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blairgowrie
05-27-2004, 10:29 AM
My brother collided with 3 Spits in a flying accident in March 1942 while taking off. I have discovered the registration numbers of the aircraft he collided with and I would like to find out what happened to them.

The registration numbers are:
X4643
X4339
P7966

I did a quick web search and drew a blank on the first 2. But P7966 showed up right away as a Spit 2 flown by Douglas Bader. What is strange is that Bader collided with a 109 in 1941 and spent the rest of the war in a German prison camp. As the collision did not take place until 1942 I have to assume either, Bader wasn't flying P7966 or the information I have obtained from the RAF is incorrect.

If I could trace the 3 aircraft by their registration numbers, that might clear up the apparent discrepancy.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v41/blairgowrie/FBWebpage.jpg

blairgowrie
05-27-2004, 10:29 AM
My brother collided with 3 Spits in a flying accident in March 1942 while taking off. I have discovered the registration numbers of the aircraft he collided with and I would like to find out what happened to them.

The registration numbers are:
X4643
X4339
P7966

I did a quick web search and drew a blank on the first 2. But P7966 showed up right away as a Spit 2 flown by Douglas Bader. What is strange is that Bader collided with a 109 in 1941 and spent the rest of the war in a German prison camp. As the collision did not take place until 1942 I have to assume either, Bader wasn't flying P7966 or the information I have obtained from the RAF is incorrect.

If I could trace the 3 aircraft by their registration numbers, that might clear up the apparent discrepancy.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v41/blairgowrie/FBWebpage.jpg

Taylortony
05-27-2004, 10:51 AM
Ok I would suggest you read this first and go from there

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/hendon/research/documents/e-Info%20Sheet%205%20Aircraft.doc

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/hendon/research/enquiries.cfm

horseback
05-27-2004, 10:58 AM
I recall seeing a book listing Spits (and possibly all other wartim RAF a/c) serials and cross referencing their Squadron assignments and ultimate dispositions, but that was some time ago. However, that does mean the information you seek is available...

As for Bader's last mission, I believe that he was flying a Mk Va by that time, and resisting mightily the assignment of a cannon armed Spit.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Taylortony
05-27-2004, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Taylortony:
Ok I would suggest you read this first and go from there

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/hendon/research/documents/e-Info%20Sheet%205%20Aircraft.doc

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/hendon/research/enquiries.cfm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also try http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/ahb.html

blairgowrie
05-27-2004, 12:57 PM
That's great information Taylortony and horseback. Just when I think I have reached a blank wall in my research, another door mysteriously opens.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v41/blairgowrie/FBWebpage.jpg

trumper
05-27-2004, 01:46 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Be polite and join this forum,theres ALOT of good people on here that may be able to help http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?s=4622def428601e61e5fd9208d643112 f&forumid=4

Good luck,let us know how you get on http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

k5054
05-27-2004, 02:23 PM
"Spitfire the history", morgan and shacklady, has the serials and brief service lives of all Spitfires. P7966 and X4643 seem to have spent a long time in repair after March 42, P7966 emerged in october only to crash a few days later. If P7966 was flown by Bader it was probably while it served in 616 sqn in 1941, the Wing Leader might fly an a/c from any Sqn in his wing.

trumper
05-27-2004, 02:29 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Hope you don't mind,i have asked on the forum for you http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?p=366683#post366683

Keep an eye on it,good luck

BerkshireHunt
05-27-2004, 02:30 PM
This from Morgan and Shacklady (service card details which read chronologically). I've tried to interpret the cryptic abbreviations as best I can, but some are unknown to me:

X4643 (page 93)

1235 FF (First Flight?) 21/10/40
6MU (Maintenance Unit?) 23/10/40
72S (S=Squadron?) 26/10/40
485S 7/5/41
61OTU (Operational Training Unit?) 1/6
ASTE 13/3/42
RNAS (Royal Naval Air Service?) 9/9
CE 13/10/44


X4339 (page 90)

1100 FF 2/9/40
8MU 4/9/40
66S 7/9/40
Shot down by He111 forced landing C2 P/O Cruickshanks safe
11/9/40 SAL
57OTU 3/6/41
306S 6/10/41
215MU 21/10/42
'Bar For' 9/11/42 (sent overseas?)
Port 21/11/42


P7966 (page 112)

Manxman 45MU 24/2/41
616S 23/3/41
2S 5/8/41
154S 9/1/42
61OTU 3/3/42
HAL 11/3/42
52OTU 3/10/42
dvd i/building Quedgeley MU Glos (dived into building?)
CE 15/10/42

blairgowrie
05-27-2004, 03:54 PM
Thanks very much for the info Trumper, K5054 and BerkshireHunt. I can't believe all the help I am getting on this. Much appreciated.

And thanks Trumper for posting this thread on the website. I will certainly join and be most polite.

By way of additional information, I posted some stuff about my brother's accident in two other threads. Here are the links. My sincere thanks to Taylortony for letting me highjack his thread and all the support he has given me.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=987106593

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=200101823&r=723102033#723102033

From the information so far it looks as though all three Spits were able to be repaired after the collision.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v41/blairgowrie/FBWebpage.jpg

Taylortony
05-27-2004, 04:17 PM
No need to thank me, it is a privilege to help you out, incidentally the last spitfire having been named Manxman will help you inconsiderably as the named Spits were recorded in a lot of detail, do a search for it and you will be suprised... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BerkshireHunt
05-27-2004, 05:23 PM
Having thought about it more, I think the details for X4339 should read:

1100 FF 2/9/40
8MU 4/9/40
66S 7/9/40
Shot down by He111 forced landing C2 P/O Cruickshanks safe 11/9/40 [SAL(vaged?)]
57OTU 3/6/41
306S 6/10/41
215MU 21/10/42
'Bar For' 9/11/42 (sent overseas?)
Port 21/11/42

No idea what CE, HAL or ASTE stand for though.

k5054
05-28-2004, 02:54 AM
CE = category E, the highest damage cat, means written off.
HAL Heston Aircraft Ltd, a repair outfit
ASTE Airwork Services Training Exeter, ditto

Interesting to see how much time these three a/c spent in repair. 21 months between them.

(SAL is Scottish Aviation, another repair shop.)

blairgowrie
05-28-2004, 10:14 AM
Thanks to Trumper who posted on a UK website, I have been able to confirm that it was Bader's aircraft although by March 1942, Bader was in a prisoner of war camp.

This aircraft P7966 was one of the first to carry Wing Commander Douglas Bader's initials on the fuselage. It was also a presentation Spitfire from the Manx public wearing the legend Manxman in 4 inch high yellow letters, below the cockpit on its starboard side.

It was built as a Mk11a, at Vickers-Armstrongs Castle Bromwich Factory and delivered to 45 Maintenance Unit on 24th February, 1941. Then it was issued to 616 Squadron as part of the Tangmere Wing on 23rd March, 1941, where it was flown by Wing Commander Douglas Bader up to July 1941 and remained with 616 Squadron until August 1941. (The aircraft that Douglas Bader bailed out over France in August 1941 being Mk Va Spitfire W3185 Lord Lloyd 1).

Just amazing how you can dig up information on this, 50 years after the event.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v41/blairgowrie/FBWebpage.jpg