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fw190a8
02-12-2004, 01:35 PM
Hi, I often run into situations where someone is on my six and I have to escape. But I couldn't perform the scissors properly. Would someone show me how to do the flat/rolling scissors to get rid of my opponet?

How do I start the manuever? What to do next? How about throttle, flap, aileron, rudder input and directions to go for? Reversing directions alternately?

I found if I reverse direction alternately I will bleed off too much energy. Please draw me a step-by-step instructions. Thanks.

[This message was edited by fw190a8 on Thu February 12 2004 at 12:46 PM.]

fw190a8
02-12-2004, 01:35 PM
Hi, I often run into situations where someone is on my six and I have to escape. But I couldn't perform the scissors properly. Would someone show me how to do the flat/rolling scissors to get rid of my opponet?

How do I start the manuever? What to do next? How about throttle, flap, aileron, rudder input and directions to go for? Reversing directions alternately?

I found if I reverse direction alternately I will bleed off too much energy. Please draw me a step-by-step instructions. Thanks.

[This message was edited by fw190a8 on Thu February 12 2004 at 12:46 PM.]

Zen--
02-12-2004, 02:15 PM
I posted this in another thread:


"Use it with combat flaps because they increase stability and stall control, but don't be shy about stick force...just use caution when entering the flat turn but after the nose begins to move increase the force to generate serious G forces. Snap roll the opposite direction and pull into the new turn. Take care to avoid flying back and forth in the same plane of motion, use high and low turns to cross his gunsight in an unpredictable manner. I usually continue the turn until I see that he has made a second or two with me, then reverse. When he commits his nose again, I reverse and repeat until we are coming back at each other nearly head on again. From there you hopefully you are back in a relatively neutral position and can continue the fight from there.

I must emphasise flying the scissors takes practice and a steady hand on the stick and you really need to be very familar with the stall characteristics of the plane and how to ride the edge. It also requires a good SA on the bandit's position and manuevering but thankfully the FW series has that impressive all around visibility. Things like this make up somewhat for the poor forward view."



I suppose at some point I will remember to record a track of this...maybe I'll take at shot at that this week. Problem is I'm usually too busy fighting at the moment to remember things like that.



http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=22810009

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

XyZspineZyX
02-12-2004, 03:05 PM
Like any maneuver, it's not a by-numbers, do-this-by-10-degrees answer. You do things by what the situation dictates.

Basically, a rolling scissors goes like this:

1) You have an enemy behind your wings (4:00 - 8:00 arc) who is close to, or has a gun solution; but he has a LOT of overtake speed. You do the scissors to exploit this and force him to overshoot you.

2) Roll and pull "into" him. That is, if he's at your 7 - 8:00, break left; if 4 - 5:00 break right. Because of his excess speed, he should have to go over or under your plane and more or less across the top of your canopy as he goes zipping by.

3)Reverse. Roll the other way and again, pull hard into him. You may or may not want to use flaps here, depending on if your plane is nimble, or damaged, or if you really want to slow down.

If the enemy has slowed down with you or is intent on nailing you on *this* gunpass, he may reverse himself and attempt to pull back behind you. If this is the case, you are in the scissors, like it or not. If he pulls up and away, or continues to dive away, all you've done is make a break turn and spoiled his attack. Which is good.


The scissors will now continue as this seesaw battle of break/counter break; however it gets slower with each "snip" of the scissors, making it harder to get out of it. If it's a long affair, both of you will likely be committed to it, because if you decide to just run, you won't have enough speed (or altitude) to get away clean, and, the only way to escape is to turn your tail toward your enemy...which is not what you want to do if you plan on RTBing.

What separates a flat scissors from a rolling scissors is if you add any vertical element to it (which is a *rolling* scissors); if you or your enemy use yo-yos to accentuate any overshoot, that's the rolling part; it usually takes a barrel roll kind of movement to do this; but if you don't have airspeed, picking up the nose is hard to do. I often like to save a few dozen kph of airspeed to do at least one rolling scissor, right when I really want to turn the tables.

How can you tell if you're winning the scissors? Easy. If after a round of breaks, the enemy is farther forward of your wings, you're doing well. If he's further back towards your six, you're losing. If you hear a bang and your fuselage is on fire, you LOST.

Your ultimate goal is to be able to get in your opponent's six and turn the tables on him.

[This message was edited by Stiglr on Thu February 12 2004 at 02:13 PM.]

noshens
02-12-2004, 03:09 PM
and a good track could help http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

StellarRat
02-12-2004, 03:22 PM
Even if you are good at executing the scissors a good shot is going to put some holes in your plane everytime you cut across is his nose, so you still need a lot of luck to survive this situation (assuming he's already behind you.)

XyZspineZyX
02-12-2004, 04:16 PM
Not necessarily. If he has a lot of overtake and isn't expecting the first break, it can ruin the first shot...and as the scissoring gets intense, between keeping the plane from stalling and changing views every half a second or two to keep track of you, he may not have many good firing opportunities. And, as the nose becomes harder and harder to keep up, the planes may crisscross above the flight vector each time.

I find, in the majority of my scissors, no shots are exchanged until one guy or the other fully overshoots...and then it's quickly over.

I have one other trick I use to win the scissors, but I'm not leaking that one. It's too evil and devastating to mention.... muahahahhahahaha.

StellarRat
02-12-2004, 04:23 PM
If he has a lot of overtake and you turn away and ruin his that's a break turn, right? So, for it to develop into the scissors the attacking pilot would have to be foolish enough to give away his energy advantage in a turning fight. The only time I've ended up in scissors is when we were both going same speed or I was slower. But then I just fire a half second burst everytime his wings flip towards my crosshairs and I always get some hits. Of course, I use a P-47 with lots of ammo so I can afford to take crappy shots.

p1ngu666
02-12-2004, 05:07 PM
zen, if u see me on hl or whatever, poke me and ill help u make that vid http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pingu666.etglobalsolution.co.uk/sig/mysig3.jpg

Bearcat99
02-12-2004, 09:35 PM
Depending on the plane and how fast you are going you could jam your flaps if you extend them so be careful.

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Tully__
02-13-2004, 04:49 AM
There's a very good article on scissors in sims at SimHQ (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html)

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SeaFireLIV
02-13-2004, 05:19 AM
FW190A8, I`m not going to go into detail, Tully`s provided good help, but one thing that`s very important.

KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE OPPONENT! This means you`ll be flipping your view left and right continuously.
You simply cannot succeed in the scissors without doing this, and that IMO is where the hard bit is, because at the same time you`re having to make sure you`re not gonna stall/crash, etc. It may seem obvious, but it actually isn`t. Some new guys i`ve seen will do the scissors madly, but they`re not actually looking BEHIND them. When I started I did the same mistake.

Once I had a continuous view of the opponent I began having my first actual success`, and they were sweeet.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/LAlowblue.jpg

KaiserB_uk
02-13-2004, 05:22 AM
By the by, anyone with TrackIR care to comment on how much it improves SA in these sort of maneuvers?

I'm thinking of getting one but need convincing to part with the cash! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


"There is no such thing as a humble opinion" - Terry Pratchett

flyingskid2
02-13-2004, 08:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Some new guys i`ve seen will do the scissors madly, but they`re not actually looking BEHIND them. When I started I did the same mistake<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hey, are you describing me? actually i used to do scissors blindly too until recently. it was really stupid -- just doing the motions because of reading it somewhere without really having SA.

i've started to get better at it. but still too slow. mousepanning is too slow sometimes to get from one back shoulder to the other. in addition to the mouseview (left thumb on throttle mouse stick) i've re-mapped my joystick hat to pan views. so now i can use the hat to switch views from shoulder to shoulder. problem is i have to hold the hat otherwise it returns the view to center. i have to find a way to program my stick to "snap and stay" at specific views. maybe somebody has already done this for swf22 joystick? much appreciate any tips.

XyZspineZyX
02-13-2004, 09:33 AM
StellarRat wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If he has a lot of overtake and you turn away and ruin his that's a break turn, right? So, for it to develop into the scissors the attacking pilot would have to be foolish enough to give away his energy advantage in a turning fight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Foolish enough or *greedy* enough. But it happens. Also, the attacker might not know how to extend away and reset....not everyone knows how to boom and zoom...and, most like the turnfight (dweebs though they be...) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As for "turning away" to avoid, yes, that's a break turn as well, but that's not preferable to turning into an enemy. If you turn into an attack, you do risk taking hits, but think of the long view: turning in increases angle off and gains the defender angles. Turning away merely shows more of your 6:00 to the attacker; you might survive *this* pass more easily, but you've made it much less likely to survive the next one.

And, as many are discovering, maintaining visuals are KEY to success in the scissors. Each reversal is an exercise in timing; you can't rely on guesses. I'm sure Track IR would be an aid to this (and padlock sometimes a detriment), but I have few problems with a hat. Mouseview, I'd think, is just too "sensitive" for this kind of viewing (one reason why a hat is much better for viewing than mouselook)

If I do have visual problems in a scissors, it's because the enemy is winning and getting to blind spots. That's what I'm doing if *I'm* winning.

Dnmy
02-13-2004, 09:46 AM
Here's a trk:

http://members.home.nl/dnme/tracks/FB/scissors.zip

Made it a bit longer than nescessary coz the idea was to show the scissors.

GT182
02-13-2004, 10:50 AM
I have a Tracker IR2 and it's the best investment I've made since buying my Cougar HOTAS and CH Pro rudder pedals. It's like sitting in a REAL cockpit now, you can see so much more so much easier. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

You will not be disappointed. Your flying willl improve. Don't jump right into a dogfight the first time you use it and expect great things to happen. Just be patient and practice with it all you can. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"GT182" / "vonSpinmeister"
www.bombs-away.net (http://www.bombs-away.net)
"Fly to Survive, Survive to Fly"

fw190a8
02-13-2004, 11:18 AM
Hi guys, thanks a lot for all your feedbacks and comments. It's very helpful and educational.

BTW, how do I initiate a Barrel Roll to add vertical movement in a rolling scissors? Rudder input together with aileron input? How about throttle control and dive and climb?

Would someone explain it to me?

Dnmy
02-13-2004, 11:26 AM
Don't fixate on getting the maneuvers right.

Rather fix your view on the bandit. Then fly where his guns can't hit you. That can be difficult enough already.

(Vertical movement is added with elevator)

A.K.Davis
02-13-2004, 11:44 AM
Sadly, this maneuver in the FB world is less about flying and shooting skill than about view-control skill (or technology). Just concentrate on keeping the enemy in view and accept that some people are going to have a better view system than you and win this type of fight no matter how well you fly. Good luck!

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

Dnmy
02-13-2004, 11:56 AM
Flying skill is the least important. Always was. Historically.

Shooting and situational awareness, those 2 are king. The rest is secondary.

You can be the hottest "flying skill" pilot. But you'll die just the same against the dweeb you didn't see.

XyZspineZyX
02-13-2004, 11:59 AM
AK Davis:

Why "sadly"? You're misplacing your priorities in skills for survival in this environment.

You can't kill what you can't/never see. In ANY situation, not just scissors.

It's not about yanking/banking. Putting oneself in position to "have an easy shot" is what it's about. And the first step to that is to see the enemy before he sees you...and to keep Situational Awareness.

To answer the question about adding a vertical component to the scissors; this is done with a combination of aileron (for roll) and elevator (to pull the nose up and down) and even rudder. You're usually not going to be doing perfectly symetrical rolls, which is why the "barrel roll" phrase is more operative than "aileron roll"

A.K.Davis
02-13-2004, 12:47 PM
You miss my point. We're not all on even footing with view system, nor does the view system of this simulation (and sims in general) have much to do with real life. Tracking a object in close proximity to you with your eyes and head is a natural, instinctive skill. It requires no training or practice. We can all (assuming normal vision) follow a tennis ball through the air with our eyes, but only some of us can connect physically with that tennis ball. Spotting an object is different. Skill plays a much larger role. Thus mastering your view system for tracking becomes more important, and can also be an insurmountable obstacle for some. I don't recall any WWII pilots moving their heads with their thumbs, or viewing the world at 1024x768 pixels and 20 fps. Because of this, an excessive emphasis is put on artificial tracking skill, technology, etc. in this sort of engagement. Padlock provides the only realistic approximation of the type of natural tracking such a close fight in real life would necessitate, but unfortunately it comes with a lot of unrealistic baggage, as we all know.

Without padlock, scissor fights are often lost online because someone fumbles with their thumbhat, has a screen pause, or is unable to see a bandit because of a canopy bar. This has nothing to do with reality.

Tracking in FB is half skill and half technology. Consequently, a scissors fight is often about 1/4 skill, 1/4 technology, and 1/2 luck.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

[This message was edited by A.K.Davis on Fri February 13 2004 at 11:56 AM.]

SeaFireLIV
02-13-2004, 12:59 PM
I understand A K Davis point on this. There are many different ways to view. Some I feel are more advantageous than others.

Many of my squad use TIR and seem to love it.
I use Mouse Look, fine tuned so it goes to the speed I want and a minimum of hand/wrist action. I really haven`t seen the advantage these guys have. The only advantage I think they have is in that it frees up Mouse, joystick view settings for other stuff.

I would like TIR cos turning to look with the head is natural, but the benefits are minimal.(Still even a minmal advantage is an extra edge...)

As for using the Hatswitch, I used to use it at the beginning, but find it extremely limiting for viewing access.

All to their own.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/LAlowblue.jpg

Skullin
02-13-2004, 01:40 PM
NiewView helps alot !
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
02-13-2004, 02:12 PM
I agree with ya, AKDavis.

I figure "being able to see and track" is de rigeur for flying. So, whatever you need to do to do that, be it learning to use a hat (the simplest/cheapest and most intuitive way), relying on padlock (lots of both pros and cons), using mouselook (just not practical, in my opinion), using TrackIR (nice if you can afford it) or some other method, one needs to be comfortable with one's viewing or you're gonna fail in combat no matter what.

flyingskid2
02-13-2004, 02:34 PM
the term "mouselook" is misleading. if you use the mouse (that device that you move around on a mouse pad) yes, that would seem to be impractical to do for viewing. but if you have a mousestick (or trackstick or whatever it's called) on your throttle that can control the mouse, it's a whole other ball game; then you're just using your thumb, not your whole hand. you don't have to move your hand away from the stick or throttle.

having said that, going from one shoulder to another still requires panning your view around almost 270 degrees. (or less if you pan through the up view -- kind of like a high yo-yo). this would still be slower than say trackir which i imagine (i dont' have trackir) allows you to go from shoulder to shoulder instantly. mouseview can be improved if you use a higher sensitivity but then you sacrifice some smoothness in small movement panning.

XyZspineZyX
02-13-2004, 02:50 PM
Using a mousestick or ball is better, sure, but it's still not as "natural" as the other methods. Too much fumbling around to get to where your eyes would naturally gravitate smoothly.

The beauty of the hat switch is that the center of the view is "fixed" on some point, with a known and expected FOV, so you can pretty much choose the right "sector" to look in and get the desired results without much fumbling around. Provided you have a handy "up" modifier, it solves the majority of my viewing needs. I only use the mouse for viewing areas inside the cockpit, or, in the case of Stuka flying, to look through the floor vent (actually, then, I have my 0 keypad key reserved for that).

JG14_Josf
02-13-2004, 03:41 PM
Stiglr,

"Too much fumbling around" is a description of your own lack of dexterity. What is or isn't "Natural" or "Better" is determined by the individual not the program. Simulated perspective is by definition not "Natural" it represents nature in simulation.

I have yet to use a Hat effectively for snap veiws or pan views therefore this method of simulting perspective is both difficult and unnatural for me. This condition has nothing to do with the program and everything to do with my ability to manipulate the controls.

Track IR also requires skill development, it does not allow the pilot to see as he does in nature. It is a step closer than a Hat since much of the same muscles are used to manipulate the perspective (in simulation) as are used in reality.

Your opinion as to which method is better or which ones required too much fumbling around is not mine. Reporting your opinion as fact is an obvious error to someone who does not share your opinion.

I see just fine with my mouse view and your opinions should not deter anyone else from developing this usefull skill. Snap views are in my opinion a huge step backwards from mouse-view or any simulated perspective that allows the user to point his perspective at precisely the spot he intends to see, i.e. the user can move his perspective to center the air speed indicator and return his perspective to center a target he is tracking without having to think about doing this function. Furthermore a target can be centered by the user with command of the controls (not by the program as with Padlock) and the perspective of the gun sight can be seen as a secondary consideration. Targets can be lined up in this manner for those very close in snap shots such as are common during an overshoot.

I suspect that your mind is locked up tight on this subject, and if this is true then this condition would certainly explain your consistant insistance to report your opinion as fact.

SeaFireLIV
02-13-2004, 03:47 PM
On a slightly different note:

has anyone noticed how hard it is to get away with the scissors against AI? Everytime time I try it against them i get sniped, hit until my only option is to turn in circles.

Conversely, I try the same thing on Human players on the net and it`s plain they have much more trouble getting a shot on me, often they never do. You can feel the trouble the Human player is having, trying to predict and get a bead on you.

To me this does reveal the slight `unhuman` aspect of the AI- you cross it`s path even slightly it will auto fire and hit, no indecision, no surprise on its behalf.

It`s not a complaint as such, there are other ways to beat them (barrel rolls seem to work), I know the capabilities of our technology. AI that will act indecisvely and be caught unawares in a Human manner doesn`t exist yet.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/LAlowblue.jpg

StellarRat
02-13-2004, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
On a slightly different note:

has anyone noticed how hard it is to get away with the scissors against AI? Everytime time I try it against them i get sniped, hit until my only option is to turn in circles. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The only advantage the computer has in this game is fast reactions and precision, so it's taking advantage of them in this situation. Throw many variables at it and it loses every time. Too much to calculate, too much to for the programmers to write code for...

XyZspineZyX
02-13-2004, 04:18 PM
Josf sniped:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"Too much fumbling around" is a description of your own lack of dexterity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Says the guy who can't get used to using a hat.

To quote Sly Stone, "Different strokes for different folks. And so on, and so on, and shooby-dooby-dooby"

The reason I say that mouselook is akin to "fumbling around" is, when you move the ball or stick just a little, your view tends to slew up and down a bit, and not along a straight path to where you expect to look. You spend just as much time "adjusting" your view as you spend looking at what you hoped to find there. In the rapidly changing environment of flight, this "little bit" of slewing (and adjusting for it) takes too long.

With the hat, where your view will go to and center on is *known* and expected, more like the effect of your head naturally "gravatating to where your brain tells it to go"; I imagine a person well trained in TrackIR would get the best of both worlds.

Going further, the hat is intuitive, because you need only shift your thumb a mm or so in the direction you want to look to make it happen. Doesn't get more straightforward than that.

Scragbat
02-13-2004, 04:40 PM
Another thing worth mentioning here...
Watch the angle of the tracers that your enemy puts across you during your evasive manouveres. They will always lead back to him http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If you lose track of him, these will give you a clue as to where he currently is. Unless of course those tracers connect and you are Swiss cheese http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

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JG14_Josf
02-13-2004, 05:14 PM
Stiglr,

My intent is to make sure I offer anyone who reads these boards a different opinon so that they can take your opinion for what it is i.e. your opinion. Your opinion is not the truth despite your obvious intent to present it as such.

For example take your words:

"You spend just as much time 'adjusting' your view as you spend looking at what you hoped to fine there."

Who does "You" and "Your" refer to in that sentence?

This is exactly my point. I have much less trouble seeing with mouse view than I ever did with Pan view (used with buttons, not a HAT) so how is it that my opinion and my experience is being reported by you?

I find it difficult to believe that you know my opinion and experience better than I.

If you insist upon thinking that you do know my opinion and experience better than I do myself than so be it. Go on thinking that, but just in case anyone else reading this topic is considering investing the time and energy to develop the mouse view capabilities available in IL2/FB then I hope that they see your error.

The fact, not the opinion, is that mouse view can be a very good tool for simulating perspective movement.

In my opinion, that is to say the opinion of someone who has developed mouse view, the idea of going back to snap views is most certainly a step backwards.

I suspect that track IR users understand the advanges they now have over Snap views and that they too would consider the loss of Track IR as a step backwards.

When flying simulated air combat the advantage of maintaining the target in the center of view becomes obvious when that capability is realized. It is not something that is obvious to someone who does not have the capability to center the target in view, such as what someone limited by Snap views would suffer.

When maneuvering against someone in a close range fight, such as the scissors, the advantage of fluid tracking is obvious and of much value to me with my mouse view capabilities. I can follow the target and track the targets movements relative to my own manuevering without the break of perspective which occurs with snap views. I can even track my perspective in an unbroken direction in anticipation of where the target is likely to go when the target is obscured by my own plane, clouds, the effects of camoflauge, the sun, and any other possible visual obstructions.

When you preach the gospel according to Stiglr I just hope your followers consider the possibility that your ordainment could be counterfeit.

Mouse view can be a huge improvement in viewing capabilities for simulating air combat.

I suspect the same is true about Track IR.

If a new player is just learning how to manipulate the control available in the sim then they may want to consider the advantages of mouse look, Track IR, and any possible improvements over snap views. This falls under the heading of best bang for the buck so to speak. Since the new player must learn something new from the start they might as well consider learning that which works the best.

XyZspineZyX
02-13-2004, 05:16 PM
Like I said, Different Strokes.

GT182
02-13-2004, 05:56 PM
Having a Tracker is only an advantage if you learn how to use it well. Practice is the only way you can master it and your opponent, whether they AI or human. I've only had mine since Christmas and I am still getting used to using it.

The Tracker is easier to use than the micromouse on my Cougar but it can also get you in the same amount of trouble. With the micromouse I'd get all confused on where I was at times and spin or fly into the ground. Also I couldn't get back to foreward view fast enough and when in a DF I'd be so busy that I'd forget about using the Hat to snap back foreward. It's not quite the same with the Tracker but can be just as deadly if you fixate too long on your target. You'll eventually forget where you are to the ground and fly yourself into it.

So it's not all that different than using the Hat or micromouse. It just feels more natural and makes it seem "like" you are sitting in the seat. You can see all there is inside and out faster but not necessarily any better. It's like using only the keyboard to fly and being so used to it, then getting your first joystick. Anyone remember that? Well, the results are the same. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"GT182" / "vonSpinmeister"
www.bombs-away.net (http://www.bombs-away.net)
"Fly to Survive, Survive to Fly"

SeaFireLIV
02-13-2004, 06:15 PM
JG14_Josf,

I fully understand. I personally like using the Mouse and used to use the Hatswitch. No more. I gave up with Stiglr a week ago, he does this all the time. His way is better than anyone elses. I wasn`t gonna say anything, but sometimes his attitude does appear to be trying to alter everyone`s point of view. I intercede to demonstrate that his way is NOT the only way.
He`s a little bit like a more serious version of RBJ.
He`s always like this, you`ll get used to it.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/LAlowblue.jpg

TooCooL34
02-13-2004, 07:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
JG14_Josf,

I fully understand. I personally like using the Mouse and used to use the Hatswitch. No more. I gave up with Stiglr a week ago, he does this all the time. His way is better than anyone elses. I wasn`t gonna say anything, but sometimes his attitude does appear to be trying to alter everyone`s point of view. I intercede to demonstrate that his way is NOT the only way.
He`s a little bit like a more serious version of RBJ.
He`s always like this, you`ll get used to it.

SeaFireLIV...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, right. Agreed.

If someone still wanna try, then go to SimHQ FB forum and look at Muzzle Flash thread. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif



=815=TooCooL34 in =815=Squad, South Korea

--Quick Spec--
WinXP Pro, AthlonXP 2500+, 512DDR, FX5900XT 128MB, two SW pr2, TIR2

surlybirch
02-13-2004, 08:00 PM
Flat scissors are good, BUT....

Last night in a squad match I in my FwA9 went up against two P-47D27s at over 7200 meters. The bad guys had a slight heigth advangtage and we converged. Guy number 2 got around behind me, but he had a lot of speed built up. I broke right, into him then whipped it back to the left.

A scissor fight ensued. I maintained a flat scissor and it became apparant real quick that he wasn't going to be able to stay behind me. On the fourth scissor or so, he pulled a hard arc to try for a deflection, but we met in the middle.

KABOOM. Both craft disentigrate and fall to the French landscape.

Solution: Maybe if I had added a roll to my scissors it would've been less likely for this to happen?

Thoughts from the Aces?

SURLY

http://surlybirch.tripod.com/mudbar.txt

SURLYbirch

JG14_Josf
02-13-2004, 10:15 PM
Just tonight I realized something concerning the scissors. What is being thought about and communicted to others, such as your wingman or wingmen, when a situation occurs as an enemy is obviously approaching a rear hemisphere attack is a description of the prefered maneuver for the sitiation at hand.

Wingmen like to know what their teammates are going to do so as to be at the right place and at the right time when the maneuver is done.

The prefered maneuver for those defensive situations can fall into two basic categories. The defensive manevuer in those situation where the enemy is tracking will either be to run or to force an overshoot.

If the enemy is closing fast then it is often the case where the wingman will report an intent to force an overshoot.

If the enemy is turning hard and burning energy and will not be closing at a fast rate then what is often reported is an intent to run and drag and in addition the wingan will report an intended heading.

Example:

Split S dragging south.

or

Left nose low turn to 330.

When the intent is to overshoot then the one who is in danger will often call out
"Scissors".

The one in danger may not be thinking "How does this maneuver go exactly?" instead the thought proceess is "How can I get out of this guys way and force him out in front"

And

"What am I going to do after the overshoot?"

Slowing down is important.

Avoiding a collision is important.

Getting back on the throttle is important too.

Don't forget to clean up if flaps were deployed.

Turning hard is important.

Going up helps.

A whole lot of rudder input can usually throw off a tracking shot and it helps in slowing down.

Watch out for the cross control stall.

Timing is important, and in order to time the right move it is important to see what is going on.

A wingman can help a whole lot when timing the right move at the right time.

Sometimes it is a good idea to fake your intentions. Slow down with a spiral climb with full rudder and then just as it looks like the enemy is also slowing down then go ahead and deploy flaps to show your intent to slow down even more, but instead of slowing down more pull in the flaps and go straight down for maximum acceleration.

Just when it looks like the guy is fully into the fast race turn the tables and slow up again; hard turns, pitched up, throttle off, flaps out, full rudder.

Another very good way to figure out how the scissors works is to see someone doing a good job forcing an overshoot.

Looking at a scissors fight from the perspective of an attacker the maneuver is done to perfection when the attack is completely spoiled.

The defender seems to know just when to reverse his turn. The guy who does the scissors right leads the attacker into thinking he can turn just a little more to the left to get the shot and boom the turn goes to the right.
If the defender simply turns left then right then left in front of the attacker it is way to obvious and certainly not an effective maneuver.

There are so many variables including relative turn rates, radii, velocity, roll rates, stability, etc. that it occurs to me that to simply understanding that the job at hand is to force the attacker to overshoot is the first consideration. How that overshoot is accomplished is subject to the conditions.

Get out of the attackers way and think at least one step ahead.

StellarRat
02-13-2004, 11:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by surlybirch:
Last night in a squad match I in my FwA9 went up against two P-47D27s at over 7200 meters. The bad guys had a slight heigth advangtage and we converged. Guy number 2 got around behind me, but he had a lot of speed built up. I broke right, into him then whipped it back to the left.

A scissor fight ensued. I maintained a flat scissor and it became apparant real quick that he wasn't going to be able to stay behind me. On the fourth scissor or so, he pulled a hard arc to try for a deflection, but we met in the middle.

KABOOM. Both craft disentigrate and fall to the French landscape.

Solution: Maybe if I had added a roll to my scissors it would've been less likely for this to happen?

Thoughts from the Aces?

SURLY

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My only thought is the P-47s should have just B and Z'ed you to death. I don't know what they were thinking if they scissored with you. Foolish. Never give up energy in a P-47. It's all you've going for you besides lots of bullets and good firepower.

Dnmy
02-14-2004, 12:18 AM
P47's BnZ-ing an A9?

Anyway, a collision can be avoided if you see it coming in time and can do something about it in time. And with a flat scissor you can always keep tally.

So personally i'm not so fond of flat scissors coz that's not making it hard on the attacker to lose you from sight. Plus you lose a lot of speed quickly. I'd rather go for a vertical scissors or rolling scissors, where you have more chance to disappear into blind spots (below the attackers nose). The moment that happens is when you quickly reverse in the opposite direction (e.g. from down to up). Then you repeat as nescessary. Ofcourse, on no cockpit games you gotta think of something else http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dnmy
02-14-2004, 12:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Tracking a object in close proximity to you with your eyes and head is a natural, instinctive skill. It requires no training or practice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is true in real life.

But not true in a sim.

Every method of looking around in a sim requires practice to become familiar/proficient with it. But even though it requires practice, i don't consider looking around, or being able to track objects, a skill.

It's a nescessity though.

Ketalar
02-14-2004, 07:32 AM
Dnmy:
Really nice track! Impressive headwork and employment of the scissors. (I would've made the mistake to try to finish it sooner, you just kept on going and nailed the bogey!)

Dnmy
02-14-2004, 07:49 AM
Thx but it's rather the opposite.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It would be best to try to finish it sooner (i.e. if you can shoot the bandit, don't hesitate)

It's just that for a better picture of the scissors i protracted the fight intentionally. That could be explained as a mistake, only in this case it was intentional.

Diablo_310th
02-14-2004, 08:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
On a slightly different note:

has anyone noticed how hard it is to get away with the scissors against AI? Everytime time I try it against them i get sniped, hit until my only option is to turn in circles.

Conversely, I try the same thing on Human players on the net and it`s plain they have much more trouble getting a shot on me, often they never do. You can feel the trouble the Human player is having, trying to predict and get a bead on you.

To me this does reveal the slight `unhuman` aspect of the AI- you cross it`s path even slightly it will auto fire and hit, no indecision, no surprise on its behalf.

It`s not a complaint as such, there are other ways to beat them (barrel rolls seem to work), I know the capabilities of our technology. AI that will act indecisvely and be caught unawares in a Human manner doesn`t exist yet.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/LAlowblue.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah i noticed that last night Seafire.....I was in QMB and tried it and it never came close to working....go online and I can do either a rolling or horizontal scissors and it works alot of times. The AI is just too smart I guess

Dnmy
02-14-2004, 09:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fw190a8:
BTW, how do I initiate a Barrel Roll to add vertical movement in a rolling scissors? Rudder input together with aileron input? How about throttle control and dive and climb?

Would someone explain it to me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's a simple to understand concept for a crude barrel roll:

If you're flying straight and level, pick an imaginary point on the horizon and draw an imaginary circle around that point with the gunsight, while you keep looking at that point.

The same kinda applies for making a barrel roll while looking backwards. Except that during the drawing of the imaginary circle you may need to shift your view from left to right shoulder view or vice versa. And you don't have the gunsight as reference.