PDA

View Full Version : How to fix the current issue with dodge



T_Djinn_T
02-18-2017, 05:41 AM
Anyone who says changing dodge is a bad idea does nothing but spam dodge. That much is a fact.
If dodge wasn't as overly powerful as it is right now. It wouldn't be used more times per minute than people block attacks per minute.

Suggested changes:
Forward dodge - Consumes 5% stamina if not used in a combo - Excluding successful deflects
Side dodge - Consumes 25% total stamina - Excluding successful deflects
Back dodge - Consumes 50% total stamina
Exhausted - Cannot dodge

What this does is the people who do nothing but dodge. All game long. Will no longer be able to do this.
Expect response: WAAAAAAAH ASSASSIN NERF WAAAAAAAAAAH
Intelligent response: This doesn't only effect Assassins it effects everyone but least of all assassins. Considering if you use dodge to deflect you're not consuming stamina.

Why should this be changed?

In 191 hours of play during beta. And 70 hours on live. The one thing I've seen from every single class is nothing but dodge spamming. Unless you're caught into a GB during your dodge you're 100% safe. And if you can attack during your dodge you're even safe from guard breaks.

While this doesn't mean you will win every fight. This does mean your matches will last 5 Mins per round in duel just from someone doing this.

How this effects each experience level

New Player (under 5 hours played): Unaffected will learn to adapt to the game
Semi-new player(Under 30 hours played): Will probably cry about something being OP. You can generally ignore this people
Experienced players(Over 30 hours played): Will want this change as well - Will adapt to new changes made in the game.
Veteran players(200+ hours): Don't use dodge. They parry or deflect. This will have very little effect and will be adapted to very quickly.

How this effects each skill level

Easy: Will cry and make themselves heard that this shouldn't happen (These are the people who lose almost every game spamming dodge. But succeed in making the match take 10+ minutes)
Medium: Won't like it however won't care
Hard: Will welcome the change
Realistic: If you can't infinitely sprint in real life WTF Devs?


TL;DR
All classes can abuse the current dodge mechanic. Proposing a change that nerfs dodge for all classes LEAST for assassins. No matter how much I personally hate assassins they are a class that shouldn't be punished for doing something successfully. This includes dodging.


Alternate suggestions from thread.

Originally Posted by N7Heimdall
While I agree that dodges can be really annoying to deal with, I don't think they should be nerfed to that extent. Maybe a penalty for consecutive dodges.

For example: First dodge is free, but each dodge after that in immediate or quick (depending on how a change like this will actually alter combat) succession will cost more and more stamina up to a certain amount.

Mathonn
02-18-2017, 05:53 AM
I don't find people dodging to be the problem with dodge, avoiding attacks as a combat technique should be coming in ahead of flat blocking with the types of weapons involved.

The problem with dodge that I see is that far too often the player dodges and either dodges through an oncoming attack or doesn't make it out of range of the attack and you watch as your blade goes clean through the guy dodging without connecting. It's too effective because you can be stupid enough to dodge wrong and get away with it because you apparently dematerialize.

T_Djinn_T
02-18-2017, 06:04 AM
I don't find people dodging to be the problem with dodge, avoiding attacks as a combat technique should be coming in ahead of flat blocking with the types of weapons involved.

The problem with dodge that I see is that far too often the player dodges and either dodges through an oncoming attack or doesn't make it out of range of the attack and you watch as your blade goes clean through the guy dodging without connecting. It's too effective because you can be stupid enough to dodge wrong and get away with it because you apparently dematerialize.

And I get that part of the issue. But the way dodge works + P2P means no matter what. That will continue to be the case.
At least by making a stamina cost they will be punish for it. And will not be able to follow up with as many attacks. And in the event you're out of stamina. You shouldn't be able to dodge anyways. You should have to block at that point.

IMHO Parry should consume stamina as well to make managing your stamina important. If you run out of stamina an unblockable should be a free hit. No stamina = don't have the strength required to move out of the way or parry the attack.

VoadorHolandes
02-18-2017, 06:17 AM
Frankly, i think what's annoying about it is that in assassin classes there is an attack that follows it. It is a invicibility state that allows a very good retaliation with no downsides. I mean, it's so effective and safe no one evers use deflection, ever (why it's even in the game?!). It's very easy to spam, very easy to do. It spends no stamina. It kinda feels it doesn't fit in the game.

Snowju
02-18-2017, 06:39 AM
One of my biggest issues is combos not actually being combos BECAUSE of dodge. You start a light attack combo, get the first hit, and then your opponent dodges before the second hit lands. So the fight turns into a single light attack poke then turtle up.

The reason I think this is poor is because the directional combat system was sold as a big feature of this game. Dodge completely trumps this mechanic.

I'd suggest dodge only be allowed when not currently being in a combo. It can be used while the opponent is turtling, it can be used during the opponents opening strike, but once a strike lands, the player should have to use the block, dodge block, parry, or deflect options currently available. These all make use of the directional-combat mechanic that the devs have given us.

T_Djinn_T
02-18-2017, 06:46 AM
One of my biggest issues is combos not actually being combos BECAUSE of dodge. You start a light attack combo, get the first hit, and then your opponent dodges before the second hit lands. So the fight turns into a single light attack poke then turtle up.

The reason I think this is poor is because the directional combat system was sold as a big feature of this game. Dodge completely trumps this mechanic.

I'd suggest dodge only be allowed when not currently being in a combo. It can be used while the opponent is turtling, it can be used during the opponents opening strike, but once a strike lands, the player should have to use the block, dodge block, parry, or deflect options currently available. These all make use of the directional-combat mechanic that the devs have given us.

What your proposing is Deminishing returns or a cooldown system. Where dodge cannot be used once considered "in combat" but their "In combat" system lasts for 15 seconds AND you standing still.

So unless they rewrite that whole system that wouldn't happen. I do like where you're going with it. But unfortunately it won't happen. They won't spend the resources to do it. They probably won't even spend the resources to read this post.

E-A-X
02-18-2017, 06:52 AM
well its not just dodging, alot of things in this game are completly "broken". Such as warden playing roll the dice game with shoulderbash cancel into guardbreak, guardbreak beeing a broken in general mechanic at the moment and then on top of that those classes (PK, Orochi i.e.) that have the option to parry, while they already can dodge + counterattack.

I hear your post and honestly the more defensive, dodgespamming enemys play, the worse this game gets. Just because of that and parry beeing an noob mechanic in this game, classes like raider etc. are useless.I feel like everything you do in this game, should drain your stamina, to prevent you from spamming/abusing it - while having no stamina should make you unable to dodge attacks and unable to parry.
Like something has to be done in general about this massive defensive play fest, the one playing most defensive usually wins the game, if both play defensive the time runs out.
Non of that is a great experience and it makes the most versatile classes or those who can spam fastest the best ones (Warden, Warlord i.e.).

Atm this game is completly unrewarding for attacking players in a 1on1 scenario with alot of classes, while theres just exactly 2 that get rewards for spam + only 3 possible "counter" champs against those 2 and the lack of balance doesnt really help growing it. I just find myself all day long in dominion cuz im tired of playing the shoulderbash into guardbreak spam warden against all classes that have no dodge + counterattack/lightattack.
Like thats what is the broken thing about it, if you dodge u cant counter guardbreak, unless you have an ability that gives you a lightattack while dodging, so either you take a shoulderbash + free hit or you take the shoulderbash feint into guardbreak + a massive hit.

T_Djinn_T
02-18-2017, 07:28 AM
well its not just dodging, alot of things in this game are completly "broken". Such as warden playing roll the dice game with shoulderbash cancel into guardbreak, guardbreak beeing a broken in general mechanic at the moment and then on top of that those classes (PK, Orochi i.e.) that have the option to parry, while they already can dodge + counterattack.

I hear your post and honestly the more defensive, dodgespamming enemys play, the worse this game gets. Just because of that and parry beeing an noob mechanic in this game, classes like raider etc. are useless.I feel like everything you do in this game, should drain your stamina, to prevent you from spamming/abusing it - while having no stamina should make you unable to dodge attacks and unable to parry.
Like something has to be done in general about this massive defensive play fest, the one playing most defensive usually wins the game, if both play defensive the time runs out.
Non of that is a great experience and it makes the most versatile classes or those who can spam fastest the best ones (Warden, Warlord i.e.).

Atm this game is completly unrewarding for attacking players in a 1on1 scenario with alot of classes, while theres just exactly 2 that get rewards for spam + only 3 possible "counter" champs against those 2 and the lack of balance doesnt really help growing it. I just find myself all day long in dominion cuz im tired of playing the shoulderbash into guardbreak spam warden against all classes that have no dodge + counterattack/lightattack.
Like thats what is the broken thing about it, if you dodge u cant counter guardbreak, unless you have an ability that gives you a lightattack while dodging, so either you take a shoulderbash + free hit or you take the shoulderbash feint into guardbreak + a massive hit.

If you made a list for the classes as far as "Value" is concerned.
It would look a little something like this (Scale 1-10)

Warden
Block: 7
Parry: 9
Dodge: 7
Attack: 3

Conq
Block: 10
Parry: 10
Dodge: 7
Attack: 0

Law
Block: 7
Parry: 5
Dodge: 7
Attack: 0

PK
Block: 0
Parry: 0
Dodge: 10
Attack: 10

Raider
Block: 7
Parry: 9
Dodge: 7
Attack: 5

Warlord
Block: 10
Parry: 10
Dodge: 7
Attack: 1

Berserker
Block: 0
Parry: 0
Dodge: 10
Attack: 1

Valk
Block: 7
Parry: 5
Dodge: 7
Attack: 3

Kensei
Block: 7
Parry: 9
Dodge: 7
Attack: 3

Shoguki
Block: 2
Parry: 10
Dodge: 2
Attack: 7

Orochi
Block: 0
Parry: 5
Dodge: 10
Attack: 10

Nobushi
Block: 7
Parry: 5
Dodge: 7
Attack: 5

So keep in mind I didn't bother adding in Feint or Guard break to this list.

This list is a simple value list based on what the hero can do after a block/parry/dodge or simply just how safe they are to attack.

Now if you were to program a bot that only played for value. On the three assassins it would do nothing but spam dodge and attack. Because that is where all of your value comes from.
If you made one for all other classes it would almost NEVER attack. But every class it would dodge or parry

Snowju
02-18-2017, 08:02 AM
So unless they rewrite that whole system that wouldn't happen. I do like where you're going with it. But unfortunately it won't happen. They won't spend the resources to do it. They probably won't even spend the resources to read this post.


Not in combat, just in a juggle.

light light heavy or light heavy etc

Once that juggle is either finished, input is wrong, or a defensive maneuver ends it, then dodging can be used again.

CryFree410
02-18-2017, 08:28 AM
If you people can't block a dodge attack your bad plain and simple....

IronMarla
02-18-2017, 08:32 AM
If you think that our side-dodges/front-dodges actually make us invincible, you are gravely mistaken.

The only times you get invincibility out of this is when you trigger a Deflect state, which has a narrow window of opportunity (much like Parry) and just isn't available 100% of the time. Even being very good, you're not going to hit every Deflect.

The proper side-dodge strikes (from PK, Orochi, and Zerk in particular) can definitely take damage as they move to the side. The hit-tracking is not great (IE an in-progress attack won't turn to catch them as well as you may hope), but I've definitely taken a hit from a spear a solid ninety degrees to the side of the thrust. There -really- aren't invuln frames in play here; it's much more like hitbox tracking just isn't quite matching up from client to server.

GamerBucketXbox
02-18-2017, 08:42 AM
Idk. Its really easy to fient, make assassin attenpt dodge attack, then parry them. Works all the time for me. Its really easy to parry that dodge attack. Has a huge window

Delectable_Sin
02-18-2017, 08:45 AM
Go play some Hello Kitty or something dude. Dodge is fine. You can't dodge GB and you can't dodge light attacks from inside the pocket. Hell, you can't dodge power attacks from inside the pocket unless you dodge perfectly in the direction of the attack. Stop spamming power attacks from the outside, feint, push your way inside, and they'll be out of stamina at that point anyway. Assassins lose stamina insanely fast from having their power attacks blocked anyway, so all it takes is decent defense to completely drain them and control the fight.

Also, there are times you just can't move as an assassin, i.e. right after you miss an attack.

The most powerful top tier character right now is nearly universally regarded as the Warden, and it's mostly because of his ability to control positioning.

Fact: people who complain about dodge are spammers with no defense.

Davoodoo92
02-18-2017, 08:57 AM
If you think that our side-dodges/front-dodges actually make us invincible, you are gravely mistaken.

The only times you get invincibility out of this is when you trigger a Deflect state, which has a narrow window of opportunity (much like Parry) and just isn't available 100% of the time. Even being very good, you're not going to hit every Deflect.



Oh excuse me then, apparently you play different game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op8vbzBYbx4

Cause this is how it looks to me. Dodge flying straight through attack.

KigreTheViking
02-18-2017, 01:40 PM
Anyone who says changing dodge is a bad idea does nothing but spam dodge. That much is a fact.
If dodge wasn't as overly powerful as it is right now. It wouldn't be used more times per minute than people block attacks per minute.

Suggested changes:
Forward dodge - Consumes 5% stamina if not used in a combo - Excluding successful deflects
Side dodge - Consumes 25% total stamina - Excluding successful deflects
Back dodge - Consumes 50% total stamina

What this does is the people who do nothing but dodge. All game long. Will no longer be able to do this.
Expect response: WAAAAAAAH ASSASSIN NERF WAAAAAAAAAAH
Intelligent response: This doesn't only effect Assassins it effects every but least of all assassins. Considering if you use dodge to deflect you're not consuming stamina.

Why should this be changed?

In 191 hours of play during beta. And 30 hours on live. The one thing I've seen from every single class is nothing but dodge spamming. Unless you're caught into a GB during your dodge you're 100% safe. And if you can attack during your dodge you're even safe from guard breaks.

While this doesn't mean you will win every fight. This does mean your matches will last 5 Mins per round in duel just from someone doing this.

How this effects each experience level

New Player (under 5 hours played): Unaffected will learn to adapt to the game
Semi-new player(Under 30 hours played): Will probably cry about something being OP. You can generally ignore this people
Experienced players(Over 30 hours played): Will want this change as well - Will adapt to new changes made in the game.
Veteran players(200+ hours): Don't use dodge. They parry or deflect. This will have very little effect and will be adapted to very quickly.

How this effects each skill level

Easy: Will cry and make themselves heard that this shouldn't happen (These are the people who lose almost every game spamming dodge. But succeed in making the match take 10+ minutes)
Medium: Won't like it however won't care
Hard: Will welcome the change
Realistic: If you can't infinitely sprint in real life WTF Devs?


TL;DR
All classes can abuse the current dodge mechanic. Proposing a change that nerfs dodge for all classes LEAST for assassins. No matter how much I personally hate assassins they are a class that shouldn't be punished for doing something successfully. This includes dodging.



HAHAHA! 50% stamina loss on backdodge!!! LMAO! So you basically want a fight where no one backs off. Just sidestepping and attacking. 50%???

Laughable and moronic.

Te_Wheke
02-18-2017, 01:55 PM
Even 25% on a sideways dodges would make bashes insanely powerful.

PinkFingerr
02-18-2017, 02:13 PM
so selfish for this owner's topic and so funny hahahaha

LucGrand
02-18-2017, 02:43 PM
Yea they need to fix the side step. Anyone with a side step that can be followed up with a light attack is invincible. (Berserker, Kensai, Orochi, Peacekeeper) I remember playing a dozen 1v1's and as I would approach my enemies as those characters before I would even attack they would initiate the side step because at this point the exploit is very well known and yes it is broken. Take fighting an enemy on a bridge where there's literally no where an enemy can physically go to avoid an attack and with a horizontal sweep my weapon literally fazed through the enemy 4 times in a row in several matches whether it be on bridges or in narrow hallways. I'm all for perfectly timed dodges in a manner similar to parry because I love these types of gameplay mechanic as I'm really good at them or dodging vertical strikes that makes sense but the side step light attack follow up in its current state is an automatic win 9 out of 10 times. At the very least the side step has no business dodging horizontal sweeps. I hope people have the decency to admit that.

T_Djinn_T
02-18-2017, 04:36 PM
If you think that our side-dodges/front-dodges actually make us invincible, you are gravely mistaken.

Never said it did. Just that it makes you completely safe.


Idk. Its really easy to fient, make assassin attenpt dodge attack, then parry them. Works all the time for me. Its really easy to parry that dodge attack. Has a huge window

It is. Which is why I said you don't win every match. It just makes the games take substantially longer


Go play some Hello Kitty or something dude. Dodge is fine. You can't dodge GB and you can't dodge light attacks from inside the pocket. Hell, you can't dodge power attacks from inside the pocket unless you dodge perfectly in the direction of the attack. Stop spamming power attacks from the outside, feint, push your way inside, and they'll be out of stamina at that point anyway. Assassins lose stamina insanely fast from having their power attacks blocked anyway, so all it takes is decent defense to completely drain them and control the fight.

Also, there are times you just can't move as an assassin, i.e. right after you miss an attack.

The most powerful top tier character right now is nearly universally regarded as the Warden, and it's mostly because of his ability to control positioning.

Fact: people who complain about dodge are spammers with no defense.

Please go read the very first sentence in my post. It perfectly applies to you.


HAHAHA! 50% stamina loss on backdodge!!! LMAO! So you basically want a fight where no one backs off. Just sidestepping and attacking. 50%???

Laughable and moronic.

Please go read the very first sentence in my post. It perfectly applies to you.


Even 25% on a sideways dodges would make bashes insanely powerful.

How do you figure?

Te_Wheke
02-18-2017, 10:22 PM
How do you figure?

a) Because if you can't dodge a bash due to being out of stamina, your opponent can easily bash you again and keep you locked down with no way of escaping.

b) There's no real penalty for missed bashes as you can block any follow-up attack after they dodge your bash, if it cost 25% every time you dodged a bash players could just easily spam bash until their opponent runs out of stamina (the guy losing 25% per dodge will run out faster than the guy spamming bash), then bash lock them as above.

Dodge is the counter to bash so nerfing it will gives bashing a massive buff.

AgentCelt
02-18-2017, 10:39 PM
But how would I win every fight with my Berserker if they change the dodge? Do you not understand how overpowered my Berserker? I NEED MY GOD DAMN DODGE

T_Djinn_T
02-20-2017, 11:59 PM
a) Because if you can't dodge a bash due to being out of stamina, your opponent can easily bash you again and keep you locked down with no way of escaping.

b) There's no real penalty for missed bashes as you can block any follow-up attack after they dodge your bash, if it cost 25% every time you dodged a bash players could just easily spam bash until their opponent runs out of stamina (the guy losing 25% per dodge will run out faster than the guy spamming bash), then bash lock them as above.

Dodge is the counter to bash so nerfing it will gives bashing a massive buff.

What is bash? I know what Guard Break is. I know what Throwing is. I know what light attack and heavy attack are. I know what Vortex is.
What is bash? Are you talking like a Vortex? Headbutt? Shield Bash? Shoulder charge? All of these can be punished with 1 dodge and you'll refill stamina before it ever starts again.

Bob__Gnarly
02-21-2017, 12:57 AM
Dodging is not a problem in the slightest. If someone is dodging a lot, they'll be easy to catch with GB and get punished. What's the issue exactly?

Sugaroverdose
02-21-2017, 01:05 AM
Anyone who says changing dodge is a bad idea does nothing but spam dodge. That much is a fact.
If dodge wasn't as overly powerful as it is right now. It wouldn't be used more times per minute than people block attacks per minute.

Suggested changes:
Forward dodge - Consumes 5% stamina if not used in a combo - Excluding successful deflects
Side dodge - Consumes 25% total stamina - Excluding successful deflects
Back dodge - Consumes 50% total stamina

What this does is the people who do nothing but dodge. All game long. Will no longer be able to do this.
Expect response: WAAAAAAAH ASSASSIN NERF WAAAAAAAAAAH
Intelligent response: This doesn't only effect Assassins it effects every but least of all assassins. Considering if you use dodge to deflect you're not consuming stamina.

Why should this be changed?

In 191 hours of play during beta. And 30 hours on live. The one thing I've seen from every single class is nothing but dodge spamming. Unless you're caught into a GB during your dodge you're 100% safe. And if you can attack during your dodge you're even safe from guard breaks.

While this doesn't mean you will win every fight. This does mean your matches will last 5 Mins per round in duel just from someone doing this.

How this effects each experience level

New Player (under 5 hours played): Unaffected will learn to adapt to the game
Semi-new player(Under 30 hours played): Will probably cry about something being OP. You can generally ignore this people
Experienced players(Over 30 hours played): Will want this change as well - Will adapt to new changes made in the game.
Veteran players(200+ hours): Don't use dodge. They parry or deflect. This will have very little effect and will be adapted to very quickly.

How this effects each skill level

Easy: Will cry and make themselves heard that this shouldn't happen (These are the people who lose almost every game spamming dodge. But succeed in making the match take 10+ minutes)
Medium: Won't like it however won't care
Hard: Will welcome the change
Realistic: If you can't infinitely sprint in real life WTF Devs?


TL;DR
All classes can abuse the current dodge mechanic. Proposing a change that nerfs dodge for all classes LEAST for assassins. No matter how much I personally hate assassins they are a class that shouldn't be punished for doing something successfully. This includes dodging.
Yeah, nerf dodge to make permablocking classes OP, cause they don't know that assassins must refresh stance with every attack and actually will be 20x harder to play than any other class if dodge will be touched somehow.

xxgregotaurusxx
02-21-2017, 01:40 AM
agreed that dodge is too much of a cure-all defensive option,especially those with sideways attacks that invalidate the best counter, guardbreak, they simply need to give us an alternative counter to it, i would suggest that any sideways heavy attack follow/counter sidestepping (not to include deflections) I would also however lengthen the window that a vertical can be side stepped,slow verticals tracking you seems silly to me esp kensais vertical unblockable which im sure can turn after the start up (maybe latency,but who knows)

DBLxxShotz
02-21-2017, 01:48 AM
Im not very good at this game but dodges arent really an issue. A feint here and there .well timed gbs and controlling distance helps to deal with dodging.

Altair_Snake
02-21-2017, 03:50 AM
Have you considered the absurd snowballing an exhausted character would suffer, if dodge cost stamina?

Salt_Fist
02-21-2017, 03:55 AM
Nah fam. Everyone can dodge. Get good. It's not even been a week the game hasn't even had time to develop a meta and you're on here crying for nerfs?

Get good lol. And no I don't "spam dodges" either. That's hardly a fact

RosencraN7z
02-21-2017, 08:18 AM
While I agree that dodges can be really annoying to deal with, I don't think they should be nerfed to that extent. Maybe a penalty for consecutive dodges.

For example: First dodge is free, but each dodge after that in immediate or quick (depending on how a change like this will actually alter combat) succession will cost more and more stamina up to a certain amount.

T_Djinn_T
02-21-2017, 03:55 PM
While I agree that dodges can be really annoying to deal with, I don't think they should be nerfed to that extent. Maybe a penalty for consecutive dodges.

For example: First dodge is free, but each dodge after that in immediate or quick (depending on how a change like this will actually alter combat) succession will cost more and more stamina up to a certain amount.

That could work extremely well. It punishes people who do nothing but spam dodge. And rewards those who use it intelligently.

T_Djinn_T
02-21-2017, 04:08 PM
Yeah, nerf dodge to make permablocking classes OP, cause they don't know that assassins must refresh stance with every attack and actually will be 20x harder to play than any other class if dodge will be touched somehow.

If you took the time to learn how to play the game. Instead of just spamming dodge all match every match you probably wouldn't be triggered by this post.

Most people reflex block to begin with. So having a non-persistent block is fine. You reflex it. Anyways. If it's a heavy you just parry it. Lights will send your opponent reeling

T_Djinn_T
02-21-2017, 04:10 PM
Have you considered the absurd snowballing an exhausted character would suffer, if dodge cost stamina?

Don't put yourself in a situation where you're going to run out of stamina?

If you're spamming your attacks so much that you run out of stamina I'm guessing you're against this change because immediately following that you're probably spamming backwards dodge so you're 100% safe against everything

Braegulfer
02-21-2017, 04:17 PM
Combat system already favors turtles and blockers/parriers enough. I'm fine with it, but dodge does not need a gimp. I truly believe this is a L2P issue, but I respect the thought and rationality you put in your initial post so I'm not going to blast you for it, I just humbly disagree with your assertion.

ReggiR
02-21-2017, 04:17 PM
Really? Dodges are a problem? What about parry that is easy as dodging, but punishing much harder then dodge attack? 80% stamina drain if you parry? And dodges are easy countered, on another side to punish parry you need to feint and enemy cant feint his heavy attack (parry atempt).

And no, i dont dodge all the time, i just find them so easy to punish, that i dont see any point of that thread.

Ynkey-_-
02-21-2017, 04:27 PM
I suggest to everyone who doesn't like dodge to try at least several games as PK and than tell me how you can fight without main combo (dodge+atk) and using block/parry only

Braegulfer
02-21-2017, 04:33 PM
I suggest to everyone who doesn't like dodge to try at least several games as PK and than tell me how you can fight without main combo (dodge+atk) and using block/parry only

You can't. The op is wrong but seems fairly bright and so far has been respectful so I again disagree with his assertion in totality.

m1y4gi
02-21-2017, 04:46 PM
Dodge is fine as it is. When your opponents "dodge you out", your problem :P the idea of giving a dodge stamina costs is a neackbreaker for all assassins. They love dodging, it's their playstyle. When you don't dodge, your choice. But this idea sounds like "i don't play those classes which use XXXX, so pls nerf XXXX".

TCTF_SWAT
02-21-2017, 04:55 PM
Heavy classes would take quite the hit.

Munktor
02-21-2017, 05:03 PM
Dodge is fine as it is. When your opponents "dodge you out", your problem :P the idea of giving a dodge stamina costs is a neackbreaker for all assassins. They love dodging, it's their playstyle. When you don't dodge, your choice. But this idea sounds like "i don't play those classes which use XXXX, so pls nerf XXXX".

Not saying, "I want this implemented" but they could make it so certain classes have a small stamina cost vs other classes having a large stamina cost for dodging.

Now it doesn't drastically hurt the assassin type, but it does cap the amount you can do (i.e. no longer infinite dodge).

JibletHunter
02-21-2017, 08:50 PM
The orochi and PK mains are out in force I see. Dodge is broken.


Can it be played around -yes (this is not the issue). The issue is for the vast majority of tactics one or two buttons and some timing will counter it. With dodge (specifically those with a built in attack) requires (1) a attack (2) cancellation with feint, (3) the opposing player to fall for the feint- something you cannot control, (4) look to the direction of the dodge attack, (5) parry with proper timing, (6) punish.

The risk-reward with these moves are out of kilter with all other counter-play tactics in the game. It is never healthy to have a definitely best defense tactic (which i believe was the point of the op).

Simply pointing out that it can be countered does not change the fact that to do so requires an opponent to do much more than any other tactic.

DeLatv
02-21-2017, 09:22 PM
Whats next? Heavy attacks should change, cos i cant parry them ,lul? :D omg people doesnt want to ****ing learn to play a FIGHTING game at all.

Like, please do the doge attack against me... I will parry into guard break into heavy attack, 100% of the time.

Vigarious
02-21-2017, 09:32 PM
You state that it's overly powerful and needs to be changed, but that people with the highest amount of playtime (veterans, as you classified them,) don't use it. How can both be true?

T_Djinn_T
02-22-2017, 01:30 AM
You state that it's overly powerful and needs to be changed, but that people with the highest amount of playtime (veterans, as you classified them,) don't use it. How can both be true?

Veteran's (myself included) use dodge. That's a fact. But we don't spam or abuse it.
The changes suggested are to reduce the people who refuse to do anything BUT dodge.

T_Djinn_T
02-22-2017, 01:42 AM
The orochi and PK mains are out in force I see. Dodge is broken.


Can it be played around -yes (this is not the issue). The issue is for the vast majority of tactics one or two buttons and some timing will counter it. With dodge (specifically those with a built in attack) requires (1) a attack (2) cancellation with feint, (3) the opposing player to fall for the feint- something you cannot control, (4) look to the direction of the dodge attack, (5) parry with proper timing, (6) punish.

The risk-reward with these moves are out of kilter with all other counter-play tactics in the game. It is never healthy to have a definitely best defense tactic (which i believe was the point of the op).

Simply pointing out that it can be countered does not change the fact that to do so requires an opponent to do much more than any other tactic.

^ Accurate statement.

TR.WhiskeyD
02-22-2017, 02:02 AM
The problem with dodge that I see is that far too often the player dodges and either dodges through an oncoming attack or doesn't make it out of range of the attack and you watch as your blade goes clean through the guy dodging without connecting. It's too effective because you can be stupid enough to dodge wrong and get away with it because you apparently dematerialize.

Agreed. I had a peacekeeper in a corner as a raider, physically pinned. I swung with a right heavy and the little bastage dodged...in place...and I watched my axe sail right through her body as if she was cosplaying a dementor from Harry Potter.

BOT..Salty
02-22-2017, 02:17 AM
Veteran's (myself included) use dodge. That's a fact. But we don't spam or abuse it.
The changes suggested are to reduce the people who refuse to do anything BUT dodge.

I don't spam it either, but it shouldn't get nerfed imo. If u see him spamming doge, u spam doge too. Doge is the least of my concerns. I don't understand how hard can it be kill someone who spams dodge. REally, I can't. Is he dodging around u? use the light+heavy. Is he dodging and hitting u? Learn to block. Is he dodging and running away? The maps aren't that big in duel or brawl. Is he dodging and that's it? /dance with him. I don't get it. And U cannot abuse dodge, cuz there is nothing u can do while dodging that does so much dmg. You say you are a veteran but u cry over dodge? Hmmmm are u playing a noobushi? Or a tank class? I play orochi and I don't find dodging OP, especially when other noob orochis spam it. Dodging left, guard left, dodging right, guard right, dodging your heavy, eat the punishment. How about we talk about something which IS broken, like GB spam, shoulder charge spam, throwing you 20 meters off balconies and that kinda stuff. Dodge... dodge is fine.

Rump_Buffalo
02-22-2017, 02:42 AM
If you people can't block a dodge attack your bad plain and simple....

but you physically cant block a dodge attack if they dodged your attack with it

Delectable_Sin
02-22-2017, 03:21 AM
The funniest thing about the noobs that think defense is too strong, is the fact that adding stamina costs to defensive maneuvers will cripple offense. In that state, the first person to run out of stamina auto-loses, because defense would be impossible without stamina. Because of that, no one would risk taking the chance to attack aggressively.

Use your head people, think a little bit. If you really think defense is too strong, just ask for more chip damage. Adding stamina costs to defense will destroy this game.

It's a damn good thing people like the TS don't make decisions regarding the game.

T_Djinn_T
02-22-2017, 04:22 PM
I don't spam it either, but it shouldn't get nerfed imo. If u see him spamming doge, u spam doge too. Doge is the least of my concerns. I don't understand how hard can it be kill someone who spams dodge. REally, I can't. Is he dodging around u? use the light+heavy. Is he dodging and hitting u? Learn to block. Is he dodging and running away? The maps aren't that big in duel or brawl. Is he dodging and that's it? /dance with him. I don't get it. And U cannot abuse dodge, cuz there is nothing u can do while dodging that does so much dmg. You say you are a veteran but u cry over dodge? Hmmmm are u playing a noobushi? Or a tank class? I play orochi and I don't find dodging OP, especially when other noob orochis spam it. Dodging left, guard left, dodging right, guard right, dodging your heavy, eat the punishment. How about we talk about something which IS broken, like GB spam, shoulder charge spam, throwing you 20 meters off balconies and that kinda stuff. Dodge... dodge is fine.

You play Orochi. The only thing you know how to do is sit there and wait to spam dodge attack. You will lose every match against someone like me. But the problem with it. While I know I will win against players like you. You will waste my time making every match 15+ mins. This is where the problem lies. Infinite dodge spamming like all Orochis Peace keepers and most every other class does leads to ridiculously long matches that have no fun or merit. It's just. Ok you're a kid with too much free time on your hands because you skipped school today. Now I get to sit here and waste my time because you think you're funny spamming dodge all game long.

But by saying you main Orochi you innately said you abuse the dodge mechanic that provides immunity and allows you to attack.
Go read the first line of the post. It applies to you... Perfectly.


The funniest thing about the noobs that think defense is too strong, is the fact that adding stamina costs to defensive maneuvers will cripple offense. In that state, the first person to run out of stamina auto-loses, because defense would be impossible without stamina. Because of that, no one would risk taking the chance to attack aggressively.

Use your head people, think a little bit. If you really think defense is too strong, just ask for more chip damage. Adding stamina costs to defense will destroy this game.

It's a damn good thing people like the TS don't make decisions regarding the game.

If you think adding stamina costs to the game would destroy it then you also probably don't think nerfing over powered classes is viable. You also probably think having 108 gear and getting matched against 4 players that aren't even rep 1 is balanced match making. Or that gear is perfectly fine not over powered or imbalanced at all.

You can't think one extreme without thinking of many.

If you honestly think they dodge shouldn't be nerfed to some degree then you most likely only play Assassin's think this change would effect you the most because the only thing you do is dodge.

Rather than complaining that dodge costing stamina will ruin the game with no reasoning to back it up. Add at least some form of argument. Not just "lul no you're wrong huehuehue"

Powermolch
02-22-2017, 04:36 PM
What i dont like about dodging, its not directional. Block, Parry, Deflect are directional, you have to worry from which direction the attck is coming from for a proper response.
Dodgin INTO an attack shouldnt be possible outside of the deflect timing window and end up in a deflect. Dodging backwards is a bit too far for my taste, its not a move a human could pull off imho.

T_Djinn_T
02-22-2017, 04:44 PM
What i dont like about dodging, its not directional. Block, Parry, Deflect are directional, you have to worry from which direction the attck is coming from for a proper response.
Dodgin INTO an attack shouldnt be possible outside of the deflect timing window and end up in a deflect. Dodging backwards is a bit too far for my taste, its not a move a human could pull off imho.

But... Mega man can do it! Why can't we just take one step that covers 20 yards backwards too!