually extremely vulnerable to any and all unblockable attacks (more on this later).


GUARDBREAKS
The easiest way to win a 1v2 is by simply spamming guardbreak as the enemy fights your buddy. You won't be punished for it, and you'll eventually get the enemy in his windup phase, getting you and your friend free hits. Fun, right? Not to mention the fact that when an enemy that you aren't locked on to guardbreaks, you don't get the HUD warning that you get with the enemy that you're locked on to - which means that you're fighting blindly again. Even if you get the guardbreak off and the enemy counters it, your buddy still gets a free hit off! It's a win-win situation!


REVENGE
Your only chance to fight back. This mode gives you a free parry to any attack when you activate it (which is easily avoidable, just feint), a defense boost, the ability to tank hits while you're attacking and a damage boost to boot!
Sounds fantastic, doesn't it? Well too bad it's almost useless if your enemy isn't ****. I don't have the energy to explain why - It's obvious, honestly.


DODGING AND UNBLOCKABLES
Oh boy. This. The reason I can't lose a ******* 1v2 with my Shugoki. The reason Lawbringers are a ****ing MUST in Skirmish matches. There is no way to get past this. You are in a lose-lose situation. Since parrying is ****ed, unblockable attacks are hard to counter, making it easy to hit your opponent - basically guaranteeing you victory if you aren't garbage. But forget that, because unblockable, unparryable attacks exist. There is virtually no effective way of countering these. If I get hit by it, I get punished. If I dodge it, I get punished. There is absolutely no way to fight this.

I could go on, but I've already complained enough.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on anything here. my conq AND my lawbringer (arguably the worst character in the game) regularly win 1v2 matchups. you're just bad.

Potato_6
03-07-2017, 06:20 PM
Warden's vortex is not unfair. For it to work he has to read what you will do and for you to counter it you have to read what they will do. That is 2 (two) guesses.
You play rps with each other basicly. If he goes for a raw shoulder charge, you sidestep. If he cancels into guardbreak, you attack. If he cancels into a feint heavy, you gardbreak.
Please don't tell me you think rps is unfair.
Conq's charge has terrible tracking on it. It is not hard to dodge.

Onto zones ad fast attacks.
These are much more punishable than you might think.
Once you know that a warden just wants to alternate between top light and zone they aren't very hard to block. If you do block one, you get a guardbreak. A WHOLE GUARDBREAK. There is high risk to using zones against someone who expects it.



Not to sure about this. What class are you playing as that recovers/ attacks fast enough land lights on a gb? Granted I'm an average joe not a competitive l33tsauce, but I find this very difficult to counter. If one lands then its cheese to victory when I fight wardens and conqs. The only limiting factor is if they run out of stamina. I cannot avoid the hit after a bash and can only dodge/block if they attempt to follow up the first hit with a second. I have seen conqs turn with me as I dodge and still land the bash. I don't find their tracking terrible at all. I find warlords tracking not so good but even when I play conq it is spot on. I can be dodged if its timed right but if not hes coming with you wherever you go. God help you if you don't see him coming.

I think alot of the hate for their zone happens when they run up to a fight in progress and just spam zones. I could be wrong.

RatedChaotic
03-07-2017, 06:29 PM
I have taken on 2 and on occasions 3 players at the same time and have won. So I stopped reading your post after the third sentence. Because right there proved to me, you have no idea what your talking about.

Bebille
03-07-2017, 06:38 PM
I have taken on 2 and on occasions 3 players at the same time and have won. So I stopped reading your post after the third sentence. Because right there proved to me, you have no idea what your talking about.

How ****ing dumb are you?

Did I ever say I didn't win 2v1s regularly?

No, I didn't. It happens all the time.

But when I fight genuinely capable players (which, evidently, you didn't) I lose.

It's very simple.

Bebille
03-07-2017, 06:42 PM
Warden's vortex is not unfair. For it to work he has to read what you will do and for you to counter it you have to read what they will do. That is 2 (two) guesses.
You play rps with each other basicly. If he goes for a raw shoulder charge, you sidestep. If he cancels into guardbreak, you attack. If he cancels into a feint heavy, you gardbreak.
Please don't tell me you think rps is unfair.
Conq's charge has terrible tracking on it. It is not hard to dodge.

It is unfair, you don't need to predict what the enemy is going to do - because you can just see him do it. You can't escape my vortexes by dodging, only by rolling (or dodge-attacking). It's just that most Wardens, for some reasons, just automatically go for the guardbreak after the first charge hits.

Bebille
03-07-2017, 06:44 PM
my conq AND my lawbringer (arguably the worst character in the game) regularly win 1v2 matchups. you're just bad.

And so do I, against bad players. You're missing the ****ing point.

Go ahead and try to fight me and a friend, you won't be able to.

Kharneth88
03-07-2017, 07:40 PM
Try parrying an unblockable, it's easy but apparently impossible??

Also, blocking and parrying external attacks isn't hard, either, especially when they are external unblockables. Furthermore, when fighting 2 enemies at once you are forced to do something you should be doing all the time - paying attention to the enemy's weapon, not the red indicator. If you get accustom to parry timing based on the enemy's weapon and not based on the flashing red light you will have an easier time parrying everyone and most noticeably the external attacks.

Another thing, when you have the external guy guard break you constantly and you're able to counter the guard breaks, you can also block the other person's attacks. You aren't just vulnerable, you can still control your guard direction even though for a moment the white tabs aren't visible, they'll appear when you block the other guy's attack. When it's 1v2 you should be in a defensive mindset anyway, focus on maintaining the block towards the external enemy while preparing to move it in response to your target's attacks and also be prepared to counter the guard breaks. It's only 3 things, and one of them is pretty passive (external blocking) while the other is pretty predictable (guard breaking). Then you can activate revenge after the feint window.