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View Full Version : Not calling for a nerf, but Conqueror needs a buff!



Andyfrom93
02-20-2017, 01:08 AM
Anyone else find that he is lower tier among all heroes at the moment? Even revenge build are really bad at 108.

Ephemiel
02-20-2017, 01:13 AM
This is why we need a downvote option.

Felis_Menari
02-20-2017, 01:33 AM
Conqueror is has the strongest defenses in the game. His offense isn't as strong as others, but it's gotta be that way to balance things out.

gssholly
02-20-2017, 01:36 AM
In a Conqueror you can block for days against other people and then you get them with a guard break then a heavy blow. Dry, rinse, repeat, kill.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 01:40 AM
If anything, he's one of the chars the needs some stamina tweaks and higher cost for bash

Knight_Gregor
02-20-2017, 01:54 AM
If anything, he's one of the chars the needs some stamina tweaks and higher cost for bash

That's just absurd. Have you seen the warden bash spam? His counter bash and guard break spam is the ONLY recourse for that strategy.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 02:00 AM
That's just absurd. Have you seen the warden bash spam? His counter bash and guard break spam is the ONLY recourse for that strategy.

Now that's absurd. Yes I have and I argue for increased stamina cost for him too and the removal of the ability to cancel into guard break from the precedent set with the warlord

Arguing the the ability to consecutively abuse a mechanic that also grants you free hits if pining your enemy against an object has anything to do with strategy is what is absurd here. Not to mention the area control it provides in duel gamemodes.

Sure, leave the mechanic as is, but remove the cheap spam ability by increasing stamina cost. A fighting game with almost no stamina economy needed for these types of low risk high reward abusable skill. Do it 5 times while attacking in between before draining your stamina. Strategy? lol Be reasonable

PanzerShrekonin
02-20-2017, 02:01 AM
If anything, he's one of the chars the needs some stamina tweaks and higher cost for bash

If anything, you need to rethink how you are fighting him. He's one of the least played characters right now in 1 v 1's and 2 v 2's.

Dont know about 4 v 4 as I dont give a damn about that cluster**** of a game mode but hes rarely played. He's not as good as you think he is. He's easy to counter.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 02:05 AM
If anything, you need to rethink how you are fighting him. He's one of the least played characters right now in 1 v 1's and 2 v 2's.

Dont know about 4 v 4 as I dont give a damn about that cluster**** of a game mode but hes rarely played. He's not as good as you think he is. He's easy to counter.

I don't have any problem with him atm tbh, maybe haven't met a good enough conqueror. I have good input dexterity. Am always counting and ready to side dodge his bash. But being able to pin you unrelentlessly against an object if first bash hits and do it around 5 times has nothing to do with skill or strategy I'm sorry. You don't need to struggle with a given tactic or mechanic to me able to comment and critic objectively on it.

The ability to repeat it while spending to little stamina doesn't play too well into risk/reward tbh

Edit: As for the end bit.

This game should be thought out and balanced according to duel. Objective modes have gear stats and char traits to help balance the rest.

PanzerShrekonin
02-20-2017, 02:06 AM
I don't have any problem with him atm tbh, maybe haven't met a good enough conqueror. I have good input dexterity. Am always counting and ready to side dodge his bash. But being able to pin you unrelentlessly against an objective if first bash hits and do it around 5 times has nothing to do with skill or strategy I'm sorry. You don't need to struggle with a given tactic or mechanic to me able to comment and critic objectively on it.

The ability to repeat it while spending to little stamina doesn't play too well into risk/reward tbh

Then he's going to need a major buff if you take that away from him. I would actually like to see a good damage increase on his fully charged heavy.
The shield bash into heavy attack and rinse repeat is his only "combo" and its one thats easily telegraphed/Dodged.

I mean he's a ****ty class to be fair, even though I am very good with him. 80-86% winrate and a 3.0-3.6 KDR

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 02:11 AM
Then he's going to need a major buff if you take that away from him. Its his only "combo" and its one thats easily telegraphed/Dodged.

I mean he's a ****ty class to be fair, even though I am very good with him. 80-86% winrate and a 3.0-3.6 KDR

Stats like those mean little to nothing I regret to say. As long as MMR is like it is and players are able to farm K/D and W/L ratios against bots or just save them from decreasing via rage quit, bringing up those means nothing.

Getting back on point, he's not the only char with short move sets and his strong suit isn't even the ability to overly bash. Not saying the bash should go. The ability to harass it and risk going into it whenever is what needs changing to favor timed skilled input.

He has very good counters, very easy to parry with, very hard to be parried, a charged quick heavy that is a noob and assassin stomper. C'mon, a good conqueror doesn't even need to depend on the corner bash spam. And he would still be incredibly punishable if only able to do it a max 3 times. Only also a lot fairer.

VoadorHolandes
02-20-2017, 02:21 AM
I feel like i'm taking crazy pills here. Five times before he's out of stamina? Hard to parry? :confused:

Knight_Gregor
02-20-2017, 02:24 AM
Stats like those mean little to nothing I regret to say. As long as MMR is like it is and players are able to farm K/D and W/L ratios against bots or just save them from decreasing via rage quit, bringing up those means nothing.

Getting back on point, he's not the only char with short move sets and his strong suit isn't even the ability to overly bash. Not saying the bash should go. The ability to harass it and risk going into it whenever is what needs changing to favor timed skilled input.

He has very good counters, very easy to parry with, very hard to be parried, a charged quick heavy that is a noob and assassin stomper. C'mon, a good conqueror doesn't even need to depend on the corner bash spam. And he would still be incredibly punishable if only able to do it a max 3 times. Only also a lot fairer.

I'm not saying that spammable abilities similar to the bash are ideal for a game like this. But if we're talking about removing or limiting them, it needs to be done across the board. Not with this conqueror prejudice.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 02:25 AM
yep yep.. give or take 1 time since I don't play him that much. And all heroes considered yes hard to parry.

Are you l33t god tier?!

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 02:32 AM
I'm not saying that spammable abilities similar to the bash are ideal for a game like this. But if we're talking about removing or limiting them, it needs to be done across the board. Not with this conqueror prejudice.

No conqueror prejudice whatsoever. Already argued in favor of the same thing happening for warden for example. Just wasn't trying to derail the thread and yes. Accross the board and across similar freely given skills that don't even require previous hit to connect. Or rework the mechanic, which is a dangerous discussion to go into to.

But ability to overly rely on this and abuse them should be looked in and I'd be comfortable with a more decent stamina economy and skilled timed gameplay tbh

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 02:35 AM
I feel like i'm taking crazy pills here. Five times before he's out of stamina? Hard to parry? :confused:

Just tested. 20+ shield bashes without attacking

6 shield bashes + heavy attacks + a last shield bash before draining the stamina bar

5 heavies with 4/5 shield ripostes

4 straight bashes from full guard stance


Seems fair. Not too much! ;)

Knight_Gregor
02-20-2017, 02:48 AM
If only there were a sidestep mechanic. What ever would be do?

Look, I agree that spamming the bash shouldn't be possible. For any class. But you're making it seem a lot safer than it really is. There isn't a single good conqueror that will sit and spam the bash, because it's just not safe. Plain and simple. If you can't sidestep or bait it, that's your problem.

Sakinahz
02-20-2017, 02:48 AM
The problem is his shield bash abuse is about the only way he has to deal good damage.i understand he his suposed to have low offensive since he has arguably the best defense in the game but if you remove his shield bash abuse he has nothing to work with.His lights are somewhat slow and as of right now gives you a free GB if blocked,his heavy are slow enough to be parried and cannot be feinted and if he charges his heavy you can just wait it out or bait his attempt at a parry.Conquerer needs a small rework.id be all for increasing his shield bash stamina cost if you give him at least a little something to work with offensivly.Even tho he his described as a ''hard hitter'' said hits are useless if he has to charge them up so it can be seen coming from a mile away.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 03:05 AM
If only there were a sidestep mechanic. What ever would be do?

Look, I agree that spamming the bash shouldn't be possible. For any class. But you're making it seem a lot safer than it really is. There isn't a single good conqueror that will sit and spam the bash, because it's just not safe. Plain and simple. If you can't sidestep or bait it, that's your problem.

I'm not making it seem anything. I'm pretty much discussing the base mechanic and stamina cost. Nothing else and nothing more. Don't straw man my post pls!

Knight_Gregor
02-20-2017, 03:17 AM
But being able to pin you unrelentlessly against an object if first bash hits and do it around 5 times has nothing to do with skill or strategy I'm sorry.

This is just not possible. You can sidestep each and every bash including sequential ones after the first has hit.. You cannot. I repeat - CAN NOT be pinned against an object by his bash repeatedly.


He has very good counters, very easy to parry with, very hard to be parried, a charged quick heavy that is a noob and assassin stomper. C'mon, a good conqueror doesn't even need to depend on the corner bash spam. And he would still be incredibly punishable if only able to do it a max 3 times. Only also a lot fairer.

Which is it - incredibly punishable or extremely unfair? You can't have it both ways.


Just tested. 20+ shield bashes without attacking

6 shield bashes + heavy attacks + a last shield bash before draining the stamina bar

5 heavies with 4/5 shield ripostes

4 straight bashes from full guard stance


Seems fair. Not too much! ;)



I'm not making it seem anything. I'm pretty much discussing the base mechanic and stamina cost. Nothing else and nothing more. Don't straw man my post pls!

Whatever you say. ;)

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 03:31 AM
This is just not possible. You can sidestep each and every bash including sequential ones after the first has hit.. You cannot. I repeat - CAN NOT be pinned against an object by his bash repeatedly.



Which is it - incredibly punishable or extremely unfair? You can't have it both ways.






Whatever you say.


Whenever you hit an object from being bashed or pushed against it you have an added recovery time penalty, stamina penalty and may even get stunned depending on the hero that pushes you.

This allows for the conqueror to guarantee hit you with a heavy after bash and follow up with another bash that will connect if against a corner. Do try it out for yourself. Assassin may be able to side dodge it in these circumstances being that they require very low timing to successfully dodge, most characters won't. But sure, it's possible but still a very skilled and precise timed dodge considering the circumstances whereas for the conqueror very high reward and close to no risk since the opponent even if dodge will hardly have stamina to counter and punish him due to the already mentioned mechanics. Anyway, having less 1 shield bash with hit combo would be fair, no matter how much the idea bothers you.


The rest is pretty much debating class characteristics and stamina cost values, objectively I may add. Not being prejudicial or aiming to complain specifically against this character, rather than abusive mechanics that have to low of a stamina cost and are too beneficial for some chars if used in the right circumstances. So yes, you trying to turn this around as a hate complain against Conqueror is a straw man.

Not being objective to also critic and discuss the specifics is largely what's wrong with the community atm. If this were a reddit post I'd be downvoted just because you didn't agree with me. Bottom line is, why even frequent a forum if not willing to discuss things in a civil and reasonable way while using concrete values and points instead of vaguely counter arguing?

No discussion to be had here, obviously.

Cheers buddy

Knight_Gregor
02-20-2017, 03:34 AM
Whenever you hit an object from being bashed or pushed against it you have an added recovery time penalty, stamina penalty and may even get stunned depending on the hero that pushes you.

This allows for the conqueror to guarantee hit you with a heavy after bash and follow up with another bash that will connect if against a corner. Do try it out for yourself. Assassin may be able to side dodge it in these circumstances being that they require very low timing to successfully dodge, most characters won't. But sure, it's possible but still a very skilled and precise timed dodge considering the circumstances whereas for the conqueror very high reward and close to no risk since the opponent even if dodge will hardly have stamina to counter and punish him due to the already mentioned mechanics. Anyway, having less 1 shield bash with hit combo would be fair, no matter how much the idea bothers you.


The rest is pretty much debating class characteristics and stamina cost values, objectively I may add. Not being prejudicial or aiming to complain specifically against this character, rather than abusive mechanics that have to low of a stamina cost and are too beneficial for some chars if used in the right circumstances. So yes, you trying to turn this around as a hate complain against Conqueror is a straw man.

Not being objective to also critic and discuss the specifics is largely what's wrong with the community atm. If this were a reddit post I'd be downvoted just because you didn't agree with me. Bottom line is, why even frequent a forum if not willing to discuss things in a civil and reasonable way while using concrete values and points instead of vaguely counter arguing?

No discussion to be had here, obviously.

Cheers buddy

Your information about the bash, recovery time, and follow-up hits is erroneous.

forrest0755
02-20-2017, 03:44 AM
Definitly not. Conquerer is already one of the tougher ones to fight. Most classes dont need a buff, maybe give Raider a bit more stanima, but that is it.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 03:45 AM
Your information about the bash, recovery time, and follow-up hits is erroneous.

Wow. How vague can one be? Will you elaborate?

teksuo1
02-20-2017, 03:49 AM
i don't know, i was watching fairlight_excalibur & sxyhxy on twitch the other day with their maxed out conqs and it really looked OP as hell. dumping people in ditches everywhere and spamming some kind of shield bash+heavy looked really strong/fun.

they both looked like 4+ kills to 1 death ratio.

i'm still reluctant to try him because i noticed he has a (RS down +X) somewhere in his moveset. (feels very weird on the classic xbox controller.)

Knight_Gregor
02-20-2017, 03:54 AM
Wow. How vague can one be? Will you elaborate?

What do you want frame data from me? Let me elaborate: You're wrong. Incorrect. Not right. Mistaken.

There is the initial stun after being slammed (or thrown) into a wall, just like when every other character throws you into a wall. After ANY character knocks you into a wall they will get a free heavy.

However - after that heavy a follow-up bash can be sidestepped. And a heavy immediately after a bash can be blocked. It happens to me all the time.

I'm not saying the conqueror needs a buff. I'm not saying the ability spam doesn't get old. But the false information needs to stop.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 04:02 AM
What do you want frame data from me? Let me elaborate: You're wrong. Incorrect. Not right. Mistaken.

There is the initial stun after being slammed (or thrown) into a wall, just like when every other character throws you into a wall. After ANY character knocks you into a wall they will get a free heavy.

However - after that heavy a follow-up bash can be sidestepped. And a heavy immediately after a bash can be blocked. It happens to me all the time.

I'm not saying the conqueror needs a buff. I'm not saying the ability spam doesn't get old. But the false information needs to stop.

Lol, wow. great attitude.

Never said that heavy after bash without the added recovery from hitting an object wasn't blockable. did mention this pretty clearly and said multiple times right circumstances.

I know ppl view assassins as the norm from their huge usage but the rest of the roster need timed dodges, and against a conqueror after a ; bash > wall hit stagger > heavy hit > bash ; will require a timed dodge (different from a normal dodge) do successfully counter. Never said it was guaranteed. Did however say it was high skill to counter when compared to the high reward low risk for the conqueror, also said the opponent when doing this wouldn't have sufficient stamina to punish the conqueror and finally added that it's a fine mechanic but a bit abusable and could have a bit higher stamina cost so he could connect one less shield bash before running out of stamina.

Where was I exactly "wrong, incorrect, mistaken" ? Other than you defending your class just because.

It's forums nowadays, however is the loudest is clearly right! Kudos

Knight_Gregor
02-20-2017, 04:10 AM
Lol, wow. great attitude.

Never said that heavy after bash without the added recovery from hitting an object wasn't blockable. did mention this pretty clearly and said multiple times right circumstances.

I know ppl view assassins as the norm from their huge usage but the rest of the roster need timed dodges, and against a conqueror after a ; bash > wall hit stagger > heavy hit > bash ; will require a timed dodge (different from a normal dodge) do successfully counter. Never said it was guaranteed. Did however say it was high skill to counter when compared to the high reward low risk for the conqueror, also said the opponent when doing this wouldn't have sufficient stamina to punish the conqueror and finally added that it's a fine mechanic but a bit abusable and could have a bit higher stamina cost so he could connect one less shield bash before running out of stamina.

Where was I exactly "wrong, incorrect, mistaken" ? Other than you defending your class just because.

It's forums nowadays, however is the loudest is clearly right! Kudos

You can play passive aggressive all you want. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings with my capitalized and emboldened words.

The dodge mechanic is there for a reason. There are plenty of other classes that force you to use it, even a "Different," Timed," dodge as opposed to the idle, indifferent dodges. I respectfully disagree with your statements.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 04:13 AM
You can play passive aggressive all you want. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings with my capitalized and emboldened words.

The dodge mechanic is there for a reason. There are plenty of other classes that force you to use it, even a "Different," Timed," dodge as opposed to the idle, indifferent dodges. I respectfully disagree with your statements.

This is you being respectful. Before it was you being obnoxious, so I assumed the same persona in return.

Still hardly see where I was wrong or mistaken in my statements. Sure disagree, it's your god given right and thankfully so. Still doesn't meet a decent and fair risk/reward ratio and you will drain stamina from your opponent faster than you spend your own etc...

Leaving it as is in terms of mechanics while increasing the cost slightly so the conqueror could do 1 less attack to bash spam would be reasonable and fair, and I failed to get a single argument from you the would suggest otherwise

Knight_Gregor
02-20-2017, 04:23 AM
This is you being respectful. Before it was you being obnoxious, so I assumed the same persona in return.

Still hardly see where I was wrong or mistaken in my statements. Sure disagree, it's your god given right and thankfully so. Still doesn't meet a decent and fair risk/reward ratio and you will drain stamina from your opponent faster than you spend your own etc...

Leaving it as is in terms of mechanics while increasing the cost slightly so the conqueror could do 1 less attack to bash spam would be reasonable and fair, and I failed to get a single argument from you the would suggest otherwise

OK. Let's say hypothetically that this change happened. What would you really accomplish? You're talking about adding a arbitrary stamina cost to a highly unsafe move.
I'm really sorry you're having a hard time with his bash. Most people I play against don't. From reading your posts it sounds like you should focus on stamina control and timing the sidestep better. The bash is absolutely more dangerous for a conqueror to spam than not.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 05:00 AM
OK. Let's say hypothetically that this change happened. What would you really accomplish? You're talking about adding a arbitrary stamina cost to a highly unsafe move.
I'm really sorry you're having a hard time with his bash. Most people I play against don't. From reading your posts it sounds like you should focus on stamina control and timing the sidestep better. The bash is absolutely more dangerous for a conqueror to spam than not.

It would reduce the ability to area control narrow walkways for such a long amount of times and combos, specially fair for duels.
It would reduce how punishing he can be, from a low risk high reward spam combo, in certain match ups when pining the opponent against a wall/object
It would probably reduce the ability of draining an opponents stamina via bash while keeping your own
It would promote a more skilled, timing required, opportunist and stamina economy gameplay

And I'll say again, I argue against all similar mechanics in this game that promote repetition low risk high reward play while not having enough of a stamina cost. Conqueror is not the only one and probably the least problematic of them all. Still fits into what I deem unfair and to not have a decent risk/reward ratio as everything in a fighting game should have.

Why the hell does anyone discussing a mechanic need to have a hard time dealing with it to be even talking about it? omfg. seriously, what's the relation? logic?

I already said I actually don't have an issue atm, maybe I haven't fought a worthy conqueror yet, he is never used at my MMR. But this doesn't invalidate my reasoning or my ability to be objective and judge the game in it's whole and mechanics as I see them while supporting my opinion with clear and thought out arguments. Seriously.

Now that I've answered your question. Please tell me what would he lose for having a slight stamina increase? (not an arbitrary increase, one that will bring his bash ability by 1 count) (him and the warden and probably the warlord and maybe even lawbringer valkyrie but since I haven't looked in close enough or even faced them I'll refrain from commenting on the last 2)

Specially considering how "easy counterable it is", which depends a lot on the situation and match up and how "dangerous it is" That will still allow him to defend unless hit by a side-dodge combo, that he can still tech break if opponent dodges and goes for GB.

Be reasonable, bringing down the ability by 1 count would only remove a bit spamming and area control capibility while keeping the class solid and still strong.

GnGoons
02-20-2017, 06:10 AM
lmfao! The Conq is my main and just fine! A buff LMFAO!

gringojay
02-20-2017, 07:51 AM
put your handbags down girls, I play as conqueror and I have know idea what you're talking about. Stamina runs out reaaaallly fast when you're doing shield bash attacks. That is all.

I haven't played many other classes but I don't think a buff is necessary. If your opponent is bad enough you can infinitely spam fast light attacks, whilst doing a small amount of damage when they are blocked (feat.R Kelly), plus you've got blox for days, you just need to get good at the guard break counter, since that seems to be most peoples solution for the conqueror. I wanted to play all the classes but haven't been able to stop playing my conq, happily bashing in any heads that cross my path

Aeecto
02-20-2017, 09:13 AM
It would reduce the ability to area control narrow walkways for such a long amount of times and combos, specially fair for duels.
It would reduce how punishing he can be, from a low risk high reward spam combo, in certain match ups when pining the opponent against a wall/object
It would probably reduce the ability of draining an opponents stamina via bash while keeping your own
It would promote a more skilled, timing required, opportunist and stamina economy gameplay

And I'll say again, I argue against all similar mechanics in this game that promote repetition low risk high reward play while not having enough of a stamina cost. Conqueror is not the only one and probably the least problematic of them all. Still fits into what I deem unfair and to not have a decent risk/reward ratio as everything in a fighting game should have.

Why the hell does anyone discussing a mechanic need to have a hard time dealing with it to be even talking about it? omfg. seriously, what's the relation? logic?

I already said I actually don't have an issue atm, maybe I haven't fought a worthy conqueror yet, he is never used at my MMR. But this doesn't invalidate my reasoning or my ability to be objective and judge the game in it's whole and mechanics as I see them while supporting my opinion with clear and thought out arguments. Seriously.

Now that I've answered your question. Please tell me what would he lose for having a slight stamina increase? (not an arbitrary increase, one that will bring his bash ability by 1 count) (him and the warden and probably the warlord and maybe even lawbringer valkyrie but since I haven't looked in close enough or even faced them I'll refrain from commenting on the last 2)

Specially considering how "easy counterable it is", which depends a lot on the situation and match up and how "dangerous it is" That will still allow him to defend unless hit by a side-dodge combo, that he can still tech break if opponent dodges and goes for GB.

Be reasonable, bringing down the ability by 1 count would only remove a bit spamming and area control capibility while keeping the class solid and still strong.

And there's the problem... you see him just like every other hero.
But he needs to be punishing if you make a mistake... that's his role on the battlfield... defend and wait for a mistake and punish your opponents for it.
His entire skillset is even build around that playstyle... that's why he is still in blocking stance while charging his heavy and has one free block.
And don't talk about bashs being op... they're far from it and easy to dodge, even getting pushed into a wall he has only 1 free hit and the second bash is dodgeable.
The bash even drains stamina like crazy if used after heavy. The light bashs after dodge or feint don't , but they aren' t a free heavy hit afterwards, only a light... and for gb they're too far away.

Jarnhand
02-20-2017, 09:29 AM
Anyone else find that he is lower tier among all heroes at the moment? Even revenge build are really bad at 108.

If you are serious, and not a troll, let me break it to you: you are utterly clueless about this game and need to go back to Mario games.
I am not a good player, and I do also 'whine' on boards, but seriously...
I am sorry, I am not trying to flame you, but someone need to break it to you, pure and simple.
Basicly every of the Knight classes are powerful, Samurai are mostly good, Vikings have 3 low tier classes and 1 good. If this game had been pure faction vs faction Vikings would already have been loosing all land.

PanzerShrekonin
02-20-2017, 09:32 AM
After finally fighting two people today who KNOW about the fact you get a free guardbreak after a parry, Im putting down the reigns of the conq. It was entirely pointless to play the conq againt them.


it's time I actually pick up a character that's good. I always knew the conq was bad and I have an amazing w/l and KDR On him but.. it's pointless to play a character that if you KNOW about him, he's literally just food for you. Parry into a free guardbreak. Thats nuts....


So it was with a solemn farewell that I put down the conq for good and pick up someone else... maybe Orochi...

Kensei sucks. Conq sucks. Warden's executions are boring, Warlord is meh...

Raider is fun but sucks.

Valk is meh.

Lawbringer sucks.

PK looks boring.

Shugoki is easily countered by any light class.

Lawbringer is fun but since he is so reliant on the guardbreak, he sucks against any good player. Long arm of the law is also extremly hard to ever pull off lol.



im really just stuck with Orochi and Kense, even though hes not great.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 09:53 AM
And there's the problem... you see him just like every other hero.
But he needs to be punishing if you make a mistake... that's his role on the battlfield... defend and wait for a mistake and punish your opponents for it.
His entire skillset is even build around that playstyle... that's why he is still in blocking stance while charging his heavy and has one free block.
And don't talk about bashs being op... they're far from it and easy to dodge, even getting pushed into a wall he has only 1 free hit and the second bash is dodgeable.
The bash even drains stamina like crazy if used after heavy. The light bashs after dodge or feint don't , but they aren' t a free heavy hit afterwards, only a light... and for gb they're too far away.

Did I use the word OP? pls quote.

Opportunistic and timed counter is one thing. Constant bash another.

Anyway constant bash is hardly his playstyle, as you said possible to dodge, but also as you said punishing in the right situation with light guaranteed hits.
If anything I said it didn't meet a decent risk/reward ratio, as everything should in this type of games. Doubt I'm wrong but ok. Your opinion.

If anything what I argued against is the possibility of bashing so many time before stamina drain, argued this not only against the conqueror btw.

Also argued that draining your enemy's stamina by doing so before your own seems ridiculous to me. For you it doesn't, right? M'kay.

Will say again, stamina economy is pretty much inexistent in the game, and the ability of constant repetition of area control skills that are immensely favorable in duel situations, even considering possible counters, seems over the top and goes against what has always been my understanding of similar mechanics within the genre.

Not even discussing team objective game modes. Just basic mechanic in the most basic environment, duel mode.

Things are pretty clear, making the game more skilled input beneficial and opportunistic rather than spam friendly would be great on all accounts and for all chars included. Having to actually worry about stamina and what you're going to be able to do even before you start a chain would add depth to the game and reward skilled timed input playstyles.

Nvm really, no point

Aarpian
02-20-2017, 10:05 AM
Shield bash is probably overpowered, but take it away and conqueror is garbage.
He's very good at playing a battle of attrition, his moveset is very safe, but he will lose almost any trade because of his low damage. This means you have to rely on going aggressive at the right time (when the conqueror goes aggressive) to either trade or stop his damage, or punishing mistakes. On the surface that probably sounds totally unfair if you need to have precognition to get some damage in, but you don't have to get it right very often to take an hp lead.

He's definitely very high tier (I'd put him below shugoki and PK and equal with warlord), but his playstyle is boring as hell since it relies on chucking shield bash almost constantly, though that's more to do with the state of the game as a whole.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 10:42 AM
Shield bash is probably overpowered, but take it away and conqueror is garbage.
He's very good at playing a battle of attrition, his moveset is very safe, but he will lose almost any trade because of his low damage. This means you have to rely on going aggressive at the right time (when the conqueror goes aggressive) to either trade or stop his damage, or punishing mistakes. On the surface that probably sounds totally unfair if you need to have precognition to get some damage in, but you don't have to get it right very often to take an hp lead.

He's definitely very high tier (I'd put him below shugoki and PK and equal with warlord), but his playstyle is boring as hell since it relies on chucking shield bash almost constantly, though that's more to do with the state of the game as a whole.

Never said you should take it away.

If you back up and read my discussion start in this thread, I pretty much went into duel, counted the amount of times you could use the different bash connects and shared them.

I argued that a slight increase in stamina cost so he'd have 1 less bash in his combo moves would be spam, avoid spamming in and increase skilled, timed opportunist game styles. Nothing more.

Also commented on all other bash and repeatable moves while saying the notion of stamina economy in this game is pretty much inexistent. This is all.

Finding it harder and harder to discuss balance and decent risk/reward ratios that promote skilled play over rinse repeat on this forum, either due to "game is perfectly balanced" type of posters or obvious "mains" that will argue against any possible tweak for the worst for their char ignoring the reasoning behind the suggestions. I blame a lot of users not being receptive to many suggestions posted due to lack of experience in the genre, which is no flaw, but still makes reasonable discussion that much harder even in a game the mechanics are simple straightforward and the combos short with very low timing requirements and very forgiving of input error truly passive to mash to match input timing.

Alas, maybe my expectations are set too high. But I would personally change a lot of things

IF_Torbjorn
02-20-2017, 10:52 AM
I play whis my concueror like 5 days, maybe. Do not have any kind of a wish to see it's buff(except that light attack, when your oponent blocks it, he have free GB). Good chains, realy strong defence, pretty good looking character. I am pleased.

And yeah, concueror realy can control opponent position. Very high pressure.

Aarpian
02-20-2017, 10:54 AM
Never said you should take it away.

If you back up and read my discussion start in this thread, I pretty much went into duel, counted the amount of times you could use the different bash connects and shared them.

I argued that a slight increase in stamina cost so he'd have 1 less bash in his combo moves would be spam, avoid spamming in and increase skilled, timed opportunist game styles. Nothing more.

Also commented on all other bash and repeatable moves while saying the notion of stamina economy in this game is pretty much inexistent. This is all.

Finding it harder and harder to discuss balance and decent risk/reward ratios that promote skilled play over rinse repeat on this forum, either due to "game is perfectly balanced" type of posters or obvious "mains" that will argue against any possible tweak for the worst for their char ignoring the reasoning behind the suggestions. I blame a lot of users not being receptive to many suggestions posted due to lack of experience in the genre, which is no flaw, but still makes reasonable discussion that much harder even in a game the mechanics are simple straightforward and the combos short with very low timing requirements and very forgiving of input error truly passive to mash to match input timing.

Alas, maybe my expectations are set too high. But I would personally change a lot of things

I know the feeling guy - most people aren't willing to accept that their opinions might be biased or even that they're flat out factually wrong.

You're right that the shield bash stamina cost is obscenely low and could possibly do with toning down similar to warlord's headbutt, but the 2 moves do present very different decisions for the opponent. I'd rather see a more comprehensive rework after they do something about the obvious superiority of defence for 90% of the roster though, since that's what's leading to the shield bash spam in the first place.
Like you, I'd change a lot of things.

WheepingSong
02-20-2017, 12:11 PM
Conquerer is literally the only class that can 100 to 0 someone with knockdowns while in revenge mode. No dodge, no counter, no nothing....

KUJO_KID
02-20-2017, 07:38 PM
During the Betas all players did was complain about the Warlords headbutt, which is very similar to the conqs bash. Both had great range, both had stupid tracking that would follow some dodges, both drained stam (not entirely sure if this is the conqs stam drain, but I haven't played him since closed beta). From what I've seen the conq has some of the same features that were previously nerfed on the Warlord. It makes no sense to me why they nerfed a feature on one hero but leave the same feature alone on other heroes but that's beyond me. There are several heroes who have this issue (Stam drain/charge/50-50), Valk, Warden, etc, and it definitely needs a looking into.
Anyway, I would love to see the some changes with the conq, but if they do decide to increase his stam costs, they should also increase his damage or something along that line. No hero needs a high stam cost with low damage, that would just push away all of those who play him. I honestly see him as a towering knight who should deal more damage, maybe with a slightly higher stam cost. I would like for the Devs to treat him like a balance between a Shugoki and a Warlord. Take some of the Shugokis damage with some of the versatility of the Warlord, and he would be a great hero, a nice miidle ground is what the heavies need.

Basically, the warlord had a similar problem (abusive moves) and was changed, so it wouldn't be a surprise if the conq was too.

Gensui.Musashi
02-20-2017, 07:45 PM
are you drunken?

Knight_Gregor
02-20-2017, 07:49 PM
I would love to see the conqueror have more mix-ups in exchange for one or two of his bash moves. But it's a little late in the process for a full rework. The conqueror's bash is nowhere near comparable to the warlord's headbutt on windup time alone. People can post all the fluff they want about "Meaningful discussions," and hurt feelings, but talking about things that will never be can derail the thread just as badly as throwing insults and trolling.

What people should be discussing about conqueror is how he is forced to either play the feint/parry game and most likely lose, or spam guard break after each friggin' block. Which leads to a generally unpleasant experience for both sides.

DeaIman
02-20-2017, 07:54 PM
Conqueror does not need a buff, rather as previously mentioned his stamina needs to be tweaked. Compare the conqueror to the Valkyrie, you have this giant guy in armour wielding a rather large shield - who can shield bash for days.

Then you have this supposedly quick and nimble Valkyrie, who can shield bash once to knock her enemy out of her own reach nullifying any potential damage and draining almost all of her stamina in doing so.

That and they more or less have the same attack speed, so no, Conqueror does not need a buff - I think he's in a rather good spot, but his ability to spam his shield bash has to be nerfed. Other than that he's fine. Valkyrie on the other hand, needs a buff - her stamina is broken af.

xXGECKOZXx
02-21-2017, 03:45 PM
You aren't taking into account the increased stamina cost of having your heavies blocked, if all are blocked you take little damage and he only gets three bashes.

Munktor
02-21-2017, 03:50 PM
Just tested. 20+ shield bashes without attacking

6 shield bashes + heavy attacks + a last shield bash before draining the stamina bar

5 heavies with 4/5 shield ripostes

4 straight bashes from full guard stance


Seems fair. Not too much! ;)

And 100% of that is negated with zero stamina cost dodges.