PDA

View Full Version : This game is going to die within two months if attack vs. defense isn't balanced



YOGZULA
02-24-2017, 07:01 AM
I'm experiencing now, with For Honor, what I did with Evolve when it came out. A conceptually amazing games, executed brilliantly in so many ways to create something truly unique and innovative - but not without a few major flaws. It's understandable with games of this nature, but it's also important to respond to early criticisms.

One of For Honor's major flaws is the connectivity issues. They aren't always as bad as people make them out to be, but there are a lot of issues especially in 4v4. This is a dead horse though, so I'd like to speak more on the major flaws that people don't seem to be realizing or making enough of a fuss about.

Weak offensive options vs. powerful defensive options. There are a few heroes who have some viable offensive options, such as warden with his shoulder charge mixup, but almost every other hero is left with only their core tools. Blocking, parrying, guard breaking and light attack. Every hero has a unique chain of attacks, but none can actually use them. Most heroes have other tools in their kit, but few are actually useable.

The primary culprit here is parry and deflect as mechanics that reward unblockable damage for defensive play. At high level play nobody wants to attack first. You may attempt to go for guard breaks, but 95% of the time will be met with a counter guard-break. What you're left with is a game of footsies where both players attempt to poke with light attacks to slowly chip eachother down, and feint attacks to try to bait the enemy into getting parried. It's quite boring.

What would For Honor look like if parrying no longer guaranteed a free follow up?

We would have a back and forth style of combat where stamina is the most important resource. Even if players are great at blocking and evading damage and fights are drawn out, at least it will feel action packed and exciting. It will be fun to interact with and fun to watch. As it stands, fights are ALREADY drawn out, just in a much more boring and less fun way.

If parrying didn't guarantee free damage, the back and forth of attack vs. defense would revolve more heavily on stamina. If a player over asserts themself offensively and lets their stamina get low, parrying becomes a great option to fatigue them and go on the offensive. Parrying also continues to serve the purpose of protecting a defender against unblockable attacks. It would remain an important mechanic, just not an outrageously overpowered one that dictates the flow of the game and forces people into turtling and not attacking.

I'm being a broken record about this, as I've made posts about how broken parrying is as a mechanic since alpha 1 and every beta since. I've been met with a lot of people telling me that I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about, and I swear it feels like Evolve all over again. A game where I pointed out some core flaws and everyone told me how wrong and stupid I was, only for the game to die within a month. I loved Evolve and wanted it to be great, and I want the same of For Honor. This is not a difficult thing to fix. Parrying MUST be addressed and nerfed for the survival of this game on any level.

I really hope that even if nobody else agrees, the developers will have seen the same trends as I have and respond to them. It's not something that should be ignored.

Hogmin
02-24-2017, 07:06 AM
I actually like your suggestion, I don't mind the back and forth so long as it's involving, rather than 2 dudes just waiting to parry one another. There are also other things, such as making chains usable despite not connecting. Make it so you can chain even if the attack is blocked, but make it cost more Stamina. On top of that I'd like to see dodge cost at least SOME stamina, otherwise it'll just be Dodge>Parry if parry is changed.

YOGZULA
02-24-2017, 07:15 AM
I actually like your suggestion, I don't mind the back and forth so long as it's involving, rather than 2 dudes just waiting to parry one another. There are also other things, such as making chains usable despite not connecting. Make it so you can chain even if the attack is blocked, but make it cost more Stamina. On top of that I'd like to see dodge cost at least SOME stamina, otherwise it'll just be Dodge>Parry if parry is changed.

I'd agree that dodging should cost stamina. Dodging, unlike parry, can be played around in creating a 50/50, which is why I'm not as annoyed about it as a mechanic.

So for instance let's say you're facing a berserker. You begin an overhead heavy. Obviously he's going to dodge. The 50/50 you create is in feinting the attack to go into a guard break to catch him during the dodge, or if he chooses to use his spin chop dodge attack you instead block it and punish him. There are also attacks that track dodging better than others, so if you feinted the overhead heavy and immediately input a side light, you'll catch him during the dodge and do damage.

While dodging is a great defensive mechanic, it's one that can be played around with many different options. Blocking and parrying can only be feinted into, which turns into a back and forth of feinting in an attempt to bait parries. Not very fun.

TTVPappusGaming
02-24-2017, 07:16 AM
taking guaranteed damage out of parry would render most classes obsolete and you don't even notice. The opponent with the better light attacks can just weather the storm, because no matter how hard you try on the slower classes you won't get past the block if the opponent doesn't even go for parries and just needs to drain your stamina.

The problems start with exhaustion. It doesn't matter to be exhausted because the enemy can hardly reach you and what is he gonna do there? Feint into guardbreak? Guardbreak? A light attack?

They have no stamina yet still dodge around - it should be taken out, it should take longer to regenerate.

Dodge attacks are the next problem they can be activated so late that you can't even properly feint your opponent into it since he can confirm wether or not you commited to an attack and then go for it.

The system. is fundamentally flawed and that isn't because parries often give GBs, but because exhaustion is a state that is unuseable, chains being unuseable for the slower chars and so on.

Rump_Buffalo
02-24-2017, 07:21 AM
I'm experiencing now, with For Honor, what I did with Evolve when it came out. A conceptually amazing games, executed brilliantly in so many ways to create something truly unique and innovative - but not without a few major flaws. It's understandable with games of this nature, but it's also important to respond to early criticisms.

One of For Honor's major flaws is the connectivity issues. They aren't always as bad as people make them out to be, but there are a lot of issues especially in 4v4. This is a dead horse though, so I'd like to speak more on the major flaws that people don't seem to be realizing or making enough of a fuss about.

Weak offensive options vs. powerful defensive options. There are a few heroes who have some viable offensive options, such as warden with his shoulder charge mixup, but almost every other hero is left with only their core tools. Blocking, parrying, guard breaking and light attack. Every hero has a unique chain of attacks, but none can actually use them. Most heroes have other tools in their kit, but few are actually useable.

The primary culprit here is parry and deflect as mechanics that reward unblockable damage for defensive play. At high level play nobody wants to attack first. You may attempt to go for guard breaks, but 95% of the time will be met with a counter guard-break. What you're left with is a game of footsies where both players attempt to poke with light attacks to slowly chip eachother down, and feint attacks to try to bait the enemy into getting parried. It's quite boring.

What would For Honor look like if parrying no longer guaranteed a free follow up?

We would have a back and forth style of combat where stamina is the most important resource. Even if players are great at blocking and evading damage and fights are drawn out, at least it will feel action packed and exciting. It will be fun to interact with and fun to watch. As it stands, fights are ALREADY drawn out, just in a much more boring and less fun way.

If parrying didn't guarantee free damage, the back and forth of attack vs. defense would revolve more heavily on stamina. If a player over asserts themself offensively and lets their stamina get low, parrying becomes a great option to fatigue them and go on the offensive. Parrying also continues to serve the purpose of protecting a defender against unblockable attacks. It would remain an important mechanic, just not an outrageously overpowered one that dictates the flow of the game and forces people into turtling and not attacking.

I'm being a broken record about this, as I've made posts about how broken parrying is as a mechanic since alpha 1 and every beta since. I've been met with a lot of people telling me that I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about, and I swear it feels like Evolve all over again. A game where I pointed out some core flaws and everyone told me how wrong and stupid I was, only for the game to die within a month. I loved Evolve and wanted it to be great, and I want the same of For Honor. This is not a difficult thing to fix. Parrying MUST be addressed and nerfed for the survival of this game on any level.

I really hope that even if nobody else agrees, the developers will have seen the same trends as I have and respond to them. It's not something that should be ignored.

I made a suggestion elsewhere to have parry inflict stun instead of granting a free follow-up. This would reward for the parry by giving a tactical advantage rather than a damaging one. It would make turtling less effective overall.

I also REALLY want combos to be allowed to continue even if blocked. Only allow parrying to stop a combo, this also gives reason to parry without giving it offensive strength while allowing offensive pressure to be effectively used for chip damage (give light attacks small amounts of chip but don't let chip deal lethal)

Remove the ability to get a heavy off of GB as well, only allowing lights (this may be less of a problem when GB is fixed)

FailOfHDDVD
02-24-2017, 07:21 AM
I used the third unblockable strike from top but still got parried.
Attack options are pretty weak

Rump_Buffalo
02-24-2017, 07:22 AM
I'm experiencing now, with For Honor, what I did with Evolve when it came out. A conceptually amazing games, executed brilliantly in so many ways to create something truly unique and innovative - but not without a few major flaws. It's understandable with games of this nature, but it's also important to respond to early criticisms.

One of For Honor's major flaws is the connectivity issues. They aren't always as bad as people make them out to be, but there are a lot of issues especially in 4v4. This is a dead horse though, so I'd like to speak more on the major flaws that people don't seem to be realizing or making enough of a fuss about.

Weak offensive options vs. powerful defensive options. There are a few heroes who have some viable offensive options, such as warden with his shoulder charge mixup, but almost every other hero is left with only their core tools. Blocking, parrying, guard breaking and light attack. Every hero has a unique chain of attacks, but none can actually use them. Most heroes have other tools in their kit, but few are actually useable.

The primary culprit here is parry and deflect as mechanics that reward unblockable damage for defensive play. At high level play nobody wants to attack first. You may attempt to go for guard breaks, but 95% of the time will be met with a counter guard-break. What you're left with is a game of footsies where both players attempt to poke with light attacks to slowly chip eachother down, and feint attacks to try to bait the enemy into getting parried. It's quite boring.

What would For Honor look like if parrying no longer guaranteed a free follow up?

We would have a back and forth style of combat where stamina is the most important resource. Even if players are great at blocking and evading damage and fights are drawn out, at least it will feel action packed and exciting. It will be fun to interact with and fun to watch. As it stands, fights are ALREADY drawn out, just in a much more boring and less fun way.

If parrying didn't guarantee free damage, the back and forth of attack vs. defense would revolve more heavily on stamina. If a player over asserts themself offensively and lets their stamina get low, parrying becomes a great option to fatigue them and go on the offensive. Parrying also continues to serve the purpose of protecting a defender against unblockable attacks. It would remain an important mechanic, just not an outrageously overpowered one that dictates the flow of the game and forces people into turtling and not attacking.

I'm being a broken record about this, as I've made posts about how broken parrying is as a mechanic since alpha 1 and every beta since. I've been met with a lot of people telling me that I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about, and I swear it feels like Evolve all over again. A game where I pointed out some core flaws and everyone told me how wrong and stupid I was, only for the game to die within a month. I loved Evolve and wanted it to be great, and I want the same of For Honor. This is not a difficult thing to fix. Parrying MUST be addressed and nerfed for the survival of this game on any level.

I really hope that even if nobody else agrees, the developers will have seen the same trends as I have and respond to them. It's not something that should be ignored.

I made a suggestion elsewhere to have parry inflict stun instead of granting a free follow-up. This would reward for the parry by giving a tactical advantage rather than a damaging one. It would make turtling less effective overall.

I also REALLY want combos to be allowed to continue even if blocked. Only allow parrying to stop a combo, this also gives reason to parry without giving it offensive strength while allowing offensive pressure to be effectively used for chip damage (give light attacks small amounts of chip but don't let chip deal lethal)

Remove the ability to get a heavy off of GB as well, only allowing lights (this may be less of a problem when GB is fixed)

YOGZULA
02-24-2017, 07:25 AM
taking guaranteed damage out of parry would render most classes obsolete and you don't even notice. The opponent with the better light attacks can just weather the storm, because no matter how hard you try on the slower classes you won't get past the block if the opponent doesn't even go for parries and just needs to drain your stamina.

The problems start with exhaustion. It doesn't matter to be exhausted because the enemy can hardly reach you and what is he gonna do there? Feint into guardbreak? Guardbreak? A light attack?

They have no stamina yet still dodge around - it should be taken out, it should take longer to regenerate.

Dodge attacks are the next problem they can be activated so late that you can't even properly feint your opponent into it since he can confirm wether or not you commited to an attack and then go for it.

The system. is fundamentally flawed and that isn't because parries often give GBs, but because exhaustion is a state that is unuseable, chains being unuseable for the slower chars and so on.


I don't take issue with classes who can parry into very minor damage, such as the lawbringer.

Impaling riposte - can be blocked
blind justice -> can be dodged
make way -> can be blocked and dodged
light riposte -> guarenteed light attack follow up, but the damage is less than half a bar.

These are the 4 parry follow up options lawbringer has, and ALL of them are weaker than guard breaking into a heavy, an option that almost every class has. I'm not suggesting that removing the free guard break follow up from parry will make for honor a perfect game, but it will shift the meta to begin balancing attack vs. defense more and make for honor a more FUN game while also making it more balanced. There are more things to be tweaked for certain, but parrying is by far the most flawed mechanic that is negatively affecting the combat dynamic in this game.

YOGZULA
02-24-2017, 07:28 AM
I made a suggestion elsewhere to have parry inflict stun instead of granting a free follow-up. This would reward for the parry by giving a tactical advantage rather than a damaging one. It would make turtling less effective overall.

I also REALLY want combos to be allowed to continue even if blocked. Only allow parrying to stop a combo, this also gives reason to parry without giving it offensive strength while allowing offensive pressure to be effectively used for chip damage (give light attacks small amounts of chip but don't let chip deal lethal)

Remove the ability to get a heavy off of GB as well, only allowing lights (this may be less of a problem when GB is fixed)

Agreed on both points. Combos continuing through block would be nice, or at the very least blocking light attacks should not stagger the attacker so much. Heavy attacks can continue on block, but any decent player is usually parrying them anyway.

Parry stunning the attacker would also be fine by me. It's the free follow up damage I take issue with. Sometimes it's a free ledge throw. Very stupid.

GregoryMcFlint
02-24-2017, 07:28 AM
Make the window for landing a parry much, MUCH smaller. Or reduce the hit-stun on the parry so a last second block is achievable after being parried. Even better yet, both of these combined.

Egotistic_Ez
02-24-2017, 07:34 AM
Parry is op atm, but there's a change I'd like to see trialled first, remove the UI.

Had a mess around on realistic story mode there the other day, the game just feels more fun, you can still parry, but there's none of this easy mode QTE bs.

The_B0G_
02-24-2017, 07:39 AM
Two words, guard break. I fight conquerers and if they turtle I just dodge forward and guard break, free side heavy.

YOGZULA
02-24-2017, 07:51 AM
Parry is op atm, but there's a change I'd like to see trialled first, remove the UI.

Had a mess around on realistic story mode there the other day, the game just feels more fun, you can still parry, but there's none of this easy mode QTE bs.

I thought so too at one point, but after completing the story mode on realistic have to disagree. Certain classes like the vanguards were very easy to block, while assassins felt nearly impossible to consistently block. Classes with jabs like nobushi and valk also felt impossible to read with certain attacks. IT increases the difficult of the game, no doubt, but i'm not sure it's in a good way for multiplayer gameplay.

YOGZULA
02-24-2017, 07:52 AM
Two words, guard break. I fight conquerers and if they turtle I just dodge forward and guard break, free side heavy.

I don't know what MMR you're playing at, but my opponents counter guard break 90+% of the time. So do I. It's really easy to counter guard break, especially when you're playing defensively and trying to block and parry almost exclusively, as counter guardbreaking is the only button you need to worry about pressing.

TCTF_SWAT
02-24-2017, 08:20 AM
The mechanics need a a complete reoork. Again...ubi go look at KI or tekken for examples.

The_B0G_
02-24-2017, 08:28 AM
I don't know what MMR you're playing at, but my opponents counter guard break 90+% of the time. So do I. It's really easy to counter guard break, especially when you're playing defensively and trying to block and parry almost exclusively, as counter guardbreaking is the only button you need to worry about pressing.

Yeah it doesn't work every time but you also can't keep doing it the same way, gb window is really small, I throw a light in there every once in a while or dodge forward and then to the side and either side light attack or GB after the side dodge.

Playing against defensive players is all a head game. If they play super defensively I usually just attack and dodge out of range, eventually they grow impatient and make mistakes.

The_Quieter
02-24-2017, 08:48 AM
The way the game is now... if the two best players faced off against each other it would end in a draw as they spent the entire round trying to get the other one to throw out an attack.

Derity
02-24-2017, 09:04 AM
so basically make peacekeepers even more impossible to kill lol

Zadawn
02-24-2017, 09:25 AM
The seer has spoken. Everybody lick his palm fast.

DrExtrem
02-24-2017, 09:30 AM
Two words, guard break. I fight conquerers and if they turtle I just dodge forward and guard break, free side heavy.

I say one word - console.

It is usually harder on console to counter guard break, because the counter window is shorter, than reaction time + thumb movement. To successfully counter GB on console, you either need a custom controller and you should be able to see the GB, before the indicator pops up.


There are some nice suggestions floating around.

I will answer in full later.

Hegemon_
02-24-2017, 09:33 AM
OP you are right. Yesterday I have discovered something that blew my mind. It appears that gb after parry is UNCOUNTERABLE! Why on earth we have an uncounterable gb in this game? It leads to straight dmg. Just wait for parry, then gb which cannot by countered and boom free heavy. Boring. If this can be done in 100% with no skill why not let parry do the dmg? Just autodamage on successful parry and then reset. Because that's how it works right now.

Would it be fixed if there were no uncounterable guard breaks?

WheepingSong
02-24-2017, 09:51 AM
OP you are right. Yesterday I have discovered something that blew my mind. It appears that gb after parry is UNCOUNTERABLE! Why on earth we have an uncounterable gb in this game? It leads to straight dmg. Just wait for parry, then gb which cannot by countered and boom free heavy. Boring. If this can be done in 100% with no skill why not let parry do the dmg? Just autodamage on successful parry and then reset. Because that's how it works right now.

Would it be fixed if there were no uncounterable guard breaks?

This has been known since closed beta. However, you guys seem to be missing the point here. Having the uncounterable GB weakens turteling in which we all agree on that this game rewards defensive play.

It's easy to bait a parry from the opponent. Just feint a heavy and your enemy will try to parry it with a heavy which can be parried by yourself. Feinting is actually a big thing in this game. Current meta except from high lvl players just havent seen this yet.

Combat mechanics are fine except for the GB which will be changed. We should be more worried about the gear stats...

ZeBrutal
02-24-2017, 09:58 AM
This has been known since closed beta. However, you guys seem to be missing the point here. Having the uncounterable GB weakens turteling in which we all agree on that this game rewards defensive play.

It's easy to bait a parry from the opponent. Just feint a heavy and your enemy will try to parry it with a heavy which can be parried by yourself. Feinting is actually a big thing in this game. Current meta except from high lvl players just havent seen this yet.

Combat mechanics are fine except for the GB which will be changed. We should be more worried about the gear stats...

I actually agree that gear stats should come first for balancing as to not turn away every single non hardcore / new player from here on out. That is followed VERY closely by mixing up the hyper defense meta the game has settled on in the upper bracket though for sure. However.. If you think at said upper bracket everyone falls for a feint every time, your not playing in that upper bracket and need to reevaluate your response. A smart player can see that you feinted and feint there failed attempt to parry and rinse repeat till the ends of the earth.

CaptainPwnet
02-24-2017, 09:59 AM
This has been known since closed beta. However, you guys seem to be missing the point here. Having the uncounterable GB weakens turteling in which we all agree on that this game rewards defensive play.

It's easy to bait a parry from the opponent. Just feint a heavy and your enemy will try to parry it with a heavy which can be parried by yourself. Feinting is actually a big thing in this game. Current meta except from high lvl players just havent seen this yet.

Combat mechanics are fine except for the GB which will be changed. We should be more worried about the gear stats...

While I agree gear stats are probably the bigger issue right now. The combat mechanics are not fine, you can easily also feint parry attempts. So what you often get between 2 skilled players is just feinting back and forth for a few seconds until some decides to do something else or misses a feint and gets parried. Its kind of silly really.

Gear stats, specifically the revenge ones, need to be removed or reworked or a no gear stats variant for all game modes needs to be implemented to keep this game from dieing in the short term. But combat mechanics balance needs to be reworked immediately after to keep it from dieing in the long term.

Aarpian
02-24-2017, 10:02 AM
I agree that defence is too strong in general, but they'd certainly need to rebalance after such changes (I'm looking at you, PK).

You'll notice that all the top-tier characters are ones who can bypass the parry mechanic, whether that be through unparriables (Conq, Warlord, Warden, Shugoki), or by having attacks that are too fast to parry (Warden, PK).
Characters who rely on actually getting a hit through defence like Kensei, Raider or Lawbringer are noticeably worse because they continually expose themselves to huge risk.

I still want to see chip damage on heavies and more plus-on-block stuff, rather than keeping it in Peacekeeper's grubby little overpowered hands.

DrExtrem
02-24-2017, 10:06 AM
OP you are right. Yesterday I have discovered something that blew my mind. It appears that gb after parry is UNCOUNTERABLE! Why on earth we have an uncounterable gb in this game? It leads to straight dmg. Just wait for parry, then gb which cannot by countered and boom free heavy. Boring. If this can be done in 100% with no skill why not let parry do the dmg? Just autodamage on successful parry and then reset. Because that's how it works right now.

Would it be fixed if there were no uncounterable guard breaks?

Sadly, this uncounterable GB is needed in botmatches, because it is on if the few chances to punish a bot and their perfect (and sometimes cheated) defense.

That's a major flaw of the system. Right now, not even bot one can be hit with normal strikes, because they autoblock everything. Bot one can only be beaten, be using GBs, unblockables and parru-punish. Bot two wil already counter GB almost perfectly, dodge a very big amount of your unblockable strikes and almost all of your charges. Parry-punish is the last reliable source - except, that even they don't seem to work sometimes - especially in domination. My guess is, that gear stats play a role in this.

DJ_Masterson
02-24-2017, 10:39 AM
What would For Honor look like if parrying no longer guaranteed a free follow up?

I don't have a problem with that so much as the fact that parrying is too easy to do. If it was harder, I'd be happy with free follow-ups. I mean, I play a Lawbringer, who can only gaurantee follow-ups after parrying light attacks, which is difficult, or if he uses his high-light after a heavy parry, which does *** damage and is his only gauranteed counter after a heavy-parry. Lawbringer has such terrible follow-up ability it's amazing he's called a counterattack class.

Some suggestion I have for fixing this "Defensive Meta" are as follows,

- Guarding should NOT interrupt combos. That should be left to parrying.
- Successful combos should deal chip damage.
- Guarding should cost stamina (based on the attack type: light vs heavy). It should cost more stamina than the attacks cost to perform, to discourage a turtle meta.
- Guarding should continue to completely nullify the damage from Light Attacks. But when you're out of stamina, light attacks should start doing chip damage through your guard.
- Heavy attacks should do chip damage through your guard. And when out of stamina, heavy attacks will do MORE chip damage and knock you down.
- Dodging should also cost stamina, and should not be able to be used at all when stamina runs out.
- The invincible-frames on side-dodges going through side attacks needs to be shortened. It's ridiculous. #noskillz
- On that note, parry-timing needs to be a bit more difficult. Practically everyone and their grandma can do it. #noskillz
- Parries should only guarantee follow-ups after parrying light attacks. Otherwise their primary use would be to interrupt combos for a turnaround, and an alternative method to avoid heavy-attack damage.

Some class-specific tweaks. Note, I don't have suggestions for all of them, just some that I play often.

- Heroes who's normal guard naturally interrupts combos (ex. Conquerer) should no longer have this property. Instead, they ignore chip damage from all sources until their stamina runs out.
- Lawbringer's sideheavies after a parry should simply be more AN MORTEM INIMICUS (the fiery unblockable attack). The rhino charge is only good for cliffdropping and Lawbringer is already plenty good at that without it. So let's do like he does with his many victims, and drop it. With above changes making side-dodges and parrying much harder to do, I can easily excuse the slowness of these attacks, although I'd still like to see him also get an attack speed buff.
- Lawbringer needs a light-light-light combo. Or at least a light-light-heavy. Just something that lets him chain light attacks. How is such a versatile weapon so limited in how it can chain attacks?

Kawira1
02-24-2017, 10:40 AM
I think there should be also something like block meter (similiar to Street Fighter) where if you defend too much then it drops to 0 and you can't block for few seconds. Also NO parrying lights and like you mentioned - no free dmg from parry. This would make duels MUCH more intense.

DrExtrem
02-24-2017, 10:43 AM
@ Masterson

Your proposed changes would tip the balance even further in favour of fast attacking, mobile heroes, like the assassins.

Aarpian
02-24-2017, 10:47 AM
@ Masterson

Your proposed changes would tip the balance even further in favour of fast attacking, mobile heroes, like the assassins.

True, but at least they can be number-tweaked afterwards to balance their strength.
Personally I don't like the idea of stamina cost on defence since it will also neuter aggression (I can't attack for too long because when I have to defend I'll need the stamina), and will limit the counter-attacking opportunities of the guy who's just been taking a beating.

DJ_Masterson
02-24-2017, 10:50 AM
@ Masterson

Your proposed changes would tip the balance even further in favour of fast attacking, mobile heroes, like the assassins.

True, but at least they can be number-tweaked afterwards to balance their strength.Exactly.

Furthermore with changes adding a stamina cost to dodging, assassins will tire out more quickly than usual since a lot of their gameplay involves spamming dodges.

Wouldn't you like that?

Wouldn't you like For Honor without flighty bastards just zig-zagging all over the place?


Personally I don't like the idea of stamina cost on defence since it will also neuter aggression (I can't attack for too long because when I have to defend I'll need the stamina), and will limit the counter-attacking opportunities of the guy who's just been taking a beating.

All it means is that neither party will be able to be fully aggressive or fully defensive. There will be more short breaks between the clashing. It will become a game of proper stamina management and manipulation.

ZeBrutal
02-24-2017, 11:05 AM
I don't have a problem with that so much as the fact that parrying is too easy to do. If it was harder, I'd be happy with free follow-ups. I mean, I play a Lawbringer, who can only gaurantee follow-ups after parrying light attacks, which is difficult, or if he uses his high-light after a heavy parry, which does *** damage and is his only gauranteed counter after a heavy-parry. Lawbringer has such terrible follow-up ability it's amazing he's called a counterattack class.

Some suggestion I have for fixing this "Defensive Meta" are as follows,

- Guarding should NOT interrupt combos. That should be left to parrying.
- Successful combos should deal chip damage.
- Guarding should cost stamina (based on the attack type: light vs heavy). It should cost more stamina than the attacks cost to perform, to discourage a turtle meta.
- Guarding should continue to completely nullify the damage from Light Attacks. But when you're out of stamina, light attacks should start doing chip damage through your guard.
- Heavy attacks should do chip damage through your guard. And when out of stamina, heavy attacks will do MORE chip damage and knock you down.
- Dodging should also cost stamina, and should not be able to be used at all when stamina runs out.
- The invincible-frames on side-dodges going through side attacks needs to be shortened. It's ridiculous. #noskillz
- On that note, parry-timing needs to be a bit more difficult. Practically everyone and their grandma can do it. #noskillz
- Parries should only guarantee follow-ups after parrying light attacks. Otherwise their primary use would be to interrupt combos for a turnaround, and an alternative method to avoid heavy-attack damage.

Some class-specific tweaks. Note, I don't have suggestions for all of them, just some that I play often.

- Heroes who's normal guard naturally interrupts combos (ex. Conquerer) should no longer have this property. Instead, they ignore chip damage from all sources until their stamina runs out.
- Lawbringer's sideheavies after a parry should simply be more AN MORTEM INIMICUS (the fiery unblockable attack). The rhino charge is only good for cliffdropping and Lawbringer is already plenty good at that without it. So let's do like he does with his many victims, and drop it. With above changes making side-dodges and parrying much harder to do, I can easily excuse the slowness of these attacks, although I'd still like to see him also get an attack speed buff.
- Lawbringer needs a light-light-light combo. Or at least a light-light-heavy. Just something that lets him chain light attacks. How is such a versatile weapon so limited in how it can chain attacks?

Most of these seem like reasonable suggestions... They would have to be extremely careful with just how much the stamina depletion your suggesting goes. The way you word this now it basically sounds like once your out of stamina you might as well be out of health though. I don't think blocked heavies when out of stamina should knock you on the ground either.. Unless I read it wrong. Constantly being out of stamina and constantly laying on the ground are both anti-fun especially if it became constant. I know you can parry those heavies while out of stamina to avoid getting knocked down but they cant 100% cater to superb reflex players without killing the game, especially if they make the parry window harder. Which also I'm not sure the parry window should be shorter.. Even the slightest bit of latency between 2 players already artificially inflates parrying difficulty.

The Lawbringer stuff.. I honestly think they should pretty much just rework 80% of his kit entirely, not just the charge spike. As it stands in 4v4s most people pick him to run around and troll people off ledges while they are distracted and he's just all around annoying to fight in a duel against someone competent with him even if not entirely effective. I mean seriously it's like they designed him to just be annoying and that's it.

CaptainPwnet
02-24-2017, 11:07 AM
I don't have a problem with that so much as the fact that parrying is too easy to do. If it was harder, I'd be happy with free follow-ups. I mean, I play a Lawbringer, who can only gaurantee follow-ups after parrying light attacks, which is difficult, or if he uses his high-light after a heavy parry, which does *** damage and is his only gauranteed counter after a heavy-parry. Lawbringer has such terrible follow-up ability it's amazing he's called a counterattack class.

Some suggestion I have for fixing this "Defensive Meta" are as follows,

- Guarding should NOT interrupt combos. That should be left to parrying.
- Successful combos should deal chip damage.
- Guarding should cost stamina (based on the attack type: light vs heavy). It should cost more stamina than the attacks cost to perform, to discourage a turtle meta.
- Guarding should continue to completely nullify the damage from Light Attacks. But when you're out of stamina, light attacks should start doing chip damage through your guard.
- Heavy attacks should do chip damage through your guard. And when out of stamina, heavy attacks will do MORE chip damage and knock you down.
- Dodging should also cost stamina, and should not be able to be used at all when stamina runs out.
- The invincible-frames on side-dodges going through side attacks needs to be shortened. It's ridiculous. #noskillz
- On that note, parry-timing needs to be a bit more difficult. Practically everyone and their grandma can do it. #noskillz
- Parries should only guarantee follow-ups after parrying light attacks. Otherwise their primary use would be to interrupt combos for a turnaround, and an alternative method to avoid heavy-attack damage.

Some class-specific tweaks. Note, I don't have suggestions for all of them, just some that I play often.

- Heroes who's normal guard naturally interrupts combos (ex. Conquerer) should no longer have this property. Instead, they ignore chip damage from all sources until their stamina runs out.
- Lawbringer's sideheavies after a parry should simply be more AN MORTEM INIMICUS (the fiery unblockable attack). The rhino charge is only good for cliffdropping and Lawbringer is already plenty good at that without it. So let's do like he does with his many victims, and drop it. With above changes making side-dodges and parrying much harder to do, I can easily excuse the slowness of these attacks, although I'd still like to see him also get an attack speed buff.
- Lawbringer needs a light-light-light combo. Or at least a light-light-heavy. Just something that lets him chain light attacks. How is such a versatile weapon so limited in how it can chain attacks?

I agree with and suggested many of your ideas during the tests even. But the one thing that can not be done is stamina cost for blocking and dodging. Otherwise once a person is out of stamina, which can happen just from things like headbutt or shield bash spam. Then you will be locked in an infinite state of exhaustion. Same goes for dodging whiole out of stamina, also not a good idea cause there is no other way to avoid things like shoulderbash,headbutt, shield bash and so on so forth.

DJ_Masterson
02-24-2017, 11:11 AM
Most of these seem like reasonable suggestions... They would have to be extremely careful with just how much the stamina depletion your suggesting goes. The way you word this now it basically sounds like once your out of stamina you might as well be out of health though. I don't think blocked heavies when out of stamina should knock you on the ground either.. Unless I read it wrong. Constantly being out of stamina and constantly laying on the ground are both anti-fun especially if it became constant. I know you can parry those heavies while out of stamina to avoid getting knocked down but they cant 100% cater to superb reflex players without killing the game, especially if they make the parry window harder. Which also I'm not sure the parry window should be shorter.. Even the slightest bit of latency between 2 players already artificially inflates parrying difficulty.

The Lawbringer stuff.. I honestly think they should pretty much just rework 80% of his kit entirely, not just the charge spike. As it stands in 4v4s most people pick him to run around and troll people off ledges while they are distracted and he's just all around annoying to fight in a duel against someone competent with him even if not entirely effective. I mean seriously it's like they designed him to just be annoying and that's it.

I guess removing the ability to dodge while out of stamina does make it too punishing, but...

My suggestions are working under the idea that Ubisoft will adjust all stamina values so that it's not too easy to run out unless you're just super wild and bad at managing it. I suppose I should add that as another suggestion? I still think it's fair to be punishable once you run out of stamina. I can't tell you how many times a guy with no stamina has simply run away and clumsy old Lawbringer can't do a damn thing about it because his clunky armor doesn't let him give chase.

If you run out of stamina right in someone's face you should absolutely get wrecked for it. I believe and stand by that 100%, even as a guy who frequently lets his stamina go grey right in his enemy's face. I... I deserve that. lol

DJ_Masterson
02-24-2017, 11:13 AM
I agree with and suggested many of your ideas during the tests even. But the one thing that can not be done is stamina cost for blocking and dodging. Otherwise once a person is out of stamina, which can happen just from things like headbutt or shield bash spam. Then you will be locked in an infinite state of exhaustion. Same goes for dodging whiole out of stamina, also not a good idea cause there is no other way to avoid things like shoulderbash,headbutt, shield bash and so on so forth.

THAT'S a fair point. Perhaps blocking while out of stamina doesn't consume stamina, in exchange for it's reduced effectiveness. I'd have no problem adding that to my list.

But I absolutely do not want people to be able to dodge while out of stamina. At the very least, it should be harder!

YOGZULA
02-24-2017, 11:21 AM
what's worse than parrying is that for some characters, being blocked on a light attack leads into a free guard break. when your light attack isn't safe, the hero might as well not exist.

ZeBrutal
02-24-2017, 11:23 AM
I guess removing the ability to dodge while out of stamina does make it too punishing, but...

My suggestions are working under the idea that Ubisoft will adjust all stamina values so that it's not too easy to run out unless you're just super wild and bad at managing it. I suppose I should add that as another suggestion? I still think it's fair to be punishable once you run out of stamina. I can't tell you how many times a guy with no stamina has simply run away and clumsy old Lawbringer can't do a damn thing about it because his clunky armor doesn't let him give chase.

If you run out of stamina right in someone's face you should absolutely get wrecked for it. I believe and stand by that 100%, even as a guy who frequently lets his stamina go grey right in his enemy's face. I... I deserve that. lol

Yeah I understand what you mean. That's why I said they would need to be real careful with it and could require quite a bit of reviewing to get it just right considering every hero also uses different levels of stamina compared to others. I do for sure agree that people being out of stamina should be a bit more punishable though, but I don't really have any ideas of my own to help make it so. As long as by them absolutely getting "wrecked" you don't mean outright 100% death then I agree for sure. I wouldn't ever want the meta to just swing to any class that has good stamina drains cause it really would be anti-fun in my humble opinion.

I feel you on making that mistake yourself being that your a Lawbringer and all. Class is so absurdly clunky unlike any other and needs so much attention it's unreal. I don't know how you do it.

DJ_Masterson
02-24-2017, 11:27 AM
Yeah I understand what you mean. That's why I said they would need to be real careful with it and could require quite a bit of reviewing to get it just right considering every hero also uses different levels of stamina compared to others. I do for sure agree that people being out of stamina should be a bit more punishable though, but I don't really have any ideas of my own to help make it so. As long as by them absolutely getting "wrecked" you don't mean outright 100% death then I agree for sure. I wouldn't ever want the meta to just swing to any class that has good stamina drains cause it really would be anti-fun in my humble opinion.Yeah Ubisoft would also need to carefully adjust how characters who can attack your stamina directly go about doing that.

I think that stamina would recover a bit more quickly than it currently does, in exchange for how feeble it leaves you afterward. You can still guard, but you get more chip-damage from those heavy attacks. I could remove the part about them knocking you down, though. Perhaps extra chip damage is bad enough.


I feel you on making that mistake yourself being that your a Lawbringer and all. Class is so absurdly clunky unlike any other and needs so much attention it's unreal. I don't know how you do it.I do it by not playing PvP as Lawbringer. lol

Honestly, I mostly stick to vs AI modes. Thankfully the AI doesn't COMPLETELY abuse TurtleMeta.

Except for the damn Conqbots, but they're still weak to GuardBreaks and grabs, so that's something.

Aarpian
02-24-2017, 11:28 AM
THAT'S a fair point. Perhaps blocking while out of stamina doesn't consume stamina, in exchange for it's reduced effectiveness. I'd have no problem adding that to my list.

But I absolutely do not want people to be able to dodge while out of stamina. At the very least, it should be harder!

If people can't dodge while out of stamina you've just immediately made Conqueror, Warlord and Warden god tier.

Gubermensch
02-24-2017, 11:32 AM
Great job at describing a problem, poor job at proposing a solution.

A simple fix to this problem imo, larger chip damage for blocked hits. A blocked hit should still do 33-50% of the damage of an attack, where a parry would result in zero damage and the same mechanic currently in play. This significantly increases the incentive to attack and the amount of parrying players will attempt, and therefore the parry baiting and punishes (ie. Feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, interrupt with an uncounterable gb). Boom, equilibrium.

GTCSeventhSon
02-24-2017, 11:33 AM
It's actually a simple fix to balance the system out. Make it so heavy attacks can't be parried and open up the parry window on light attacks a bit. This creates a more balanced dynamic:

Block < Unblockable
Unblockable < Light attack
Light attack < Parry
Parry < heavy attack
heavy attack < block

Simultaneously make it harder to parry and create a counter to parrying. This also opens the doors to add parrying to certain moves and give classes the ability to parry heavies if they want to make the class more parry heavy, which is what I'd suggest they do with the Lawbringer.

In addition to this change, I think they should take out revenge mode stats and add more class based stats. IE Nobushi gets a bleed stat, zerker gets a block penetration stat, Conqueror can get a block speed stat. Those are jsut off the top of the head, point is revenge didn't need ways to buff it, and those slots would be better served increasing the stats the class embodies.

ZeBrutal
02-24-2017, 11:37 AM
what's worse than parrying is that for some characters, being blocked on a light attack leads into a free guard break. when your light attack isn't safe, the hero might as well not exist.

They are already addressing this issue in the next update, but they announced that well over a week ago and here we are still waiting sadly. I actually main Berserker AND Valk is my second so this update cant come soon enough for me. Good quality of life changes to the both of em.


If people can't dodge while out of stamina you've just immediately made Conqueror, Warlord and Warden god tier.

This is true... It's kind of a double edged sword to leave it as is or make it so you cant. I'm not sure if there even is a common ground on the dash out of stamina issue they could achieve.

DJ_Masterson
02-24-2017, 11:39 AM
If people can't dodge while out of stamina you've just immediately made Conqueror, Warlord and Warden god tier.
That's fair. Then instead, I'd propose removing I-frames from dodges while stamina is in the gray. That way people at least can roll away, but not do silly things like slide through my unblockables.

Aarpian
02-24-2017, 11:41 AM
They are already addressing this issue in the next update, but they announced that well over a week ago and here we are still waiting sadly. I actually main Berserker AND Valk is my second so this update cant come soon enough for me. Good quality of life changes to the both of em.



This is true... It's kind of a double edged sword to leave it as is or make it so you cant. I'm not sure if there even is a common ground on the dash out of stamina issue they could achieve.

The only problems with dodging while out of stamina are how effective back-dashing is, specifically on the PK who will break all tracking and recover immediately after travelling 10ft at light speed.

ZeBrutal
02-24-2017, 11:50 AM
The only problems with dodging while out of stamina are how effective back-dashing is, specifically on the PK who will break all tracking and recover immediately after travelling 10ft at light speed.

Yeah I feel you overall. I think DJ just above you has a decent enough suggestion. Dashing in general is just crazy effective with or without stamina, especially on Assassins like the PK as you just pointed out. I cant imagine how stressful it is for the Devs to think of workable solutions to so many of these things being discussed here. I'm glad I'm not in their shoes. Such a fine line to walk between balanced and unbalanced in a game like this. It's either make or break with no in between far as I can tell.

On a lighter note I'm glad we have all stayed very constructive on here unlike so many other threads. Keep the suggestions flowing everyone!

Aarpian
02-24-2017, 11:53 AM
Yeah I feel you overall. I think DJ just above you has a decent enough suggestion. Dashing in general is just crazy effective with or without stamina, especially on Assassins like the PK as you just pointed out. I cant imagine how stressful it is for the Devs to think of workable solutions to so many of these things being discussed here. I'm glad I'm not in their shoes. Such a fine line to walk between balanced and unbalanced in a game like this. It's either make or break with no in between far as I can tell.

On a lighter note I'm glad we have all stayed very constructive on here unlike so many other threads. Keep the suggestions flowing everyone!

Stressful? I do hope you're joking. If they'd listened to the better players in the community this game would have been balanced at released.

They're straight-up incompetent.

ZeBrutal
02-24-2017, 12:16 PM
Stressful? I do hope you're joking. If they'd listened to the better players in the community this game would have been balanced at released.

They're straight-up incompetent.

Fair enough.. However if you think balancing any competitive game with tons of complex systems in place and making it all work 100% without flaw isn't stressful work then you probably should never consider getting into game development cause you would be very disappointed at how wrong you are. Double that if you want to appease both the hardcore and casual crowd.

DrExtrem
02-24-2017, 12:20 PM
In short - the system right now is a mess and needs a serious overhaul.

Stamina cost on defense is a good idea but it would lead to serious problems, once you are out of stamina. Regaining stamina would be impossible, because a new attack would drain and set the var back again, resulting in a vortex of being oos (out of stamina).
Additionally, it would make every hero with stamina burn god tier. The Valkyrie would be able to drain your stamina a d keep you in that state, until you are dead.

Making the parry window of heavy attacks even smaller (0.1 seconds atm), would kill counter attacks. In combination with not being able to punish parried strikes, heavy attacks would be obsolete. It is already very difficult to land a heavy strike outside of a parry or gb. Heavy attacks would be reduced to be a chipping damage deliverer - boring.
Who would benefit from all those changes? Mobile and fast attackers - assassins + nobushi. The ones, that already rule the meta.

Next problem is dodging - it is easier and equally tanky, as parrying. And it does not cost stamina and can be done while being oos without being less effective. The dodging mechanics would need an overhaul as well. From dash distance, over attacks to resource management. My favourite would be a dash-meter, just like the one in titanfall. Tanks get one dash bar, vanguards two and assassins three. One dash costs one bar and certain attacks cost between one and two bars + stamina. This would stop the inflationary spam of assassins and the limitless evasion of strikes.

DJ_Masterson
02-24-2017, 08:47 PM
In short - the system right now is a mess and needs a serious overhaul.

Stamina cost on defense is a good idea but it would lead to serious problems, once you are out of stamina. Regaining stamina would be impossible, because a new attack would drain and set the var back again, resulting in a vortex of being oos (out of stamina).
Additionally, it would make every hero with stamina burn god tier. The Valkyrie would be able to drain your stamina a d keep you in that state, until you are dead.A simple solution to that (as I've mentioned before), would be to have the stamina cost on guarding removed when in recovery. This would make up for things like the increased chip damage I mentioned.

Heroes that can drain your stamina, however, are problematic even currently.Once played Orochi vs a GOOD Raider inside a temple. As long as there was a wall nearby he had no problem keeping me in the gray zone for minutes on end. Ubisoft needs to have a look at these guys either way.


Making the parry window of heavy attacks even smaller (0.1 seconds atm), would kill counter attacks. In combination with not being able to punish parried strikes, heavy attacks would be obsolete. It is already very difficult to land a heavy strike outside of a parry or gb. Heavy attacks would be reduced to be a chipping damage deliverer - boring.
Who would benefit from all those changes? Mobile and fast attackers - assassins + nobushi. The ones, that already rule the meta.Do they? It seems to me guys like the Conquerer and the Warlord currently rule the meta, that meta being "whoever attacks first is f***ed", but I digress.

Having stamina cost on guarding AND dodging puts more pressure on assassins, who rely on dodges so heavily already, making it more likely they will NOT jump around like an angry bean. Additional constraints could include Assassins being less capable of chip damage than other classes, since their weapons are lighter and less powerful overall.


Next problem is dodging - it is easier and equally tanky, as parrying. And it does not cost stamina and can be done while being oos without being less effective. The dodging mechanics would need an overhaul as well. From dash distance, over attacks to resource management. My favourite would be a dash-meter, just like the one in titanfall. Tanks get one dash bar, vanguards two and assassins three. One dash costs one bar and certain attacks cost between one and two bars + stamina. This would stop the inflationary spam of assassins and the limitless evasion of strikes.That sounds good in theory but who ever actually NEEDS 3 whole dashes in a row to get the job done? It seems like 1, MAYBE 2 for the assassins would get the job done just fine.

On that note what I find most ridiculous about dashing is how EASY it is to line up the i-frames with the incoming attacks. Side-dodging through attacks should NOT be that easy. The window on that needs to be closed, like with parries.

Vordred
02-24-2017, 09:11 PM
my only real issue is dodging, mainly the Assassins. it way to rewarding for how easy it is to to.

doesn't matter what attack i throw out, can be easily dodge in any direction with no timing needed. and is rewarded with guaranteed damage. even if i land the first hit of my combo and throw out the second attack in the chain, it can be again easily dodged and guaranties them damage.

if i try and ware down their stamina, then can still dodge just as easily as before or can just back dash and stay out of my way the whole time, when out of stamina the dodge should be slow and laboured like everything else is. dodging should cost more stam in general too.

now from playing an assassin, i don't see the point of deflect, on the PK why would i risk doing the deflect? it's risky and all i get for it is a guaranteed bleed, but if i just dodge the attack i get a guaranteed Heavy and then apply a bleed follow up on it. so its way easy and i get the bleed and damage, over just the bleed from deflect.

i don't think any class should be able to do dodge attacks, if you want guaranteed damage of a dodge you should have to get a deflect, just like if you want Guaranteed damage of a Block, you have to Parry.

i also think if you dodge into a side strike you should get hit, unless you get a deflect, dashing back can be you'r always safe option.

if it wasn't for the current Dodging mechanic, i would be way more aggressive, but currently dodge is to easy and to punishing. plus it prevents you from throwing out any real combo's.

YOGZULA
02-24-2017, 11:31 PM
Great job at describing a problem, poor job at proposing a solution.

A simple fix to this problem imo, larger chip damage for blocked hits. A blocked hit should still do 33-50% of the damage of an attack, where a parry would result in zero damage and the same mechanic currently in play. This significantly increases the incentive to attack and the amount of parrying players will attempt, and therefore the parry baiting and punishes (ie. Feint attack to bait parry, anticipate feinted parry, interrupt with an uncounterable gb). Boom, equilibrium.

You've failed to consider low level play, where if this change were to go live, would become heavily imbalanced. Low level players already thrive off of spamming attacks as reaction times are lesser and unable to block, and especially unable to parry. Balancing the game for high level play should be targeted toward a high level defensive mechanic. That is parrying.

I feel like a lot of people have gotten used to the game, or have learned to enjoy defensive play, or feel a sense of satisfaction when they land a parry that they don't want it to become less powerful an option. I honestly think it's indefensible that parry is overpowered in its current state, yet so many people think the game would be worse off if it wasn't? That's been expressed, at least, but a good argument in support of it has not been

Gubermensch
02-25-2017, 04:40 AM
You're literally suggesting to dumb down the game. Who cares about the lower skilled players....

Fairfight2015
02-25-2017, 04:58 AM
I'm experiencing now, with For Honor, what I did with Evolve when it came out. A conceptually amazing games, executed brilliantly in so many ways to create something truly unique and innovative - but not without a few major flaws. It's understandable with games of this nature, but it's also important to respond to early criticisms.

One of For Honor's major flaws is the connectivity issues. They aren't always as bad as people make them out to be, but there are a lot of issues especially in 4v4. This is a dead horse though, so I'd like to speak more on the major flaws that people don't seem to be realizing or making enough of a fuss about.

Weak offensive options vs. powerful defensive options. There are a few heroes who have some viable offensive options, such as warden with his shoulder charge mixup, but almost every other hero is left with only their core tools. Blocking, parrying, guard breaking and light attack. Every hero has a unique chain of attacks, but none can actually use them. Most heroes have other tools in their kit, but few are actually useable.

The primary culprit here is parry and deflect as mechanics that reward unblockable damage for defensive play. At high level play nobody wants to attack first. You may attempt to go for guard breaks, but 95% of the time will be met with a counter guard-break. What you're left with is a game of footsies where both players attempt to poke with light attacks to slowly chip eachother down, and feint attacks to try to bait the enemy into getting parried. It's quite boring.

What would For Honor look like if parrying no longer guaranteed a free follow up?

We would have a back and forth style of combat where stamina is the most important resource. Even if players are great at blocking and evading damage and fights are drawn out, at least it will feel action packed and exciting. It will be fun to interact with and fun to watch. As it stands, fights are ALREADY drawn out, just in a much more boring and less fun way.

If parrying didn't guarantee free damage, the back and forth of attack vs. defense would revolve more heavily on stamina. If a player over asserts themself offensively and lets their stamina get low, parrying becomes a great option to fatigue them and go on the offensive. Parrying also continues to serve the purpose of protecting a defender against unblockable attacks. It would remain an important mechanic, just not an outrageously overpowered one that dictates the flow of the game and forces people into turtling and not attacking.

I'm being a broken record about this, as I've made posts about how broken parrying is as a mechanic since alpha 1 and every beta since. I've been met with a lot of people telling me that I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about, and I swear it feels like Evolve all over again. A game where I pointed out some core flaws and everyone told me how wrong and stupid I was, only for the game to die within a month. I loved Evolve and wanted it to be great, and I want the same of For Honor. This is not a difficult thing to fix. Parrying MUST be addressed and nerfed for the survival of this game on any level.

I really hope that even if nobody else agrees, the developers will have seen the same trends as I have and respond to them. It's not something that should be ignored.

i posted about weak attack and strong defence on forum complaining how easy it is to react to moves and punish whoever attack first however i really think guard break interrupt is the culprit here not parrying

hear me out for a second
1) we literally have 4 moves to counter a single guard break(which is the core kit for most classes) 4 moves being (light attack) (heavy attack) (dash) (GUARD BREAK INTERRUPT)
2) guard break interrupt is extremely easy to pull off im by no means a perfect players yet i can guard break interrupt 99% of the time (and opponent cannot do anything against me without me parrying) the timing is so slow now even a 80 year old man can pull it off so theres no mind game played people can just sit there and react to moves
3)remove guard break interrupt will punish people who solely react to moves and play mind games they will have to decide if its a guard break or an attack and whoever wins the mind game can punish the loser a bit
4) or the guard break/ guard break interrupt mechanism need a rework
5) EDIT: sure there are feints but it also rely on your opponent being impatient and with average reactions u can cancel/ react to the reint

On a side note: legendary gear revenge mode in 4v4s are also extremely overpowered is it because the mechanism is bad? not really its debatable
its the guard break interrupt again how is a group of people suppose to kill a player when the solo player can just sit there block and dash away from unblockables + waiting for guard break interrupt?(block twice prob revenge mode up) sure maybe a guard break and have one of your teammate charge him off cliff/ heavy attack at perfect timing but thats way too hard to pull off and unfair when u have man advantage on your side already

this game is going to die just like r6 not because of cheaters ( sure there are blatant cheaters but i only see one in every 50 matches so i dont care) but because of flawed game mechanism
every single game now is a waiting game especially at high level where we just wait sometimes time even run out

Rump_Buffalo
02-26-2017, 12:39 AM
i posted about weak attack and strong defence on forum complaining how easy it is to react to moves and punish whoever attack first however i really think guard break interrupt is the culprit here not parrying

hear me out for a second
1) we literally have 4 moves to counter a single guard break(which is the core kit for most classes) 4 moves being (light attack) (heavy attack) (dash) (GUARD BREAK INTERRUPT)
2) guard break interrupt is extremely easy to pull off im by no means a perfect players yet i can guard break interrupt 99% of the time (and opponent cannot do anything against me without me parrying) the timing is so slow now even a 80 year old man can pull it off so theres no mind game played people can just sit there and react to moves
3)remove guard break interrupt will punish people who solely react to moves and play mind games they will have to decide if its a guard break or an attack and whoever wins the mind game can punish the loser a bit
4) or the guard break/ guard break interrupt mechanism need a rework
5) EDIT: sure there are feints but it also rely on your opponent being impatient and with average reactions u can cancel/ react to the reint

On a side note: legendary gear revenge mode in 4v4s are also extremely overpowered is it because the mechanism is bad? not really its debatable
its the guard break interrupt again how is a group of people suppose to kill a player when the solo player can just sit there block and dash away from unblockables + waiting for guard break interrupt?(block twice prob revenge mode up) sure maybe a guard break and have one of your teammate charge him off cliff/ heavy attack at perfect timing but thats way too hard to pull off and unfair when u have man advantage on your side already

this game is going to die just like r6 not because of cheaters ( sure there are blatant cheaters but i only see one in every 50 matches so i dont care) but because of flawed game mechanism
every single game now is a waiting game especially at high level where we just wait sometimes time even run out

So real quick... rb6 isn't dead... it's player base has tripled since release and is holding strong. Now, that aside...

I'm going to say this again because I think these could fix our problems

Guard Break: The incoming reversion is a good thing. I think the next thing to do is make heavies unavailable off GB by shortening the frame advantage
Parry: Stuns the enemy, does not allow enough frame advantage for heavies amd does no allow uncounterable guard breaks.
Blocking: Increase the amount of chip damage slightly. Blocks no longer interrupt combos from continuing (light attacks)

Those are the main mechanical issues I see. After that, it's about tweaking character balance.

Mothsinger
02-26-2017, 12:55 AM
There has been numerous posts addressing this problem, even since the early stages of the game, and none of them were noticed by the developers.
Simply because the game fundementals are so strict, it would jumble the entire balancing and game experience if it got changed.
While a lot of suggestions are very good ideas and could solve the problem, I highly doubt that anything will actually happen.

Don't get me wrong, I love this game, and I really wished certain changed were to made. But honestly. Don't you think Ubisoft didn't have much faith in this IP to begin with?
It's a very niche genre for a relativly small playerbase, which is already dropping due to the problems with the game. Management probably predicted that it won't make that big of a buck, so funding was probably cut during development. Why else would they cut out local Mulitplayer which was promised in the beginning? Why else would they save money by introducing a P2P sytem to a game like this? Yes. I know a lot of fighting games use P2P. But those are 1v1. Not 4v4 with 200 minions. **** servers, lets do another Assasins Creed game instead.

Edit: There is network analysis on Youtube that proves that the game has a base ping of over 100 + your actual ping, so it's not unusual that you play with around 130-140 ping or worse. People are complaining that quick characters are hard to block, because their light attacks are chained so fast. Thing is, when you train against bot in a custom match, this is never an issue. Even the chains of Orochi or Peacekeeper are blockable with no problem. The connection sucks.
Sorry, besides the point of the thread, but I wanted to mention it...

DJ_Masterson
02-26-2017, 09:17 PM
3)remove guard break interrupt
It occurred to me the other night that this would, indeed, be the simplest way to crush the defense meta. But I wonder if it would only succeed in overpowering aggressive playstyles and rendering defensive playstyles obsolete?

BranMandragoran
03-10-2017, 04:00 AM
I'd really like GB to be harder to counter GB and for defending to cost some amount of stamina.

xHoodieninja86x
03-10-2017, 05:15 AM
It occurred to me the other night that this would, indeed, be the simplest way to crush the defense meta. But I wonder if it would only succeed in overpowering aggressive playstyles and rendering defensive playstyles obsolete?

alot of the game was designed around Guard Break it would be dumb to just take it away.