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View Full Version : Serious Balancing issue - What do you have to say about this Ubi?



neogeo___
02-19-2017, 08:06 AM
https://redd.it/5utcwp - x-post u/Kyoj1n ; r/forhonor

For me it's probably the biggest issue in terms of balance, one I've spotted throughout all the tests and that I can't believe hasn't been addressed yet nor is being discussed by the community. Even if you don't play all the classes you'd without a doubt have noticed it playing against them.

One thing is to be able to actively block, another is to be impossible to actively block and have such a disadvantage in some obviously broken match ups, favoring spam over skill and input timing.

Tweaks are desperately needed, duel is pretty much broken less than a week in, matchmaking doesn't help, connection only adds to the problem, but basic mechanics are what need priority fixing. C'mon Ubi.

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 01:05 PM
Honestly surprised.

Serious issue with compelling proof linked provided by u/Kyoj1n on reddit and not a single post acknowledging how unbalanced this is.

Am I being naive by having hope in this community and wanting a balanced roster and mechanics for the future?

TatoRezo
02-19-2017, 01:20 PM
Hey I am a raider main and can understand this more than anyone, I even made threads and frequently commented, but this forums and it's toxic braindead community don't help. So l decided to stick to reddit.

Ragnar---
02-19-2017, 01:25 PM
Honestly surprised.

Serious issue with compelling proof linked provided by u/Kyoj1n on reddit and not a single post acknowledging how unbalanced this is.

Am I being naive by having hope in this community and wanting a balanced roster and mechanics for the future?

This forum just isn't interested in proper discussion about anything that doesn't involve memes or Orochi nerfs.

KindMan2236
02-19-2017, 01:30 PM
how the **** should we know if that is imbalanced when the core mechanics are not working right at the moment? there are more pressing matters than this. Irrelevant what you think.

Another thing what sort of out of the *** measurement is this? If this would be measured in a non ******ed unit.. like frames, i would be more compelled to listen.

And yet another thing. what does it mean? Is a low number bad?
The battlefy tournament was won by a nobushi, and that was close. 3-2 against a warden.
Warden had a close match versus Peacekeeper
Nobushi had a close match versus warlord prior to finals..

So in what way does that have any relevance right now?

Perhaps you need to look at the moving pictures to illustrate to you the differences in block speed.


Warden: 12
Conqueror: 12
Peacekeeper: 13
Lawbringer: 4
Kensei: 13
Shogoki: 4
Orochi: 12
Nobushi: 4
Raider: 4
Warlord: 13
Berserker: 13
Valkyrie: 12

Knights:
https://gfycat.com/AntiqueCourageousFugu
Knights 50% speed:
https://gfycat.com/CheeryPhysicalGreatdane
Vikings:
https://gfycat.com/SilentShortGlobefish
Vikings 50% speed:
https://gfycat.com/MasculineInfantileKingbird
Samurai:
https://gfycat.com/FoolishPaltryAmazondolphin
Samurai 50% speed:
https://gfycat.com/ValidDistortedHuman
And then here are 3 of all the heroes together:
https://gfycat.com/ClosedSecondhandDrever
50% speed:
https://gfycat.com/LastingElaborateLabradorretriever
25% Speed:
https://gfycat.com/CautiousGlitteringGadwall

Now click on the links and you can see clearly some heroes shift block slower than some other heroes, I'm not sure if it's a balancing feature Ubisoft have chosen or it's just a placebo.

kyoj1n
02-19-2017, 01:41 PM
While there hasn't been testing done quite yet on the validity of it I can really only see the reason for this to be in the game so that some characters have a harder time blocking attacks from other characters.

My logic in coming to that conclusion is that I can't find another reason for even having a difference of block speed in the game. If it doesn't matter why did the devs put it in there?

One of the reason I made the post/recorded the evidence was that as a Nobushi I felt I was getting wrecked by Orochi's light attacks coming from all sides. I then saw some people saying that they thought some characters might have slower block speeds, so I tested it.

Tronny666
02-19-2017, 01:48 PM
Oh my god

KindMan2236
02-19-2017, 01:54 PM
thanks for thinkin i am braindead. No. I asked:

So in what way does that have any relevance right now?

I donīt need you to repeat what the op already stated. I want a concrete answer on how that is a problem right now.

"And yet another thing. what does it mean? Is a low number bad? " I was answering your question by providing you with the material to give you the answer. Yes a low number is bad. It's a problem, not sure if it's as important more or less than any other problem but it's one that exists if it does what I think it does, there are issues with the game why should some take priority..? If a bug exists within a game or an issue whatever you want to call it, that issue should be addressed almost immediately and it usually does by other developers, I don't see how waiting for a patch with balance changes has any pertinence to issue resolvement, these should be two different things, issues with the game should take priority and balance changes should be part of bi-weekly or monthly patches.

The developers should set up a bugtracker so that the userbase can check to see whether an issue is being addressed or resolved.

KindMan2236
02-19-2017, 02:15 PM
no one brought any proof that this IS an issue at all. Proof. Now.

It doesn't matter whether it is or isn't an issue or there is any proof that it makes a difference or not because neither you nor me has any proof to cooberate either claim. That doesn't mean you can dismiss it either, the burden of evidence is also on you. I say it'd be quite valuable to keep this thread active so that eventually someone from Ubisoft or the development team could answer this question.

SuperMmeee
02-19-2017, 02:25 PM
Im maining Nobushi and I can clarify that left right spam from assassin is impossible to block if it hits once, the stragger and the guardswitch speed makes sure u will never be able to block again if u try to switch for everyhit, ur only hope is to hold one side and hope he hits there again. Also Im pretty sure this is also happening vs conqueror shieldbash + heavy if the heavy is hit from different direction than ur guard before the shieldbash, again u dont have time to block after the stagger if u have to switch the guard. Now does this have some deep balancing in mind? I dont think so. Nobushi is no way overpowered and has numerous disadvantageous matchups overall. So she most certainly is not in a need of such "balance". Nobushi relies 100% on ur enemy suking, she has no real offensive potential in her kit. Actually lets make this buff Nobushi thread.

Mid_Evil
02-19-2017, 02:34 PM
It doesn't matter whether it is or isn't an issue or there is any proof that it makes a difference or not because neither you nor me has any proof to cooberate either claim. That doesn't mean you can dismiss it either, the burden of evidence is also on you. I say it'd be quite valuable to keep this thread active so that eventually someone from Ubisoft or the development team could answer this question.

Burden of proof is always on the accusers. In this case the OP or anyone supporting this as a problem. You think someone that does not see this an an immediate problem should be giving you proof? Get real man. That's not how any system works.

KindMan2236
02-19-2017, 02:35 PM
No it is not. The game mechanics are like this. So you play with the mechancis the game provides. Simple as that. I donīt have to make a case on why it should stay like it is right now.

They're like this..? Then please provide proof that the way it is right now is an intentional part of the mechanics, provide proof that it doesn't make a difference to the gameplay mechanics, again you don't get to simply dismiss something as an issue if you're not even sure of the nuances of the gameplay mechanics yourself.

Also you're conflating poor block speed with being a poor hero, even if she does have poor block speed that doesn't nessecarily take away from Nobushi being viable. If Ubisoft were to just tell us whether or not these characters having poor block speed is coorelated with them not being able to adjust to changing attack positions then it's not really going to change how I play Lawbringer but it does give us insight about the mechanics of each hero and in the future whether a consideration should be made to change the block speed if it does effect those characters.

Slowthrob
02-19-2017, 02:37 PM
Well, I think this is a subject that should be looked at. I'm not saying that something should be changed, but I do agree on the point that actual spamming is a bit in favor with this mechanic... but only slightly. And I do think balancing things is very hard when you have to take so many things to account at the same time so you wont actually break the game. And yes, there are some things that are more important than this atm, like matchmaking and connectivity, lags, drops etc. And Shugoki.

But screaming and insulting does no good to anyone. So pls. Grow up ryaneko.

Slowthrob
02-19-2017, 02:46 PM
well, ryaneko, you basicly attack anyone who says anything that doesn't fit into how you see the game and how it should be. that's what i meant. it's unnecessary. i think these things should be discussed, and you're not willing to do that. but i don't want to step on your toes. have no beef.

KindMan2236
02-19-2017, 02:46 PM
**** you are right! now i wonder... is it intentional that raiders attack are so slow? can a dev clarify please? Also was it intentional that Peacekeeper runs faster than warlord? Questions and questions..

are you real dude?



where exactly did i insult someone?

I'm not even sure what is there to be so bitter about, it's just questioning about fundemental gameplay mechanics, all it'd take is a moment of the developers time to answer. Or may people only post issues on these forums which you find to be issues..?

Hackfraysn
02-19-2017, 02:50 PM
https://redd.it/5utcwp - x-post u/Kyoj1n ; r/forhonor

For me it's probably the biggest issue in terms of balance, one I've spotted throughout all the tests and that I can't believe hasn't been addressed yet nor is being discussed by the community. Even if you don't play all the classes you'd without a doubt have noticed it playing against them.

One thing is to be able to actively block, another is to be impossible to actively block and have such a disadvantage in some obviously broken match ups, favoring spam over skill and input timing.

Tweaks are desperately needed, duel is pretty much broken less than a week in, matchmaking doesn't help, connection only adds to the problem, but basic mechanics are what need priority fixing. C'mon Ubi.

I seriously can't comprehend how they could screw up this hugely promising new IP so royally. It's almost like they want this game to fail.

Now this confirms what I already felt. This shouldn't have gone live, seriously! Needs urgent fixing!


well, ryaneko, you basicly attack anyone who says anything that doesn't fit into how you see the game and how it should be. that's what i meant. it's unnecessary. i think these things should be discussed, and you're not willing to do that. but i don't want to step on your toes. have no beef.

Don't feed the troll. Just look at what he's writing all the time. Nobody here with half a brain takes him seriously.

Slowthrob
02-19-2017, 02:57 PM
Don't feed the troll. Just look at what he's writing all the time. Nobody here with half a brain takes him seriously.

Sorry, my mistake. :cool:

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 08:27 PM
See. That is something completely different and this can be discussed (well, it doesnīt right now).

you had a suspicion and wanted to verify it. We have different block speeds on all chars. Okay, we donīt now what that means. I think it is a way of balancing, or a potential way in the future, when you can tweak some numbers. I will take that as information and thatīs ok.

--

Now why i am so salty in my first post is this. OP reads something on reddit and wantīs to be the special snowflake that brings a big flaw to the attention of all. A serious issue with compelling evidence. Right. No one proofed this to be an issue right now and no one brought compelling evidence on why this is a serious issue.

done.

lmao, you are salty and have that kind of immature reaction for lack of irl issues to deal with and objective opinion for lack of experience.

I read it on reddit and shared it yes, but I also always noticed the issue, never personally took the time to gather the info like the x-poster did, for which I'm thankful

You have many attack links and situations where the heroes marked as the slowest just won't block even when you input the command. Again actively blocking and correctly inputing commands but some heroes just don't in many situations in certain match ups

Love you posts, your demeanor and your reasoning. Just shows how much you understand! /s

Pretty sure the snowflake here would be you chum. Test it for yourself before calling it out like a douch3hat

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 08:31 PM
Can a poster be more toxic I ask?

And seemingly entitled when apparently knows very little or nothing about what he's so heartfelt discussing? omfg

CoyoteXStarrk
02-19-2017, 08:34 PM
See. That is something completely different and this can be discussed (well, it doesnīt right now).

you had a suspicion and wanted to verify it. We have different block speeds on all chars. Okay, we donīt now what that means. I think it is a way of balancing, or a potential way in the future, when you can tweak some numbers. I will take that as information and thatīs ok.

--

Now why i am so salty in my first post is this. OP reads something on reddit and wantīs to be the special snowflake that brings a big flaw to the attention of all. A serious issue with compelling evidence. Right. No one proofed this to be an issue right now and no one brought compelling evidence on why this is a serious issue.

done.

Are you by any chance mentally disabled?

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 08:39 PM
so it has come to ad hominem.. okay. great discussion. bye.

It comes to, take the toxic attitude and gtfo, honestly. You're the definition of derailing a discussion and honestly what's wrong in any and every community atm, your toxicity. Seriously go bang your head on a wall, it might help getting your thoughts in order ffs

With a fast stance change character I'll block every attack from a berserker infinite chain, with a slow char I'll block every other, because on top of the stance time to switch you have to account for block/hit recovery, and so you take the hits.
I'm the same user, so dexterity would be pretty much the same, specially with repetition, still the issue arises and is obvious.
Just one of the many situation, through experience I could enumerate more.

Not sure about what you're saying? Don't speak as if you were.
Come into the discussion calling others out without going to the trouble of at least trying it out yourself? Simply obnoxious attitude.

Who died and made you king? Seriously, get a life and go rage at whoever did you wrong. lmao.

Bye toxic cancer

CoyoteXStarrk
02-19-2017, 08:46 PM
yeah i rest my case.

So thats a yes.



Everything makes sense now.

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 08:55 PM
Don't feed the troll pls. 333 posts of toxicity I imagine.

However I would like to have this issue somewhat discussed and brought to light since it seriously breaks balance roster and makes it so the in duel modes the meta is short and obvious the higher lvl MMR you're in.

As long as you know which chars are advantageous and which combo or move links are "guaranteed hits" for that match up, you put your opponent in a position where blocking isn't enough, forcing parries in start up chains (mostly light attack chain), timed interrupts or timed dodges just to avoid taking the punishment.

I agree, the stance change speed is somewhat needed for balance (probably not as slow for the disadvantageous chars, and certainly not as fast for the assassin mostly where input mash spam and analog spin on console makes it possible to be unpredictably deadly without skilled and precise input), but all classes should be able to actively block, that's one of the key aspects of the game.
The x-post from reddit shows that in certain matchups, many chars can't actively block, it's not a maybe, it's not a git gud, it's pretty much obvious and the proof very compelling. I'm seriously disappointed. As someone that loves to play the underdog and learn the least used classes, if you're within a high enough MMR you're required a lot more skilled play to overcome just thanks to this poorly thought out detail and mechanic imbalance.

DBLxxShotz
02-19-2017, 09:01 PM
My logic in coming to that conclusion is that I can't find another reason for even having a difference of block speed in the game. If it doesn't matter why did the devs put it in there?


Because a Pks blades are ligher than the lawbringers weapon so easier to move.

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 09:13 PM
Because a Pks blades are ligher than the lawbringers weapon so easier to move.

That user was specifically referring to block speed and not attack speed. The base stance switch should be closer for all classes, the speed in which you can attack and therefor be unpredictable the quicker your chain is, is already unforgiving enough for these high speed everything (reward), low timing (risk) classes. At high lvl play it always puts the risk/reward ration into question.

Although attack speed also needs looking into so the mash input spams and analog spins can't be a reliable tactic, if not for anything else, for the fact that the animation is already quick enough, if you can't even match the guard switch speed of and assassin you are pretty much doomed. Only tactic is to single light attack him as he tries to get closer and defend from his side dodge strikes until he can finally close in the gap and get his starter hit in, then you're doomed to take punishment, get away as early as you can, and the game style will keep being the same for ppl exploiting this mechanic.

This is in fact a serious balance issue that kill the game in the long run and forces certain picks and counter picks because gaming nowadays is all about knowing the advantageous little exploitable details and repeating them to hell until they, and if they, get fixed

UbiVertigo
02-19-2017, 09:20 PM
Please keep personal attacks off the forums.

Hackfraysn
02-19-2017, 09:25 PM
the stance change speed is somewhat needed for balance

On Raider? Are you kidding me? Raider's is not very legendary outside of the campaign and doesn't really excel at anything. Kensei's a good vanguard. Warden is the best. Raider has nothing to offer and is a pushover in competitive play. His slow blockswitch speed is just the icing on the turd cake.


Please keep personal attacks off the forums.

Oh come on. The victim is well known for his toxicity on the forums. He dishes out a lot, so he kinda has to be able to take it, too.

TCTF_SWAT
02-19-2017, 09:27 PM
Could be related to feints and other cancels I suppose.

DanteAres.
02-19-2017, 09:28 PM
block speed + attack speed = reaction time

block speed + attack speed + p2p = bad

block speed + attack speed + p2p + berserker = ;)

Technopium
02-19-2017, 09:28 PM
Not a Balance or Bug Issue... it is intended.

fariic
02-19-2017, 09:33 PM
I'd like an answer to the question about how this is a problem, as well.

I play kensei and I don't have any issue with blocking aside from the block not registering occasionally when it should.

All you guys are saying amounts to "different heroes have different attack speeds, this is a problem."
"Different heroes have different run speeds, this is a problem."
"Different heroes have different play mechanics, this is a problem."

It's part of the game, and you're telling someone who isn't a developer to "prove" that it's how it's supposed to be. I'd say it is proven, because it's how the game functions.

The post wasn't about the OP opinion on how the mechanic works, it was a flat out accusation that it's a "problem".

In my opinion, the problem is operator error. You're blaming the mechanics for your losses. Just like an athlete will blame the refs for their loss. Or how people will blame other for their own shortcomings.

MagicElmo
02-19-2017, 09:40 PM
I just wish people these days would have the capacity to discuss calmly about things like balance issues.
This game has some issues for sure, it's still a highly enjoyable game.
Some good points in the OP for sure.
And it's really only a game in the end. Nothing worth getting upset that much about really.

Vandgarde
02-19-2017, 09:49 PM
I don't see how you can compare attack speeds and block speeds. Just because it makes sense for different characters to have different attack speeds does not mean it makes sense for them to have different blocks speeds as well. If one character can attack from 3 different angles in say, one second, and the other character can only block from one angle in that time, how can that be anything other than a massive disadvantage? Is that really the smartest way to "balance" a character?

Im not saying the case is that extreme in this game, but ill be damned if it doesn't feel like it at times. I main lawbringer, and my hardest matchup is a peacekeeper spamming light attacks with feints thrown in. The light attacks just come in too fast to switch guards unless I predict where the guy is going, which is not something you can do with consistency.

I just don't see how it can add variety or complexity to the game in the way different attack speeds can. All it does is take away your ability to counterplay your opponent.

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 09:54 PM
Please keep personal attacks off the forums.

Than pls keep users from intoxicating threads after threads without adding anything to the discussion.

I assume a flagged post brought you here, and I do appreciate the work you guys put into managing the community and being quick to act when flag reports pop up but I would pls ask of you to check context and see for yourself that the user I assume flagged posts was the one interacting in an insulting, illogical and toxic way.

Ty. Cheers

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 10:01 PM
I'd like an answer to the question about how this is a problem, as well.

I play kensei and I don't have any issue with blocking aside from the block not registering occasionally when it should.

All you guys are saying amounts to "different heroes have different attack speeds, this is a problem."
"Different heroes have different run speeds, this is a problem."
"Different heroes have different play mechanics, this is a problem."

It's part of the game, and you're telling someone who isn't a developer to "prove" that it's how it's supposed to be. I'd say it is proven, because it's how the game functions.

The post wasn't about the OP opinion on how the mechanic works, it was a flat out accusation that it's a "problem".

In my opinion, the problem is operator error. You're blaming the mechanics for your losses. Just like an athlete will blame the refs for their loss. Or how people will blame other for their own shortcomings.

User error has nothing to do with it.

Most heroes can block most attack chains and linked attack from all heroes, keeping the user as the constant here.

Some heroes virtually can't keep up block against certain combos and linked attacks in specific match ups. This is hardly balanced and I don't believe it was intended tbh


Not a Balance or Bug Issue... it is intended.

So eventhough most heroes except the ones marked as slow in the x-post can actively block all attacks from all heroes, the already slow to attack are meant to also be slow to block and virtually impossible to block with against quick light attack chains from the quickest heroes namely assassins?

You believe this to be intended? If so, you believe it to be fair and balanced? C'mon.

Tattariz
02-19-2017, 10:02 PM
I'd like an answer to the question about how this is a problem, as well.

I play kensei and I don't have any issue with blocking aside from the block not registering occasionally when it should.

All you guys are saying amounts to "different heroes have different attack speeds, this is a problem."
"Different heroes have different run speeds, this is a problem."
"Different heroes have different play mechanics, this is a problem."

It's part of the game, and you're telling someone who isn't a developer to "prove" that it's how it's supposed to be. I'd say it is proven, because it's how the game functions.

The post wasn't about the OP opinion on how the mechanic works, it was a flat out accusation that it's a "problem".

In my opinion, the problem is operator error. You're blaming the mechanics for your losses. Just like an athlete will blame the refs for their loss. Or how people will blame other for their own shortcomings.

we are not talking about attack speed man
we are talking about blocking speed,
For a Raider, Nobushi. Lawbringer and Shoguki to swap from right to left it takes longer than what it does for other heroes.
Why is this an issue?

Other heroes , a warden per say , can block the pk attack spam right left up ...etc
The 4 mentioned above cannot. it is not about reaction speed at this point, it is your hero hindering you from getting barraged right and left because of it's block speed.

CuD_
02-19-2017, 10:02 PM
For those wondering why this is a problem

You can be attacked in different directions faster than you can move your guard. That is NOT how fighting games should work. It can be close, but should never be impossible. Free win for a fast class against any of these slow classes as long as they stick to light attacks and continually change attack direction.

Second, if you pick a guard direction incorrectly, either on purpose or by nature of crappy mouse movement, you are dedicated to that direction for far too long.

Third, if you use mouse and try to change direction during this dead period, it simply doesnt register, so you have to continually slide your mouse in the direction you want to guard until you have thrown your mouse across the room.

A little difference is OK, but this is ridiculous. I know my Nobushi was not this slow in beta, not sure why they changed it so drastically. I'm ok with him being a bit slow since he has a big old polearm(even though I would suspect a weighted polearm is not hard to shift around) What I am NOT ok with is some classes being able to beat me simply based on their class and not on their skill.

The slowest guard change should never be slower than the fastest attack speed. At least not if you want to call this a fighting game of skill.

Hogmin
02-19-2017, 10:04 PM
Than pls keep users from intoxicating threads after threads without adding anything to the discussion.

I assume a flagged post brought you here, and I do appreciate the work you guys put into managing the community and being quick to act when flag reports pop up but I would pls ask of you to check context and see for yourself that the user I assume flagged posts was the one interacting in an insulting, illogical and toxic way.

Ty. Cheers

Except he wasnt, he pointed out flaws in what you're saying and you got mad. He's absolutely right, there's no proof that this is in any way an actual thing, and if it IS a thing it's probably intended to be that way, since they'd all have the same block speed if they wanted it to be the same.

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 10:08 PM
I don't see how you can compare attack speeds and block speeds. Just because it makes sense for different characters to have different attack speeds does not mean it makes sense for them to have different blocks speeds as well. If one character can attack from 3 different angles in say, one second, and the other character can only block from one angle in that time, how can that be anything other than a massive disadvantage? Is that really the smartest way to "balance" a character?

Im not saying the case is that extreme in this game, but ill be damned if it doesn't feel like it at times. I main lawbringer, and my hardest matchup is a peacekeeper spamming light attacks with feints thrown in. The light attacks just come in too fast to switch guards unless I predict where the guy is going, which is not something you can do with consistency.

I just don't see how it can add variety or complexity to the game in the way different attack speeds can. All it does is take away your ability to counterplay your opponent.

You just can't keep up, for example peacekeeper is a very good feinter, if you wait for the marker to go red to match stance only to have her feint it and light attack from another side you will not block it even if you're reaction and input timing are on par. The recovery time from switching stances will not allow this as the lawbringer, when other chars can easily block said attack in that situation.

Another detail to consider is for example the orochi storm rush, as a slow char, if you block it and as long as the orochi player is quick to match the timing asap to follow up with a top light attack you are at his mercy, not even if you predicted the move and are already inputting top stance as he's doing the 180 on you, it will always hit.

Hardly makes sense, seems imbalanced, unfair and very exploitable in skilled hands that know the little detail and moves that are sure to work in specific match ups. And this here is where high lvl play will be going, outlawing many classes in high lvl play for them being too disadvantageous. Truly throws roster balance and mechanics out the window imho

UbiVertigo
02-19-2017, 10:08 PM
Than pls keep users from intoxicating threads after threads without adding anything to the discussion.

I assume a flagged post brought you here, and I do appreciate the work you guys put into managing the community and being quick to act when flag reports pop up but I would pls ask of you to check context and see for yourself that the user I assume flagged posts was the one interacting in an insulting, illogical and toxic way.

Ty. Cheers

In this situation, I was reading the thread and felt I should intervene. A well-reasoned discussion--even an argument--about balance is valuable to us, and hopefully to those involved. When the conversation collapses due to insults and hard feelings, it's not helpful for anyone.

CuD_
02-19-2017, 10:09 PM
Except he wasnt, he pointed out flaws in what you're saying and you got mad. He's absolutely right, there's no proof that this is in any way an actual thing, and if it IS a thing it's probably intended to be that way, since they'd all have the same block speed if they wanted it to be the same.


I suspect this is intentional AND poorly thought out and not tested well. It was NOT like this in the beta. There were noticeable differences, but every hero could defend against every hero responsively, now you simply cannot on about 4 classes. Some of which have no other good mechanisms to make up for the slowness.

Hogmin
02-19-2017, 10:10 PM
I suspect this is intentional AND poorly thought out and not tested well. It was NOT like this in the beta. There were noticeable differences, but every hero could defend against every hero responsively, now you simply cannot on about 4 classes. Some of which have no other good mechanisms to make up for the slowness.

I'm inclined to agree, I didn't seem to have the issues in beta, but it's not very well thought out. I agree with different ATTACK speeds, but not necessarily different block speeds (on that note: poor Raider)

Braegulfer
02-19-2017, 10:12 PM
we are not talking about attack speed man
we are talking about blocking speed,
For a Raider, Nobushi. Lawbringer and Shoguki to swap from right to left it takes longer than what it does for other heroes.
Why is this an issue?

Other heroes , a warden per say , can block the pk attack spam right left up ...etc
The 4 mentioned above cannot. it is not about reaction speed at this point, it is your hero hindering you from getting barraged right and left because of it's block speed.

Whatever, the big three can manage trades, especially raider and shugoki. They have larger health pools as well. IF they blocked as fast as the quicker chars they'd be so op it would be ridiculous.

Braegulfer
02-19-2017, 10:13 PM
In this situation, I was reading the thread and felt I should intervene. A well-reasoned discussion--even an argument--about balance is valuable to us, and hopefully to those involved. When the conversation collapses due to insults and hard feelings, it's not helpful for anyone.

Amen.

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 10:14 PM
Except he wasnt, he pointed out flaws in what you're saying and you got mad. He's absolutely right, there's no proof that this is in any way an actual thing, and if it IS a thing it's probably intended to be that way, since they'd all have the same block speed if they wanted it to be the same.

Excuse me?!

Quote me his legitimate post and complains pls.

Other than saying it proves nothing, implying it comes from no official source and therefor doesn't mean anything, and also implying that I was looking for attention and getting none while derailling the thread, adding nothing but his unfounded doubts about the reported issue being obnoxious and insulting while doing it. And such is his general attitude

A lot of crossed out banned words were used, other derogative expressions, even childish memes as an argument. But I'm guessing you find that reasonable and beneficial to the discussion.

What I did was reply to him in kind while being a lot more polite, blunt and objective I may add.

But sure, poor fella didn't mean to sound like he did, guessing the words just came out wrong. /s

Please...

Felis_Menari
02-19-2017, 10:16 PM
So if I'm understanding the numbers right, lawbringer, raider, shugoki, and nobushi's stance/block switching speed is *one third* of everyone else. Really, I think stance switching should be the same for everyone. It's such a basic part of gameplay, but it can be incredibly detrimental as one of the slower characters. Dealing with light attack spam is not fun when it seems like your stance switching is sabotaging you.

Braegulfer
02-19-2017, 10:16 PM
Yeah, and it take every one of those three hits, and change to do near the same damage as a big guy can do with one of his big hitters. I've played quite a few ridiculously good raiders and shugokis at this point and they sure as hell didn't need to block faster to own me. Only need a single block to turn into a parry and they can unload hell upon their foes.

Hogmin
02-19-2017, 10:18 PM
Excuse me?!

Quote me his legitimate post and complains pls.

Other than saying it proves nothing, implying it comes from no official source and therefor doesn't mean anything, and also implying that I was looking for attention and getting none while derailling the thread, adding nothing but his unfounded doubts about the reported issue being obnoxious and insulting while doing it. And such is his general attitude

A lot of crossed out banned words were used, other derogative expressions, even childish memes as an argument. But I'm guessing you find that reasonable and beneficial to the discussion.

What I did was reply to him in kind while being a lot more polite, blunt and objective I may add.

But sure, poor fella didn't mean to sound like he did, guessing the words just came out wrong. /s

Please...

You know which posts, because you immediately said the same thing over and over instead of actually providing proof or stating how it's relevant since it's likely intentional, not a bug, but I'm not going to argue further simply because I don't really want to get banned. I will say that I feel like the things you've posted MIGHT be true, but until I see confirmation I'll withhold judgement.

Braegulfer
02-19-2017, 10:18 PM
Now you're the one behaving in a snarky and toxic manner, which is exactly what your problem with the other guy was initially (besides a difference of opinion) right?

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 10:19 PM
In this situation, I was reading the thread and felt I should intervene. A well-reasoned discussion--even an argument--about balance is valuable to us, and hopefully to those involved. When the conversation collapses due to insults and hard feelings, it's not helpful for anyone.

Agreed and again appreciate the effort you guys put into managing this, I've witnessed it before.

I want this specific issue to be truly discussed in a healthy way and have it brought to light so something can be done about it.

Still I feel like a lot of posters on this thread were baited (provoked) into replying in kind to said user.

Anyway, as long as he keeps his interaction friendly and respectful I'm guessing everyone else will, I for one will.

CitizenPuddi
02-19-2017, 10:19 PM
Excuse me?!

Quote me his legitimate post and complains pls.

Other than saying it proves nothing, implying it comes from no official source and therefor doesn't mean anything, and also implying that I was looking for attention and getting none while derailling the thread, adding nothing but his unfounded doubts about the reported issue being obnoxious and insulting while doing it. And such is his general attitude

A lot of crossed out banned words were used, other derogative expressions, even childish memes as an argument. But I'm guessing you find that reasonable and beneficial to the discussion.

What I did was reply to him in kind while being a lot more polite, blunt and objective I may add.

But sure, poor fella didn't mean to sound like he did, guessing the words just came out wrong. /s

Please...

Despite his bad attitude, he did raise a good point that went largely ignored.

How do we know that this discrepancy is a problem and not a purposeful mechanic of the game?

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 10:24 PM
You know which posts, because you immediately said the same thing over and over instead of actually providing proof. But I'm not going to argue further simply because I don't really want to get banned. I will say that I feel like the things you've posted MIGHT be true, but until I see confirmation I'll withhold judgement.

No I honestly don't and I read them all.

I won't be providing "confirmation" because I don't represent Ubi, and tbh, until official word is out, and if it ever will be, the proof I linked is pretty much all you're going to have. It might come from different users, it might be done in a slightly different way, but it will pretty much be the same.


Now you're the one behaving in a snarky and toxic manner, which is exactly what your problem with the other guy was initially (besides a difference of opinion) right?

No sorry. Choosing not to be naive and permissive of such interactions, and assuming them are completely different things.

For me I was passed it after I said what I had to say and asked ppl not to feed the troll. Only reason I'm still commenting on it is replying to posts that were directly meant for me.

Vandgarde
02-19-2017, 10:24 PM
You just can't keep up, for example peacekeeper is a very good feinter, if you wait for the marker to go red to match stance only to have her feint it and light attack from another side you will not block it even if you're reaction and input timing are on par. The recovery time from switching stances will not allow this as the lawbringer, when other chars can easily block said attack in that situation.

Another detail to consider is for example the orochi storm rush, as a slow char, if you block it and as long as the orochi player is quick to match the timing asap to follow up with a top light attack you are at his mercy, not even if you predicted the move and are already inputting top stance as he's doing the 180 on you, it will always hit.

Hardly makes sense, seems imbalanced, unfair and very exploitable in skilled hands that know the little detail and moves that are sure to work in specific match ups. And this here is where high lvl play will be going, outlawing many classes in high lvl play for them being too disadvantageous. Truly throws roster balance and mechanics out the window imho

Well I am pretty new to the genre and my reaction speed is not were I would like it to be right now, so it is hard for me to tell. But those two matchups and the examples you gave are without doubt problem spots for my Law game right now. If a warden beats me, I know without a doubt he was just better and I have the tools I need to deal with it. Same thing with a warlord or a fatty. But when I lose to a peacekeeper (some of them) I just feel like I am submerged in a vat a syrup, everything moves sooo sloow, and the PK just dances around and I die from a thousand cuts.


Thing is, the game is still new and people love to ***** about things that beat them before they have put in the time to become good enough to experience the game the way it was intended to be. How many of these complaints are legitimate, and how many come from just not being skilled enuff, I don't know.

CuD_
02-19-2017, 10:25 PM
Despite his bad attitude, he did raise a good point that went largely ignored.

How do we know that this discrepancy is a problem and not a purposeful mechanic of the game?

We don't and that is a valid point. But if so, it is poorly thought out and not tested, because it was not like this in beta. They may have been different, but not so slow that it is impossible to block against fast guard changing strikes. I played Nobushi alot in beta, and I noticed this on Day 1 of release and thought maybe they changed it for everyone, but it was frutrating enough I stopped playing nobushi and decided to try a couple other heroes, I made the mistake of trying Lawbringer and Shoguki and figured the whole game was borked and decided to wait for them to patch it because there is no way it can stay like this.

I came back yesterday cause I really wanted to play, as I LOVE this game, but I just stuck to Story mode, then I got to the Valk part and was like OMG block responsiveness is back, got all excited thinking maybe they patched it, but NOPE the other heroes are still slow as dirt. I wouldnt call it unplayable, but it is beyond frustrating with how the controls work in this game already, it screws up the gameplay really bad for these heroes.

I do suspect it was intentional though, but I think they need to rethink the values, and at a minimum noone should have a guard change slower than they can be attacked... that just removes skill from the game IMO.

As people learn more about this it WILL be exploited by good players who know once a guard direction is dedicated their opponent wont be able to respond to things like feints or simple direction changes on light attacks.

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 10:27 PM
Despite his bad attitude, he did raise a good point that went largely ignored.

How do we know that this discrepancy is a problem and not a purposeful mechanic of the game?

And I did indulge his point there even when replying in kind to his general derogative and insulting interaction.

It is my opinion that being possible to block or in other words actively block and being impossible to block depending on match ups is in fact a balancing issue.

You should always be able to block, even if within a shorter time window, not being at all possible to block in many situations is what I consider it to be broken and imbalanced. And I also wrote examples to situations like this and there are more that I know of, and many others that I'm sure I still don't

PunkPirateAFO
02-19-2017, 10:57 PM
I can somewhat understand the switch speed but if thats how theyre wanting to balance things the tankier characters should be even more tanky or something. *somewhat sarcastic, somewhat not*

The one I dont understand is yes the LB is suppose to be on the tankier side, BUT he doesnt do the damage Shugo or Raider does, AND his kit is suppose to be about blocking and parries which is hard to do with a slow stance change.

Tattariz
02-19-2017, 11:08 PM
Whatever, the big three can manage trades, especially raider and shugoki. They have larger health pools as well. IF they blocked as fast as the quicker chars they'd be so op it would be ridiculous.

Raider is by far the weakest hero in the game atm xD
He has heavies that do a lot of damage . that's it
he doesn't have any proper feint combos, he doesn't have any point where it is guaranteed to land a heavy (unless enemy is out of stam and fell on the floor which is universal for all) has slowest guard speed
and he doesn't have super HIGH healthpool . it is fine
He doesn't have any uninterruptible attack
He doesn't have any bash effect
His zone attack is an un-blockabale that is easily parry-able

Felis_Menari
02-19-2017, 11:14 PM
Yeah, and it take every one of those three hits, and change to do near the same damage as a big guy can do with one of his big hitters. I've played quite a few ridiculously good raiders and shugokis at this point and they sure as hell didn't need to block faster to own me. Only need a single block to turn into a parry and they can unload hell upon their foes.

Light attacks should not be guaranteed to hit past the first block simply because stance switching is too slow (some people say it is, but I don't know for certain myself). If they are guaranteed like that against slow characters though, then we have a major problem with a core part of the gameplay for 1/3 of the characters.

psyminion
02-19-2017, 11:15 PM
I appreciate the 'weight' of the weapons. that means when you move it regardless of purpose. the heroes need this realistic balance or else it's not the game I want to play.

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 11:18 PM
I never said that some characters should not be able to block.
What would be helpful here would be the actual frames every attack has and how many frames you need to raise your guard, then we could establish that this indeed a problem.
all we know is that some classes switch 3 times as fast but have no relation to attack speed.

for me it does not feel like any class can not block something.

Now you're convening your point in a civil and respectful manner and for that I will stop ignoring you.

Sure the footage and footage gathering shared does not represent combat situations, but it directly relates to them. I'm assuming you haven't played much of the slow chars, or any at all. Many that have and have shared their opinions both on reddit and here always start by saying they assume it's user error and slow time to react (mainly because the other possibility, being impossible to block when all other chars can is unreasonable) but this is true, and if you try it out for yourself you will notice it.

Most chars even have time do mistake and initial guard input and correct it while still being able to block. I block all the attacks that I'm complaining about with every other char except with the mentioned slow chars.

Approaching this issue with the mentality that "the world is flat because you never seen it for yourself" or that "global warming is a conspiracy and that the ozone hole doesn't exist because you can't see it" while being very insulting and incorrect and expecting all proof to be provided for you while arguing to dismiss the issue as being possible in case it wasn't isn't at all reasonable, I'm sorry to say.

I'm not God tier but I'm a good enough player with vast experience in fighting games, have good input timing and dexterity for which I'm confident in my input here when I say some chars just can't actively block when the opponent hits his timing correctly or chains specific combos. Not a matter of if, it happens. That simple. And since it happens it seriously puts balancing into question at high lvl MMR and gameplay. It is completely exploitable and it will become more and more exploited.

If you haven't noticed the issue yourself, or even play the chars to have the opportunity of noticing it at least show ppl reporting it the common courtesy of not dismissing the issue until clear and obvious proof against it are presented and try it out for yourself before calling it out and being so vocal as you were.

Might be a cultural thing, but at least where I come from this is what you consider to be civil and reasonable.


I can somewhat understand the switch speed but if thats how theyre wanting to balance things the tankier characters should be even more tanky or something. *somewhat sarcastic, somewhat not*

The one I dont understand is yes the LB is suppose to be on the tankier side, BUT he doesnt do the damage Shugo or Raider does, AND his kit is suppose to be about blocking and parries which is hard to do with a slow stance change.

Nobushi is not at all a tank. Shugoki has his light attack resistance to play with. Raider has some quick attacks and some good reach tracking moves

Still the argument that it should never be impossible to actively block is valid and reasonable. Otherwise obvious rinse and repeat gameplays arise and certain match ups are just broken and said characters stop being used in duel game modes.

Possible but with increased timing requirement? Sure, as long as it matches the risk/reward sacred rule of fighting games.

Impossible? Broken. Pure and simple.

CuD_
02-19-2017, 11:26 PM
I never said that some characters should not be able to block.
What would be helpful here would be the actual frames every attack has and how many frames you need to raise your guard, then we could establish that this indeed a problem.
all we know is that some classes switch 3 times as fast but have no relation to attack speed.

for me it does not feel like any class can not block something.

It doesnt effect attack speed, what is DOES effect is whether you can change the direction of that attack. Ever notice that you rarely get hit from multiple sides by Nobushi unless they are dodging or using attacks that always go in a specific direction? Its because you get locked into a direction for what feels like a half to a full second before you can switch again. There are moves you can use to help bypass this silly limitation, but the limitation is far too severe when put in comparison with the responsiveness of all other heroes.

Felis_Menari
02-19-2017, 11:27 PM
@neo geo: The shugoki's special armor ability negates *every* hostile action, not just light attacks (as far as I can tell). Lights, heavies, guard breaks; it eats it all.

DrExtrem
02-19-2017, 11:33 PM
I can count frames when I get back home tomorrow.

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 11:35 PM
@neo geo: The shugoki's special armor ability negates *every* hostile action, not just light attacks (as far as I can tell). Lights, heavies, guard breaks; it eats it all.

Want to explore it tbh. What I've learned is more from playing against him than using him tbh.

I felt all my heavies interrupted while I had to double light chain hit do interrupt him any other way.

Might be a specific amount of damage tolerance until interrupt. Anyway, my point is it's a different mechanic specific to that char that might help him overcome this issue but the fact the issue is broken still remains.


____


As for some of the other input and many experienced fighting game posters sharing their point, one notices because, even though you have different recovery times and longer attack animations that leave you open for different period of times, heavy hitter and fast nimble hitters all share the same base guard ability and timing to perform (unless it's a skill counter).

Pretty much like the guard break and tech break in this game. No matter your class, base damage and speed you always have the same time to counter after hit.

Not saying that block speed should be exactly the same for everyone. That would get me into other balancing issues I also consider to be problematic.

But again and feeling that I'm repeating myself, but it is in fact the main issue and the one that makes this broken, you shouldn't be virtually impossible to actively block in any match up, no matter the char you're using and up against. This breaks balance and makes certain moves and playstyles exploitable considering certain match ups.

Felis_Menari
02-19-2017, 11:35 PM
I can count frames when I get back home tomorrow.

You're doing this gaming community a service, and I thank you for it.

DrExtrem
02-19-2017, 11:45 PM
So. What do we need?

- time to adjust guard
- gb counter window
- parry window
- frames per fast attack (only the red marker?)
- frames per stagger

CuD_
02-19-2017, 11:46 PM
in relation of the attack speed of your enemy. when his attack needs 20 frames and your block needs 30 frames, then we have a problem. when the slowest block needs 30 frames (the fastest 10) and the fastest attack needs 50 frames, we donīt have a problem.

we lack this releation between attack speed and block speed.

I get ya, and all I have at this point is anecdotal, cant prove it. But when I come up against real fast classes, I can block one side and be attacked from the other before I can move it. It might be close close timing being lost in lag though, so there could be something too this.

But this keys into what I am talking about, I don't mind if they are different and actually they likely should be a bit... But the discrepancy currently feels like it is way too much. And it was not there in the beta(at least not this pronounced)

If I can manage to cap some video of it I will post it here, but I hear ya.

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 11:48 PM
Still a nobushi won the battlefy 1on1 tournament, so it seems not to be such of a big issue.

To continue your analogy, this isnīt about if the world is flat or not but if we would fall off of the sides or not. I fully believed you from the first post that there are different block speeds and i never said something contradicting.



in relation of the attack speed of your enemy. when his attack needs 20 frames and your block needs 30 frames, then we have a problem. when the slowest block needs 30 frames (the fastest 10) and the fastest attack needs 50 frames, we donīt have a problem.

we lack this releation between attack speed and block speed.

Different discussion. That is pretty much assessing damage output, ability to follow up and the stamina cost the defines how far you can go and punishing you can be.

The heaviest hitters are also the slower to attack, easiest to block/parry/dodge and least capable of following up while having the most demanding stamina consumption. Makes sense. Plays into risk/reward.

Assassins that are the fastest to hit, most capable of following up and that do have seemingly fair HP to heighten their risk considering their reward still seem to have unfair stamina costs and little timing to combo, dodge and follow attacks (which is a widely accepted mechanic for this type of char in fighting games). I think it should be looked into although it won't get the community's support for being the most popular char. This needs tweaking to better meet the risk/reward ratio, and ability to spam stance inputs to be unpredictable (specially via analog spin in console while being able to feint and follow up attack) should have a recovery penalty interrupting chains (either favor skilled precise input, or punish spammers, this really needs to happen and would be a fair deterrent to this play style)

Anyway, don't want to derail this any further. It is in fact a discussion I'm willing to have but not on this thread.

As for the guard speeds, obviously you would agree. It's obviously in the game and undebatable in the footage. You didn't however believe the subtle implications this has, nor were you civil in presenting your doubts I'm sorry to say. By general demeanor, words and expressions used, huge font and caps screeming at users from their screen. C'mon! Even you have to admit it isn't at all civil or reasonable behavior.

Anyway, forget it, I don't want to get back in it again. I'm looking for this specific mechanic and it's implications to be discussed and brought to light so I'm not forced to play a strict meta in duel while feeling the game is balanced and seeing move set and class variety.

It's pretty bad as is when I'm always matched against the same players that used the same chars and the same strategies in duel in my MMR. This just makes things take a huge leap for the worst

CuD_
02-19-2017, 11:50 PM
So. What do we need?

- time to adjust guard
- gb counter window
- parry window
- frames per fast attack (only the red marker?)
- frames per stagger

All of these would be great, but man, that is alot of work. If you go through the trouble to gather that all you are a freaking legend!

GB counter window I aint too worried about, it is getting put back to prebeta state whenever the patch hits, and that was a good state.

I am mainly interested in proof that some classes can change their attack direction faster than these slow blockers can change guard. All I have is personal unrecorded experience, and if I am wrong about it I would like to know.

I would LOVE to know frames per stagger, and I would like even more if the UI would indicate if I was in an unresponsive/unblockable state. Pretty sure they increased stagger state on a few heroes in release as well, but that is just how it feels, I cant prove it.

I_am_a_robot
02-19-2017, 11:50 PM
finally some proof, gj

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 11:52 PM
So. What do we need?

- time to adjust guard
- gb counter window
- parry window
- frames per fast attack (only the red marker?)
- frames per stagger

that all seems to be pertinent, but on top of stagger (assuming block recovery) you should also record hit recovery

Of course that footage/number of frames would have to be correlated to the attacks and chains I've reported as being broken for the slow chars. This while fast strikers, namely assassins, are being handled by skilled players that will hit their timing asap

neogeo___
02-19-2017, 11:54 PM
finally some proof, gj

Reddit user u/Kyoj1n had the trouble of gathering said proof and get this discussion going.

You have him to thank, not me

DrExtrem
02-19-2017, 11:55 PM
I already have some footage recorded. Because it is at 30 frames, counting is easy using the xboxes cutting app.

CuD_
02-20-2017, 12:28 AM
and back to the insults we go! well done Taco.Paco.
Now, as you are not as braindead as me (barely), how did a nobushi manage to come to the finals yesterday and even win? Wouldnīt it be easy for everyone to then just counter pick her and take an easy tournament win? why did no one do this? cause of honor?

Couldn't tell ya, dont know who she was matched up against. But that is beside the point, none of the classes are unplayable, and honestly it took this long for people to finally dial in on exactly what was going on with the guard responsiveness.

Nobushi can still win, and can still outplay people, but against any fast classes they have to either be very good, or coming up against people who dont know how to exploit the behavior. Nobushi has a very nice kit and can be deadly when used right. That doesnt mean this stuff is not broken(or rather over/under tuned, broken is a bit severe)

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 12:36 AM
and back to the insults we go! well done Taco.Paco.
Now, as you are not as braindead as me (barely), how did a nobushi manage to come to the finals yesterday and even win? Wouldnīt it be easy for everyone to then just counter pick her and take an easy tournament win? why did no one do this? cause of honor?

Where the hell did you even go to dig up the quote? I can't find it. Doesn't matter.

Seriously, as my father would say, if you started it, don't blame others. Dude just deal with the fact that you had an initial unreasonable way of interacting and apologize for it instead of keeping the fire going. Really looks like you're happier stirring up conflict.

As for Nobushi winning this or that? How does that translate into the discussion at hand. So that's proof the issue with the mechanic doesn't exist? Is that what you're saying? Seriously unreasonable argument.

Seriously. Stop picking fights, deal with any resentment ppl may still have from your initial interaction without playing the victim card, it suits you ill, and either discuss the topic reasonably or refrain from posting.

Please

Fibrillous
02-20-2017, 01:23 AM
I didn't know about this until now. Assuming the guard indicator is working as intended, black meaning you won't block and white meaning you will, that is completely silly. There should be no reason one class can switch block faster than another.

switching guards should be instantaneous on every character.

Kelson27
02-20-2017, 01:42 AM
I was wondering about this one last night actually. I play an alright raider but once you start to fight some higher level players I'm finding my blocks just aren't getting there. Many times I was getting picked apart where it felt I was on point but I'd just take the hit anyway.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 01:47 AM
I was wondering about this one last night actually. I play an alright raider but once you start to fight some higher level players I'm finding my blocks just aren't getting there. Many times I was getting picked apart where it felt I was on point but I'd just take the hit anyway.

Yep, pretty much what me and the x-poster from reddit are trying to get pushed into daylight.

Nobushi is the only slow char I'm willing to play atm because she can block timed dodge out of chains. Still the mechanic is broken even considering her specific counter to the situation and there are some situations where she can't even react.

Hope someone from Ubi Dev Team reads this and gives us some feedback ASAP.

Anyway, thanks to everyone pushing for some official answers, this thread's notoriety has gotten huge, can only imagine it will draw some attention to the issue and hopefully real numbers and fixes.


Cheers

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 09:34 AM
it probably got deleted or he deleted it. I am not making stuff up.


It would appear you are, in fact.



I am not the one stirring up conflict here, you failed to provide any substance to your claim 5 pages in, where other people actually took that part over for you. i am also not the one here insulting other people.


The evidence was provided in the OP via link. Hardly see how I didn't enumerate in-game examples for others to test out and see for themselves. Not a matter of being the MVP, I did however contribute to the discussion. Funny argument, really mature thought. Congratz.



This translates into that she is definitely a viable character and that there is not a direct correlation between low guard block time and making a character weak. Thatīs not proof, that is an indication. You still seem to think that i am the one needing to bring proof to this subject. Again, this is not true.



She is viable. Doesn't mean is isn't affected by an unintended broken mechanic. There in fact is no direct correlation between winning a tournament and being affected by this announced issue or not. No proof whatsoever. I know you are trying to make this opposite point but this one is much more reasonable and makes a lot more sense, sorry


You make the accusation, you have to bring the proof. All we have right now is the fact that something is different.


This is no court of law. It's not even an accusation. I shared and announced a mechanic as bugged and if anything asked others to see for themselves and support. I don't need to run backwards to prove to you this is in fact an issue. And if you would stop with the BS attitude, expect everything to be done for you while getting of your high horse picking up the referred chars and actually trying this for yourself instead of immediately dismissing it for supposed lack of proof, as if that means the problem can't and doesn't exist, you'd come across as a much more reasonable a normal chap, and not this complete ridiculous opposite.


Your claim
This is a serious balancing issue (with compelling proof)

My counter response:
1. We donīt know, maybe it is, maybe it is not. It looks like it is intentional.
2. Your proof "proofs" that there is a deviation in behaviour, not that this deviation in behaviour results in a balancing issue.

I am backing up my point of view by saying that a character with low block speed won a tournament, your argumentation is based upon people saying "yeah, i canīt block PK as LB". This might be true but this is also not a good basis for any evidence. Maybe the people have bad reflexes or input lag or whatever.

Further i want to add that i would probably, too, would not have introduced different block speeds for it making the mechanics a character plays different, but i am not on the ubisoft balancing team and i (we) donīt know their reasoning behind it. This still says nothing about if we have an issue at hand or not. In doubt, the game is the game and thatīs it. There is no "This is how it should be - Solution".


Damn, that reasoning, if you try to argue it as if you would with a normal thought process it just twists your head into a knot. Won't even bother anymore. Try for yourself and see or just su.
(last bit is even more glorious, if there are match ups that have situations where blocking is in fact impossible, it's a intended balance characteristic, seriously, you are serious and not trolling right? omg)


I really donīt care if you like me or not. Besides that i donīt think that i am the one here being the bad guy you, you could point out what hurt you so much from my initial post. That i called you a special snowflake? When this is the sole reason for your resentment and you seem to forget all around this one particular sentence, then it is no wonder why my questions get ignored until 5 pages in. Besides, bumping is against forum rules (which is another thing what annoyed me about your way of presenting your topic). So, albeit my initial post being harsh, didnīt it attack you in any way (except the snowflake part maybe, but i did not know that you are so sensible, so my apologies).


Buddy, it sure looks like you're way overreacting for being called out for BM and geral attitude and for the suggestion that an apology while dealing with the unavoidable resentment from your interactions might do you some good. Yes, this is how things work in the normal world. No one's perfect and no one else expects anyone to be. You make a mistake, deal with it apologize and move on buddy, that is if you don't want to come across as an entitled kid.

Regarding the accusation of bumps, forum police, a Community manager was in here, and do pls check the post times and see they were multiple replies to different poster that addressed me, and although you can copy pasta and put all in a single post there is no built in option for that, and being on mobile at the time I wasn't about to go through the trouble.

Your general attitude also bothers me and it got to a point I started ignoring you. Seems like you were willing to take a mature approach so I treated you maturely in return. Obviously my mistake.

It was everything btw, demeanor, this potato logic you use and the way you present you arguments. The bold huge font text. The multiple curse words as if anyone did you any wrong and your general entitled behavior. This is in fact toxic attitude you yet again bring to the post.


You are welcome.


Omg! seriously? Lol, must be a troll!



I sometimes have this feeling with valkyrie (blockspeed 12(lol.. this unit))


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qoauYV683I

but on close examination, you can see that i am at fault for every failed attempt, where i initially thought that the game cheated me.
Yes, this is fast blockspeed char and with a low blockspeed char, the game could have indeed be at fault. But i donīt know that yet, and as i said many times, there is no compelling proof that this speed is indeed to low to block attacks. There is just "yeah i have the feeling that it is true".


If you wrote this you didn't read the previous posts! Not a feeling and even if it was is not one that only I have. Again, ridiculous arguments and reasoning and amount to 0 as for grounds to dismiss the issue and still deserves being looked into and considered possible but the "gaming court of law ceptics".

Also, BOTH valkyrie and berserker are fast speed block change chars. Might want to re-read the link post I shared. Your point is!?


Back to your claim, i also never dismissed it as non issue, i clearly stated that there are bigger things right now and that these things overshadow this topic.

Blockspeed + Input lag + datadelay + reaction time < attack [Startup time]

please verify this

Nah, you just acted like if there's no proof it's not there will demanding proof like a kid multiple times in a way that suggested you didn't even consider proof to be possible to attain and therefore the issue inexistent.

Don't insult other peoples intelligence pls. Unfortunately I've come across your type of person and got engaged in debates with this potato logic enough times in my life time to know it when I see it.

Back to ignoring you I guess.

Stop intoxicating the thread pls and acting like you aren't.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 09:58 AM
Wow. Okay this is the point i will to ignore you as you lack basic comprehension skills of words.

Wow, Xmas came early.

Pls do!

Aarpian
02-20-2017, 10:13 AM
Good thread, good information to have.
Not sure why people are having difficulty grasping why this might be important information or why it might affect balance - one of the major complaints about lawbringer is how ****ty it is trying to block with him (literally impossible to block the PK follow-up light), and now we have solid numbers to back that up.

Krucifixt
02-20-2017, 11:08 AM
Some of the difference is also how classes work in their blocks. For instance some can block fast, but cant block as long, or dont block as much damage. Whether it truly does need tweaking though hard to say.. Havent played them all long enough to see the impact it makes. This also may have been discussed I'm too lazy to read through pages.

Direwald
02-20-2017, 12:10 PM
This is no court of law. It's not even an accusation. I shared and announced a mechanic as bugged and if anything asked others to see for themselves and support. I don't need to run backwards to prove to you this is in fact an issue. And if you would stop with the BS attitude, expect everything to be done for you while getting of your high horse picking up the referred chars and actually trying this for yourself instead of immediately dismissing it for supposed lack of proof, as if that means the problem can't and doesn't exist, you'd come across as a much more reasonable a normal chap, and not this complete ridiculous opposite.

You don't need to be in a court of law to abide basic principles of discussion. The burden of proof falls on the accuser, at least when adults have an argument. That said, if you're a kid, I can understand your inability to comprehend this simple notion.

Eleven pages in, and there is still zero evidence that different block speeds are in any way a balancing issue. Until there is a prove that the fastest attack in game is faster than the slowest block stance change, there is really nothing to discuss here. And no, people saying "I feel like I can't block PK fast enough" is no evidence. If that's your argument, then I can tell you that as PK, my heavy into light feint has already been blocked by pretty much every class.

Btw, just so you know how this thread looks to every one:

OP: (copies post from reddit while adding nothing of value by himself) Here are some arbitrary numbers about block speeds. I don't like them, thus it's a problem and serious balancing issue.
People: How is this a problem? Classes have different attack speed, run speed etc and it's not an issue, why is this?
OP: Because I feel like I can't block fast characters with slow one.
People: Cool, can you provide any proof of that?
OP: Nah man, how about you stop being so lazy and do it yourself? (ignoring the fact that he himself did nothing except ctrl-c ctrl-v)
People: Why should we go a get a proof for your accusation? That doesn't make any sense.
OP: lalala, you're a troll, get out of here

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 12:29 PM
You don't need to be in a court of law to abide basic principles of discussion. The burden of proof falls on the accuser, at least when adults have an argument. That said, if you're a kid, I can understand your inability to comprehend this simple notion.

Eleven pages in, and there is still zero evidence that different block speeds are in any way a balancing issue. Until there is a prove that the fastest attack in game is faster than the slowest block stance change, there is really nothing to discuss here. And no, people saying "I feel like I can't block PK fast enough" is no evidence. If that's your argument, then I can tell you that as PK, my heavy into light feint has already been blocked by pretty much every class.

Btw, just so you know how this thread looks to every one:

OP: (copies post from reddit while adding nothing of value by himself) Here are some arbitrary numbers about block speeds. I don't like them, thus it's a problem and serious balancing issue.
People: How is this a problem? Classes have different attack speed, run speed etc and it's not an issue, why is this?
OP: Because I feel like I can't block fast characters with slow one.
People: Cool, can you provide any proof of that?
OP: Nah man, how about you stop being so lazy and do it yourself? (ignoring the fact that he himself did nothing except ctrl-c ctrl-v)
People: Why should we go a get a proof for your accusation? That doesn't make any sense.
OP: lalala, you're a troll, get out of here

Nah buddy, accusation and burden of proof are in fact expressions used in a court of law.

I didn't formally acuse anyone nor do I have the need to present evidence for the issue to merit discussion and be looked in to.

A reasonable poster that could even consider it to be possible would probably give a try themselves and see what his own opinion on legitimacy is, instead of sitting on the issue and expecting everything to be presented to him.

A did see a pertinent reddit post that had a good footage gathering and supported my already made conviction and felt it was worthy of being shared and discussed by the community or at least the members that aim for a fair and decent balance and mechanics for the game.

Calling out toxic behavior and interaction is not the problem. Dismissing an issue because you are unconvinced with the current proof or don't share the same opinion is in fact the problem

It could have 50 pages and users like yourself would still say, show me undoubtable and certain proof that the issue exists or I won't buy it. Even if combat footage would be presented frame by frame sceptic users would still argue that input delay was to blame and still not be willing to try it out for themselves, so what's really the point? For you guys it's either an official announcement or it doesn't exist.
To this I ask, do you even play the referred slower classes? Because it's not even a noticeable issue if you don't.
Did the sceptics help discuss the issue instead of dismissing it unfounded grounds? Did they even suggested what would be better and more compelling evidence or way to determine if this is in fact a broken mechanic?

Geez, world is really upside down nowadays.

Finally I gave multiple examples on top of sharing the info I found and never claimed to be mind. No karma here, so it isn't even a call out for attention or karma whoring. It's simply looking to bring what I consider to be an issue worthy of being looked into and needing a fix.

Since neither me nor any doubter are experts or hold stronger weight in the decision making process, but since I did try it out and experienced it multiple times I'd say afford me at least the common courtesy of recognizing I may be right or go see for yourself.

As for the rest, not worthy commenting on. Video proof that was completely unreasonable and unrelated to the x-post. unreasonable demand for proof expecting this to be treated like a trial. And pertaining to that specific lingo I'd say that reasonable doubt was established. And blablabla the rest! ;)

Couldn't care for how you view the thread or assume others do as well, as long as the issue is looked into and any input or suggestion is reasonable and mature.

Cheers

Aarpian
02-20-2017, 12:56 PM
You don't need to be in a court of law to abide basic principles of discussion. The burden of proof falls on the accuser, at least when adults have an argument. That said, if you're a kid, I can understand your inability to comprehend this simple notion.

Eleven pages in, and there is still zero evidence that different block speeds are in any way a balancing issue. Until there is a prove that the fastest attack in game is faster than the slowest block stance change, there is really nothing to discuss here. And no, people saying "I feel like I can't block PK fast enough" is no evidence. If that's your argument, then I can tell you that as PK, my heavy into light feint has already been blocked by pretty much every class.

Btw, just so you know how this thread looks to every one:

OP: (copies post from reddit while adding nothing of value by himself) Here are some arbitrary numbers about block speeds. I don't like them, thus it's a problem and serious balancing issue.
People: How is this a problem? Classes have different attack speed, run speed etc and it's not an issue, why is this?
OP: Because I feel like I can't block fast characters with slow one.
People: Cool, can you provide any proof of that?
OP: Nah man, how about you stop being so lazy and do it yourself? (ignoring the fact that he himself did nothing except ctrl-c ctrl-v)
People: Why should we go a get a proof for your accusation? That doesn't make any sense.
OP: lalala, you're a troll, get out of here

Alright, some examples for you:
Warden zone attack
Peacekeeper Zone attack
Peacekeeper's follow-up from light
Possibly Orochi zone attack
Orochi top-lights

All of these will be significantly more difficult if not outright impossible for characters with the slowest block speed to react to, since they have to react more quickly.
I'm not sure why you think this isn't contributing to things like the weakness of the lawbringer, or why you've taken such exception to the implications.

SteewC70
02-20-2017, 01:00 PM
For those wondering why this is a problem

A little difference is OK, but this is ridiculous. I know my Nobushi was not this slow in beta, not sure why they changed it so drastically. I'm ok with him being a bit slow since he has a big old polearm(even though I would suspect a weighted polearm is not hard to shift around) What I am NOT ok with is some classes being able to beat me simply based on their class and not on their skill.


I agree with the Nobushi statement. In the OB I mained Nobushi and how she is now is not what I played then. I still can't put my finger on it, but something is changed and it bothers me that I don't know exactly what.

Hackfraysn
02-20-2017, 01:17 PM
Alright, some examples for you:
Warden zone attack
Peacekeeper Zone attack
Peacekeeper's follow-up from light
Possibly Orochi zone attack
Orochi top-lights

All of these will be significantly more difficult if not outright impossible for characters with the slowest block speed to react to, since they have to react more quickly.
I'm not sure why you think this isn't contributing to things like the weakness of the lawbringer, or why you've taken such exception to the implications.

Add Valkyrie dodge-light attack to that list. Try to consistently block that in time after another block from another angle as a Raider.

darksavior1977
02-20-2017, 02:23 PM
no one brought any proof that this IS an issue at all. Proof. Now.

I dunno, tangentially, everyone complaining about how fast the attacks of certain other character's are (Orochi) versus their ability to block them has been a huge issue on these boards, so that is proof imo. If they are playing characters that have a slower block speed, they may very well not be able to shift their block in time to counter really fast attackers. So this then begs the question; Does Orochi (or fast attackers in general) need speed toned down, or do other classes need their block speed increased? Or should block speed be normalized across all characters?

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 03:03 PM
I dunno, tangentially, everyone complaining about how fast the attacks of certain other character's are (Orochi) versus their ability to block them has been a huge issue on these boards, so that is proof imo. If they are playing characters that have a slower block speed, they may very well not be able to shift their block in time to counter really fast attackers. So this then begs the question; Does Orochi (or fast attackers in general) need speed toned down, or do other classes need their block speed increased? Or should block speed be normalized across all characters?

That is in fact the topic some are trying to discuss. Few are obviously trying to disprove or reason that they may be fair and balance mechanics intended to be in the game while implying ppl lack understanding or the base mechanics and most probably have slow input timing and dexterity and/or latency to account for this even happening.

__Obviously__ difference in block speeds was meant to be part of different char balance and game style. (If they are all that reasonable and fair, fast and slow ones alike, is another discussion)

If this in fact is true it, like many feel it is and have experienced but "lack the proof to say beyond any doubt", it __obviously__ wasn't intended and compromises balance making it broken and highly exploitable in certain match ups. User can repeat a set of block and attacks while leaving the opponent at his mercy, unable to block no matter his dexterity and input reaction times.

You will unfairly be given no room for mistake having to interrupt and/or parry chain start ups, no other option. The impossibility to defend if exploiting specific set of combos or linked moves is the issue here. __Impossibility__ !

Guaranteed hits are one thing. What many are discussing here and asking for some official notice and input is another, it's match up inability to actively defend and counter, considering a mechanic to be exploitable and pretty much broken.

frank1ller
02-20-2017, 03:27 PM
The question is why is thwe block speed not even mentionned in the game?

defiix
02-20-2017, 03:33 PM
Since Ubi execs are probably busy buying a new golden bathtub for their 3rd home with your money I can only image what they have to say about that is "MUHAHAHAHA"

Zolan91
02-20-2017, 05:02 PM
It would appear you are, in fact.




The evidence was provided in the OP via link. Hardly see how I didn't enumerate in-game examples for others to test out and see for themselves. Not a matter of being the MVP, I did however contribute to the discussion. Funny argument, really mature thought. Congratz.
[...] .

Neogeo tbh you just used almost a whole page to criticize the behaviour instead of trying to understand his point. Who is the childish one? If you are mature you can see pass his behaviour and meet him. If you get locked into behaviour/expressions that hurt you, then discussing becomes superhard because you dont know if you are responding to your logical thoughts or your feelings. And that is why you keep getting yourself into wierd places. His point is simply that even if it feels like the bloockspeed is slower it doesnt mean that it necssarily is true. Yes the link about blockspeed is showing that some chars blocks slower then others. Still doesnt mean that it is impossible to block.
What you are saying is this
"IF some chars cant block all attacks, then the games is imbalanced"

Ryaneko is anwsering to this
"we dont know if some chars cant block all attacks, therefore we dont know if this is unbalanced yet".

The rest is just random bashing/ciriticizing of irrelevant stuff.
Even if many people feel like a Raider cant block all attacks, it doesnt mean that it is impossible. Because it is hard to know without all the facts. And the link if block speeds is one fact, but not enough. Doesnt matter if we're in court of law or not. If we want to KNOW what is happening we need to gather all the information that is needed. block speed link + feeling is not enough, but it is a good start to start questioning of what is. Maybe it is impossible in peoples mind, but that is a different thing.

kyoj1n
02-20-2017, 05:30 PM
To try and get people to refocus a little bit here, let me ask you this.

The only thing we know for certain is that block speeds are different for different heroes. In my opinion is appears to be intentional by the devs.

Now the question is if this was intended by the devs what is there reasoning for it?

Is it for realism? The heroes with the slow guard change all have large two handers (except for the kensei). If it is for realism then we have to hope that they made sure it was also balanced in some way.

Is it a balancing mechanic? If it is a balancing mechanic then we need to look for the negative that it gives those. The obvious one is not being able to or having a more difficult time block other heroes attacks. What other ones might there be? Stance change also effects standard attack change direction. It could be a balance for heroes with heavier harder hitting weapons, so they can't change side as fast as other.

That's just some speculating on what the purpose of this might be. Thoughts?

DrExtrem
02-20-2017, 05:59 PM
So. As promised, I counted a few frames. On xbox (30fps)

First: The time windows are doable in theory.

I focused on bots, who are doing light spam for a living.

The attack speeds of berserkers lights, were between 15 & 19 frames. The conquerors was @ 19 frames.
The wardens and lawbringers hit recovery time, was between 19 & 21 frames.

The general problem is, that you always hang behind when you try to react to the attack direction of your opponent. You basically have to guess, where the attack after the current attack might come from. After being hit, you need at least 19 frames to recover your guard - 21, if you changed your guards direction.

It is difficult to block light spam. It is impossible, to parry after being hit, because the parry window (1-2 frames) pops up, while you are still within your own recovery window.

Bottom line - if the spam is successful, its up to you guessing right or your opponent running our of stamina. Berserkers are especially ugly, because blocking one hit does not stop their sosm, if they are already glowing.

At least when you are playing against bots, who always have perfect timing.

Playing against bots in duels without equipment stats was far more easy, than playing against them in dominion with gear stats. Some of the bots hit extremely hard with their gear.

Aarpian
02-20-2017, 06:09 PM
To try and get people to refocus a little bit here, let me ask you this.

The only thing we know for certain is that block speeds are different for different heroes. In my opinion is appears to be intentional by the devs.

Now the question is if this was intended by the devs what is there reasoning for it?

Is it for realism? The heroes with the slow guard change all have large two handers (except for the kensei). If it is for realism then we have to hope that they made sure it was also balanced in some way.

Is it a balancing mechanic? If it is a balancing mechanic then we need to look for the negative that it gives those. The obvious one is not being able to or having a more difficult time block other heroes attacks. What other ones might there be? Stance change also effects standard attack change direction. It could be a balance for heroes with heavier harder hitting weapons, so they can't change side as fast as other.

That's just some speculating on what the purpose of this might be. Thoughts?

Don't put too much stock into it - the devs are, by their own admission, terrible at the game. They didn't foresee the balancing issues related to parry, so I doubt they had enough foresight to understand how the blocking would affect the game and just thought "well they're heavies so they should be slower"

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 06:10 PM
So. As promised, I counted a few frames. On xbox (30fps)

First: The time windows are doable in theory.

I focused on bots, who are doing light spam for a living.

The attack speeds of berserkers lights, were between 15 & 19 frames. The conquerors was @ 19 frames.
The wardens and lawbringers hit recovery time, was between 19 & 21 frames.

The general problem is, that you always hang behind when you try to react to the attack direction of your opponent. You basically have to guess, where the attack after the current attack might come from. After being hit, you need at least 19 frames to recover your guard - 21, if you changed your guards direction.

It is difficult to block light spam. It is impossible, to parry after being hit, because the parry window (1-2 frames) pops up, while you are still within your own recovery window.

Bottom line - if the spam is successful, its up to you guessing right or your opponent running our of stamina. Berserkers are especially ugly, because blocking one hit does not stop their sosm, if they are already glowing.

At least when you are playing against bots, who always have perfect timing.

Playing against bots in duels without equipment stats was far more easy, than playing against them in dominion with gear stats. Some of the bots hit extremely hard with their gear.

So in other words, what you are saying is that from the information you gathered you cannot actively block against a berserker light chain having to predict to come out of your recovery already in the stance you are about to be hit in 2 frames after recovery? Did I get that right?

Also, you used lawbringer and warden?

Did you gather and measured frames for any situation that would consider coming out of recovery and still have time or frames to switch guards and block an attack from another direction during a light attack chain using either lawbringer, raider or nobushi?

DrExtrem
02-20-2017, 06:37 PM
You can only actively block a second strike, if one of your first block was successful.

Im both cases - warden and lawbringer, the guard adjusted fast enough, to pull off successive blocks. But usually, the AI stopped attacking after being blocked.

But. Since the combat is so fast, only players with lightning reflexes can do it. Mine are average and degrading, because I am almost 35. A child or young adult will have a significantly easier time to block fast spam. I was usually a bit behind - some will be less behind some a bit more. Fact is, that you can never ever parry a successive light back, if you are facing a bot and you are still recovering from a blow.

In the lab and in a one on one situation, it is easier to begin with.

I checked a few videos and started a custom match vs. A level-2 zerker.

I could collect more footage, but since my neurophysiology does not change, it is pointless.


Bottom line - if you are over 30 years old ans have average reaction times, you will have a significantly harder time playing the game - especially against light spam.

"Schade eigentlich" (actually a sad thing) as we say in germany. The game is fun but only something for young fighting pros, with at least 60fps.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 07:08 PM
You can only actively block a second strike, if one of your first block was successful.

Im both cases - warden and lawbringer, the guard adjusted fast enough, to pull off successive blocks. But usually, the AI stopped attacking after being blocked.

But. Since the combat is so fast, only players with lightning reflexes can do it. Mine are average and degrading, because I am almost 35. A child or young adult will have a significantly easier time to block fast spam. I was usually a bit behind - some will be less behind some a bit more. Fact is, that you can never ever parry a successive light back, if you are facing a bot and you are still recovering from a blow.

In the lab and in a one on one situation, it is easier to begin with.

I checked a few videos and started a custom match vs. A level-2 zerker.

I could collect more footage, but since my neurophysiology does not change, it is pointless.


Bottom line - if you are over 30 years old ans have average reaction times, you will have a significantly harder time playing the game - especially against light spam.

"Schade eigentlich" (actually a sad thing) as we say in germany. The game is fun but only something for young fighting pros, with at least 60fps.

Nah buddy, ty for the input and effort.

I'd say if we need to collect actual combat footage we need a spar situation between the slower and faster classes with players with very high reaction and input dexterity handling them. Specially the Berserker that can keep the chain going even after block.

But the little info you managed to provide already points in the direction we are arguing is the reality atm, so I thank you for taking the time and keeping true to your word.

Cheers buddy

DrExtrem
02-20-2017, 07:44 PM
Always happy to help.

The days I collected is off course not a hard evidence. But it points into a certain direction.

With timeframes this narrow, the game is more elite, than it can afford.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 08:14 PM
Always happy to help.

The days I collected is off course not a hard evidence. But it points into a certain direction.

With timeframes this narrow, the game is more elite, than it can afford.

I always considered you could predict and come out of hit recovery in the stance you're next attack was coming from. Did this many times. But it's hardly the same as being able to block. You predicting a pattern and praying for luck. Sure you can connect the block, not because of skill or input dexterity, more because of luck. Actively being able to block is an entire different thing. One I can do with any other char except the slow ones. For me it says enough and I do relate this to the already slower stance change speed that was proven by kyoj1n.

Anyway. Thanks again

Vordred
02-20-2017, 08:21 PM
i noticed this instantly on getting the game, first thing i tried as the Lawbringer and was shocked at how slow his guard changed

Panzer_Cmndr
02-20-2017, 08:26 PM
The game has serious balance issues at this stage. A glance at the forums gives an obvious example as to that fact. Im certain that enough data has been collected to make a viable spreadsheet by now to see just how out of balance the game really is and why everyone is migrating towards the same few characters and avoiding the rest.

DrExtrem
02-20-2017, 08:52 PM
I always considered you could predict and come out of hit recovery in the stance you're next attack was coming from. Did this many times. But it's hardly the same as being able to block. You predicting a pattern and praying for luck. Sure you can connect the block, not because of skill or input dexterity, more because of luck. Actively being able to block is an entire different thing. One I can do with any other char except the slow ones. For me it says enough and I do relate this to the already slower stance change speed that was proven by kyoj1n.

Anyway. Thanks again

That's why I call it "the guessing game". To block several light attacks in successions, you have to be a bot or a cylon clone, linked to the Xbox. Or maybe you have to visit that certain crossroad.

I have to admit - only one block is enough, to break a light spam (except the zerkers one) to get sone breathing space but the odds are against you on multiple levels. You are getting punished on and on by obe mistake and that is a serious valancing issue, that is in no way justified by an assassins low health.

Light attack spam of certain characters is too fast and whole the actual upper light of a warden is fast, his recovery time to do it again, is relatively long.

DrExtrem
02-20-2017, 09:32 PM
I only collected the indicator time, because that is, what people are looking at.

The standard switch time for the guard is irrelevant, if you are staggered, because while recovering from it, you can not change your guard. You can not do anything.

The core problem of bring staggered is not, that the switching time for the guard is too high - it is the time you need to recover from blows. If you block the first attack of an enemy, you will kot have a problem at all - even I could manage it with a lawbringer, to block the first attack. If the attack is blocked, the attacker needs some time to recover and can not connect (exception is the shugoki - example).
But once you are stuck in the chain of being hit, recovering from the hit and bringing up your guard in time and into the right direction, it gets hairy.

Keep in mind, that a lot of people who play for honor, don't have experience with fighting games.

Imvho light attack spam should be slowed down.

DrExtrem
02-20-2017, 11:03 PM
But that is the whole premise of the topic ;)



I keep that in mind, but that has nothing to do with balance. Rather that people lack the experience to talk about balance on a qualified level.



Not sure what options assassins then have left.

It has to do with balance. If some characters are too hard to counter for the average player, the balance is in question.

You have to admit, that light spam is too easy and too effective for the pay off you get.

If the only option of an assassin is to spam others to death - especially as a counter attacker - their design is flawed. Btw. They still have very nice dodge attacks, that are pretty good against players and even bots (who generally block everything). They can still parry - a pk can get a free gb out of a parry and after the fix, the tripple stab will be very powerful again. The assassins dodge are also the best in the game and free.

Assassins still have options, jf their disproportionally effective light spam would be less of a problem. Maybe they would actually start to fight.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 11:07 PM
Seriously, it doesn't stop... Everyone understands chum, you don't think it's even an issue. Even after implying it and than stating you didn't dismiss it.

So no need to worry if you are right and your take on it was abundantly clear and loud a long time ago. Reason to keep on actively going through the effort of bringing the discussion down? Seriously starts to annoy.

Compare attacks speeds and time to blocks all you want. No one said it was impossible to block a first attack.

Find whichever loophole you think fits to try and ridicule the thread all you want, call it irrelevant, the relevant point is the sum of recovery after hit along with the time to stance change in relation to time to attack. This doesn't fall into your safe and possible to do logic.

If it is in fact impossible to actively do, it obviously affects balance. If you'd at least actually try to experience this yourself instead of spending your time in the effort of bringing this down. But I'm willing to wager you didn't.

assassins should have skilled timing to perform moves and connect combos. and their chains are completely blockable by the rest of the chars we aren't even trying to discuss here. What does it even have to do with anything?

If this isn't toxic and thread derailing I honestly don't know what is.

We get it! As far as you're concerned no one suggesting the thread has legitimacy even understands mechanics, has experience in fighting games or is even qualified to comment on balance. Pretty insulting and childish to keep on implying while at the same time indirectly stating it was never your intention. Again, dealt with this kind of attitude so many times before I can spot it when I see it.

Seriously got old a long time ago. Is this where you get your fun from?

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 11:11 PM
It has to do with balance. If some characters are too hard to counter for the average player, the balance is in question.

You have to admit, that light spam is too easy and too effective for the pay off you get.

If the only option of an assassin is to spam others to death - especially as a counter attacker - their design is flawed. Btw. They still have very nice dodge attacks, that are pretty good against players and even bots (who generally block everything). They can still parry - a pk can get a free gb out of a parry and after the fix, the tripple stab will be very powerful again. The assassins dodge are also the best in the game and free.

Assassins still have options, jf their disproportionally effective light spam would be less of a problem. Maybe they would actually start to fight.

And that's generally speaking. The thread is trying to discuss a specific set of match ups. Geez.

Am I the only one not naive enough and able to see through the demeanor?

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 11:21 PM
Nobody is asking for the game to become easier.

You have Orochi 2nd top light guaranteed hit, same with Warden 2nd side light and Nobushi's 3rd light chain guaranteed hit. You have chars with certain guaranteed hits after successful guard break that are all the same despite match up. These are balanced mechanics.

Certain combos and linked attacks being blockable in some match ups and not in others is not balanced. It is in fact impossible to block specific moves against specific chars in specific match ups. This aren't guaranteed hits or meant mechanics. Pretty obvious.

And than you also have obnoxious behavior that insistes on being seemingly polite and serious while subtly and constantly insulting and derailing a discussion. For no reason I'll add.

Congratz on being that kind of guy

DrExtrem
02-20-2017, 11:21 PM
Yes.
We are talking about assassins with their fast attack speed and the ability not to block properly.

The thing is, that all classes have the same problem, when they are hit in quick succession. It does not matter, if i am playing as a warden or lawbringer. Hit recovery time was the same.

This means, that this is a general problem of the games design and that fast heroes can make use of it.

Braegulfer
02-20-2017, 11:28 PM
true. but balance is not a function of skill. while it is desirable that the game is as easy as possible, it is not required for a balanced game.

This dude gets it, completely and has even used (gasp) data HE gathered to back it up instead of just using someone else's data to try and make a plea for a balance adjustment that, mechanically, isn't needed.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 11:29 PM
Yes.
We are talking about assassins with their fast attack speed and the ability not to block properly.

The thing is, that all classes have the same problem, when they are hit in quick succession. It does not matter, if i am playing as a warden or lawbringer. Hit recovery time was the same.

This means, that this is a general problem of the games design and that fast heroes can make use of it.

If I pick a Kensei for example, even being hit by the first attack I'll block every second attack from any assassin.

Also, in anyother fighting game recovery times and penalties don't depend on the char that takes the hit but on the char or skill that hits them, basically defining which combos are possible or not independently of match up. Which is the discussion.

rcwd
02-20-2017, 11:37 PM
I dont really see how different times for blocking on different characters is "unbalanced"

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 11:45 PM
Data is valid if attacker would hit always the same stance and slow defender already matching that stance. Block would be achieved. This was known and never contested

Data does not account for stance change or ability to match the stance even if command input is done asap.

It certainly doesn't prove it's possible do actively block. It also doesn't even set a frame time for when the input is possible in order to further look into the discussion, and compare it to stance change speed and calculate "how difficult" it would be in terms of timing for the case it even was possible.

But sure...

Braegulfer
02-20-2017, 11:48 PM
Data is valid if attacker would hit always the same stance and slow defender already matching that stance. Block would be achieved. This was known and never contested

Data does not account for stance change or ability to match the stance even if command input is done asap.

It certainly doesn't prove it's possible do actively block. It also doesn't even set a frame time for when the input is possible in order to further look into the discussion, and compare it to stance change speed and calculate "how difficult" it would be in terms of timing for the case it even was possible.

But sure...

That's EXACTLY what his data showed, there is a gap, well within the range of human reflexes, between the guard shifts and offensive stance changes. That's EXACTLY what he was illustrating.

DrExtrem
02-20-2017, 11:50 PM
so in conclusion we have no impact from the guard stances beeing slower?

Nope.

It is still very relevant. The first hit is essential and it is easier to land against an opponent, that needs longer to adjust his guard.

While being staggered, the hit recovery time is more important though.

I always thought that engineers are able to see mire than one later of a problem.


Btw. your data is as flawed as mine, because we made the data by ourselves - it might point into a certain direction but after all, only ubisoft Montreal can provide solid data.


Anecdote:
I have fought only a few mp games in domination (I value my blood pressure and sanity) but they were filled with orochis and other assassin classes. The orochi almost exclusively spammed light attacks and were leading their team. I however, was able to block most of their first hits and could punish their rare heavies with GBs and brute force. I would say, that I beheaded them quite regularly and they only were able to kill me, if they ganged up or caught me off guard and spammed me. Their skill was not high but their score was.

neogeo___
02-20-2017, 11:50 PM
That's EXACTLY what his data showed, there is a gap, well within the range of human reflexes, between the guard shifts and offensive stance changes. That's EXACTLY what he was illustrating.

Yeah, if you disregard the hit penalty recovery that is an fundamental part of the equation

neogeo___
02-21-2017, 12:11 AM
No ppl said that after being hit it is impossible to block and therefor interrupt the light attack chains of the fastest heroes while also presenting other specific examples and assuming they relate to the slow stance speed of some chars.


They never said they could not keep defense by blocking against attacks as long as they're never hit and so have no recovery penalty to account for. They said that the hit recovery and slow speed to stance switch affected these heroes so much that actively blocking was impossible.

This was stated, emphasized and even repeated since the very start

DrExtrem
02-21-2017, 12:11 AM
It is possible, in the sense that the fit recovery time and the duration if the actual strike is comparable.

Although a 1 or 2 frame window is quite small AND you need to know from where the enemy will strike before he telegraphs it.

Hit recovery was always the same - conqueror, berserker .. did not matter.

Reasonable bounds is relative.

DrExtrem
02-21-2017, 12:30 AM
Emphasis on "for me personally"

Easier to play - button mashing - and with success. This sounds like a balancing issue.

DrExtrem
02-21-2017, 12:40 AM
If you start to answer with links, the diskussion is over.

Simple

neogeo___
02-21-2017, 01:04 AM
Not differ. But missing the most important part. Hit penalty recovery.

Let's be pragmatic here.

Not 100% sure but I think it's pseudo safe to assume that all chars have the same hit recovery penalties for light attacks, heavy attacks, throws, bashes, and staggers by hitting an object. These are therefore constants.

The variables pertinent to the discussion would be the attack speed for light attacks for each assassin and the block stance speed to each slower class.

If you put this into two separate scenarios:

__

First being a wide and commonly accepted one, every class with the exception of the slowest classes, can block an assassins 2nd attack even if the 1st one hit. It is possible. I think it's safe to say no one will debate this.

__

Second scenario being assassins against the slowest classes, that's the one in debate here. How would one calculate it to be possible or not?


[Hit recovery penalty time] + [time to stance switch] < [time to connect 2nd chain attack] , while if that holds to be true ; [time to connect 2nd chain attack] - {[hit recovery time penalty]+[time to stance switch]} > [minimum reflex time considered humanly possible]

__

This is basically it, but obviously if any other chars can do it, if most values are constants independent of the match up and even if you consider a say peacekeeper light attack time to connect as a constant and you are left with only 1 variable in the equation, time to stance switch, some very different values appear for sure.
Obviously this could just time the time window to react is smaller, if the case how small and is it actually reasonably possible? Is it possible at all? If not, wouldn't this be broken and not an intended mechanic as earlier stated in the thread?

Considering the variables, Occam's Razor would definitely suggest that it all boils down to the time to switch guard which, as linked in OP shows clear discrepancies in value, and only the ones with the slower times to switch are being subject to complains (be them legitimate or not)

Disregarding the most important value in the problem the thread is considering seems illogical to me.

Will say again, looking for easier mechanics is one thing, looking not to have impossible match ups with unfair differences when compared to the rest of the roster is another. I always advocate for a higher skill cap and timing required within fighting games, prefer promoting skill play and precise input over button mash to match timing. But having an impossible or seemingly impossible mechanic for human standards is an entirely different thing.

Zyernes
02-22-2017, 12:06 AM
Would at least like to voice opinion on this being a serious issue I think needs looking into as well.

I'm 33 and big into fighting games (top 1% ranking in SF5 and a couple others) so used to the technical dexterity requirements of fighting games, though my reactions have clearly gone down with the years (I like to think being replaced with better intuition but that's neither here nor there).

In this game I've been pushed to have a style of ignoring the stances of my enemies until right as the animations are going off, this has come from fighting way too many people playing Warden/Orochi/PK using the crazy fast zone attacks. Generally I leave my defensive stance in the most 'dangerous' side against a specific hero with top being default if the hero doesn't have one and react to animations/red indicators in other directions. This means every first attack coming my way unless they are attacking into my current stance has both my reaction time AND the stance switch time tacked onto it.

In closed/open beta I played generally Kensei with a little bit of PK/Warden/Zerker and I honestly felt my defense was near impenetrable. Other than Warden/Orochi/PK top/zone pressure, no class could hit or GB me without some kind of feint/whiff/setup to open my defenses or pull my attention away from defending. Light attack spam? I honestly didn't even know it was an issue then as I could always react to the first icon and block it.

Then comes release and I finally get my hands on Lawbringer like I was waiting for, except my defense just plummeted. Not just PK light spam, but other relatively fast lights started giving me issues. I honestly started thinking my reactions had just gotten to the point where I was no longer physically capable of blocking this stuff even though I had done so near perfectly just recently, it just didn't make sense that such a change happened so quickly.

That said, as a fighting game player I adapted and played around what I thought had become a weakness of mine, I started playing keep out against anyone with fast attacks to just not let them in that range I felt I was now weak in and it's been working with moderate success. I did this because I too had watched a stream of HandheldBrandon saying all block stance switching was the same and him having such direct access to the devs gave it some weight I never felt the need to doubt.

Since release I've basically played nothing but Lawbringer except the forced few games required for orders, but after reading this I went and picked PK and did a few duels and my defense is back, it apparently hadn't gone anywhere like I had thought. Even just the knowledge that this is a thing turned out to be a game changer for me, it will literally change how I play the game now. I'd already been struggling with Lawbringer's lack of offensive options but now I don't see the point of continuing with it til it gets changed some.

My reactions may very well be below average now, which is fine, but the combination of my reaction times with the slower stance switching on initial attacks becomes too much for me to defend myself vs these faster attacks. Now knowing this I can at least weigh my options of sticking to a style that keeps fast attackers out and play these slower classes still, or pick up a faster switching one and be able to handle myself up close again.

So at the very least this needs to be known, and even if it is intended they may want to consider reducing the differences between them or speeding them all up so even the slower ones are decently fast as it's enough to turn someone like me from a wall to swiss cheese depending on the character I pick.

Someone put in the thread earlier that a zerker light switching sides is 33frames at 60fps. Human reaction speed at 250ms is a good average place, or 15 frames. Video games tend to have between a 5-9 frame input lag, so we'll go with 7. Visual input delay of 2 frames on a below average monitor. So your looking at a 9 frame window on average before the blocking delay comes into play. In the same post the fastest Lawbringer blocking speed was 9 frames. This brings it down to exactly 0 frame margin of error at average human responses and equipment to be able to block that light attack with a Lawbringer. So slow reaction speed people need not apply.

That is not counting what effect latency has. And from what I've seen the simulation they use seems pretty close to a rollback system as seen by someone nearly parrying an ability of yours but failing first plays as them blocking it with the sound and then they instantly get hit as it corrects. This is good because it doesn't cause any slow down that happens in some 1 on 1 fighting games, but this also means someone with high latency will effectively have frames skipped as they do things. This means that 33 frame swing may only be 30 frames coming from an average latency. His client says he pressed light attack on frame 0 but by the time it reaches your computer 2 frames have passed with his character just standing there. Once it actually reaches your client it gets told on frame 0 he started that attack and on frame 33 it will land, but since your already at frame 2 you suddenly go to frame 3 as it updated and he's 3 frames into his swing already by the time your client is updating it on your screen.

This is not counting that zerker has relatively slow lights compared to lights from heroes like PK/Orochi/Warden Top/etc. Many of the non assassin heroes will have their fastest moves matching or close to it.

And finally this is not counting for below average human reflexes (us on the other side of the hill).

These are all rough estimates but it's clear there is an issue of the stance switching being too slow for these classes or the lights being too fast for the assassins. The devs themselves said they had to make sure everything was reactable, but this is getting too close to the point of being unreactable for many people and setups.

To me not a huge change is needed, as if the frames are correct from that post (which it honestly looks like there should be a bigger gap from the video, but I'll take the numbers) then it only took 3 additional frames for me to go from impossible and needing to guess to very good defenses.

From a balance standpoint it's actually pretty ridiculous though. Harder hitting attacks are balanced by slow speed, high stamina cost or difficulty in setting up, higher mobility is balanced by lower health pools and vice versa. There is actually no reason for defensive options to have different speeds, the ones that have slower have no advantage they are given in return and the ones that have faster have nothing taken away. Something like slower defense stances would need something like superior block or longer stagger after parries for it to make any sense.

TLDR:
Thread is info that should get out there as it changes how I play now.

With all other input delay including human reaction speeds, slow defense switching classes have a 0 frame margin of error at average human reactions to block the zerker light attack, which is the slowest of the three assassins. If you have below average reflexes and or attention not 100% on defense? Good luck blocking.

Silly from balance standpoint as the slower switching classes gain nothing in their defense to balance the fact they are slower. Higher HP is there to help balance lower movement speed and lackluster dodging ability, not an inability to block some attacks because those attacks will just be abused on you and your extra bar of HP is meaningless. Something like superior block or longer parry stagger times would be a good balancing mechanic to have slower stance switching. Harder to parry with but more effective parries. That or just make blocking times universal.

Zyernes
02-22-2017, 02:18 AM
would you kindly make a video versus a level 3 bot berserker as any fast blocking char and upload it? For me it was either way impossible to react to every move :)

Sure thing: https://youtu.be/ydBIzS_EL8c

I could have done it a 3rd time to get a perfect one since the bot did GB me once, but you can see it's just cause I actually started my GB cancel too early and so it got grabbed and I couldn't cancel which is getting fixed in the update they talked about. I say third cause the first time I tried to show off a bit and put damage on lethal, but apparently zerker bot still kills you with block damage. :P

I didn't attack or parry or anything since all that's just killing the bots stamina or forcing it to block so it can't go offensive.

All that said it doesn't look quite as nice when I do that as the lawbringer, I'm apparently right at the edge of being able to block it all and lawbringer puts me into the swiss cheese side of it.

Prior_Heahmund
02-22-2017, 02:36 AM
Some classes are built for blocking, some are not. All of them have different strength and weakness. Being 100% honest the only thing this post really proves is that people don't like to have to adapt to who they are fighting. As a Warlord I struggle with the Fat Samurai, and the chick with the long spear. I have to adapt to get better, so does everyone. The classes are balaced.

Zyernes
02-22-2017, 02:44 AM
The classes are far from balanced. Even claiming they are currently balanced is laughable with lawbringer, valk and raider currently how they are. That's not even including the defense switching speed.

I can understand loving the game but don't let that love for it blind you to it's faults like balance and p2p. It has issues and the fact that it has other issues means this could /possibly/ be one of them. Ignoring that is putting your head in a hole so we instead discuss it and see if it is actually one of the issues and hope the devs see it and decide it's fine the way it is or that it needs changing.

Also your logic doesn't really make sense when the very classes with temporary blocking that is supposed to mark them as slightly less defensive are actually better blockers than classes labeled defensive and counter-attackers.

Prior_Heahmund
02-22-2017, 02:50 AM
The classes are far from balanced. Even claiming they are currently balanced is laughable with lawbringer, valk and raider currently how they are. That's not even including the defense switching speed.

I can understand loving the game but don't let that love for it blind you to it's faults like balance and p2p. It has issues and the fact that it has other issues means this could /possibly/ be one of them. Ignoring that is putting your head in a hole so we instead discuss it and see if it is actually one of the issues and hope the devs see it and decide it's fine the way it is or that it needs changing.

Also your logic doesn't really make sense when the very classes with temporary blocking that is supposed to mark them as slightly less defensive are actually better blockers than classes labeled defensive and counter-attackers.

Counter-Attackers are only good if you can actually counter the attack. Every class has strengths and weaknesses. I don't have blind love. I still have not received what I have paid for and I am pissed. I have no issue with the balance. It works like rock, paper and scissors (sometimes a good set of scissors beats a rock). I will agree with you on one thing. P2P is a horrible system, and there is no reason for it to exist in 2017.

Zyernes
02-22-2017, 02:58 AM
Counter-Attackers are only good if you can actually counter the attack. Every class has strengths and weaknesses. I don't have blind love. I still have not received what I have paid for and I am pissed. I have no issue with the balance. It works like rock, paper and scissors (sometimes a good set of scissors beats a rock). I will agree with you on one thing. P2P is a horrible system, and there is no reason for it to exist in 2017.

Still you claim something that just isn't true, the game is far from a perfect rock, paper scissors right now. Stuff like that only happens in battles where people aren't making the best use of the characters.

I honestly just don't even understand how someone could claim the classes are balanced with Warden as good as it is compared to Lawbringer/Valk/Raider as bad as they are.

Another thing to consider in your statement is that even the devs are saying it's not balanced because they are making balancing adjustments. You can look on the reddit forum for upcoming changes they already have planned and more they are working on. So even the devs of the game don't agree with you on it currently being balanced.

CaptainPwnet
02-22-2017, 09:58 AM
I didn't read through all 16 pages but isn't the issue with the stance switch 2 fold? So it means the speed at which you can switch your block to meet attacks in time is hampered mechanically by your character despite your own reactions, which is incredibly unbalanced and silly.

But also does it not mean these classes cannot switch their attack direction in neutral to try and get by your opponents guard nearly as fast? By the numbers provided(of course who knows exactly how accurate they are but nonetheless) it means the slower classes can switch stance direction to bypass opponents guard at 1/3 of the speed. If this is the case is that not even more ridiculously unbalanced?

Personally I have definitely noticed this on Nobushi compared to zerker. In neutral against a decent player you will never land a hit as nobushi cause every light attack is so damn telegraphed and slow, even when feinting, it almost seems useless to feint for anything but parry/dodge baiting. But with zerker who has easily the slowest attacks of the assassins it seems much more viable to get a light attack through just by stance switching and feinting into lights is actually doable.

CaptainPwnet
02-22-2017, 10:31 AM
Yup they also have a disadvantage at attacking. However doesn't make it ridiculous imbalanced. Nobushi is handled as top tier char right now because other skills of her compensate this weakness.

Hidden stance for example hides your stance completely and she can't be partied into gb on lights.. You can not see only one aspect of a char and claim something.

Uhh nobushi is not considered top tier. A lot of new players complain about her, but she is a noob stomper and thats about it. Also Hidden stance is not as useful as you seem to think. Most characters attack faster than any of your followups out of hidden stance so you usually just get punished without your opponent even trying to do so but just spamming attacks. It works very well against things like warden shoulder bash, shield bashes and so on so forth. But otherwise it is VERY situational and not to mention it is vulnerable to GB if it was GB immune then it would be much better.

Yes it is also nice not being able to be parry punished but all a person has to do is slowly walk forward while defending and there really isn't anything nobushi can do about it except backup which accomplishes nothing and eventually you are out of room to move or you are off the point in case of dominion.

Pretty much the entirety of Nobushi's moveset only works if your opponent plays reckless or doesn't know how to block/dodge. She relies entirely on her opponent making mistakes and has no way to properly get by someones defenses without them just playing poorly.

Kawira1
02-22-2017, 10:33 AM
For me atm the only real OP problems are:

1) too fast aoe for some characters making feinting vs them impossible (warden, orochi)
2) Warlord not having any weakness in defense. Patient Warlord is just impossibru to open up

And ofc underpowered Lawbringer who needs more options for offense (maybe not generally speed but longer staggers for enemy etc)

SunT0uchEr
02-22-2017, 10:36 AM
I swear you mofos are a bunch of whining pu$$ies. Game just launched and you whine and whine and whine and whine. Sure there are a few broken things, LIke shugoki unblockable un parriable heavy attack(that is a bug) and maybe wardens votex that is a little bit too powerful. BUT THATS IT. STOP this **** at once and wait a 2-3 months for the meta to seettle STOOOOP .

CaptainPwnet
02-22-2017, 10:49 AM
Nobushi won battlefy 1on1. I claim that she is not as broken as you think she is.
Besides game is out for a week. People are learning and not everything is discovered.

What? You mean that match where I can clearly see exactly what I explained? The warden constantly gets hit by numerous very easy to block or even parry zone attacks. He fails to dodge the easiest to dodge unblockable kicks a few times that they are used(which is a free punish pretty much. Also notice the nobushi does not do any light attacks in neutral and pretty much just uses zone attacks?

Perfect example of how I said that nobushi requires their opponent to allow you to win pretty much. I am also not saying she is broken, just quite undertuned compared to some of the other classes. But really all classes are undertuned compared to Warden, WL, PK, Orochi. A big part of it possibly due to the fact that her light attacks are borderline useless against anyone who can block fairly competently.

Even aside from whatever I have said, that match clearly shows something is wrong if a character is spamming one attack such as a zone attack to be effective while the basic light attacks are essentially deemed useless and unusable.

RoosterIlluzion
02-22-2017, 10:51 AM
I think block movement speed primarily has to do with the type of weapon being used. Obviously a pole axe is going to be slower than a sword, and more so than a dagger.
There is probably nothing more to it than that.

Valtaya
02-22-2017, 12:51 PM
What is the matter? So some heroes need longer to change a stance, and? Changing the balance from left to right when using a longsword or arming sword + dagger ist MUCH faster then a halberd... on the other hand, how about you make a comparison for "swing speeds"... you know, an overhead swing with halberd or 2handed axe is faster then a stab with arming sword while in right stance, though noone is complaining about... but when your heavies are blocking slower, yah, thats time for some serious testing.

Zyernes
02-22-2017, 02:59 PM
Exactly, classes play differently and maybe someone is better suited for one class than another. Sure there is a threshold where you are not able to perform well and maybe thatīs exactly the case here.
This, however, doesnīt mean that it is unbalanced and it surely doesnīt mean it is a serious balance issue that needs to change.

In the current state of the game, 3-6 frames do not break the game into oblivion as some people think. There are far more obvious balance concerns to tackle, which are not really influenced at all by this right here. People are not fit enough in this game as to need the last 1% of advantage to win and this is still for all we know a tool for balancing stuff out. Maybe those chars get compensated in another way or it is a deliberate build in weakness to those chars.
You could make everything the same, true, i also stated that i probably would have done the same, but you donīt need to. The game is asymmetrical and in this version this is just another parameter.

As i said in my fist post, i will take the info (and more which i learned out of this) and get on with my game because i really can not do anything about it.

It would be amazing to get a developer diary, where they discuss stuff like their reasoning behind balance choices and approaches.. But then again, they would be criticised to hell and thatīs not worth the effort in the end.. sad that this community is like it is.

PS.: Funny thing as i was testing stuff, occasionally the block speed of lawbringer is also 7 frames. Maybe it has something to do with animations or stuff.

3-6 frames is a big issue, especially if your used to fighting games as they can very easily break the game into oblivion if those frames push or pull an ability into unreactable or reactable by average human standards. Something going from reactable to unreactable is a pretty big issue as seen by all the good zone and light attacks (Warden, Orochi, PK) which if you notice are also considered the top 3 classes atm by the community, add just 3-6 frames to those zone attacks and it will totally change the meta. That's basically what this slower defense does, your effectively making those already unreactable moves faster by way of making your defense slower. Not only does it make those moves more impossible to deal with, it starts adding more moves to the list that then become impossible.

Is it the biggest issue the game has at this moment? Possibly no, but what's being argued is that it currently is an actual issue. When it can turn a player from near perfect defense to bad defense it's clearly impacting gameplay quite a bit and the sad part is most don't even know it exists. If it's a balancing factor it needs to be voiced quite clearly as hiding faults in characers that impact gameplay that greatly is no way to handle a title like this.

So I can understand your argument that you believe it's an intentional balancing factor, though I do disagree because by their own accord the dev staff of the game are actually horrible at the game and they clearly did not see what parry as a defensive mechanic or zone attacks that are unreactable would do to the meta. Them suddenly having balanced a totally different aspect of the game down to the frame is a bit suspect considering their other design choices.

So even if it was intentional, bringing attention to it will at least make them consider if it was a good decision that's balanced against whatever secret counter balancing mechanic that may or may not exist yet. If it wasn't and they just thought "Slow weapons should obviously switch sides slower." Without considering the defensive ramifications, at least they'll see them and have a chance to rectify the issue.

The devs clearly make mistakes as seen by them already having to reverse other changes they've made from open beta to release like the GB cancel mechanic. This could easily be one and voicing it is better than not.

Feydakin_
02-22-2017, 03:06 PM
Warlord and Conqueror should also be on the 'slow' list.

GungZA
02-22-2017, 03:19 PM
contrary to what you might think balancing and consitancy is not the same thing, giving all the characters a consistant block speed will actually unbalance the game because the block speed is balanced against other factors. Looking at the block speed in isolation of movement speed, side step range, attack speed and range, stamina consumption, throw distance, attack damage, character abilities etc is misleading. This post is interesting to know what your character can do in terms of blocking but useless in terms of discussing balance.

Zyernes
02-22-2017, 04:04 PM
contrary to what you might think balancing and consitancy is not the same thing, giving all the characters a consistant block speed will actually unbalance the game because the block speed is balanced against other factors. Looking at the block speed in isolation of movement speed, side step range, attack speed and range, stamina consumption, throw distance, attack damage, character abilities etc is misleading. This post is interesting to know what your character can do in terms of blocking but useless in terms of discussing balance.

But balance can often mean consistency. So far For Honor is very much akin to a fighting game and yet every fighting game gives equal speed to universal defensive mechanics.

And a lot of people keep saying it's balanced against something else, but what exactly is it balanced against? Attack speed, damage, stamina and range are generally the balance of offensive strings. You have a long reaching hard hitting move? Probably needs to be slow and use a decent chunk of stamina. Fast attack and average damage? Probably needs short range and average to light stamina. One issue with the offensive balancing is that parry basically warps this badly and further punishes the slow attacks because parrying is game changing but that is of course a totally different discussion.

Slow walking/dashing speed is generally balanced around more health. Harder to escape vortex gameplay and just get to or out of where you need to at any given moment, so your given more health to just live through those situations. The reverse of course being if your fast enough to dodge or run out of those situations you don't need as much health as your just going to take less hits.

There currently doesn't exist a counter balance to why a class should have a slower defense. The lack of speed on defensive abilities isn't even consistent with character mobility/weapon speed. You have Warden with a mix of some of the fastest (top light/zone and decent side lights) and slowest (top heavy) attacks in the game and respectable range, yet it's up there with shield users and dagger wielders in terms of defensive speed. I would have said it's balance for the classes that have long enough reach as to not get GB on heavy attacks but Kensei breaks that mold and actually ties for fastest, while Nobushi who has faster attacks and better mobility than Kensei actually has much worse blocking speed.

It's easy enough to claim "Hey they are balanced against other factors." But it's certainly not anything obvious and for an issue that changes gameplay so much you'd think the balancing factor for it would change gameplay just as much. If it isn't then clearly there could be an issue there with needing to increase it if they actually have a balancing factor in place. Hence it needs to be voiced and hopefully either clarified of why it's in place and it's counter balancing mechanics, or possibly seen that it's an issue they didn't realize and fix it.

Fighting games are some of the hardest games to balance and this is UBI's first attempt at something close, to automatically go in assuming they have it perfectly balanced from the start is rather silly as even they don't think so with changes they are making. If they have clearly already made bad decisions on balance then they aren't perfect and any strange choice that doesn't have an obvious counter balance mechanic in place can be suspect.

For awhile now many thought conq and zerker light attacks being a free GB on block was intended as some kind of balancing factor toward their gameplay. They were huge drawbacks that forced the characters to play in completely different ways or else be super risky. It was a balancing factor that was huge for these characters but was such a factor intended? Apparently not as it's being changed.

So while it is early in the meta, just deciding to not voice possible issues can actually be detrimental to the game too. Sometimes they are actually legit things that need working on.

Zyernes
02-22-2017, 04:38 PM
But there are people making plain blanket statements of balance being fine or that this is not an issue, which is the same as it not being worth having attention brought to it. In just the last 2 pages we've had those exact statements. Game is balanced how it is now, and that this supposed issue is already balanced against an unknown counter mechanic (though they didn't say what.)

Mamosha_
02-22-2017, 04:45 PM
Pls buff holdar it is slowest charakter in the game. U cannot def any atacks and can atack cause u are to slow! Do something!

GungZA
02-22-2017, 04:48 PM
Fighting games do not give eqaul speed to 'universal defensive mechanics' whatever that is. Every character has different frame data on top of that every move has unique frame data to recover from block, you also have differnet speeds of recovery depending on what attack you are being hit with (known as block stun and hit stun) depending what character you are fighting against and what moves they are using the block stun penalty will change, without this punishing moves would be impossible because everyone could block anything and could recover fast enough to punish anything, combos would be impossible. People who don't understand the mechanics they say are unbalanced should not comment on those mechanics...

Zyernes
02-22-2017, 05:07 PM
Fighting games do not give eqaul speed to 'universal defensive mechanics' whatever that is. Every character has different frame data on top of that every move has unique frame data to recover from block, you also have differnet speeds of recovery depending on what attack you are being hit with (known as block stun and hit stun) depending what character you are fighting against and what moves they are using the block stun penalty will change, without this punishing moves would be impossible because everyone could block anything and could recover fast enough to punish anything, combos would be impossible. People who don't understand the mechanics they say are unbalanced should not comment on those mechanics...

What you are listing are mechanics of individual moves, not of universal defensive mechanics. Think you might need to brush up on your fighting game mechanics, as I said universal mechanics and you started listing off block stun and hit stun which are inherent properties of actual attack moves even if they can be used defensively. If Ryu has a dragon punch at 3 frames and it has 15 frames of hit stop and 30 frames of recovery, none of that even matters because dragon punch is not a universal defensive mechanic. How is dragon punch in any way a universal mechanic to a character like Zangeif?

An example of a universal defensive mechanic is blocking in any fighting game. The very first frame these games get the input that you are holding back (or the block button for those games) they have your character able to defend themselves from attacks. Doesn't matter if you are playing Zangeif the slowest character in the game or Cammy the fastest, if you aren't doing anything and someone starts up a swing in your direction you press back and it works the same for both characters.

Sadly even some of the things you mentioned are universal mechanics when you don't actually look at them from the incorrect standpoint of an attack being a universal mechanic like you were.

Hit Stun: Doesn't matter if your ryu or zangeif, you get hit by a move you go into hit stun for the exact same amount of time.

Block Stun: Doesn't matter if your ryu or zangeif, you block a move you go into block stun for the exact same amount of time.

THESE are universal mechanics that go between the characters. Not that each hit stun/block stun/startup/whatever has the exact same data for each move, but that when forced upon another character they all have the exact same effect.

In nearly every fighting game if someone uses a 33 frame move on you, you have 33 frames to hold back regardless of what character you are playing. On the other hand in For Honor if someone uses a 33 frame zerker light attack against you, you have varying amount of frames to block it based on what character you are playing. See the difference?

cTrix
02-22-2017, 05:27 PM
This thread explains why it's impossible for me on Nobushi to defend against Peacekeepers just light attack spamming me to death, nevermind how it's impossible to punish side dash heavies. Guess I just won't be playing that class anymore. Nice **** Ubisoft. 90% of people playing Assassins, but I'm sure that's fine.

Zyernes
02-22-2017, 05:36 PM
This is a difference but it doesn't automatically make it an issue that needs to change. And we are still unsure if we indeed have a problem or just something to get used to. No one actually cares to bring more than his own opinion so far. Opinions don't prove balance.

Devs are, after all, free to make their own interpretation of fighting mechanics. They are in no way bound to whatever other games did so far, you have no ground arguing that it is wrong the way it is. Irrelevant if it is balanced or not.

They are of course free to make the game they way they are, but my grounds for the argument is that it negatively affects characters in ways that make them grossly inferior, and hence do impact balance. I've even included a video showing how the faster speed can make me basically untouchable by level 3 bots, yet there decision to have other classes slower makes many of those attacks impossible to block with average human reactions.

So the question is then if whatever these classes gain by having this slower defense is indeed balanced, why don't we notice it and why isn't it putting these classes ahead of the rest in these areas enough to be considered on par when all things are considered? Right now I doubt you can suggest something they gain that isn't balanced by something else inherently for those classes. The only class that can even come close to being considered alright that also has that issue is Nobushi, and this is mostly because the class is built around negating that very defensive failure by having abilities meant to keep people out of that zone (and also fast enough to not have everything be parry bait).

That's some pretty drastic effects for a balancing mechanic that people can't even put a counter mechanic to, starts to make you think that perhaps it's unbalanced?

If they are all supposed to be like Nobushi in having the ability to keep people away from them to counter the fact that they have slower defenses, then that balance is currently failing as Raider, Lawbringer and Shugoki do not have this. Their attacks are too slow and hence even if they have long reach, they are unable to make use of it for the sake of just keeping people away without getting parried. Also Kensei has this exact style and yet it also is matched for fastest blocking speed, so even that isn't consistent.

I guess this does bring us back to the fact that parry distorts the game quite a bit, but sadly unless they wish to drastically change parry or remove it entirely, the game has to be balanced around it. And hell even these faults needing parry to be changed to not be so drastic would in itself be a balance change needed because of this very issue.

Speeding up the blocks may NOT be the answer, it's of course the obvious, easy, and most used by similar games, but it doesn't have to be the only one. Whatever it's supposed to be balanced against (if anything), it's currently not working and so something needs adjusting to put it in line.

SoveRReignN
02-22-2017, 05:47 PM
While there hasn't been testing done quite yet on the validity of it I can really only see the reason for this to be in the game so that some characters have a harder time blocking attacks from other characters.

My logic in coming to that conclusion is that I can't find another reason for even having a difference of block speed in the game. If it doesn't matter why did the devs put it in there?

One of the reason I made the post/recorded the evidence was that as a Nobushi I felt I was getting wrecked by Orochi's light attacks coming from all sides. I then saw some people saying that they thought some characters might have slower block speeds, so I tested it.


Would it make sense for a Warlord to not being able to block rather fast? He's a counter attacker. Any counter attacker should. I had issues with dogging as well when doge would not trigger at all.

Zyernes
02-22-2017, 05:56 PM
Would it make sense for a Warlord to not being able to block rather fast? He's a counter attacker. Any counter attacker should. I had issues with dogging as well when doge would not trigger at all.

It makes sense but the issue is it's not universal. Lawbringer for example is also listed as a counter attack and a vast majority of his moveset is about parry and counter attacking, moreso than the Warlord. Yet Lawbringer has the slowest stance switching speed which means it's core abilities are even harder to use than a simple Parry>GB by faster switching classes (can ignore the fact that the parry abilities are worthless as they are currently anyway).

It's just not consistent in any way. Counter attacks both have fast and slow switching defenses. Long reaches classes like Kensei/Nobushi/etc have both fast and slow switching defenses.

Zyernes
02-22-2017, 08:06 PM
... I just found something very unsettling about the blocking while doing my own frame counting.

So far it's looking like the faster classes I've tested have the ability to /correct/ their stance. By this I mean if your in right stance and you input left stance and then immediately input top or back to right stance the game does 2 different things depending on how late you inputed the second stance switch

First is if it was very early, as in the stance hadn't fully switched to the new direction yet, the new direction comes out at the correct frame as if you had inputed it straight from the first one. So I'm getting 8 frames on the Warden stance switch on a single swap, but if I do a double swap starting right to left to top I still get 8 frames when the white shield appears top.

Second is if I do the second switch a little late the new shield actually comes extremely fast. So with Warden again if I start right and go left to top but I do the buttons slightly slow so the top come right after the shield goes white on the left, it immediately jumps to the new direction in a frame or two.

Both of these are good in that it lets you quickly correct a bad block direction. You can see this in my earlier defense of the level 3 zerker bot with warden I'd sometimes input a side and have to quickly switch it to a different side, which happens near instantly.


Now for the bad part.

The slower switches classes seem to totally lack the first ability to auto correct before the white icon appears on the new side. So unlike the Warden that can go from right to left and then switch to top before the icon even fully blinks white on the left side and have it all take the same exact frames as if they had gone right straight to top, the Lawbringer switching at the same speed delays with their first stance switch from right to left even if you immeidately put in that top direction. The top is then buffered and comes out only after the full long already slow Lawbringer defense swap frames happen and then it swaps to the top. Not only does that happen, but the second buffered swap of the Lawbringer takes LONGER than a normal swap does by 2-3 frames consistently.

So this means for example as a Warden I can go from right to left to top in 8 frames if my white shield never shows left cause of too fast inputs, or I can go from right to left to top in 9 frames total if I was a bit slow and my left side went full white shield for a moment. This is compared to a Lawbringer going right to left in 10 frames and then left to top in 12 frames for a total of 22 frames if you happen to need to adjust your input. That's more than double the time it takes for a Warden to do it.

After going through all the characters with this I've found there seems to be 3 different groups of blocking speed, and then 3 different groups of ability to correct inputed defense stance.

for general single stance swapping:



You've got your fast defense swap chars of Assassins that seem to average in at around 6 frames
You've got your average defense swap chars of all the none slow characters that seem to average in at around 8 frames
You've got your slows chars of Raider, Nobushi, Lawbringer and Shugoki that seem to average in at around 10 frames


For correcting to a different stance when you've started swapping:



You've got the fast correction classes that can correct stances quick enough from 2 angles with 0 frame loss and only 2-3 additional frames if corrected after the first white shield appears. This group also has the ability to never lose their shield on the initial side if you correct back into it, so swapping from right to left and immediately back right just leaves your shield solid on the right side the entire time.
You've got the Conquerer who is by himself in this category as while he has average single swap speed, he can't auto correct with 0 frame loss, it forces him to fully go white in the second stance first and then takes an additional 6 frames to swap to the third stance. Lacks ability to keep shield white on single side if corrected back into it, going back into the same initial stance still takes the 8 frames initial swap and 6 frame corrected swap to block back in your initial direction.
You've got the slow chars of Raider, Nobushi, Lawbringer and Shugoki who actually stance swap SLOWER if you try and correct the stance. So a normal stance right to stance top is around 10 frames, but a stance right to stance left quickly corrected to stance top is 10 frames + 12 frames. Lacks ability to keep shield white on single side if corrected back into it, going back into the same initial stance still takes the 10 frames initial swap and 12 frame corrected swap to block back in your initial direction.


All this explains why there is also such a huge difference between the speeds displayed in the initial video from reddit and the general stance swapping frames people were getting for characters. The numbers certainly weren't 1/3rd of the speed as expected by the number of switches possible in the video. The reason apparently turns out to be there is a different defense correction mechanic involved that is limiting those same classes, so continued direction swaps slow them down while it speeds up other classes.

Sadly this can actually be abused as well. Since the faster correction swapping classes can either swap fast enough through multiple directions without increasing their total frames required in blocking speed and if they quickly swap from one stance they just selected, the next stance is faster. You can improve your overall blocking speed by continuously switching stances and then reacting with the correct stance toward an incoming attack. It'll actually be as fast or up to 4x faster than having just sat in a stance and reacted to the attack direction.

So there you go, new system abuse mechanic apparently. Just rock block stick back and forth between two different directions (top and either left/right is probably easiest) and just react to attack directions and you'll block much faster with anything other than a Raider, Nobushi, Lawbringer, Shugoki and Conquerer.

Though that is an aside to the fact that all this severely cripples the slow swapping classes defenses. Warden blocking PK light spam? You can instantly correct any blocking direction mistakes you make on the fly with max of a 2 frame increase. Lawbringer trying the same thing? Good luck if you went the wrong direction first accidentally or in reaction to a feint, you will actually now block slower in trying to correct the wrong direction. So not only do you block initially slower but if you have any errors it becomes impossible to correct in time to block any fast lights, on the other hand it isn't even a road-bump to everyone else.

GungZA
02-22-2017, 08:58 PM
What you are listing are mechanics of individual moves, not of universal defensive mechanics. Think you might need to brush up on your fighting game mechanics, as I said universal mechanics and you started listing off block stun and hit stun which are inherent properties of actual attack moves even if they can be used defensively. If Ryu has a dragon punch at 3 frames and it has 15 frames of hit stop and 30 frames of recovery, none of that even matters because dragon punch is not a universal defensive mechanic. How is dragon punch in any way a universal mechanic to a character like Zangeif?

An example of a universal defensive mechanic is blocking in any fighting game. The very first frame these games get the input that you are holding back (or the block button for those games) they have your character able to defend themselves from attacks. Doesn't matter if you are playing Zangeif the slowest character in the game or Cammy the fastest, if you aren't doing anything and someone starts up a swing in your direction you press back and it works the same for both characters.

Sadly even some of the things you mentioned are universal mechanics when you don't actually look at them from the incorrect standpoint of an attack being a universal mechanic like you were.

Hit Stun: Doesn't matter if your ryu or zangeif, you get hit by a move you go into hit stun for the exact same amount of time.

Block Stun: Doesn't matter if your ryu or zangeif, you block a move you go into block stun for the exact same amount of time.

THESE are universal mechanics that go between the characters. Not that each hit stun/block stun/startup/whatever has the exact same data for each move, but that when forced upon another character they all have the exact same effect.

In nearly every fighting game if someone uses a 33 frame move on you, you have 33 frames to hold back regardless of what character you are playing. On the other hand in For Honor if someone uses a 33 frame zerker light attack against you, you have varying amount of frames to block it based on what character you are playing. See the difference?

My point is there is no universal mechanics, how fast you can block depends on the hit stun you recieve or the recovery frames of the move you just did, you are looking at things in a vacuum and that is not how these games work. The speed that you can block is meaningless if you are just standing there not recieving damage.

further more In fighting games you only have two block stances, crouching and standing, so the time it takes to change stances is determined by how fast your character can crouch or stand up, since all characters crouch the same speed their stance change speed is the same, but they all have different movement speeds, different jump floatiness, different back dashes and forward dashes, so no defensively these games are not consistent, but they are balanced for other factors, which includes evasive, defensive, offensive and special abilities.

balancing does not mean making all the characters the same, but to give all character the tools to deal with all or most of the other characters on the roster, and i think For Honor did this well. You still get matchups but you have lots mechanics to turn the matchup in your favour.

Fuqbois
02-22-2017, 09:31 PM
balancing does not mean making all the characters the same, but to give all character the tools to deal with all or most of the other characters on the roster, and i think For Honor did this well.

Yes but this doesn't mean its balanced, nobushi and raider block speed is to slow period, they need a buff, they don't need to have the same as the others, but they definetly need, she can't do anything against a PK.

Zyernes
02-22-2017, 09:47 PM
My point is there is no universal mechanics, how fast you can block depends on the hit stun you recieve or the recovery frames of the move you just did, you are looking at things in a vacuum and that is not how these games work. The speed that you can block is meaningless if you are just standing there not recieving damage.

Your point no longer makes sense as you are using inherent properties of attacks and then claiming that is a reason why there is no universal mechanics. It's like saying because Shugoki has demon ball that knocks you super far that there is no universal defensive mechanics. Notice how there is no actual logical connection? Your doing the same thing except with moves from a different game.

I specifically stated what WERE universal mechanics for those types of fighting games, though for whatever reason you decided to totally ignore them and still claim they don't exist.

Will use SF5 as an example but it applies to most fighting games



Block Speed: 1 frame universal between characters
Tech Speed (aka breaking a grab): 7 frame tech window universal between characters
Hit Stun: Universal between characters based on whatever the move is. So Cammy the small little girl will be in hit stun for 5 frames when hit by X move and Zangeif the hulking muscle monster will be in hit stun for 5 frames when hit by same move X. The recovery doesn't change based on character, aka the mechanic itself is universal, not the actual amount of hit stun between hundreds of attacks across however many characters.
Block Stun: Same as hit stun, you don't recover faster from block stun just because your character is big and strong looking.
V Reversal window
Chip Damage
Super Meter On Getting Hit


I mean dude I can seriously go on forever with this. All these are defensive mechanics that if any character is being hit by Y move the defensive options, consequences, damage, recovery, etc are the same for you regardless of what character you are playing when hit by move Y or attempting to block it.

If I have a combo that leaves a 1 frame gap (it's technically a frame trap but keeping it simple for non fighting game people) It doesn't matter what the enemy is playing, they will have that 1 frame gap when hit by that sequence of attacks.

Why this matters? Because that means they have an opportunity to block the next attack and it doesn't matter what character they are playing. If I smack the small girl in the head and have a slow sweep coming after, she doesn't recover faster or slower than the 8ft 400lb guy to block that attack. These are universal mechanics.

For Honor has these same universal mechanics in many places. A Lawbringer tried to grab you? You have the exact same escape window to cancel as an assassin as you would as a shugoki from that lawbringers GB. That window may very well change if your being grabbed by a Zerker instead, but whatever the zerker window is will be universal for anyone being hit with it, as in they all have the exact same amount of time to cancel it.

Now as for you claiming the speed of you blocking being meaningless, it means you could have an infinitely long block time and it would not matter. Does someone with a 1 frame block in For Honor have meaningless defensive improvements over someone with a 100 frame block? Of course not, because that 100 frame block makes it's impossible to block some (most) attacks.

Yes it is a drastic comparison, but it a clear one to show that these speeds aren't meaningless. These speeds actually have combat effectiveness and for many people will determine if something can or cannot be blocked regardless if they had just been standing there a moment before. I doubt even the people that think the slower speeds being on purpose and a balance mechanic in this thread would agree with you on the speed being totally meaningless. They might claim it's balanced, but I doubt they'd say all block speeds are meaningless.

Now if you want to discuss how any of those things above aren't universal between characters, then feel free. Saying they don't exist after they've been pointed out twice and ignoring them, or starting to talk about how a light punch from ryu is different than a heavy punch from ryu and so because they have different hit stun there are no universal mechanics just means this part of the discussion isn't worth continuing.


(edit because his post was edited):
You even further prove my point by bringing up crouching speed. Guess what you block a low attack you have to crouch? Oh everyone has the same crouching speed as you just said? Another defensive mechanic that is universal between characters. You then bring up movement speed as if that somehow has anything to do with the fact that everyone has the same crouching speed. It's again one of those leaps of logic.

Also no one said to make everything equal, make sure to reread the initial post you were responding to for refreshing the initual argument as your now changing what was being argued.

What was said was that "BLOCKING" was generally a mechanic that was universal between characters in fighting games and that it was one that was almost universal between all of them in the characters ability to block damage. That there currently seems to be no reason why this should be any different in For Honor as in it's current state of imbalance it is at least seeming like an issue.

I'm also still waiting for that question I asked earlier of what you actually see it balanced against. You seem to push rather hard that it is currently balanced and yet offer no response as to what is actually balancing it.

LegendaryPLANK
02-22-2017, 10:16 PM
I knew something was up. The increase in latency is making this a bigger issue than it probably is.

Zyernes
02-22-2017, 10:22 PM
But back to the new data.


now thatīs an interesting find.

Indeed. It's also sadly another kick to slow classes. This defensive gap just gets bigger and bigger and yet still there doesn't seem to be anything in place that they actually gain for having these huge drawbacks.

That 30-35 frame PK light becomes impossible if you read the wrong direction first as swap speed + correction speed + human reaction speed is already over even the 35 frame one and it's not counting latenty and game input lag.

While on the other hand if you just happen to be any of the classes that get the 0 frame correct speed you have an extra 14-15 frames of leeway which is actually human reaction. So those classes basically get double the normal human reaction time to pick the correct side if they initially started with a guess.

I think that's getting pretty damn far away from balanced.

CuD_
02-23-2017, 12:27 AM
Another interesting find and probably the "balancing" factor to the slower guard switch speed.
(i lose that term balancing factor losely, because i think that is the intention of the devs regarding this matter)

The slow switch classes (only tested lawbringer and Orochi) have their guard up the entire switch duration except the very last frame. Orochi immediately drops his guard and goes to the next stance.

Now, personally i would prefer fast speed without the guard retaining because most of the time you rather need to be in a specific position. But, yeah.. i believe this is the reasoning behind the differences. Clearly a lot of people have an easier time with fast switch and it just feels better, i would assume the devs just cut the times shorter than what is comfortable for most people.


https://youtu.be/iz3EJ3Y4O84

Assassins are different as their guard works different.

Instead of comparing Orochi, try another of the "not slow" but also not assassin classes for a better comparison on what I *think* you are trying to determine. Assassins have their special mechanics of guard dropping after a sec and having to redeploy it, so the UI could be deceiving as a comparison and better be SUPER responsive compared to other classes, otherwise they would be artificially gimped. Only assassin classes lose guard like that. I may be misreading what you are saying, but want to make sure this mechanical difference is understood.

I also noticed, BOTS do not seem to suffer from this issue at all, a bot of any of these classes seems able to react just fine, so this is just some weird limitation placed on players... from how it appears when fighting them, they are able to block second attacks that are nearly impossible for me to block. Something is up here, but whether it is intentional or not we wont know until UBISOFT will bother talking to their playerbase so we know WTF is up.

I am getting a little frustrated, because I love the hell out of this game, but the disconnects and laggy matches over the past little while are starting to wear my patience thin. I am hoping to hear something meaningful from Ubi... the community is putting in the work, they surely are too, why can they not discuss this with us so we know where the issue stands?

CuD_
02-23-2017, 12:39 AM
Yes i know, its late and i am tired. I need to check the other ones tomorrow. I just wanted to post this real quick as it seemed interesting to me.

It is interesting seeing it slowed down on Orochi, as there is a minor switching delay to them as well. Only super noticeable while slow, but there nonetheless.

The whole discussion has been pretty interesting, even if off the rails a few times ;)

Ultimately at this point all we can do is wait to hear from Ubi on what their intentions were so we know where we stand in this discussion. Their silence is disturbing.

Zyernes
02-23-2017, 12:50 AM
Another interesting find and probably the "balancing" factor to the slower guard switch speed.
(i lose that term balancing factor losely, because i think that is the intention of the devs regarding this matter)

The slow switch classes (only tested lawbringer and Orochi) have their guard up the entire switch duration except the very last frame. Orochi immediately drops his guard and goes to the next stance.

Now, personally i would prefer fast speed without the guard retaining because most of the time you rather need to be in a specific position. But, yeah.. i believe this is the reasoning behind the differences. Clearly a lot of people have an easier time with fast switch and it just feels better, i would assume the devs just cut the times shorter than what is comfortable for most people.


Issue is it doesn't really apply to anyone except Assassins. I believe the no blocking once you switch is part of Reflex their negative blocking mechanic and not actually a balance to the slower blocking classes.

You can see this because all of the other classes that are only 2 frames away from the assassins, aka the second/average blocking speed group, have the exact same blocking in the old direction until new direction is finished mechanic that you say is the counter balance for slower block speeds, yet theirs doesn't prevent them from quickly correcting their directions making extended blocking literally 3x faster on top of already blocking initially 2 frames faster.

Because of that it looks more like part of Reflex and an actual penalty to them because of their hidden stances. Comparatively Lawbringer for example gains nothing defensively over Warden who gains all the good switching and doesn't have Reflex. If it was actually a benefit of slow classes then Lawbringer and the other slow people would have a much better version since their blocking is effectively 3x slower than average groups.

Assassins: 6 frame defense swap with instant correction possible
Average: 8 frame defense swap with instant correction possible and blocks in old direction til new direction finishes
Slow: 10 frame defense swap with no correction possible and delayed swapping if attempting to correct while blocks in old directil til new direction finishes

So while Assassins to Average speed classes seems perfectly balanced, them getting slightly faster swaps but giving up blocks in old direction quickly. Slow to Average or slow to Assassins is in no way balanced with them getting penalties of slower swap speeds, no correction possible and an even bigger penalty if attempting to correct direction. That, if an attempt at balance, is clearly illogical and unbalanced.

edit: CuD basically beat me to it but will leave post since it at least adds a comparison to the discussion. One that to me makes it pretty clear if that is the intended balance mechanic it is pretty off atm.

Zyernes
02-23-2017, 01:08 AM
Another thought is that instead of the slow classes being too slow, it could be a bug that the Average and Assassin group aren't supposed to be able to swap instantly for corrections like they do.

This would slow everyone's defense down and then the slow ones wouldn't be out of place because now everyone is equally as gimped on defense. May even help the game cause at higher skilled fighting defense is king and you can really only attack someone by drawing them out with feints and fakes.

Though part of this is likely me wanting others to be forced to experience the pain instead of assuming it's balanced while playing one of the not gimped defense classes. :P

trikster77
02-23-2017, 01:14 AM
I think its already been stated in this thread but bears repeating. That is of the lag problems with the game so you can take those blocking figures and they will change even more under the pressure of lag between players. This games net code has already been tested and what was shown is that the game has an Inherent lag of around 120ms all things being equal (same PCs same network). That means that all players will have to deal with at least 120ms of lag but other variables will of course bring the value much higher such as users using wifi and bad isp's. This is a huge issue that is the main reason for why many wanting dedicated servers.

JackInZbox
02-23-2017, 10:39 AM
Yea good that someone else is also picking this up as a potential issue, I don't really mind having slightly lower stance switch but a third of multiple other classes gets a bit out of hand, as a nobushi this kind of feels like an issue where i need to parry the first attack from an assassin or else they just start spamming attacks left and right with me waiting in one d irection hoping he will attack that one again because i can't keep up. I may not be the best nobushi but i'm not necessarily having issues with other classes than pks orochis who seem to switch stance + attack faster than i can get the defense up.

kyoj1n
02-23-2017, 11:00 AM
... I just found something very unsettling about the blocking while doing my own frame counting.

So far it's looking like the faster classes I've tested have the ability to /correct/ their stance. By this I mean if your in right stance and you input left stance and then immediately input top or back to right stance the game does 2 different things depending on how late you inputed the second stance switch

First is if it was very early, as in the stance hadn't fully switched to the new direction yet, the new direction comes out at the correct frame as if you had inputed it straight from the first one. So I'm getting 8 frames on the Warden stance switch on a single swap, but if I do a double swap starting right to left to top I still get 8 frames when the white shield appears top.

Second is if I do the second switch a little late the new shield actually comes extremely fast. So with Warden again if I start right and go left to top but I do the buttons slightly slow so the top come right after the shield goes white on the left, it immediately jumps to the new direction in a frame or two.

Both of these are good in that it lets you quickly correct a bad block direction. You can see this in my earlier defense of the level 3 zerker bot with warden I'd sometimes input a side and have to quickly switch it to a different side, which happens near instantly.


Now for the bad part.

The slower switches classes seem to totally lack the first ability to auto correct before the white icon appears on the new side. So unlike the Warden that can go from right to left and then switch to top before the icon even fully blinks white on the left side and have it all take the same exact frames as if they had gone right straight to top, the Lawbringer switching at the same speed delays with their first stance switch from right to left even if you immeidately put in that top direction. The top is then buffered and comes out only after the full long already slow Lawbringer defense swap frames happen and then it swaps to the top. Not only does that happen, but the second buffered swap of the Lawbringer takes LONGER than a normal swap does by 2-3 frames consistently.

So this means for example as a Warden I can go from right to left to top in 8 frames if my white shield never shows left cause of too fast inputs, or I can go from right to left to top in 9 frames total if I was a bit slow and my left side went full white shield for a moment. This is compared to a Lawbringer going right to left in 10 frames and then left to top in 12 frames for a total of 22 frames if you happen to need to adjust your input. That's more than double the time it takes for a Warden to do it.

After going through all the characters with this I've found there seems to be 3 different groups of blocking speed, and then 3 different groups of ability to correct inputed defense stance.

for general single stance swapping:



You've got your fast defense swap chars of Assassins that seem to average in at around 6 frames
You've got your average defense swap chars of all the none slow characters that seem to average in at around 8 frames
You've got your slows chars of Raider, Nobushi, Lawbringer and Shugoki that seem to average in at around 10 frames


For correcting to a different stance when you've started swapping:



You've got the fast correction classes that can correct stances quick enough from 2 angles with 0 frame loss and only 2-3 additional frames if corrected after the first white shield appears. This group also has the ability to never lose their shield on the initial side if you correct back into it, so swapping from right to left and immediately back right just leaves your shield solid on the right side the entire time.
You've got the Conquerer who is by himself in this category as while he has average single swap speed, he can't auto correct with 0 frame loss, it forces him to fully go white in the second stance first and then takes an additional 6 frames to swap to the third stance. Lacks ability to keep shield white on single side if corrected back into it, going back into the same initial stance still takes the 8 frames initial swap and 6 frame corrected swap to block back in your initial direction.
You've got the slow chars of Raider, Nobushi, Lawbringer and Shugoki who actually stance swap SLOWER if you try and correct the stance. So a normal stance right to stance top is around 10 frames, but a stance right to stance left quickly corrected to stance top is 10 frames + 12 frames. Lacks ability to keep shield white on single side if corrected back into it, going back into the same initial stance still takes the 10 frames initial swap and 12 frame corrected swap to block back in your initial direction.


All this explains why there is also such a huge difference between the speeds displayed in the initial video from reddit and the general stance swapping frames people were getting for characters. The numbers certainly weren't 1/3rd of the speed as expected by the number of switches possible in the video. The reason apparently turns out to be there is a different defense correction mechanic involved that is limiting those same classes, so continued direction swaps slow them down while it speeds up other classes.

Sadly this can actually be abused as well. Since the faster correction swapping classes can either swap fast enough through multiple directions without increasing their total frames required in blocking speed and if they quickly swap from one stance they just selected, the next stance is faster. You can improve your overall blocking speed by continuously switching stances and then reacting with the correct stance toward an incoming attack. It'll actually be as fast or up to 4x faster than having just sat in a stance and reacted to the attack direction.

So there you go, new system abuse mechanic apparently. Just rock block stick back and forth between two different directions (top and either left/right is probably easiest) and just react to attack directions and you'll block much faster with anything other than a Raider, Nobushi, Lawbringer, Shugoki and Conquerer.

Though that is an aside to the fact that all this severely cripples the slow swapping classes defenses. Warden blocking PK light spam? You can instantly correct any blocking direction mistakes you make on the fly with max of a 2 frame increase. Lawbringer trying the same thing? Good luck if you went the wrong direction first accidentally or in reaction to a feint, you will actually now block slower in trying to correct the wrong direction. So not only do you block initially slower but if you have any errors it becomes impossible to correct in time to block any fast lights, on the other hand it isn't even a road-bump to everyone else.

This is very concerning when connected to the current zone attack bug/whatever.

Currently sometimes when a character has their guard in a direction other than the direction the zone attack actually comes in the other character will see a flash of the first direction before it switches extremely fast to the actual direction of the zone attack.

Taking what you say that means that slow switching characters are especially punished for this if they react to the first attack direction, then they will not have time to switch to true direction in time.

Zyernes
02-23-2017, 05:10 PM
Indeed. The double indicator issue is already well known and many know how to do it on purpose (me being one, I just don't play a class that can abuse it). It's as simple as pressing light attack just slightly before light+heavy. With correct timing the light attack just /barely/ starts and sends the attack to the enemy but then the game has a bit of leniency and sees you actually hit heavy attack just after and so were probably going for zone instead, so it'll auto correct to the zone attack.

Others can actually do it with stance switching left/right like conq while charging his heavy. Release the heavy while your in one stance but just a frame or two in if the stance changes to the other side the game thinks you meant to put in both at the same time and auto corrects to the opposite side, though you already sent a red indicator to the enemy for the first direction.

All that kinda trickery and more is up there in high level play and further cripples classes that don't have the ability to instantly correct their block direction.

So while the Assassins and Average speed group that can instantly correct can block one direction for the double indicator and instantly swap to the other as the second indicator pops up, the slow swap classes without correct are first forced to take the full 10 frames to swap to the first direction and then are further punished by taking 12 frames to swap to the new one. By then your already hit by the attack since your first initial swap was already some frames in because of human reaction speed, you just no longer have the frames after the first try to block.

It's just super busted and I can't see how people can still say it's intentionally balanced when we've also have yet to see any kind of counter balance mechanic these classes get in compensation if it's intentional. This kind of huge difference in blocking ability /should/ be balanced by some other kind of huge defensive bonus if it was balanced correctly and something like that we'd see by now. On top of that it can actually be abused by just continual rocking of your blocking directions on all but the slow defenders.


Also on the subject of latency, since the simulation of the game does use rollback it can in fact shorten the frames of swings to the defender. This would put slower defense chars even further behind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8UUjaTJSWE#t=00m40s (at about 44 seconds you see a raider heavy just suddenly being active as the rollback catches up).

Zyernes
02-23-2017, 06:01 PM
i think that a slower defense is in general better as a possible 100% impenetrable defense is not a fun thing to have in my opinion. Just look at street fighter, moves come out in 0,1s and stance switching isnīt that slow either, yet people manage to have good fights.

I 100% agree weakening defense in For Honor would be to it's benefit right now, though mostly it's parry. High level play is just turtle fest with trying to draw them out with feints and fakes

Just on the other hand I think it's grossly imbalanced that only 1 group of classes in the game is forced to have this defense that can be up to 22 frames slower in worst case scenarios. So slow the fast ones down to near the slow classes. They can have that switch speed be 1-2 frames faster like they currently have but totally remove their ability to auto correct without any penalty. Light attacks from everyone will suddenly become a lot more dangerous.




This is apart from the whole blocking speed issue so can skip the rest if if your just reading about that----

But if we are talking about what would balance the game right now I think it depends on the direction they wish to take it. It's honestly quite clear this is Ubi's first foray into fighting game like territory as the core mechanics and meta of the game is all over the place. It's rather common for a new company with a fighting game.



Possible ways the game could progress that would be balanced and fun would be to speed up the poke/lights/zone attacks of all the classes that currently don't have something in the 30-40 frame range.

A good example of a character that's basically already balanced like this is the SS-Tier Warden. Top Light and Zone Attack for him basically gives him constant pressure from 2 different directions with moves that are near impossible to react to. This means he can constantly stay offensive in neutral with pokes he doesn't have to worry about being parried as long as he doesn't get a predictable pattern because they are simply too fast. Neither does amazing damage but it's damage the enemy can't really escape from for long and you can win fights entirely off them if the enemy doesn't try to engage on you and just lets you poke them to death.

So if every class had at least 2 pokes in a different direction each, they could mimic this neutral pressure that Warden has and it forces both sides to be more offensive or at the very least be better at the neutral poking than the enemy. This is how a lot of the previous Street Fighter games were balanced (5 is a bit different). You play footsies in neutral to poke and wear people down and keep them at bay to open them up for bigger attacks or if your plain better at footsies then it's to keep them out and kill them with pokes. It keeps it from being a defensive game of nobody attack for fear of counter attacks because you have these fast attacks that just aren't possible to react to.

Some already have this like Orochi Top Light and Zone Attack with relatively fast Side Lights. PK with All Lights and Zone Attack. Etc.

There are just many classes that only have one, which makes that one worthless because people just leave block in that direction. Examples being Kensei and Lawbringer Top Light as well as Raider Dash/Heavy Cancel Top Light. They are decently fast attacks, but because they are the only fast attacks these classes have you just leave blocking top and react to the slow other moves they have, making them totally worthless in neutral.

So all these classes lacking 2 fast attacks in different directions would need to be given another to complete their kits and keep people actually being offensive in neutral instead of turtling.



Another possible way would be the reverse of this and slowing defense down so that the current attacks are fast enough to be threatening from all angles just because defense has been slowed down and will struggle to keep up. We've already partly got this with the current slow defense switching classes struggling against everyone's light attacks. All it needs would be to slow it down just a smidgen more and then slow down everyone else's to be near identical or within a frame or two.

At that point parries would be a bit more rare as you'd have much less time to start one up with the stance swapping speeds and everyone's light attacks can mostly be usable without fear of every single one being parried if it isn't one of the super fast ones. Aggressive play starts to have meaning again simply because defense struggles to keep up.



Currently we just have some from both, which makes the balance bad in many places. We've got Warden with his crazy neutral pokes (and this is ignoring his godly shoulder vortex) who would be perfect in a faster paced game where others caught up to him in poking ability. And on the flip side we have the slow blocking classes who can't keep up with fast light attack direction swaps. They'd be perfect with that bad defense if it was a slower paced game where everyone had a tough time blocking lights.

But currently we just get a mix of both that skews the balance really badly.

DrExtrem
02-23-2017, 07:20 PM
It would be like pouring gas into the fire, that burns away the player base

Making fast attacks even more viable would be the worst idea possible. Most people coming to this forum are having problems with fast attack spam and not being able to defend themselves against it.

The tweaks you proposes, would need a redesign of of most heroes as well.

If your changes would work, it would only be an improvement for the top tier players. The rest of the players would simply take the hero with the highest mobility to attack speed ratio.

LegendaryPLANK
02-23-2017, 07:21 PM
But if you reduced defense universally wouldn't we still have the problem of getting trapped in fast chains? Except it'd happen more often and the fast heroes still have an abusable advantage.

DrExtrem
02-23-2017, 09:14 PM
Only read until "evolve" and I had to think of the game evolve ... and the state it is in.

If the game gets faster, 90% of the players leave.

This is not tekken - accept it.

DrExtrem
02-23-2017, 10:10 PM
like having bad steam reviews on release.. somehow similar to for Honor?

At least the devs interacted with the community ;)

Talking to your player base is not the worst idea ;)

We have three major problems right now:
- attack speed of certain characters is too high and those characters are dominating right now
- guard breaks are too strong, except for a very small portion of the players, who can counter it (it is too fast as well)
- defense is too powerful, if you (the defending) hit the high tiers of skill

The first problem effects all players, with average and not that great reflexes and players, who get stuck in a light strike vortex. It is very difficult for the majority if the players, to activity block a light strike vortex, because the hit recovery times are quite long and the guard dies only cone up in tine, if you know where the second strike comes from, before the indicators flash. The animation's before the indicator flashes, are often very difficult to read, not accurate or too subtle, to be read. Partying and dashi g away, died not work, because the time windows overlap. You are still recovering, while you could parry or dash out safely.
In short, if the first hit hits you, the second will hit you as well. And so on.

Guard break is going to be fixed, what looks like a buff for defensive play at first but let's be honest. Players, who can block and counter attack when perfectly, are the ones who already have mastered the counter guard break. They are not really effected.

Defensive play being too strong, is a problem for a minority of the players. Let's be honest, most of us are scrubs, older ir simply dont have enough time anymore, to play several hours a day. By making the game (even) faster, something good players will adapt too with ease, you alienate a big chunk of the after work players, the casuals and all sorts of older players, who want to play with swords and axes.
Like it or not - a new IP of this magnitude and game style can not survive with only 10k players. Every md mire pung, makes the game harder to play online - especially, if you make it even faster.
You need a broad player base, to keep the game alive for everybody.

I don't have a prescription to give you a cure against defensive play but making it faster is not the solution.

Zyernes
02-23-2017, 11:28 PM
I didn't say to make the game faster. No one is saying to make the already fast attacks anymore effective, or at least I'm not.

What I AM saying is that in a game where these fast attacks exist and actually do their job as light attacks in being decently hard to block and really hard to parry, ONE way to help balance could be to be spread out to the classes that don't have them as options as well.

So that PK will still have attacks just as fast as it currently does, but now that raider that's he's poking can actually get aggressive back with some lights of his own if he manages to block or find an opening to start throwing them out.

My two earlier suggestions were just ways to make this last example happen. Either the Raider's fast attacks need to be made a bit faster (not PK fast but fast enough to be at that edge of kinda hard to block but really hard to parry) or the PK's defenses need to be slowed down to the point where the slow Raider's light attacks as they currently are become hard to block (the Raider's defense is already this slow while the PK's isn't).

None of these ways sped up the PK's attacks in any way.

But right now the game has a huge turtling problem and people DO get better at video games. As more and more progress out of the swing wildly and barely able to block stage of being a new player, they'll be forced to become less and less aggressive as they run into people playing defensively. Ryaneko's picture is a rather good example of this.

No one comes to For Honor expecting it to be a game about doing absolutely nothing, yet that's currently the natural way to be better at the game in it's current state. The only characters that can break this mold are the ones with attacks too fast to be reacted to like Warden, PK, Orochi, etc and are the ones people considered OP because of it. Yet if those same attacks are all slowed down and everyone can actually react to EVERYTHING, then that means no one will do anything as being punished by a parry is far more dangerous than any damage you might get out of a move they can parry easily. It's the same reason why the slower classes don't go around spamming hard hitting heavies.

So the end result of my suggestions is giving the classes that lack safe ways to press buttons in neutral a way to actually do that. This could be speeding some moves up, slowing defenses down (though regardless slow defense characters need theirs fixed), removing parry>GB so people can't be punished as harshly for throwing buttons out. Whatever. That's my main suggestion and those were just two ways of being able to do it.

For whatever reasons people latched onto a /part/ of one of my suggestions that happened to mention speed (it was speeding up the slow classes, not the fast ones) and they've kind of ran with that of me suggesting I want the game speed increased more.

DrExtrem
02-24-2017, 12:06 AM
Something needs to be done in both directions - I think we all agree on this.

Handing out fast attacks is going to alienate players. Yes, players get better but if the game gets too hard and people start to feel either cheated by mechanics or the inability to get out of a light spam, they go away.
If the game gets decided by whos fast attack hits first, people will not feel the need to play anymore. The next meta would be decided, by wich hero can have the first strike, best follow ups and mobility, if an attack fails.

Its frustrating to lose to a mechanic. And frustration leads to resignation or adaptation to the new meta. In this case, the new hero, who kills best.

Cryokill2000
02-24-2017, 12:27 AM
https://redd.it/5utcwp - x-post u/Kyoj1n ; r/forhonor

For me it's probably the biggest issue in terms of balance, one I've spotted throughout all the tests and that I can't believe hasn't been addressed yet nor is being discussed by the community. Even if you don't play all the classes you'd without a doubt have noticed it playing against them.

One thing is to be able to actively block, another is to be impossible to actively block and have such a disadvantage in some obviously broken match ups, favoring spam over skill and input timing.

Tweaks are desperately needed, duel is pretty much broken less than a week in, matchmaking doesn't help, connection only adds to the problem, but basic mechanics are what need priority fixing. C'mon Ubi.

Wow how blind Ubisoft must have been when doing this! Who would ever imagine anything like this in a fighting game? Obviously Zangief must do everything just as fast as Chun Li, how can the game possibly be fun or balanced otherwise?!

Clearly Orochi's very slow block is completely not justified despite her insane attack speed and ludicrous range, and psh what can a Crusader possibly ever do to win a fight he's clearly underpowered, I mean between his 2-3 shot kills and nearly invincible armor, clearly he needs turbo speed to be competitive!

Zyernes
02-24-2017, 01:26 AM
I agree something needs to be done about the balance, if it can be fixed without improving speed, it'd be nice. But considering so far they've already started to speed up the slow classes like Valk, I don't think they are going to go the way of slowing stuff down anymore. Which would mean speeding up the slow classes is more likely.

That said I can never get behind the people that claim blocking lights and GB cancel is too fast (unless they are playing one of the currently slow blocking/no auto correction classes and hence I feel is bugged). I've got a family and job eating up most of my time and my fast reaction years are well past me, yet I can block most light attacks (PK's give me the most trouble but even then it's like 80% blocked) and I can 100% cancel GB unless I've been feinted and my attention is pulled toward blocking/feinting myself.

In fact it's actually physically impossibly for you to not be able to cancel a GB unless your somehow disabled or over 60 years old (I say over 60 because a 60 year old should still be able to do it by the frames and average reaction times at that age). Unless your either of those, your lack of wanting to improve is all that's to blame and I can never get behind people like that complaining and wanting change because of it.

All it would take would be an hour or two of sitting in a custom game with a level 3 bot and no damage practicing blocking and canceling GB to build up muscle memory, since again unless your over 60 or disabled it's possible for you to do it. All that's keeping you from it is the muscle memory and ability to stay calm in the situation which both can be easily remedied.

That one to two hours of dedication will save you from hours of headaches later and make you a better player.


Anyway all this balance talk aside, none of this address the current issue of the slow blocking classes being crippled by not being able to adjust their block speeds like everyone else. This imbalance putting them up to 22 frames behind most other character blocking speed. That's only 8 frames away from being a full PK light's worth of frames.

Now if you play Lawbringer, Raider, Nobushi or Crusader and you feel light attack spam is broken, then it basically is, or more that your defense is busted and so you have a right to complain. Just do it about the right thing, which is fixing the block correction capability of these classes and not of the actual fast attacks.

Aidames
02-24-2017, 07:12 PM
While I disagree with the idea of blocking times being exactly the same on all Heroes, I do agree that the huge difference in stance switching (I'm assuming the numbers are stances/second) needs to be lessened. There is no reason for most of the characters to be in the 12-15 range while a couple others have 4. Make it 9-10, much improved, problem solved, money earned.

CuD_
02-24-2017, 07:34 PM
While I disagree with the idea of blocking times being exactly the same on all Heroes, I do agree that the huge difference in stance switching (I'm assuming the numbers are stances/second) needs to be lessened. There is no reason for most of the characters to be in the 12-15 range while a couple others have 4. Make it 9-10, much improved, problem solved, money earned.
I would want to test it before I say this would solve my issues, but this seems to be a good direction to go... as I am also not sure they should be equal, this might unbalance the game in favor of these chars, who can hit quite hard, or have tricky kits... hard to say.

But I would love to have an "old man" buffer in there, currently it is impossible for me to be nearly frame perfect, 1 being I am getting old lol, and 2 inherent latency in the game.

CuD_
03-04-2017, 01:44 AM
Disappointed that there has been no comment about this, and nothing in the recent patch.

It would be good to know that this has been seen, and is at least being looked into..

I haven't played in a while, found a new game to keep me occupied while this one gets itself figured out... Although I am likely to jump on a bit this weekend and just play some chars which are not dealing with this slow block nonsense.

Ubi needs to respond and just say "yes we did this on purpose and we are looking into whether the numbers are right" or "Oops, we overtuned it a tad, yes we expected them to be slower, but not to the point where they cannot defend against certain matchups"

I mean, anything...

Arne_Knut
03-08-2017, 02:23 AM
Extheleon has a Lawbringer video where he shows that the block speed of the Lawbringer is the same as that of the Warden, despite the animation and indicator. He blocks Peacekeeper attack after attack with the Lawbringer. If you go to 4:02 in this video and slow the speed down to 0.25, you can see the Lawbringer actually block a Peacekeeper light attack, BEFORE the guard indicator even changes. He blocks the overhead light while the guard indicator is still black overhead, and then the indicator catches up later. The indicator being much slower doesn't actually affect the LB's block, as the block hits without the indicator in place, allowing the LB to block as quickly as the Warden.

What they're doing with block, I'm not sure, but this video is visual evidence that at least for the Lawbringer, the animation and indicator =/= effective block speed, as he clearly blocks PK light attacks before the guard indicator even changes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmFI_67czp8

Sithalorian
03-08-2017, 03:45 AM
I would like to point out, that this is 100 percent accurate. During the Technical Test and alpha every hero's block speed was the same it felt like, and while blocking the very spammy attacks from say, berserker and orochi was difficult, it was not impossible even as a Raider. But now it is completely impossible for a Raider to, no matter how quick the player is and how good they are, to stop the orochi's spam, especially after the first hit, because it's simply not possible to switch guards fast enough especially because of the interrupt caused by it you cannot break the combo once it starts. and since you cant switch guard direction fast enough, you cant parry it.

Felis_Menari
03-08-2017, 05:24 AM
Extheleon has a Lawbringer video where he shows that the block speed of the Lawbringer is the same as that of the Warden, despite the animation and indicator. He blocks Peacekeeper attack after attack with the Lawbringer. If you go to 4:02 in this video and slow the speed down to 0.25, you can see the Lawbringer actually block a Peacekeeper light attack, BEFORE the guard indicator even changes. He blocks the overhead light while the guard indicator is still black overhead, and then the indicator catches up later. The indicator being much slower doesn't actually affect the LB's block, as the block hits without the indicator in place, allowing the LB to block as quickly as the Warden.

What they're doing with block, I'm not sure, but this video is visual evidence that at least for the Lawbringer, the animation and indicator =/= effective block speed, as he clearly blocks PK light attacks before the guard indicator even changes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmFI_67czp8

The video didn't show Extheleon blocking the second PK's light after getting hit by the first, so no one can really say that this test is covers all of the LB's blocking issues.