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View Full Version : Noob-world, a beginners hell.



Ujir0
02-24-2017, 01:32 AM
Perhaps not that important but i've noticed it's impossible to go pvp with a char you've just started playing with.
And so a probable problem for players that will be purchasing the game at later stages.

It's a rare thing already to be matched with players that arent prestige 2+ and just spam 2-hit combos to rek you.

For ppl who wanna state the obvious, yes i know, you can practice against bots etc but bots don't play like humans to begin with and it's simply not as fun
as 4vs4.

Suggestion: a mode that is restricted by lvl or gear lvl so beginners can play/experience the game without getting rekt by ppl that are nolife-ing or just grinding exp.

SiewcaRaka
02-24-2017, 01:35 AM
Perhaps not that important but i've noticed it's impossible to go pvp with a char you've just started playing with.
And so a probable problem for players that will be purchasing the game at later stages.

It's a rare thing already to be matched with players that arent prestige 2+ and just spam 2-hit combos to rek you.

For ppl who wanna state the obvious, yes i know, you can practice against bots etc but bots don't play like humans to begin with and it's simply not as fun
as 4vs4.

Suggestion: a mode that is restricted by lvl or gear lvl so beginners can play/experience the game without getting rekt by ppl that are nolife-ing or just grinding exp.

Most of us had to deal with such situation. Some of us struggled and survived. Some of us are whining on forum. He got better stats? Well work around it. Be smart. Learn their moves. Be prepared. Got awesome gear. Probably revange. He got revenge? RUUUUN. It wears off? Kill him. There is no gear that will resurrect him from being executed, send to the pit or to lava or to spikes. Simply...kill him.

Reign
02-24-2017, 01:37 AM
Life sucks, buy a helmet. Those who arrive survive. :)

Zv1k0
02-24-2017, 01:41 AM
Thats why i keep saying in a lot of threads now, we need matchmaking filters for gear stats to be optional like you can choose in custom matches. This way you could play whoever you want and what level you want without being in disadvantage except your skill and knowledge about your character. Levels would still go up, you could use whatever gear you want for better looks but stats would be set to default. Everyone happy...

CoyoteXStarrk
02-24-2017, 01:43 AM
I agree that its BS that it puts low level characters with prestiged ones.


BUT


It is not "Impossible" to go into PvP with a new character and be good.

There is a practice mode for a reason.

There is vs AI for a reason.


If you go into PvP with a character you are not comfortable with yet that is on YOU not Ubisoft or the matchmaking. Its on YOU to practice and learn a Character before taking them into competitive modes.


And if your excuse is "I don't like bots" then you have no right to complain. They give you a number of options to learn and get good with a character its your fault for not using it.


Not them.

Dekallis
02-24-2017, 01:45 AM
....Name one fighting game you can come into as a newbie and play against people who have had time to learn combos and mechanics and expect to do well. There isn't one.

If you don't know your character don't expect to just push buttons and win. Simple as that.

CoyoteXStarrk
02-24-2017, 01:48 AM
....Name one fighting game you can come into as a newbie and play against people who have had time to learn combos and mechanics and expect to do well. There isn't one.

If you don't know your character don't expect to just push buttons and win. Simple as that.

Also this.


Even IF there WAS a mode like this dude is describing he would STILL get rekt left and right because every other player that has a brain will have used the practice mode and played against bots first.


So he would STILL be at a disadvantage. I mean come on.

CoyoteXStarrk
02-24-2017, 01:50 AM
Yes thats all very nice, but ... the game claims to have a matchmaking system.

It does have a matchmaking system.





No one ever said that it made GOOD matches though :)

Ujir0
02-24-2017, 06:49 AM
Also this.


Even IF there WAS a mode like this dude is describing he would STILL get rekt left and right because every other player that has a brain will have used the practice mode and played against bots first.


So he would STILL be at a disadvantage. I mean come on.

I've tried to avoid comments like this by saying: "i know you can practice vs bots etc blalalalala"
Alas, i have failed.

Ill explain once more, playing versus bots is FAR from playing versus humans.
I am talking about the scenario where you first practice vs bots and then go into PVP.

Fact is, it doesnt make a ***** difference.

Also i'm talking about people that perhaps will be buying the game in 2 months from now, just to be matched with ppl like us.

I doubt they will have positive experience.

DrExtrem
02-24-2017, 07:02 AM
Fighting bots is totally different from fighting humans.

Not because bots are dumb but because you can not out-react them. Bots have perfect defense, unless you cheese them - a thing you don't do, if you want to train.

Killing bots is about counter play and guard breaking - at least @ level one. Unblockables are also very good at this stage. At higher stages, the bots become very aggressive, players passive. Guard breaking and unblockables are countered or avoided by bots as well. Its all about counter play vs. bots.

Fighting humans is different.

Hackfraysn
02-24-2017, 08:08 AM
Most of us had to deal with such situation. Some of us struggled and survived. Some of us are whining on forum. He got better stats? Well work around it. Be smart. Learn their moves. Be prepared. Got awesome gear. Probably revange. He got revenge? RUUUUN. It wears off? Kill him. There is no gear that will resurrect him from being executed, send to the pit or to lava or to spikes. Simply...kill him.

You apparently have no clue how gear works in this game. Revenge after 3-4 blocks is a thing. Even if they don't block, they'll be able to pop revenge before you can kill them. Up to 12 seconds revenge isn't unheard of. Perpetual revenge isn't uncommon in those lopsided matches. Bear in mind this gives you basically a full heal and free hyperarmor. Maxed out attack vs no defense will get you 2shot.

Good luck trying to outrun a revenged assassin or any class with maxed sprinting gear when you're a Lawbringer or Raider. The only thing is to hope there's a ledge nearby and that you win the guardbreak spam and he doesn't counterguardbreak you. That's your only chance.

SiewcaRaka
02-24-2017, 08:18 AM
You apparently have no clue how gear works in this game. Revenge after 3-4 blocks is a thing. Even if they don't block, they'll be able to pop revenge before you can kill them. Up to 12 seconds revenge isn't unheard of. Perpetual revenge isn't uncommon in those lopsided matches. Bear in mind this gives you basically a full heal and free hyperarmor. Maxed out attack vs no defense will get you 2shot.

Good luck trying to outrun a revenged assassin or any class with maxed sprinting gear when you're a Lawbringer or Raider. The only thing is to hope there's a ledge nearby and that you win the guardbreak spam and he doesn't counterguardbreak you. That's your only chance.

Don't give him those two blocks. Make him get revenge from dmg. Defend, CGB, and defend. 12 seconds? Not so scary, just keep playing defensively. No revenge gives health back, only armor. And once its down go back to killing. He got it back again? Repeat previous step. GG. You've won vs prestige 3+. Oh, and by run I meant "retreat in orderly fashion" Keep lock on him but go back as far as you can.

Been there. Done that.

Alchemist-21-
02-24-2017, 08:30 AM
You can practice in 1v1 Duels - your gear stats will be turned off and you get to practice against humans instead of bots. Then once you're comfortable with you character's moves and play style you can try brawl for practicing situations where you might get 1v2; gear stats are also turned off.

Just today I was using my lv 10 Orochi in Duel mode against a rep 2 peacekeeper. In the span of 7 matches I noticed I got a lot more comfortable with his moves than I had been and that I was doing progressively better against my opponent. I even got a couple wins in.

Derity
02-24-2017, 08:44 AM
Um.... I'm confused, the whole point of learning a new character is to try to get good with it, so you start playing it, you lose a lot, eventually you learn to win.

What's goin on here lol

DrExtrem
02-24-2017, 08:51 AM
Especially new players will learn nothing from getting destroyed.

They will simply be overwhelmed at first, try to fight back second and give up in frustration after trying to learn something in botmatches, that does not translate to pvp.

When I try to level a hero, I am matched against the same bots, I am matched with, when I play my best hero. The problem is, that I am playing a new hero, with new moves and timings. Those things make the hero different to play with and the results are bad.

I don't need to learn the basics with my new hero - but I need to learn how I apply the basics.

Hackfraysn
02-24-2017, 09:06 AM
Don't give him those two blocks. Make him get revenge from dmg. Defend, CGB, and defend. 12 seconds? Not so scary, just keep playing defensively. No revenge gives health back, only armor. And once its down go back to killing. He got it back again? Repeat previous step. GG. You've won vs prestige 3+. Oh, and by run I meant "retreat in orderly fashion" Keep lock on him but go back as far as you can.

Been there. Done that.

Dude, it's not like this is happening in a vacuum.

Most of the time you won't have a proper 1v1 in modes where gear matters and even if, you won't be able to kill your opponent before his ganksquad backup arrives.


Don't give him those two blocks.
This is the most preposterous statement I've heard in a while. What are you supposed to do? Stare him down? Use harsh language? Wait until he goes afk? A decent player won't expose any weakness easily and won't derp attack you either.

Revenge fills up your bar. Not health, but you'll get a full bar every time you pop it. It's basically the equivalent of a perpetual heal. All it takes is 3 blocks and they're easy to get. Some characters even fill their bar by attacking you. What if you don't attack him but your other noob teammates do and give him perpetual revenge mode?

I'd also love to see you turtle up when you're in a 1vs2 and your enemy's teammate guardbreaks you, while you try to block or parry your focus target's blows.


revenge gives [...] only armor. And once its down go back to killing. He got it back again? Repeat previous step.
You're a comedian. No really. So you're saying it's easy for a beginner to survive 12 seconds under constant pressure, when even blocking makes you take damage and you're only allowed to attack when your opponent can't defend? I really wanna see a real beginner who can pull this off consistently.

Your tips may work on paper, but they are oversimplified yet difficult to execute (even for veterans), completely disregard variables and therefore absolutely do not work for new players. Plus, it requires new players to play flawlessly, which is impossible for them by their very definition. Beginners simply lack the experience and understanding of core mechanics to even know how to properly utilize your suggestions. Honestly, how many of your fresh beginner friends can parry prestige 3+ guys or even lvl 3 bots consistently? How about unblockables? How many of them can deal with feints? How many of them can use feints in the first place? How many of them can turtle and have immaculate defense and strike only when the tiny windows of opportunity open up? How many of them can last long enough in an uphill battle to whittle down your opponent's health bar with your miniscule damage, where you even take damage when you block and die in 2 hits?

I can safely tell you, that none of mine do. Or better: Did. They quit the game altogether.

It's nice that you've been there, done that. Go pat yourself on your back and get yourself a medal. New players haven't been there, done that and you're obviously unable to get in their heads and understand them. This is a genuine problem in this game and definitely one of the bigger reasons why this game is bleeding players. You can either be oblivious to it and tell everyone and his dog to "git gud", or you could try to "git gud" at empathy and address the problem. You won't solve this with an elitist attitude of self-adulation, saying everything is fine and others just suck, because that's not how things are in reality. Gear matters. So does experience and usually time played. No new player should be matched against people with gear and significant experience. Period. This issue is an inherent flaw of the matchmaking. It can not be solved by "git gud" because no newbie will stick around long enough to learn how to deal with this, if he gets his face bashed in every match for hours on end. This is not a fun experience for anyone and quite frankly it does neither have to be like this, nor should it be acceptable.

Gear is not fine in this game. Neither is matchmaking. If you really wanna help, get off your high horse and start seeing how the world looks like from a footsoldier's perspective.


Especially new players will learn nothing from getting destroyed.

They will simply be overwhelmed at first, try to fight back second and give up in frustration after trying to learn something in botmatches, that does not translate to pvp.

When I try to level a hero, I am matched against the same bots, I am matched with, when I play my best hero. The problem is, that I am playing a new hero, with new moves and timings. Those things make the hero different to play with and the results are bad.

I don't need to learn the basics with my new hero - but I need to learn how I apply the basics.

Couldn't agree more. I've seen that happen with all my friends who didn't play the betas. They quit due to unfair matchmaking and frustration.

Well, I don't mind losing to bots when I try a new character. It's more like sparring to me, but I agree. You shouldn't get lvl 3 bots when trying a new character for the first time.

m1y4gi
02-24-2017, 09:14 AM
When you critisize this, you are truly not wrong, because the matchmaking of for honor is simply not existing in a known way. They just care about the connections, to be sure their cheap network will work.

The problem is, you get into a match before you choose a character, so it never can happen with this architecture, that the matchmaking satisfies with making balanced player matches. BUT as you can read in here, you always should know how to play. If you do, you always stand a chance.

At first you can train against AI on one on one or in a 4on4. Once you feel prepared, switch to one on one PvP. There the gear score is switched off. So both players meets up on a fair level. Now only skill decides who wins. And thats the way. Learn there, whats different in pvp, improve, go back to practice, back to duel, get better. At anytime you can go 4on4 pvp to test your skills and you will see, reputation 4 not always means - you have no chance. There you get in touch and feel the power of thy sword ;)

Last but not least, THIS should always be the way to play new characters and i bet the most players do so. Even those woh are already at reputation 3 or higher. When they learn a new character, it's the same way to get skilled as for a newbie.

From another pov, this "problem" of being matched with higher skilled players having slightly better gear is not a for-honor-only-problem. You face this in almost every actual shooter. For honor indeed got the problem, that those fights are much more intense and the frustration is also higher. You have to settle with this.

I guess this is the point where you face the sentence "For Honor is made for core gamers" which Ubisoft clearly adressed. When your frustration line is that low, you should not buy this game ;D


For Honor is the grandpa of the dark zone.

FailOfHDDVD
02-24-2017, 09:26 AM
Also this.


Even IF there WAS a mode like this dude is describing he would STILL get rekt left and right because every other player that has a brain will have used the practice mode and played against bots first.


So he would STILL be at a disadvantage. I mean come on.

hes still at a disadvantage because of the lack of practice:D

SiewcaRaka
02-24-2017, 06:58 PM
Dude, it's not like this is happening in a vacuum.

Most of the time you won't have a proper 1v1 in modes where gear matters and even if, you won't be able to kill your opponent before his ganksquad backup arrives.

Same thing applies to prestige 5 guy. If he doesn't kill you he might get ganked and that is never safe even with full revenge gear.



This is the most preposterous statement I've heard in a while. What are you supposed to do? Stare him down? Use harsh language? Wait until he goes afk? A decent player won't expose any weakness easily and won't derp attack you either.

I don't know...hit him? You do realise the point of the game is hurting heroes not allowing them to block you?


Revenge fills up your bar. Not health, but you'll get a full bar every time you pop it. It's basically the equivalent of a perpetual heal. All it takes is 3 blocks and they're easy to get. Some characters even fill their bar by attacking you. What if you don't attack him but your other noob teammates do and give him perpetual revenge mode?

I'd also love to see you turtle up when you're in a 1vs2 and your enemy's teammate guardbreaks you, while you try to block or parry your focus target's blows.

Armor wears off. And you can kill him then. 12 seconds is not that long with good footwork.



You're a comedian. No really. So you're saying it's easy for a beginner to survive 12 seconds under constant pressure, when even blocking makes you take damage and you're only allowed to attack when your opponent can't defend? I really wanna see a real beginner who can pull this off consistently.

Dodge, roll, repeat. If he can't do this he is dead. I am telling him how to stay alive.



Your tips may work on paper, but they are oversimplified yet difficult to execute (even for veterans), completely disregard variables and therefore absolutely do not work for new players. Plus, it requires new players to play flawlessly, which is impossible for them by their very definition. Beginners simply lack the experience and understanding of core mechanics to even know how to properly utilize your suggestions. Honestly, how many of your fresh beginner friends can parry prestige 3+ guys or even lvl 3 bots consistently? How about unblockables? How many of them can deal with feints? How many of them can use feints in the first place? How many of them can turtle and have immaculate defense and strike only when the tiny windows of opportunity open up? How many of them can last long enough in an uphill battle to whittle down your opponent's health bar with your miniscule damage, where you even take damage when you block and die in 2 hits?

I can safely tell you, that none of mine do. Or better: Did. They quit the game altogether.

Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately my friends got grasp of things quite fast. Maybe your friends simply sucked? You know, not everyone is suited for every game.


It's nice that you've been there, done that. Go pat yourself on your back and get yourself a medal. New players haven't been there, done that and you're obviously unable to get in their heads and understand them. This is a genuine problem in this game and definitely one of the bigger reasons why this game is bleeding players. You can either be oblivious to it and tell everyone and his dog to "git gud", or you could try to "git gud" at empathy and address the problem. You won't solve this with an elitist attitude of self-adulation, saying everything is fine and others just suck, because that's not how things are in reality. Gear matters. So does experience and usually time played. No new player should be matched against people with gear and significant experience. Period. This issue is an inherent flaw of the matchmaking. It can not be solved by "git gud" because no newbie will stick around long enough to learn how to deal with this, if he gets his face bashed in every match for hours on end. This is not a fun experience for anyone and quite frankly it does neither have to be like this, nor should it be acceptable.

Gear is not fine in this game. Neither is matchmaking. If you really wanna help, get off your high horse and start seeing how the world looks like from a footsoldier's perspective.

The whole game is about being more than footsoldier(those are the guys that get slaughter in every dominion in the middle). But you have to prove it. I was new player and i struggled. I was victorious in that struggle. I survived and learned how to play. I won't be so nice to make it easier for them. Because they will suck later on. And I want good opponents. Those who are weak can quit or play bots.

Gnarxly
02-24-2017, 07:10 PM
Whining all day every day :nonchalance:

Noellessa2016
02-24-2017, 07:13 PM
If you're getting matched vs. GS108 people with full revenge stats as a new player, make sure you didn't let the queue switch you from 'strict' matchmaking MMR to "all skill level" MMR -- if you don't cancel your queue within about 20 seconds it will be into 'all skill levels" which will put you vs people far over your hidden MMR.

** BTW - I've found that even with 'strict' MMR, if I'm playing on a level 1 char it will default to my highest played prestige 1 MMR // so seems to be an account wide hidden MMR **

Knight.Bishop
02-24-2017, 07:19 PM
Perhaps not that important but i've noticed it's impossible to go pvp with a char you've just started playing with.
And so a probable problem for players that will be purchasing the game at later stages.

It's a rare thing already to be matched with players that arent prestige 2+ and just spam 2-hit combos to rek you.

For ppl who wanna state the obvious, yes i know, you can practice against bots etc but bots don't play like humans to begin with and it's simply not as fun
as 4vs4.

Suggestion: a mode that is restricted by lvl or gear lvl so beginners can play/experience the game without getting rekt by ppl that are nolife-ing or just grinding exp.

There's always a lot of trolls on forums, but I think you have a great point and a great suggestion. It's very difficult to learn a new character without playing against the computer for hours, and then entering some multiplayer matches and losing against people's mains.

A multiplayer mode with no gear and level restrictions would be a great way to be able to learn new characters against other people doing the same. Might have long queue times, but better than just fighting bots all the time.

Nlghtmal2e
02-24-2017, 07:20 PM
all we need is that we can config our match making filter ourselves , I don't mind a long waiting time