View Full Version : I think we need to talk about the state of Bashes...

02-18-2017, 12:39 PM
Before anyone says "git gud", or anything else like that that's currently driving people away from the community, know that I do know they can be somewhat counterable. I get it. That does NOT mean that bashes in their current state are balanced or reasonable to play against.

There are a few core problems with bashes. Primarily that they can, in essence, be infinitely chained and are almost impossible to punish. All the bashes in the game are dodgable, but there is almost no recovery time on them, so a player is up and able to attack (rendering GBs useless as a punish) or block incoming attacks faster than the dodging player can land even a light attack. In their current state, bashes are a no risk/high reward tactic, with the potential to lock down an opponent and, in the cases of some classes, allow multiple free and unblockable hits at low stamina cost for very significant damage.

Here, I refer to Warden, Conqueror, Warlord and Nobushi. Lawbringer's bash is generally far weaker, with a high stamina cost and little payoff for landing it, as he gets no free hits from it and it cannot be chained on anything other than a Heavy attack, allowing an opponent ample time to counter your strike or GB, and I simply don't have enough experience against or with the Valkyrie to comment.

Warden mains, I'm sorry, but this guy is broken and it's almost entirely because of this. He can cancel his into a GB at any time, offers two free light attacks on hit, and can be chained essentially infinitely until your opponenty is able to dodge out the way. IF your opponent tries to dodge the bash and you cancel it, the GB is free - it cannot be countered. This means, to play against this tactic, your opponent must premptively guess which of the two you're going to do, as the counter to each cancels out the counter to the other. This is the most broken of them all, IMO. The cancel to GB needs to go, for absolutely sure, to make the game reactive and not based on guesswork, and I believe Wardens should have to choose between landing the second free Light or going into another bash, to at least alleviate some of the damage potential here. Two free hits and then continuous bashing means a free win for any Warden who can back their opponent into a corner or wall. As with all bashes, recovery time has to be added to a missed bash - opponents MUST be able to punish players who rely on bashes and miss their impact.

The class needs more versatility given to it anyway, I think, but that doesn't change the fact that this one chain is insane. Bash to Light can be infinitely chained, with a huge catch range even if your opponent dodges away or to the side and literally no punishment. Here's some video evidence of what I mean, though it's not my video. (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121070298) The idea that a single attack chain is completely unpunishable means Conquerors can spam this chain without fear, knowing their guard will be back up in time to attack against a GB for another free hit or simply to counter any incoming attack and stagger their opponent. The enormous stamina drain on this move is another fairly stupid design choice, meaning an opponent can be drained entirely of stamina during this combo without actually doing anything.

Very similar issues to the Conq, though he's able to do far more damage with his chain and the headbutt tracks better, I think, than the Conqueror's shield bash. Again, an infinite stunlock chain that cannot be punished is not good design, and players - and the kit in general - relies far too heavily on this move. As with all bashes, recovery time has to be added to a missed bash - opponents MUST be able to punish players who rely on bashes and miss their impact.

Until my last duel - the one which prompted this topic - I didn't even realise the kick could be chained infinitely. It can. The incoming attack spam from a Nobushi already applies enormous pressure to an opponent, and the ability to land one kick and then keep landing hits and kicks until their stamina is gone shares all the problems of the other bash chains. It's hard to counter, puts undue pressure on your opponent with very little skill requirement and drains far too much stamina. I will say that I think this is the least problematic of the bashes, as it's far slower to come out than the others and I don't believe it gets any "free" hits. I'm on the fence as to whether this one actually needs changed at this point, but I include it for the sake of comparison and discussion - it's still an insanely strong move compared to characters kits which don't have a bash option.

02-18-2017, 01:49 PM
Warden's one seems to have an obscene amount of tracking too, so many times I'm sure I've dodged it and he seems to curve into me.

02-18-2017, 08:42 PM
I like how you left out Valkyrie because she is so bad right now. jk
I agree with bashes being in an OP state