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View Full Version : The Warden. An apology and proof that a fix is needed.



RippingLotus
03-01-2017, 02:54 AM
Hello everyone, I would like to start off with an apology. Recently I made an ignorant response on the forums to a post concerning the Warden and his capabilities. The post revolved around the Warden being able to land a top heavy attack (which does 40 dmg) after obtaining a parry. I made this response due to the fact that I had never witnessed this action during my time of play on the Xbox One. I belittled his statement and attempted to "educate" him on the Warden and for that I apologize to said person and the rest of those who have experienced this. There has also been complaints pertaining to his shoulder bash, again, I have not witnessed the full try hard effect of the Warden on my console experience.

But located here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-v-PsyB69w is the capabilities of a Warden, that I cannot simply stand by. I main the Warden and I love the character, but after watching True Talent exploit this maneuver the way he does, I simply can't look at my favorite character the same as he is. I would simply suggest removing the ability to guard break someone, making it a straight forward technique similar to that of Conqueror shield bash. I don't mind the ability to cancel it. But the shoulder bash being able to have so much utility is absurd. I will not make an argument towards his top light attack and his zone attack. These 2 are essential to even landing any kind of damage against turtle or assassin characters. But the vortex effect definitely needs some form of fix.

ThePollie
03-01-2017, 02:58 AM
A shocking display of maturity for a Ubisoft forum, I must say.

Bravo.

DaRyuujin
03-01-2017, 03:19 AM
All I know is when a warden tries to spam his vortex like that against me he usually gets worked over..maybe thats why I don't see it as an issue because though I've had it used against me a lot It's never been a huge issue. No more than any of the other classes annoying features, especially spam ones. They may get one quick/easy kill on me but past that I know the vortex is the main weapon in their arsenal and fight accordingly.

Gray360UK
03-01-2017, 03:42 AM
So in the first round he gets killed by the other Warden.
To me that kinda proves his Warden or whatever he does with it isn't OP / broken.

The Nobushi was bad and never used distance to stay out of reach, was literally toe to toe fighting with the Warden despite having a 6ft spear. The Nobushi was one decent bit of play away from winning. My Nobushi would have been backwards evading with the move that thrusts the spear forward, poisons, and keeps you out of GB range.

Bad opponents, bad examples.
If you can get a Warden within 1 hit of death he is not some sort of invulnerable God because of an exploit move.

Weird that you seem to overlook when he does really badly, but call it broken when he does well?

If he had won all of the rounds without a scratch you might have a point, but to lose some and be near death in the rest?

Not seeing a problem.

SilverCether
03-01-2017, 03:42 AM
I'm pretty certain what you meant was "git gud" "nerf everyone buff warden" and "I'm tired of 108 gear people in my duels".

I mean your post *looks* like a coherent and well thought out post, but this is the for honor forums. I know better.

RippingLotus
03-01-2017, 03:59 AM
So in the first round he gets killed by the other Warden.
To me that kinda proves his Warden or whatever he does with it isn't OP / broken.

The Nobushi was bad and never used distance to stay out of reach, was literally toe to toe fighting with the Warden despite having a 6ft spear. The Nobushi was one decent bit of play away from winning. My Nobushi would have been backwards evading with the move that thrusts the spear forward, poisons, and keeps you out of GB range.

Bad opponents, bad examples.
If you can get a Warden within 1 hit of death he is not some sort of invulnerable God because of an exploit move.

Weird that you seem to overlook when he does really badly, but call it broken when he does well?

If he had won all of the rounds without a scratch you might have a point, but to lose some and be near death in the rest?

Not seeing a problem.

The problem isn't being his opponent is either good or bad. The problem is that the shoulder bash has too much utility as compared to every other character that has an initiating unblockable attack. Shoulder bash utility is as follows: Can be charged for better tracking, to knock an opponent further away, guarantee a free top heavy, and deplete a larger portion of their stamina. Can be cancelled into a guard break that tracks. Can be cancelled in order to parry, block, bait, or evade an attack. And you find nothing wrong with this on top of his ability for an easy landing top light and zone attack. I never said that I overlooked his bad games. No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. But its not simply a matter of a player's performance it's about a character's capability and how he easily over shadows majority of the others. Now, don't get me wrong I main the Warden. Personally he can stay as is for all I care, for I don't run into this problem. I made this post because it's something that's wrong and that particular move shouldn't have that much utility. If you can play against it, well that's good for you, Sir. A player's skill can only carry them so far, after you've reached that point, your particular character's moveset is what's going to carry you the rest of the way and the argument is that the Warden does this too easily.

RippingLotus
03-01-2017, 04:04 AM
I'm pretty certain what you meant was "git gud" "nerf everyone buff warden" and "I'm tired of 108 gear people in my duels".

I mean your post *looks* like a coherent and well thought out post, but this is the for honor forums. I know better.

If your going to give a response at least make it *look* like you thought it out. Gear levels are irrelevant in duels and brawl modes. What part of "git gud" was even remotely hinted at in my post? And this was a post to request a fix to the unanimous amount of utility the shoulder bash has. So how about you *think* before you post stupid responses.

Raven-Mad
03-01-2017, 04:05 AM
Hello everyone, I would like to start off with an apology. Recently I made an ignorant response on the forums to a post concerning the Warden and his capabilities. The post revolved around the Warden being able to land a top heavy attack (which does 40 dmg) after obtaining a parry. I made this response due to the fact that I had never witnessed this action during my time of play on the Xbox One. I belittled his statement and attempted to "educate" him on the Warden and for that I apologize to said person and the rest of those who have experienced this. There has also been complaints pertaining to his shoulder bash, again, I have not witnessed the full try hard effect of the Warden on my console experience.

But located here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-v-PsyB69w is the capabilities of a Warden, that I cannot simply stand by. I main the Warden and I love the character, but after watching True Talent exploit this maneuver the way he does, I simply can't look at my favorite character the same as he is. I would simply suggest removing the ability to guard break someone, making it a straight forward technique similar to that of Conqueror shield bash. I don't mind the ability to cancel it. But the shoulder bash being able to have so much utility is absurd. I will not make an argument towards his top light attack and his zone attack. These 2 are essential to even landing any kind of damage against turtle or assassin characters. But the vortex effect definitely needs some form of fix.

Honestly I don't know what you're referring to as a special problem. Sure shoulder bash has more utility than comparable techniques, but suggesting that's a problem because it's so strong fails to consider the overall balance of the character. That one aspect being absurdly strong doesn't make the character absurdly strong. There's a reason Warlords, Shugoki, and Conqueror are on many high tier duel lists considered stronger.

Take Warlord for example, let's compare his pros/cons to Warden:

Warden:

Fast top light
Followup side lights
Crushing Blow
Fast/good reaching zone attack
Shoulder bash (massive bonus to be sure)

Warlord:

Uninterruptible heavies
Full block
Superior block (the effect, not redundant with fullguard, it just goes hand in hand)
Headbutt
Shield Counter
Throw distance
Lowest switch frames of all classes (https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/5w8rwy/frame_data_mega_thread/)
Higher health

I think it's fairly clear that, taken together, Warden isn't severely broken compared to Warlord. Maybe stronger, most likely weaker (ask most high level duelists, Warlord is considered 1st or 2nd strongest by most, Warden is considered strong by most but not broken).

If Warden's shoulder bash needs fixed to any degree, you'll have to at least address these other classes in some comparable way. Otherwise, literally all you're doing is further limiting one classes viability.

In short, Warden's strength overall mostly lies in one ability: shoulder bash. If you remove it's utility, Warden is Warlord 2 slightly faster attacks that are hyper predictable and nothing else. Shoulder Bash needs to be better than it's competitors or Warden will not be nearly as competitive at higher tiers (as that's largely the only thing keeping them in high tier viability).

RippingLotus
03-01-2017, 04:21 AM
Honestly I don't know what you're referring to as a special problem. Sure shoulder bash has more utility than comparable techniques, but suggesting that's a problem because it's so strong fails to consider the overall balance of the character. That one aspect being absurdly strong doesn't make the character absurdly strong. There's a reason Warlords, Shugoki, and Conqueror are on many high tier duel lists considered stronger.

Take Warlord for example, let's compare his pros/cons to Warden:

Warden:

Fast top light
Followup side lights
Crushing Blow
Fast/good reaching zone attack
Shoulder bash (massive bonus to be sure)

Warlord:

Uninterruptible heavies
Full block
Superior block (the effect, not redundant with fullguard, it just goes hand in hand)
Headbutt
Shield Counter
Throw distance
Lowest switch frames of all classes (https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/5w8rwy/frame_data_mega_thread/)
Higher health

I think it's fairly clear that, taken together, Warden isn't severely broken compared to Warlord. Maybe stronger, most likely weaker (ask most high level duelists, Warlord is considered 1st or 2nd strongest by most, Warden is considered strong by most but not broken).

If Warden's shoulder bash needs fixed to any degree, you'll have to at least address these other classes in some comparable way. Otherwise, literally all you're doing is further limiting one classes viability.

In short, Warden's strength overall mostly lies in one ability: shoulder bash. If you remove it's utility, Warden is Warlord 2 slightly faster attacks that are hyper predictable and nothing else. Shoulder Bash needs to be better than it's competitors or Warden will not be nearly as competitive at higher tiers (as that's largely the only thing keeping them in high tier viability).

Why of course, because everyone you just listed are the top 4 characters in the game. But I'll provide you with a more "interactive" response when I return from work ;)

SilverCether
03-01-2017, 04:28 AM
If your going to give a response at least make it *look* like you thought it out. Gear levels are irrelevant in duels and brawl modes. What part of "git gud" was even remotely hinted at in my post? And this was a post to request a fix to the unanimous amount of utility the shoulder bash has. So how about you *think* before you post stupid responses.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/781/383/235.gif

I want you to read your post, then my post. Then your post. Then my post. Back to yours. Back to mine. If you cannot see it there is no helping you.

Kaneki196
03-01-2017, 04:45 AM
Hello everyone, I would like to start off with an apology. Recently I made an ignorant response on the forums to a post concerning the Warden and his capabilities. The post revolved around the Warden being able to land a top heavy attack (which does 40 dmg) after obtaining a parry. I made this response due to the fact that I had never witnessed this action during my time of play on the Xbox One. I belittled his statement and attempted to "educate" him on the Warden and for that I apologize to said person and the rest of those who have experienced this. There has also been complaints pertaining to his shoulder bash, again, I have not witnessed the full try hard effect of the Warden on my console experience.

But located here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-v-PsyB69w is the capabilities of a Warden, that I cannot simply stand by. I main the Warden and I love the character, but after watching True Talent exploit this maneuver the way he does, I simply can't look at my favorite character the same as he is. I would simply suggest removing the ability to guard break someone, making it a straight forward technique similar to that of Conqueror shield bash. I don't mind the ability to cancel it. But the shoulder bash being able to have so much utility is absurd. I will not make an argument towards his top light attack and his zone attack. These 2 are essential to even landing any kind of damage against turtle or assassin characters. But the vortex effect definitely needs some form of fix.

u take this away and what does the warden have? its not even op its just people who suck that get screwed over by this stuff. u go against someone good and guess what anything u throw at them with the warden aint gonna work...

SerArthur-Dayne
03-01-2017, 05:07 AM
Ive never had much problems fighting wardens tbh, although I play him the most so maybe I can just read it fairly easy. Especially with the new (and easier) GB mechanic just implemented in the game, its going to be a lot easier to break out of any vortex from wardens.

The only other thing I hope Ubi change, is to make rolling cost a lot less stamina. This will go a step further in helping avoid vortex spam from a bunch of heros, not just wardens.

There are a lot of heros that have some pretty nasty similar moves: Valkyrie leg sweep, Conq shield bash (and impossible to escape in revenge mode), Warlord headbut, nobushi poke- kick- poke, Lawbringer has one too...

I really dont think hes OP, just that they needed to fix GB (which they have) and possibly reduce roll stam cost a bit... Anyway, take that as you will from a warden player I guess...

Egotistic_Ez
03-01-2017, 05:18 AM
So in the first round he gets killed by the other Warden.
To me that kinda proves his Warden or whatever he does with it isn't OP / broken.

Just curious, can you logic that one out for me? Warden is fine because it lost to warden?

Gray360UK
03-01-2017, 05:29 AM
The problem isn't being his opponent is either good or bad. The problem is that the shoulder bash has too much utility as compared to every other character that has an initiating unblockable attack. Shoulder bash utility is as follows: Can be charged for better tracking, to knock an opponent further away, guarantee a free top heavy, and deplete a larger portion of their stamina. Can be cancelled into a guard break that tracks. Can be cancelled in order to parry, block, bait, or evade an attack. And you find nothing wrong with this on top of his ability for an easy landing top light and zone attack. I never said that I overlooked his bad games. No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. But its not simply a matter of a player's performance it's about a character's capability and how he easily over shadows majority of the others. Now, don't get me wrong I main the Warden. Personally he can stay as is for all I care, for I don't run into this problem. I made this post because it's something that's wrong and that particular move shouldn't have that much utility. If you can play against it, well that's good for you, Sir. A player's skill can only carry them so far, after you've reached that point, your particular character's moveset is what's going to carry you the rest of the way and the argument is that the Warden does this too easily.

You are talking in theoretical terms based on hypothetical scenarios instead of what actually happens in the game when you fight a Warden.
Maybe you don't fight enough of them because you are one, maybe you spam GB on noobs and it works, I don't know.
The point is, GB doesn't do anything to make the Warden superior, unkillable, broken or OP.
The Warden being more reliant on it than others =/= the Warden is OP / broken because he uses it.

What is 'too much utility' even supposed to mean?
Too much compared to what?
What else does a Warden have in their arsenal?
Compared to other classes the range of options available to the Warden is laughable.
You could make a list of the ways any class can use half of their moves that would be at least as long as the list you make here for the Warden using GB.

You still claim the Warden 'overshadows' the majority when he simply doesn't, and the video proves he doesn't.
There is no overshadowing in the video.
He does fairly poorly against some fairly poor opponents.

Not trying to argue you out of your view, you can stick to it, but if there's a problem, it's not demonstrated in that video, or in what I see in game.

I can see when the other poster made the same point I'm making, that other classes have longer lists, you dismissed it out of hand for dubious reasons. I get it, you think Warden is OP. Others think the same about Orochi, Peacekeeper, Nobushi, Valkyrie, Warlord ... probably every class at some point, except maybe the poor old Raider.

As Raven-Mad said "That one aspect being absurdly strong doesn't make the character absurdly strong"

I also think you have it backwards in your last sentence. Your moveset will only carry you so far, after that your skill is what's going to carry you the rest of the way.

neogeo___
03-01-2017, 06:05 AM
u take this away and what does the warden have? its not even op its just people who suck that get screwed over by this stuff. u go against someone good and guess what anything u throw at them with the warden aint gonna work...

Guess that would be true for any hero and any strategy. If you're that good than you'll counter it.

meh

The ability to cancel into GB in the first bash without starting it after a light attack hit I'd be kinda ok with, the ability to do it after is in fact dumb and way too rewarding considering risk and stamina cost for the user.

What does the warden have if you remove the cancel into GB? A crazy zone attack that needs some serious speed reduction, ability to counter to unblockable any overhead move, guaranteed GB and subsequent side heavies after parry, one of the fastest guard stance speeds, 2nd light guaranteed after first side light hit and still the ability to drain stamina and impede the opponent to regain his by successfully bashing.
Problem is, if you successfully avoid the bash by side dodging or even worse, back dodging out of range, the cancel into GB will still get you which is dumb. You either pray for the cancel so you can tech it and get free of the vortex or you roll if able too (which shouldn't even be considered a viable option to counter a move in a duel situation, leaves you at a huge disadvantage, may leave you without stamina and hard pressed to regaining your footing in the match).
This is obviously a mechanic that needs looking into no matter on much ppl get in here and tell you you need to "git gud" or counter pick.

PS: the op video isn't even the best example of ppl timing that move plus the rest of the move set and zone attacks to it's full extent.

RippingLotus
03-02-2017, 02:13 AM
You are talking in theoretical terms based on hypothetical scenarios instead of what actually happens in the game when you fight a Warden.
Maybe you don't fight enough of them because you are one, maybe you spam GB on noobs and it works, I don't know.
The point is, GB doesn't do anything to make the Warden superior, unkillable, broken or OP.
The Warden being more reliant on it than others =/= the Warden is OP / broken because he uses it.

What is 'too much utility' even supposed to mean?
Too much compared to what?
What else does a Warden have in their arsenal?
Compared to other classes the range of options available to the Warden is laughable.
You could make a list of the ways any class can use half of their moves that would be at least as long as the list you make here for the Warden using GB.

You still claim the Warden 'overshadows' the majority when he simply doesn't, and the video proves he doesn't.
There is no overshadowing in the video.
He does fairly poorly against some fairly poor opponents.

Not trying to argue you out of your view, you can stick to it, but if there's a problem, it's not demonstrated in that video, or in what I see in game.

I can see when the other poster made the same point I'm making, that other classes have longer lists, you dismissed it out of hand for dubious reasons. I get it, you think Warden is OP. Others think the same about Orochi, Peacekeeper, Nobushi, Valkyrie, Warlord ... probably every class at some point, except maybe the poor old Raider.

As Raven-Mad said "That one aspect being absurdly strong doesn't make the character absurdly strong"

I also think you have it backwards in your last sentence. Your moveset will only carry you so far, after that your skill is what's going to carry you the rest of the way.

The video is merely a "demonstration" of the tactic, he has others in which he's faced off against skilled players and it completely destroys. And it's not simply the GB making the Warden a problem, and perhaps I should have emphasized on this earlier, but it's the fact that it's guaranteed and the only way to escape is to either roll (which takes a decent chunk out of your stamina) or take a guess that he is going to GB you (a 50/50 chance he either GB or bashes you) and be ready to GB cancel. Yes, other characters do have their strengths and weaknesses, but that doesn't take away the fact that other characters need slightly tweaking as well. Warlord, completely fine as is. Conqueror, just received a slight nerf. Shugoki, I don't believe ANY character should have an insta kill ability.

I posted a slightly different post in the Suggestions & Feedback session. One member listed a suggestion that I support fully. Have shoulder bash cost a bit more stamina. I'm completely fine with that. Fact of the matter is a lot of the characters are fine, yes, but there are definitely small improvements to be made.