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View Full Version : Shugoki....are you ****ting me?



HalcyonRM
02-22-2017, 07:42 AM
This class is pretty much immune to everything I threw at it with a Lawbringer in practice.

Impaling Charge - immune
Impaling Reposte- immune
The Long Arm - immune

If I block his attack and immediately guard break it lets me shove which starts a combo chain, but even if I use a light attack after the shove he's already swinging with an uninterruptible attack.
If I parry and do one of my parry specials, he's already swinging something that I can't avoid because I'm in a combo chain.

Half the time he's grabbing me, which pressing guard break against does nothing, and stunning me then doing the uppercut with the club sending me flying. Or doing his headbutt which dazes me.

So what the ****? All his attacks can't be interrupted but he's outright immune to 1/4 of my attacks and any combo chain I try to do can be interrupted by him? Even after I did a pushback counter?

This is horse****. This isn't even balanced. Of all characters, the Lawbringer should be able to interrupt this guy and NONE of his abilities should be immune. Shugoki needs some more balancing.

Salt_Fist
02-22-2017, 08:01 AM
I can sympathise with your view.

However I've gotten past it.

The shugoki are telegraphed wrecking machines.

You can clearly see it all coming, which makes it all the more salty when it all hits and kills you.

That being said you will find safe options to approach. I did.

The shugoki are pretty susceptible to g.b.s as are most. But the easiest way to learn what beats a class, is to pick it up and take it to duels, you will find out quick what is bodying you.

It took me maybe 10 straight duels to figure out how to outplay 80% of shugoki

HalcyonRM
02-22-2017, 08:25 AM
No I'm saying this is straight up broken.

I specifically took the Conqueror, because it's heavy attacks have Superior Block, which interrupts opponent's light and heavy attacks.
The Shugoki bot didn't give a ****. It continued through with heavy attacks even after I hit it with a heavy attack.

The icing on the cake is when I used Shield Bash Reposte.

The Conqueror goes into a full block stance, then launches into a shield bash.
The shield bash is supposed to be unblockable and do a push back mechanic.

Well Shugoki bot didn't give a ****. In the middle of the shield bash animation he picked me up and broke my back.

What. The. ****.

Broken! Shugoki is flat out broken and OP right now as long as he ignores mechanics like unblockable, push back, and specific abilities like the Lawbringers impale. Give me a ****ing break. Fix this.

Kiiyor
02-22-2017, 09:21 AM
As a fatty player on the side, I can tell you that playing a defensive game against him plays right into Shugoki's hands. If you let him regenerate his +5 force field of 'i'm fine the way I am as long as i'm happy' impenetrable fatness, he gets to dictate the terms of EVERY exchange. You can't feint him, as he can just accept any follow up hit while trading a light attack before headbutting you away to make room - or, he can just go for a parry anyway knowing that if you've feinted, he's still going to have a heavy whistling away towards your face.

You can try to mix it up with the occasional GB, but if he lands one of his own, or counters, he can get in a light, then a headbutt to remove tonnes of stamina for good measure. I often have internal battles with myself over that after a GB - a little donk and bonk to remove a heap of stamina, or go heavy for hilarity? IMPOSSIBRU CHOICE.

He's a supreme aggressor, and a master baiter.

His kryptonite, however, is pressure. You have to play aggressively yourself against him, which is where most people fall flat, being used to the defensive game most opponents play. If you drop his shield, don't let him get it back! He can barely dodge, his guard switch is ponderous, he's HILARIOUSLY slow at closing distance after dashes, and once he's low on stamina (which he can be after even ONE attack), his offence drops dramatically. Most Shubrooki players are also used to the muscle memory fighting they get when their shield is up - i've lost count of the number of fatties i've killed because they keep forgetting they can be interrupted once their shield is down.

Fast attacking characters will end him more rightly than any thrown pommel ever will - so will aggressive ones. All of the assassins can eat him before he even realizes he's at the wrong dinner table.

Keep up the pressure with quick attacks, mix up your attack direction, force him to swing for the rafters, parry or dodge his unblockables, and watch our for his week-long telegraphed inevitable desperate attempt to friendship hug you into his sweaty, heaving man bosom at the end of a fight (remembering he can heavy feint into that also...) and before you know it you'll be treated to the dulcet tones of his surprisingly pig like death squeal (seriously, did they sample a pig?).

He is tougher to face as a LB though - because the LB is one character that doesn't have the advantage of speed - though top light pokes work against me when i'm facing them.

All IMHO of course.

PrinceOfTea
02-22-2017, 09:29 AM
...and a master baiter.


Confirmed.

Tocki92
02-22-2017, 09:43 AM
I would suggest you print the stuff kiiyor wrote and stick it in your forehead, he is totally right:D I main shugoki and I struggle against lawbringers, who constantly attacks me with his bash, gb, attacks and whatever.
I played against some very good lawbringers in duel and in the most time I was stunned, laying down or being thrown against a wall:) couldn't really react and I was dead.

Keep in mind that if you hit his shield, you have to land an attack in 4 seconds, because it does extra damage.
Don't be too greedy when he is low life. I turn so many fights into my victory, because a greedy enemy didn't play carefully and i could grab and hug him, instant death.

HalcyonRM
02-22-2017, 10:10 AM
stuff


stuff

So both of you think it's acceptable that shugoki is immune against all the lawbringer moves that knock down an opponent?
It's ok that a heavy attack with Superior Block, which is supposed to interrupt ANY light or heavy attack, doesn't interrupt any of shugoki's attacks?

It's ok that if I successfully perform a shield bash, in the middle of the bash animation shugoki can just pick me up and break my back for 1/2 health?

All of that is balanced to you guys? Because I say it's complete horse****.

Kiiyor
02-22-2017, 10:41 AM
So both of you think it's acceptable that shugoki is immune against all the lawbringer moves that knock down an opponent?
It's ok that a heavy attack with Superior Block, which is supposed to interrupt ANY light or heavy attack, doesn't interrupt any of shugoki's attacks?


It's only acceptable the first time. If you've landed a hit, superior block works fine - so does every other ability. Shugoki's whole kit revolves around that shield. There's no ambiguity to it; only GB gets through. If you start adding exceptions to that, you're only applying a band aid to the problem, and the problem isn't the Shugoki's shield, it's the way people approach a fight with him.

If you try to out-trade a character who is designed to win the first trade, you're only going to frustrate yourself.

I'm not trying to make light of your frustration. I'd suggest only that you mix up your playstlye when facing the fatty. There's no point going for broke with the shield up, or you've only yourself to blame when things go flabby pear shaped. You can't approach him thinking 'how can I win this trade' or 'which hits can I land' or 'how do I land this awesome combo' or 'how has he not died of some sort of fungal infection' - you need to prioritize the shield. Lots of characters need to mix up their playstyle facing other characters, and facing the fat man is no different. The fat man needs to change his playstyle fighting assassins, for example; I find it best to flail around in wild panic before impressing them to death with how many stab wounds my character is bleeding from.




It's ok that if I successfully perform a shield bash, in the middle of the bash animation shugoki can just pick me up and break my back for 1/2 health?

All of that is balanced to you guys? Because I say it's complete horse****.

That attack is hands down the most telegraphed in the game - both with it's animation, and with the fact that you can predict with absolute certainty that a Shugoki will try it whenever they are low on health.

Maintain distance, poke at it, dodge it, kill it (I know the PK dodges like a whale wearing an anvil in a backpack, but dodge it he can). Don't take any bait being dangled in front of you, because Shugo WANTS you to get close and attack. Seriously, bait is his thing! He's a particularly obese sea snake.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3ofvkIEf2Y

For best results, spawn a level 2 Shugo bot, and you'll either learn to dodge the back break, or have permanently affected posture.

Side note: I rarely ever pull off the hug anymore, unless i'm facing someone greedy for the kill, or i'm in dominion.

I do, however, object to the one hit kill thing. I think it should never kill a fully healthy character - though if we were to keep to the spirit of it, i'd be happy with reducing it's damage and providing a stamina hit to both the Shugo and his chiropracted victim.

Felis_Menari
02-22-2017, 11:05 AM
I'm not sure if it's a guaranteed counter, but sidestepping with good timing seems to always get me a guard break if his hyper armor is down. If not, it cancels it and he's vulnerable, but I try to poke him first before that (shove works wonders for that). And I just learned something tonight; it is possible to shove a shugoki and block the incoming light attack if the shugoki's attack is a reaction to the shove. If it the shugoki was already mid swing, well, you just eat the hit and grab him. But it's best to avoid that. Eating shugoki hits is not a good idea. Oh, and one other thing; if you manage to parry a shug's attack and his hyper armor is active, smack him with the light parry counter attack. Then you can begin pressuring him. And as Kiiyor mentioned, pressure is the shug's weakness.

iHunny
02-22-2017, 11:07 AM
Shygoki is a good counter to Conqueror, its understandable you having a hard time vs him.

Razor__Fox
02-22-2017, 11:16 AM
huh. I find shugokis really easy when they aren't abusing the exploits.

Valtaya
02-22-2017, 11:18 AM
As a fatty player on the side, I can tell you that playing a defensive game against him plays right into Shugoki's hands. If you let him regenerate his +5 force field of 'i'm fine the way I am as long as i'm happy' impenetrable fatness, he gets to dictate the terms of EVERY exchange. You can't feint him, as he can just accept any follow up hit while trading a light attack before headbutting you away to make room - or, he can just go for a parry anyway knowing that if you've feinted, he's still going to have a heavy whistling away towards your face.

You can try to mix it up with the occasional GB, but if he lands one of his own, or counters, he can get in a light, then a headbutt to remove tonnes of stamina for good measure. I often have internal battles with myself over that after a GB - a little donk and bonk to remove a heap of stamina, or go heavy for hilarity? IMPOSSIBRU CHOICE.

He's a supreme aggressor, and a master baiter.

His kryptonite, however, is pressure. You have to play aggressively yourself against him, which is where most people fall flat, being used to the defensive game most opponents play. If you drop his shield, don't let him get it back! He can barely dodge, his guard switch is ponderous, he's HILARIOUSLY slow at closing distance after dashes, and once he's low on stamina (which he can be after even ONE attack), his offence drops dramatically. Most Shubrooki players are also used to the muscle memory fighting they get when their shield is up - i've lost count of the number of fatties i've killed because they keep forgetting they can be interrupted once their shield is down.

Fast attacking characters will end him more rightly than any thrown pommel ever will - so will aggressive ones. All of the assassins can eat him before he even realizes he's at the wrong dinner table.

Keep up the pressure with quick attacks, mix up your attack direction, force him to swing for the rafters, parry or dodge his unblockables, and watch our for his week-long telegraphed inevitable desperate attempt to friendship hug you into his sweaty, heaving man bosom at the end of a fight (remembering he can heavy feint into that also...) and before you know it you'll be treated to the dulcet tones of his surprisingly pig like death squeal (seriously, did they sample a pig?).

He is tougher to face as a LB though - because the LB is one character that doesn't have the advantage of speed - though top light pokes work against me when i'm facing them.

All IMHO of course.

You know, that is all just fine, but everyone needs drawback and Shugoki have none.
First: by that size this hero should run at max 50% the speed of everyone else, this way, he can not just run away
Second: Strikes should cost a ton of stamina
Third: a fatty like that can not evade

Banemobius
02-22-2017, 11:41 AM
Shugoki has 1 hit of passive armour which regenerates over time, so when you hit him with that stuff he armoured through it, however then you didn't hit him again until it regenerated. Hit him to remove the armour then hit him again. He also takes increased damage when his armour is down.

Also superior block makes your blocking interrupt heavy attacks just like lights. It doesn't make your heavy attacks go through armour, why would you even think that? It's called superior BLOCK.

Kiiyor
02-22-2017, 01:58 PM
You know, that is all just fine, but everyone needs drawback and Shugoki have none.
First: by that size this hero should run at max 50% the speed of everyone else, this way, he can not just run away
Second: Strikes should cost a ton of stamina
Third: a fatty like that can not evade

No drawbacks? He's full of them. Without his armor up, he's far from effective. He's fishbait for fast characters too.

What tier would you put him in as far as overall effectiveness goes? Would you stand him next to the Warden, or Orochi, or the PeaceKeeper?

neogeo___
02-22-2017, 02:17 PM
Certainly one of the hardest classes to play as and highly punishable.

Calling for nerf and saying it's OP could only come from someone that didn't even go through his move set or watched his tutorial videos let alone try to even play him

Seriously...

neogeo___
02-22-2017, 02:24 PM
You know, that is all just fine, but everyone needs drawback and Shugoki have none.
First: by that size this hero should run at max 50% the speed of everyone else, this way, he can not just run away
Second: Strikes should cost a ton of stamina
Third: a fatty like that can not evade

1st: He takes extra damage while not having his uninterruptable stance active. he is extremely slow. In a team gamemode scenario he takes a beating and his bear hug is the last thing you want do do being ganged up on, also no certain hits or moves besides GB heavy. He needs to take timed hits while having his stance active to get hits in.
2nd: strikes do cost a ton of stamina making him one of the chars where the user really needs to factor in stamina economy, this in a game where most chars simply don't
3rd: this is a fighting game, not a simulator and yet he is in fact among the slowest chars and the sprint he has is a skill and costs about 50% of his stamina and to my knowledge doesn't even last that long

Aside the obvious double hit unparryable exploit he needs no changes to bring him down. If anything some tweaks to make him a bit less punishable when out of stance and possibly make his guard switch a tiny bit faster.

Aeecto
02-22-2017, 02:36 PM
Shugos grab is so easy to predict and dodge, even as conq.
Interesting fact most dont know, since i read severall times that they gb him after dodge: the grab is a "hit or dead" move... it's a free heavy even for the slowest heroes if they dodge his grab.
Since i learned it that a lot of shugos rely on that grab and how i can counter it, it's a 100% execution kill for me every single time a shugo tries it!

neogeo___
02-22-2017, 03:55 PM
Shugos grab is so easy to predict and dodge, even as conq.
Interesting fact most dont know, since i read severall times that they gb him after dodge: the grab is a "hit or dead" move... it's a free heavy even for the slowest heroes if they dodge his grab.
Since i learned it that a lot of shugos rely on that grab and how i can counter it, it's a 100% execution kill for me every single time a shugo tries it!

Not sure I understand.

He has no dodge to GB combo in his move set. Which is counter to what I understood from what your post. Or you meant to say you can side dodge his GB and GB back for a certain connect? Not sure about that since to my knowledge the GB function aside from animation speed and range has the same mechanics for every char, including tracking. Would have to test it to be sure. If this is what you are saying, pretty sure the vulnerability time after GB is the same for every char no matter who GB or is GBed. What you mention might be true due to the shugoki having one of the slowest stance switch speeds and that might be what guarantees the hit no matter the char that GBed.

As for GB someone mid dodge, it's always a certain GB, he wouldn't be the exception.

As for the rest. Maybe bad Shugoki's because he is a little played and known char, so the bear hug will surprise players that are unfamiliar with him.
If anything the Shugoki cannot afford to be predictable, otherwise it's punishment after punishment.

No doubt he is among the most difficult to master. Timing, opportunistic input that always have to take advantage of the opponents move and turn it against him is what the shugoki is all about.

The char it self is pretty much the definition of what a fighting game should be. Timing, reaction and precision inputs while always judging the situation and what the opponent is doing, or you get nailed to the wall. Sad to say that the most played chars can almost disregard these and still be deadly. Timing especially

SirCorrino
02-22-2017, 04:06 PM
I


That attack is hands down the most telegraphed in the game - both with it's animation, and with the fact that you can predict with absolute certainty that a Shugoki will try it whenever they are low on health.

Maintain distance, poke at it, dodge it, kill it (I know the PK dodges like a whale wearing an anvil in a backpack, but dodge it he can). Don't take any bait being dangled in front of you, because Shugo WANTS you to get close and attack. Seriously, bait is his thing! He's a particularly obese sea snake.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3ofvkIEf2Y

For best results, spawn a level 2 Shugo bot, and you'll either learn to dodge the back break, or have permanently affected posture.

Side note: I rarely ever pull off the hug anymore, unless i'm facing someone greedy for the kill, or i'm in dominion.

I do, however, object to the one hit kill thing. I think it should never kill a fully healthy character - though if we were to keep to the spirit of it, i'd be happy with reducing it's damage and providing a stamina hit to both the Shugo and his chiropracted victim.

The problem with Demon's Embrace is that it has priority over EVERYTHING except lying on the ground. You're in the middle of a parry? He picks you up. The Shugoki has a teammate directly between him and you? He picks you up through the teammate. Another enemy just guard broke you? The Shugoki picks you up anyway. You're in the invuln frames of activating revenge? The Shugoki still picks you up. You dodge a single frame too early/late? The Shugoki tracks you and still picks you up.

And not only that. He holds you in the air for such a long time that if he has any allies nearby they all get in at least 1 guaranteed heavy, often 2. So there's an attack that can come out of nowhere in a team fight (he can be behind you out of sight), or hit you while you are immobile due to parrying or being guard broken (even if you counter it) that can give up to 100 free damage + follow-up from the Shugoki with only a single ally present. That's utterly ******ed. It needs to have ALL tracking removed as right now it has much more generous tracking than other charge moves. It also needs to not pick up through allies or when the target is parrying. The shugoki should also either drop the target much faster or take increased damage from both friendlies and enemies during the move.

neogeo___
02-22-2017, 04:16 PM
The problem with Demon's Embrace is that it has priority over EVERYTHING except lying on the ground. You're in the middle of a parry? He picks you up. The Shugoki has a teammate directly between him and you? He picks you up through the teammate. Another enemy just guard broke you? The Shugoki picks you up anyway. You're in the invuln frames of activating revenge? The Shugoki still picks you up. You dodge a single frame too early/late? The Shugoki tracks you and still picks you up.

And not only that. He holds you in the air for such a long time that if he has any allies nearby they all get in at least 1 guaranteed heavy, often 2. So there's an attack that can come out of nowhere in a team fight (he can be behind you out of sight), or hit you while you are immobile due to parrying or being guard broken (even if you counter it) that can give up to 100 free damage + follow-up from the Shugoki with only a single ally present. That's utterly ******ed. It needs to have ALL tracking removed as right now it has much more generous tracking than other charge moves. It also needs to not pick up through allies or when the target is parrying. The shugoki should also either drop the target much faster or take increased damage from both friendlies and enemies during the move.

I disagree. It can be interrupted with a hit if he hasn't the uninterruptable stance active, and in a team fight scenario such as the one you were describing, a friendly can easily remove his stance (haven't played him that much, usually go for duel modes but still this has happended to me often)

Also, according to that logic so can the orochi stand behind with a storm rush held until the opportunity to strike when the side isn't guarded. Or a lawbringer come in rushing to pick you up, or a PK come from nowhere to grab you and bleed you, or a raider running to pick you up, etc.

Thing also is that in a team fight scenario he will lose more health during the animation than the one he gains from it, he will only insta kill if in critical state, he might as well die during the animation and also, sometimes he doesn't heal because a stupid teammate comes along and kills the enemy before the animation is over, denying both the kill and the passive heal.
Not even his heavy cancel into demon's embrace is fast enough to the point of not being able to easily react to it. And if playing an assassin? oh boy, they don't really need precise timing and reaction while dodging now do they?

Seriously, he even has the insta kill if crit because devs knew how weak and punishable he is. A glass cannon indeed. Let's be serious pls.

Drekle
02-22-2017, 04:23 PM
Yeah this class is pretty broken against Valkyrie too if you think that Valkyrie is about controlling your opponent. I think you have to play differently against shugoki.

T_Djinn_T
02-22-2017, 04:27 PM
So both of you think it's acceptable that shugoki is immune against all the lawbringer moves that knock down an opponent?

What I'm seeing is you're mad because you don't comprehend the class.
All you're complaining about is you can't push him off the ledge... Big whoop who cares?

If you want to beat a Shugoki it's VERY easy. Run up to him. Press guard break, He countered it? So what. You now have his shield gone. He's like any other class except for the fact he now takes double damage. Because his shields gone you can also use those childish abilities you're trying to hard to spam to push him off the level. Since he doesn't have Super armor he can be moved.
But you're probably not willing to do that. Just having to take one extra step to break his unique mechanic the super armor is too much for you. Since you couldn't just start the match and push him off the level.

One of the single easiest heroes in the game to beat is Shugoki. Don't cry about it because you don't understand how to fight him. Instead ASK how you beat him.

rezfeber
02-22-2017, 05:18 PM
If Shugoki aren't taking advantage of his exploits I have a pretty easy time fighting him as the Nobushi. I never block and always try to parry, but if I can't do either of those I dodge then attack mostly. That's what has been working for me

Valtaya
02-22-2017, 06:01 PM
No drawbacks? He's full of them. Without his armor up, he's far from effective. He's fishbait for fast characters too.

What tier would you put him in as far as overall effectiveness goes? Would you stand him next to the Warden, or Orochi, or the PeaceKeeper?

Well the other day I hit a Shugoki with my Peacekeeper 4 times in a row and the 5th was bleeding... no damage. Hitting him is like trying to stab a stone wall.
Then he made that overhead swing... I tried to evade, nope didnt work. On the 2nd I tried to block... wow that damage. On the 3rd swing I tried to counter... you know what? That heavy overhead swing is faster then a stab with the armingsword when the Peacemaker is already on right. For someone who is a swordfighter RL this is kind of ridiculous. Well, maybe it is this damn peer-to-peer lag.

From all the heroes in the game, Shugoki is the worst, followed by Labringer. Warden is, yah a bit too easy maybe, Orochi annoying, another PeaceKeeper is even.

Gues it is realy that lag.... lvl3 bots in practice mode are.... it takes time to wear them down, but doable. Then, it could realy be just a bit too much.

VTheMan032
02-22-2017, 06:05 PM
Meh, Shungoki isn't that bad, parry/ dodge and just be aggressive against them.. they are slow, their guard is slo and they have 2 predictable combos...

BadgerBadger25
02-22-2017, 06:08 PM
Jesus go and read the character before coming on the forums and crying, if you read the Shugoki passive you would know why he seems immune to all of your crowd control and you would know exactly what to do.