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View Full Version : Balance Talk (Since everyone complains about every other class, please read)



Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 06:09 PM
First of all, hello. I want to start with saying I am not an expert, and not a developer, so take what I say as you wish. Now on to the point.

Considering the fact that all I see on the forum currently is talk about "this class is weak, buff it" or "this class is broken, nerf it and make it unplayable", I shall try to help all of you out with some words of wisdom.

The balance in the current game is bad, we all know it. Add to that the fact that connectivity issues causes lag and other problems in duels, and suddenly some classes will be really hard to beat as some-or-other class. I will be going through all twelve classes currently in the game, hopefully you've all stayed with me so far. Let's begin:

VIKINGS:
Raider
Berserker
Warlord
Valkyrie

No doubt some of you have problems with these classes, so I will list their strengths and weaknesses, something that others have failed to do in the midst of their rage at certain "********" prospects that classes indeed do have.
So first of all, there's four roles in the game, let's go in the same order and let's give a brief background to these roles. Why? Because contrary to popular belief, roles mean what type of playstyle a Hero in the game has, and his/her strengths.

Vanguard: Frontline type, moderate damage and speed as well as strong defensive capabilities and cc. Typically Vanguard is the most all-around class. Can fight all roles with lesser disadvantages / advantages.
Assassin: Backline type, the dude who stays back and waits for a good target, not built to fight Heavies, Quick class with moderate to high damage, deflects are a special ability that requires good timing and gives a decent reward for pulling it off. Typically has issues with Heavies, but can stand toe-to-toe with any other role.
Heavy: Frontline type fighters who specialize in their defensive capabilities. Has a ton of cc and very strong guardbreaks. Often played as a counter-attacker, with high damage and stamina drain. Typically good in every situation, arguably the most important role to have atleast one of in your team, regardless of gamemode.
Hybrid: Here's where things get tricky, people want nobushi defense boosted, valk damage increased et cetera. No. A Hybrid is a, read again, HYBRID, and not any other type. That means they will be a blend of 2-3 different roles, and likely a mix between two Heroes in the game. These are the most versatile classes in the game (Worth noting is that Warden is also extremely adaptable, even though it's a Vanguard.)

Keep in mind that the classes have different healthbars. There are three types (that I am aware off). Those are Vanguard type, which is about 5.1 healthbars. Heavy, which is about 6 healthbars. And Assassin, which is about 4.5 healthbars.

Vanguard: Raider
The Raider is a Vanguard type class who typically wants to do a lot of mixups. The class has many, many tools available for using to win a duel. Good blocking, high heavy damage and a good speed on light attacks, which do a completely okay amount of damage.
The guardbreak has a pretty good distance as well as a quick animation, and the throwing distance is insane. Charging people into walls will automatically trigger a stun on the opponent, causing them to be unable to see guard direction indicators for a short time. It does not guarantee a heavy overhead, but it does guarantee a heavy side attack or light attack.
The area attack is a hard-hitting, unblockable attack. It is slow, it has a long range and is very telegraphed in both sound and animation. Easily parried.
The class also has glaring stamina problems if not managed correctly, use this to your advantage!

Be careful not to let them use environmental hazards against you, and let them take the initiative, or bait them by faking.
Everyone who complains about this class being weak/op, I firmly believe that you are wrong and that the class is balanced. My friend who has played the class since closed beta and is still going strong, can confirm that it is very rewarding played correctly, but easily made mistakes gets you punished. He thinks the class doesn't need a buff of any kind, and that a nerf would be unnecesary. I, myself, not being a Raider player, agree.

Assassin: Berserker
The Berserker is the Vikings Assassin type class, a mobile offensive class which has crazy combos and fast cancels as well as hyper armor on heavy attacks. Hyper armor means that the attack cannot be interrupted even by hitting them during it.
Their guardbreak is very short range, but is extremely fast and guarantees a heavy attack, or a throw with a moderate distance.
Lacks any sweep attack which most other classes have, but instead has a lot of movement and very strong dodges.
Deflecting attacks guarantees a guardbreak, but has no other follow-up hit, unlike the Peacekeeper and Orochi (will be covered further down).
They deal a low amount of damage with most attacks, but hit fast with very scary combos which barely drain stamina.
Key to playing vs this class is to play defensively, and let them come to you. Careful not to fall for their fakes!

I have seen many posts about this class, and I think the class is actually another one which is balanced. Low damage on most attacks, but the overhead heavy for example deals a lot. You can play it in many different ways, and if your skill matches your opponent, you can always beat them. They make up for their low damage with fast attacks and the (arguably) most fake-heavy moveset in the game. Outplay your opponent, and you win. It's a skill based class, not one that can abuse on single thing to win. A friend of mine plays almost exclusively Berserker and he is a god at it, consistently beating almost everyone and being 7-0 or 11-2 most games. He says if anything it feels a bit too strong, but looking at the attacks there is nothing you can nerf without impacting the class in such a way that it becomes too weak, as evidenced by certain classes that are almost unbeatable because of the disadvantage when playing against them. Examples are Conqueror and Warlord.

Heavy: Warlord
The Warlord is the Heavy class in the Vikings armies, an extremely defensive class that focuses on counterplay and whittling their opponent down. This class, like the Berserker, has hyper armor on heavy attacks, making them easy to trade with or get that last heavy for the execution. They also have so-called "Superior Block Light Attacks" which means that during the startup frames of the light attacks, the Warlord still has his shield block active, which works as hyper armor in a single direction. Heavy attack damage is about 35 damage, which is pretty good! Lights do something along the lines of Warden lights, and are moderately quick.
The Warlord guardbreak has great range, by dashing forward automatically it will most likely hit most of the time. The throw range (in the form of a charge, in any of the four directions, right, left, back or forward) is massive, and staggers the opponent after the charge has been completed, allowing for a light attack. If you charge your opponent into a wall, they will be stunned automatically and you will be able to try to get a heavy attack off, but it is not guaranteed.
By pressing C the Warlord will enter "Full Block Stance" which blocks in all three directions. This can be used to cancel certain attacks and will throw your opponent off and stagger them for a free guardbreak!
Their Headbutt attack drains 20 of the targets stamina and guarantees a follow up combo'd light attack. It is, however, easily dodgeable and will be punished if it happens.
The key to this class is to be patient, let the enemy come to you and counter them using parries and trade with hyper armor and the light attack block.
Defeating a Warlord is to fake them out and bait them into coming after you, so that you counter them instead. Beat them at their own game!

This class, in all honesty, is just a bit too strong from mine and my friends experience. It is beatable, and it's not like they can spam one thing to win, but they have an advantage over most other classes in the game, to an extent that a Warlord who plays correctly is almost unbeatable. I suggest just nerfing heavy attacks by 5 damage so they hit for 30 and not 35, I think that's the only thing. It means that they have to hit one more heavy to kill and assassin or Kensei, just about, and I don't think it'd impact the class to such an extent that it would be too much. I just think it needs that one tiny little tweak.

Hybrid: Valkyrie
This class is a defensive hybrid with quick attacks, long combo chains and tons and tons of cc. Damage is quite low on the light attacks and the heavies are very slow. The stamina drain is quite high, so be careful with it. The Valkyrie also has access to a deflect with a strong bleed if you succeed! This, being the class that came out with the release, has a lot of complaints (they are understandable, but I think incorrect). I'll try to break the class down for you guys and explain.
This class highly benefits from being a skilled player, since it takes a long time to whittle your opponent down.
Like the Warlord, the Valkyrie has access to Superior Block Light attacks, as well as the Full Block Stance. This gives the Valkyrie the tools to trade and play the counter-attack game with their opponent, baiting their foes into a false sense of security with their passive playstyle and eventual pokes.
The Valkyrie guardbreak has moderate range, and a low throw distance, but guarantees side heavy attacks.
This class also has access to a Headbutt attack which drains the opponents stamina, as well as a Shield Tacle which knocks your enemy far, far away and makes pushes them back. Another attack is the Shield Crush, which makes the enemy fall.
Another cc ability they have access to is the Spear Sweep (which can be dodged in any direction, with the right timing), it will knock your opponent down and guarantee an overhead heavy attack.

The key to this class is, like the Warlord, the counterplay playstyle. Being patient and smart will greatly reward you with clean combos and taking all the stamina away from your enemies.
At the moment, after release, people are already complaining. I get why, the lights do not deal enough damage, it is true. Buff it by 2-3 damage per hit, and it'll be enough. It doesn't need more than that with how fast and cost-efficient they are. The reason why so many people complain is because they can't play it yet. A friend of mine recently started playing Valkyrie and is loving it. He has no complaints other than the light attack damage (since in elimination, time is very important when you can get 2v1'd), but he consistently beats other players. Again, the light attack does not need a large buff, but a slight one. But it does need one.

Now onto the next faction, Knights!

KNIGTHS
Warden
Peacekeeper
Conqueror
Lawbringer

Let us get right into it.

Vanguard: Warden
The Warden is an all-around character who is a very strong character due to his counter for overhead attacks, making him one of the single strongest classes in the game. Yes, you who believe Warden is weak, I am serious. Let me explain this to you:
Warden, like the Raider, typically wants to do a lot of mixups. The class has the perfect tools for this in the form of heavy-hitting heavies and moderate damage, fast lights. Side lights has a guaranteed second hit for a bit reduced damage, and almost equals the damage of a heavy attack, like the Orochi overhead double light.
The Warden's guardbreak has good range, a rather slow animation, and great throw distance. it guarantees a side heavy attack (I might be wrong, but haven't been able to guard it for a week even by just pulling the direction of the attack from the moment I fail my counter-guarbreak) and is a great tool to keep your opponent in check, and crazy good for your mixups!
Another strong point for the Warden is the fact that they have something called a "Crushing Counterstrike" which means that the top light attack can be used as a parry, and make it inflict heavy attack damage instead and becomes unblockable! This in itself, makes it have an advantage versus every class that relies on overheads. Two classes that come to mind are Orochi and Lawbringer.
Their area attack is also probably the best one in the game. It propells you forward a long distance, hits VERY quick, and deals more damage than normal overhead light attacks (Almost certain, might be the same). It is also only dodgeable in the direction that it comes from. Which means left, if the Warden is trying to hit you with it (it comes from the right side every time).
Warden also has a Shoulder Bash, a charge-up tackle attack that staggers the opponent and allows you to hit a guaranteed double light combo (from the sides) or a guardbreak. It can also be canceled into a guardbreak to catch your opponent offguard.
Ontop of this the Warden has a passive block like most other classes, making it a counter-attacking class with strong offensive capabilities.

The key to playing a Warden is doing a lot of mixups, and trying to be unpredictable. You can either play it offensively and fake out your opponent, or you can play reactively and counter-attack. Just be careful not to get guardbroken yourself!
Beating a Warden, however, comes from one of the hardest things to do in games like this: Reading your opponent. You need to adapt and know what they will do basically before they themselves know it. That is why the Warden is too strong, not too weak. Countering almost every class in the game because of the overhead counter is a bit ridiculous, but that's not the issue.
The real issue with the Warden is the combined speed, range and damage of the area attack. Nerf that, and I think it's enough. Nerfing a class doesn't mean making it bad, it means making less strong than they currently are. Again, don't overdo it. (Same goes for buffing, don't overdo it. Make it viable and good, not great.)

Assassin: Peacekeeper (Here comes the tears)
To ALL of you on the forum saying Peacekeeper is overpowered... Learn how to counter the class, don't just expect them to not cheese you if they can. It's like throw distance classes knocking you off ledges every time, if you let them spam the jump stab without punishing, you lose. Get over it, and focus on learning. Let me explain how it is:

The Peacekeeper is an extremely offensive character that has a great dodge distance, making it easy to weave in and out of combat. It has good offensive capabilities in all it's forms of damage, but severaly lacks any defense apart from their dodging around. Careful not to get too aggressive, or they will dance around you with their jump stab!
Peacekeeper is another of the Assassin role which has access to the Deflect ability, which means dodging into an attack at the same timing as a parry, and then getting a guaranteed hit off. The hit is a dagger stab which applies a bleed (which has been nerfed).
The guardbreak is the main strength of the Peacekeeper, because it lets you land three stabs which all apply bleed onto the target (this is currently BUGGED, NOT NERFED, so all of you who still say it is too strong, you people truly have no idea. I will explain further) dealing a high amount of damage. This damage is just about equal to the guaranteed overhead heavies from classes like the Orochi. And wow, now people realize that "Oh... so PK actually isn't broken since their guardbreak bleed is basically weaker than Orochi guaranteed overhead heavy... oops." Excuse me, but I have read too many threads with these complaints. On to the show:
The Peacekeeper has a great amount of switches and mixups, with many different ways of engaging their targets, but rely mostly on jumping in with a stab, and their guardbreaks, to win fights. This is EXTREMELY easy to counter, since it only requires a block in the direction of their dodge. Don't commit with a parry or an attack when you see them dodge, wait for the indicator!
Playing a Peacekeeper requires you to stay on your toes and constantly be careful and smart about when you go in. It actually requires a lot of skill to play it, but it has one thing which makes it dumb: The jump stab spam. Not every player knows how to counter it, and it is abusable. It shouldn't be. Nerfing it's damage is not the "fix" it needs, nor it the speed or range of it anything that makes it overpowered and giving it a cooldown would completely ruin their chances of counter-attacking other classes. The bleed that you can get off of it now does no longer do a lot of damage, and I think that was all the nerfing the ability actually needed. Now it is up to the players to figure it out. THIS CLASS IS FINE, IT NEEDS NEITHER NERFS OR BUFFS SO LET THE DEVS BE. Honestly, read the above and practice it. You'll find PK players are not playing the "broken" class everyone is complaining about.

Heavy: Conqueror
The Knights' Heavy class is the Conqueror, a shieldbearer with a large amount of cc and hard hitting, chargeable attacks. Their main strength comes from counter attacking their opponents, which gives them guaranteed light attacks that chain into further combos. Careful to not get stuck!
Their guardbreak is quite good, allowing for a heavy attack most of the time (I believe sometimes lag causes it to be blocked in time, but not sure).
But the main strength of the Conqueror is its huge stamina drain on it's targets! By using their Shield Bash and Shield Bash Mixups they can drain someone out of stamina in only a few hits!
Add to it that they have the Full Block Stance (Being a Shield class, duh), which if you manage to block an attack gives you a guaranteed Shield Bash Riposte, and you have yourself yet another passive counter-attacker with strong offensive capabilities.
Also keep in mind that the class has the Superior Block feature, which means heavy attacks stagger you like a parry, and that their heavy attacks have the Superior Block Heavy Attacks feature, and they can properly pressure as well as defend!
The key to playing the class is to play defensively, but to know when to go on the offense as well! Don't let your enemy come to you all the time, make him!
Countering him is by faking him out and dodging the heavy attacks with a dodge attack. This makes most Heavy classes very hard to play versus the Conqueror, but not unbeatable.

The class feels balanced to me. It's strong, but not too strong. You will die if YOU make mistakes, and you let them punish you. You can still punish them yourselves. Their Shield Bash is the easiest thing to counter, very simple and very rewarding. Luckily I believe everyone is fully aware that Conqueror's need no buffs already, so I won't reprimand anyone like with the Peacekeeper

Hybrid: Lawbringer
The Lawbringer, looks cool, damage is low and range is short, which is weird, as well as having very telegraphed abilities and no guaranteed heavies. Though, I don't think it's too weak at all. Here's why:
The Lawbringer is the Knights faction Hybrid class, sporting a halberd which makes you look pretty darn cool.
Their guardbreak is insanely good, with a massive throwing distance and a moderate range (Long Arm of the Law, puntastic eh?). The guardbreak will not allow you to land a guaranteed heavy, but a guaranteed light attack is there. However, using your throwing distance you can throw your opponent into walls and get a guaranteed side heavy!
The Lawbringer's heavies hit for a rather lackluster amount of damage for how extremely slow and telegraphed they are, but the overhead stuns! You can also instantly Shove by pressing the guardbreak button after a successfull heavy attack. But BE CAREFUL WITH THIS! The Lawbringer uses up a ton of its stamina very, very fast, and can easily leave you exhausted and vulnerable!
This class has access to four combos which are very powerful, but badly designed. It's cool to have a long chain attack, but no player in this game will allow you to hit light, heavy, heavy to actually get your unblockable off.
Apart from all these glaring problems, here is what his strong points are:
In teamfights (teammates are with you) using Long Arm of the Law greatly benefits your allies as it guarantees 1-2 heavy attacks on the target being lifted! This makes it extremely viable in gamemodes like dominion and Skirmish.
The Lawbringer also heavily relies on it's defensive capabilities, having an instant Shove ready after a block can get you a guardbreak if your opponent is not ready for it, since the guarbdreak is counter-able.
His area attack is extremely wide, moderately fast and pretty quick. It deals a nice amount of damage too, but be careful with the stamina!
Parrying the opponent will allow you to either use an unblockable (really, really slow) overhead heavy, or a quick guaranteed light attack that deals a nice chunk of damage.
The key to playing the Lawbringer is to simply let the opponent outplay himself on you, by countering with parries and combos, Shoving and using guarbreaks, that is how you win. Also, abusing your throw distance makes him excellent for using environmetal hazards, so keep an eye out!

Simlilarly, winning against a Lawbgringer at the moment is quite simple because he lacks a viable way of playing offensively. There's really nothing but using guardbreaks that makes you actually hit someone.
Now, the class is a bit weak, as you can all tell. The problem is buffing his damage or speed will make him too strong in teamfights, so the balance has to be something else. A good way of balancing out is to simply make his heavies a tiny bit quicker, literally just a tiny bit, and giving him access to his unblockable attack outside of combos and parries (I know it's a Vanguard thing, but this class likely needs it. I'm not saying I know better, but I think it would help).

So now it is only the Samurai faction left!

SAMURAI
Kensei
Orochi
Shoguki
Nobushi
On a side note, pretty sure this faction is the "strongest" in terms of the balance on their heroes. But let's get into it!

Vanguard: Kensei
First to note is that Kensei has less hp than the other two Vanguard heroes (Raider having the most by a little bit over Warden), but is a very good all-rounded Hero.
The Kensei is another of the Vanguard types, sporting an insane amount of fake-able attacks. Most of anything he does can be canceled into other attacks, and he deals a lot of damage.
The heavies from the class hits for a nice amount of damage, and in every chain finisher there is an overhead unblockable heavy which deals a huge amount of damage!
Their guardbreak has crazy range with their dash-guarbreak, allowing for an easy stun into a faked attack, catching the opponent offguard.
Worth noting is that their zone attack, whilst being moderatly slow and telegraphed by a voice line, has hyper armor! Makes trading very simple with its high amount of damage.
Their light attacks are fast stabs from different directions, dealing an insane amount of damage at 20 per hit! A good comparison for this is the Orochi double overhead light (everyone knows how much this hurts) which deals 18 per hit!
The Kensei is not a defensive class, as it lacks the means to counter players the way Warden does, so instead plays more like a squisher Raider with more damage.
The key to playing Kensei at the moment is to fake your opponent out, you don't spend too much of your stamina when using your attacks, so you have a lot of room to fake
Playing versus a Kensei is usually best to play as reactively as possible, parry and counter-attack since he will go on the offensive. But don't be scared to pressure him, since he lacks the same counter abilities as Warden or Lawbringer!

At this moment, I feel that Kensei is too strong. Weird, right? Well, considering the fact that Kensei double light (almost guaranteed, it's very quick and a good player will manage to land it a lot by fakes and attack direction fakes) deals more damage than Raider overhead heavy, in a shorter amount of time, I don't think I'm wrong. At the same time, I feel like that is the only thing that actually needs a nerf. They used to be 15-15, but are now 20-20. I say the middle ground, maybe 18-17 for a total of 5 damage nerf? It wouldn't hit the class too hard, skilled players won't exactly start losing matches because of it and at the same time it doesn't let you do it 3-4 times to kill any assassin in the game.

Assassin: Orochi
People will get mad when I say this, but I think this is one of the most balanced classes in the game currently (no, I am not an Orochi main). The class does exactly what it is supposed to do, and is rewarded by quick thinking and player skill. The only thing which is really dumb is the guardbreak double overhead spam that some Orochis seems to enjoy so much right now. But it's the exact same as with Peacekeeper, just counter the guardbreak and wam, they can't cheese you anymore. Just practice the timing in some 1v1s, it's a lot easier than you think. Onto the class:

Orochi is a class that relies extremely heavily on playing reactively, but has very strong offensive capabilities. Its main weakness lies in its stamina consumption and exhaustion recovery, so parry them and block them and then you can capitalize!
The Orochis guardbreak has very short range, and throwing distance. But the strong point is that it guarantees an overhead heavy or a double overhead light attack, which means they can deal a lot of damage if people are not careful! After a successfull parry, the guardbreak cannot be countered, which makes classes like the Nobushi very good as they out-space the guardbreak range even when the Orochi parries her.
The class has access to many good fakes and quick attacks which all deal moderate to high damage. But keep an eye on that stamina bar!
Orochi is a very mobile class that builds on punishing others' mistakes and counter-attacking. Their dodge will go quite far and can be used for three different directional attacks (light attacks) that deal a moderate amount of damage. Also, when dodging backwards, they can use a dashing-strike called Storm Rush. This attack is a heavy attack that deals a high amount of damage, but is extremely slow and very telegraphed. Careful though! They can fake it after two steps or when holding the blade, don't be fooled into a missed parry because they faked you!
The Orochi sweep attack is very, very good. It hits fast, it hits wide (but pretty short) and it hits hard. However, like the Raider unblockable it takes about 55%~ of your stamina, and if blocked even more, again stamina is key here!
The key to playing versus an Orochi is to be prepared to counter-guardbreak. Don't let them get any parries either, fake them out to hit them and guardbreak them yourself!

The class is balanced. Sure, it mostly has strengths as you can see, but the thing is this: The kit is hard to use correctly. With skill an Orochi is among the best classes, because the moveset is good. Not beacuse it's unbalanced. If you are dying constantly to Orochis, you likely just need more practice against them, so don't be discouraged and please, please, don't just complain about it on the forum because they went 5 - 0 in a Brawl match.

Heavy: Shoguki
This is the one class that I have some proper complaints about. Shoguki lacks any real counters because of his moveset, since it allows him to make mistakes that the enemy can't capitalize on. This game is more or less built on counter-attacking at the higher levels, and you can't counter attack a Shoguki because of their Passive Uninterruptable Stance, unless you play a Bleed class and manage to keep it on them at all times. Anyway, onto the class:
The Shoguki is the Samurai factions' Heavy class, capable of dishing out huge amounts of damage with very few and very slow attacks.
His strength lies in that he has a so-called "Passive Uninterruptable Stance" which makes him take one attack (or guardbreak...) every x seconds which doesn't stagger him, allowing him to freely hit you back for just about twice as much damage as you did.
His Heavy attacks are chargeable, and therefore extremely slow, but can be canceled. They deal absolutely humongous amounts of damage, and because of the Passive Uninterruptable Stance, you can rarely punish him unless you risk a parry, which if you miss you'll take 60~ damage.
The Shoguki's light attacks cannot be blocked normally, but can be parried and can be interrupted with Superior Block (such as the Full Block Stance of the Shield Classes), and deal a moderate amount of damage. They have some different timings on them, so parrying them requires a bit of practice to pull off.
The main strength of the Shoguki lies in his guardbreaks and the variant of them. A normal guardbreak is very quick and will land him a guaranteed. combo'd heavy that will throw you far backwards. The other version is the Charge of the Oni, which is a slow dash-up to the target (very quick after about a second of charging, so careful!) and then a grab, where he puts them over his shoulder and then breaks their backs with his club. This deals about 1/3 of your hp to most classes, and also heals him after he has thrown you onto the ground.
When the Shoguki is on critical health (blood effects on screen, red flashing, less than one healthbar) his Charge of the Oni (if successfull) deals 10000, yes ten thousand, damage to the target and heals him for about 65-70% of his hp afterwards. This makes him have an out even if you manage to outplay him, so be very careful!
The key to beating a Shoguki is to bait him into missing a charged heavy, then hit his passive stance off. After that you have to pressure him whilst not allowing him you counter you. He really only needs one catch to actually win versus basically any class.
Playing as the Shoguki, you just need to be smart with your heavy attacks, and to not be predictable.

The only real weakness to Shoguki is how slow he is, and when you compare it to Lawbringer (which is almost equally slow) it is downright broken. The only thing that actually needs nerfing however, is the Passive Uninterruptable Stance. I get why it's there, but it probably needs removing. I'm fine with everything else, really.

Hybrid: Nobushi
Here is where you all who hate Bleed SHOULD be complaining, since it is stronger than the Peacekeeper (especially now that the PK bleed is bugged, why there is no fix yet, I cannot understand, rip all of you PK mains).

The Nobushi is the Samurai factions' Hybrid class, specializing in making the opponent Bleed to death.
This class has five different ways of hitting a bleed attack, one being a combo-chain, and the other four being standalone specific attacks. This bleed is close to the damage of a heavy attack, so be careful! One mistake might be all it takes.
The light attacks of the Nobushi, as well as some of the Bleed-stacking attacks, are very fast and quite hard to read because of their Hidden Stance.
Hidden Stance is an ability that hides where the Nobushi is guarding, and can cancel basic attacks as well as be followed by any attack you wish. Using this to catch the opponent off guard is Alpha and Omega with this class, since this is your main fake and your cancels.
Their passive, Way of the Shark, makes them do an additional 30% damage to Bleeding targets, making their Heavy attacks hit for over 40 damage! Add to this fact that they have guaranteed heavies after certain combos, and they can land a bleed into guardbreak kick, heavy and there goes 80% of your lifebar. The next mistake is your death.
Playing against a Nobushi is mostly about being able to read them, and making sure you don't get hit by their Bleed or that you manage to punish the guardbreak-combo attempt.
Playing as a Nobushi you just need to be patient, but you are the one pressuring them since you are very easy to kill. Fake a lot and use many mixups, and you will get the win.

Honestly, I don't think Bleeds are that bad for any class, they never were (no I am not a Nobushi or PK main either). What they need to fix here to balance the class out is one of two things, either make the attack speed a bit slower so it's not as no-brain to Bleed-stab spam, or just nerf Way of the Shark by 10% or 15% damage. I don't think you can nerf it less than 10%, but 15% is probably too much.

Anyway, that is all I have to say. Turned out to be a long, really long, post. But for all those of you who read it all, thank you for understanding, and I would appreciate your input since I likely got some things wrong.

Kind Regards,
DubbelPandan

Braegulfer
02-16-2017, 06:19 PM
Yeah, really long, and exceptionally well done. Bumpitation.

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 06:26 PM
Yeah, really long, and exceptionally well done. Bumpitation.

Thanks :) Took me 2h 40 m x) But I think it's needed for people to realize that they just have to practice to get over most stuff.

Braegulfer
02-16-2017, 06:30 PM
Thanks :) Took me 2h 40 m x) But I think it's needed for people to realize that they just have to practice to get over most stuff.


Thanks for taking the time, best thread I've read in days, actually pin worthy. Notice how many less views it's getting than inflammatory whining from people who don't know the game 10% as well as you and your friends do.

Zv1k0
02-16-2017, 06:32 PM
Well written(that 1% i actually read lol). Its long but im definitely saving this thread for later reading. :)

Ynkey-_-
02-16-2017, 06:36 PM
As a person that plays only PeaceKeeper(because I like the class and the looks) I was very happy to read it's description from a person who really understands how the game works and why everybody just cries how OP it is. Thank you for honest review!

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 06:37 PM
Thanks guys, it's great to see this getting some good reception :)

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 06:46 PM
I do not agree. Balance does not show in 1 week and right now, there is no heavily competitive environments to prove this. So, can you back up this claim? People complaining on forums is not an indicator of bad game balance. Most people here probably would claim starcraft is unbalanced where in fact they just canīt play the race to their limit.

Everything else was well written and informative!

What you say is entirely true :) I do not have any proof for my claim of bad balance, and I think my post itself even contradicts it, thank you for your reply!

DeaIman
02-16-2017, 06:49 PM
I'd love to know how your mate plays Valkyrie if he consistently win duels, I want to love Valkyrie I really do - I love her design and I love the idea of fighting with a spear and shield - but I think that everything about her works against her.

Sure, the shield charge is great because of the full block and it covers a large distance(but is probably the easiest attack to dodge in the game) - but it knocks them out of your own reach meaning you can't land a heavy attack. If you're lucky you can do a leap attack forward - but that deals very little damage for the stamina cost.

Her heavy attacks are slower than slow, not sure what you're on about when you say a guardbreak is a guaranteed heavy attack(sideways), I certainly don't think it is. You'd want to think her reach is good since you know, a spear - good reach is kind of the purpose of it - but she has absolutely horrendous reach.

Really the only way I can find myself to win duels is by spamming the side-step stabs which can be rather confusing for the enemy. Her bleed attack seems bugged, something is off with the animation or timing of it, I can barely ever land a successful one.

I don't claim to be the best at this game, certainly not, I'd say I'm average or maybe just above average - but Valkyrie I honestly feel like she is the weakest character in the game currently. Where every other character has a unique playstyle which plays in their favor - Valkyrie simply has nothing... She's just bad.

Reinier-dash
02-16-2017, 06:54 PM
i play warden valk and orochi beats me everytime i use mixes doesn't help if they keep dogeing

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 07:05 PM
To TheProvocator
Well, I'm not the Valk main in here so you more than likely know better than I do, my friend uses a lot of fakes to bait out attacks that he then counters. That's how he plays.

To Peridot_clod
Then you should practice that matchup more and figure out how to counter it :) Use more fakes to bait him out, that's more than likely what you're not doing atm.

Thank you both for reading my post!

Aidie2005
02-16-2017, 07:08 PM
Good stuff, very thought out guide.

I must thank you for highlighting the fact the PKs bleed is currently bugged, i honestly thought it had been nerfed.

I am a PK player and i do get alot of people telling me how "OP" and "Easy" Pks are to play, I would love for someone to tell me where a PK is OP.

If its the bleeds well bleed is bugged for PK, If its the fact the PK is dodging around you and using the Jump stab, it can be punished.

I do agree orochi double over head after Guard break is abit too much and seems to be a well used technique.

My most hated class when im on a pk fightin is a Shougeki, I swear if i time my dodge wrong and i get blasted by a heavy i am literally sat on like 30% HP xD. I think i need more practise fighting that hero.

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 07:12 PM
Good stuff, very thought out guide.

I must thank you for highlighting the fact the PKs bleed is currently bugged, i honestly thought it had been nerfed.

I am a PK player and i do get alot of people telling me how "OP" and "Easy" Pks are to play, I would love for someone to tell me where a PK is OP.

If its the bleeds well bleed is bugged for PK, If its the fact the PK is dodging around you and using the Jump stab, it can be punished.

I do agree orochi double over head after Guard break is abit too much and seems to be a well used technique.

My most hated class when im on a pk fightin is a Shougeki, I swear if i time my dodge wrong and i get blasted by a heavy i am literally sat on like 30% HP xD. I think i need more practise fighting that hero.

Yeah, Shoguki is super strong right now, I just am not sure if removing the Passive Uninterruptable Stance is the right thing to do, but it seems like it to me. Just practice more and you'll figure it out, though PK is arguably one of the worst classes against it. Thanks for your reply! ^^

Braegulfer
02-16-2017, 07:13 PM
Good stuff, very thought out guide.

I must thank you for highlighting the fact the PKs bleed is currently bugged, i honestly thought it had been nerfed.

I am a PK player and i do get alot of people telling me how "OP" and "Easy" Pks are to play, I would love for someone to tell me where a PK is OP.

If its the bleeds well bleed is bugged for PK, If its the fact the PK is dodging around you and using the Jump stab, it can be punished.

I do agree orochi double over head after Guard break is abit too much and seems to be a well used technique.

My most hated class when im on a pk fightin is a Shougeki, I swear if i time my dodge wrong and i get blasted by a heavy i am literally sat on like 30% HP xD. I think i need more practise fighting that hero.


As a berserker I'm with you on the Shougeki, 100%. This class seems to swing-track (swing follows the dodge) better than any other class and just wrecks me atm.

Aidie2005
02-16-2017, 07:19 PM
Yeah i have noticed that Shoguki? Shougeki?? xD has very good swing track.

Also i have realised PKs are really bad against them, I don't like being one of those guys that throw people of ledges, but sometimes you got to lol.

Thazgar
02-16-2017, 07:24 PM
Very good post.

At the moment, the Shugoki and the Warden being god tiers are my only complain.

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 07:27 PM
Very good post.

At the moment, the Shugoki and the Warden being god tiers are my only complain.

Yes, the two of them are the only ones that are broken at the moment. Thanks for the reply :)

Brave_Thunder
02-16-2017, 07:27 PM
Very well written post,should be read by everyone that keeps blaming his defeats about op x and trash y.As a orochi main,gone from pk in the beta,I can confirm that his stamina problem are second only to those that the Lawbringer has.Just a question:do we have a site where we can see all the stats about heroes,such as life,damage for light and heavy hits and special abilityes?Would be very usefull to read some information about the heroes that you're gonna fight in duel.

Braegulfer
02-16-2017, 07:31 PM
mods, pin? please?

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 07:33 PM
Very well written post,should be read by everyone that keeps blaming his defeats about op x and trash y.As a orochi main,gone from pk in the beta,I can confirm that his stamina problem are second only to those that the Lawbringer has.Just a question:do we have a site where we can see all the stats about heroes,such as life,damage for light and heavy hits and special abilityes?Would be very usefull to read some information about the heroes that you're gonna fight in duel.

Thank you! And no I don't think there is, but that's a great suggestion to the devs! You should probably make a thread about that yourself so we can get some numbers going for the theorycrafters (I am one) :D

Einherjar25
02-16-2017, 07:35 PM
Good stuff, very thought out guide.

I must thank you for highlighting the fact the PKs bleed is currently bugged, i honestly thought it had been nerfed.

I am a PK player and i do get alot of people telling me how "OP" and "Easy" Pks are to play, I would love for someone to tell me where a PK is OP.

If its the bleeds well bleed is bugged for PK, If its the fact the PK is dodging around you and using the Jump stab, it can be punished.

I do agree orochi double over head after Guard break is abit too much and seems to be a well used technique.

My most hated class when im on a pk fightin is a Shougeki, I swear if i time my dodge wrong and i get blasted by a heavy i am literally sat on like 30% HP xD. I think i need more practise fighting that hero.

Base on the beta build I felt the PK grab was way to strong (dealing too much dmg). Besides that it is very strong contender but not OP. I am not gonna comment on the currently bugged version because well.. that's just it, it's bug. Let's see what they do on first patch. :)

Midoz223x
02-16-2017, 07:54 PM
]Vanguard: Raider
The Raider is a Vanguard type class who typically wants to do a lot of mixups. The class has many, many tools available for using to win a duel. Good blocking, high heavy damage and a good speed on light attacks, which do a completely okay amount of damage.
The guardbreak has a pretty good distance as well as a quick animation, and the throwing distance is insane. Charging people into walls will automatically trigger a stun on the opponent, causing them to be unable to see guard direction indicators for a short time. It does not guarantee a heavy overhead, but it does guarantee a heavy side attack or light attack.


Two problems. First, the only strength you've listed is easily counter-able at a higher level. No one misses a CBG when they get a chance. Also, a stun in the wall DOES NOT guarantee a heavy side attack. Either your friend is still pretty low-level and or isn't getting matched against better players. The only guaranteed hit you can get off, like the lawbringer, is a light attack.

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 07:58 PM
Two problems. First, the only strength you've listed is easily counter-able at a higher level. No one misses a CBG when they get a chance. Also, a stun in the wall DOES NOT guarantee a heavy side attack. Either your friend is still pretty low-level and or isn't getting matched against better players. The only guaranteed hit you can get off, like the lawbringer, is a light attack.

Hmm, thought I listed more strengths? In either case, I wrote heavy even though it is incorrect, you are right. Like I said, my post is not 100% right, thanks for pointing that mistake out :)

And no, he's good. I'd appreciate you not trashtalking my friend here.

Thazgar
02-16-2017, 08:06 PM
Going to upvote this pic.
People definitly needs to take a look at him.

Midoz223x
02-16-2017, 08:16 PM
Hmm, thought I listed more strengths? In either case, I wrote heavy even though it is incorrect, you are right. Like I said, my post is not 100% right, thanks for pointing that mistake out :)

And no, he's good. I'd appreciate you not trashtalking my friend here.

Well, one of the listed strengths is "good blocking" which is false. Raider is one of the slower blockers; better than assassins usually, but not exactly a strength. A lot of mix-ups? That's not entirely true either. He has feints, but so do most classes, The only Mix-up he has is dashes into either GB(easily counterable) or dash into light stun(easily readable). Besides that, all he has is a heavy feint into a light stun, but it's also stupid easy to read and react to.

That being said, I'm not trashtalking your friend, I'm simply saying he isn't very good yet if he believes half of what you wrote about the raider is true.

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 08:19 PM
Well, one of the listed strengths is "good blocking" which is false. Raider is one of the slower blockers; better than assassins usually, but not exactly a strength. A lot of mix-ups? That's not entirely true either. He has feints, but so do most classes, The only Mix-up he has is dashes into either GB(easily counterable) or dash into light stun(easily readable). Besides that, all he has is a heavy feint into a light stun, but it's also stupid easy to read and react to.

That being said, I'm not trashtalking your friend, I'm simply saying he isn't very good yet if he believes half of what you wrote about the raider is true.

I disagree with some of, you can do a lot of mixups, and like you said there are many feints.

That being said, let's agree to disagree, and again don't talk about my friend like that. He didn't write it, I did.

Thank you for pointing this out though, I guess it's very different since playstyles differ :)

Midoz223x
02-16-2017, 08:21 PM
I disagree with some of, you can do a lot of mixups, and like you said there are many feints.

That being said, let's agree to disagree, and again don't talk about my friend like that. He didn't write it, I did.

Thank you for pointing this out though, I guess it's very different since playstyles differ :)

What mix-ups? That's not a strength that is specific to the class. The only actual strength the class has is high damage(UNFORTUNATELY YOU CAN'T GET ANY OF IT OFF AGAINST A DECENT PLAYER.) and throw distance, which again, isn't going to land against a good player.

Half of what you've said is just plain wrong so you're just spreading misinformation. You've discredited yourself to talk about balancing.... Don't address an entire community when you don't know what you're talking about.

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 08:28 PM
What mix-ups? That's not a strength that is specific to the class. The only actual strength the class has is high damage(UNFORTUNATELY YOU CAN'T GET ANY OF IT OFF AGAINST A DECENT PLAYER.) and throw distance, which again, isn't going to land against a good player.

A couple points:
1. I never said it was class specific, tons of classes have mix-ups and feints.
2. There is plenty more strengths, and if it's a problem versus "decent players" and "good players" then you fail to fake them out to land your hits.
3. Mix-ups means doing different stuff to confuse your opponent, not specifically using built-in cancels.

Thank you :)

fightinirish6
02-16-2017, 08:28 PM
only a few things annoy me
1. lawbringer unblockabe charge, into guard break into heavy, repeat, theres nothing you can do about this
2. assassins constantly sliding to the side, light attacks just seem to phase through them and heavies just mess
3. warden unblockable charge,guard break, 2 slashes
4. orochi, guard break 2 top attacks

the fact that if i get guardbreak i have no way to block these free hits is so annoying even if i was already blocking from that direction and not matter how hard i try, guard breaks are so inconsistent, i've had both use try and guardbreak each other and his will take priority, i'll back step and get stunned, i'll hit the button as the icon appears and still get GB

Midoz223x
02-16-2017, 08:31 PM
A couple points:
1. I never said it was class specific, tons of classes have mix-ups and feints.
2. There is plenty more strengths, and if it's a problem versus "decent players" and "good players" then you fail to fake them out to land your hits.
3. Mix-ups means doing different stuff to confuse your opponent, not specifically using built-in cancels.

Thank you :)


So, in essence, you're just guessing. ****-post. You don't know what you're talking about. Moving on...

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 08:33 PM
only a few things annoy me
1. lawbringer unblockabe charge, into guard break into heavy, repeat, theres nothing you can do about this
2. assassins constantly sliding to the side, light attacks just seem to phase through them and heavies just mess
3. warden unblockable charge,guard break, 2 slashes
4. orochi, guard break 2 top attacks

the fact that if i get guardbreak i have no way to block these free hits is so annoying even if i was already blocking from that direction and not matter how hard i try, guard breaks are so inconsistent, i've had both use try and guardbreak each other and his will take priority, i'll back step and get stunned, i'll hit the button as the icon appears and still get GB

The Lawbringer Shove (unblockable charge) does not guarantee the guardbreak after, you can counter it, practice this with someone! :)
The attacks that phase through is when they use their dodge hit, i.e Orochi dodge and light combo, when they spin and hit. Dodge instead of hit them, or block/parry it.
The Warden unblockable guardbreak I don't believe is guaranteed either, again, counter guardbreak! Timing that is hard, but practice and you get it.

Read the post for the Orochi issue with that, I explained how it works and how to counter it.

Thank you for your reply! :)

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 08:35 PM
So, in essence, you're just guessing. ****-post. You don't know what you're talking about. Moving on...

Considering the fact that you don't know what you're talking about, the same can be said. Now take your arguement away from my post and move on.

Thank you for reading the post and providing feedback though!

TatoRezo
02-16-2017, 08:44 PM
I strongly disagree with what you said about the raider, and also some of the things is just incorrect. I am maining raider and am at 2.5 prestige right now
1) Raider doesn't get a free heavy that is just wrong, the only thing he gets free is 1 light attack and thats it.
2) Mixups? Sure, but u mixups only work when your opponent blocks, thing is that most of the characters and all of hybrid and assassin's can just dash/dodge back and they won't get hit by ANYTHING. Dodging to the side also works if timed correctly but back works 100%

The heavy damage raider has is almost non existent because of how slow, easily telegraphed thus dodgable and parriable and interruptable it is. The range on his attacks is also very short.

The passives like tackle and dash and grab he has would be cool but they are easily avoidable and even if you do dash and GB after a parry the opponent can still CGB.

I have trained myself against all those assassins that i was having trouble with and can finally kill most of them. But do you know what strategy I use? I just wait for them to attack and punish with parry>light attacks or ledge throw. I can do that with ANY character but sadly this is the only way to beat those guys.

As a suggestion many things could be improved, Attack speed, Weapon Range, it would be fantastic if he would have a free side heavy on GB or atleast direction on stun mixups (but this one is for high tier only cause noobs wouldnt figure), or maybe give the unblockable zone armor as well (uninteruptable).

Midoz223x
02-16-2017, 08:49 PM
I strongly disagree with what you said about the raider, and also some of the things is just incorrect. I am maining raider and am at 2.5 prestige right now
1) Raider doesn't get a free heavy that is just wrong, the only thing he gets free is 1 light attack and thats it.
2) Mixups? Sure, but u mixups only work when your opponent blocks, thing is that most of the characters and all of hybrid and assassin's can just dash/dodge back and they won't get hit by ANYTHING. Dodging to the side also works if timed correctly but back works 100%

The heavy damage raider has is almost non existent because of how slow, easily telegraphed thus dodgable and parriable and interruptable it is. The range on his attacks is also very short.

The passives like tackle and dash and grab he has would be cool but they are easily avoidable and even if you do dash and GB after a parry the opponent can still CGB.

I have trained myself against all those assassins that i was having trouble with and can finally kill most of them. But do you know what strategy I use? I just wait for them to attack and punish with parry>light attacks or ledge throw. I can do that with ANY character but sadly this is the only way to beat those guys.

As a suggestion many things could be improved, Attack speed, Weapon Range, it would be fantastic if he would have a free side heavy on GB or atleast direction on stun mixups (but this one is for high tier only cause noobs wouldnt figure), or maybe give the unblockable zone armor as well (uninteruptable).

I made the same arguments you did. Let me answer for OP.

"I see your facts, but I believe in my opinion more. So I disagree."

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 08:51 PM
I strongly disagree with what you said about the raider, and also some of the things is just incorrect. I am maining raider and am at 2.5 prestige right now
1) Raider doesn't get a free heavy that is just wrong, the only thing he gets free is 1 light attack and thats it.
2) Mixups? Sure, but u mixups only work when your opponent blocks, thing is that most of the characters and all of hybrid and assassin's can just dash/dodge back and they won't get hit by ANYTHING. Dodging to the side also works if timed correctly but back works 100%

The heavy damage raider has is almost non existent because of how slow, easily telegraphed thus dodgable and parriable and interruptable it is. The range on his attacks is also very short.

The passives like tackle and dash and grab he has would be cool but they are easily avoidable and even if you do dash and GB after a parry the opponent can still CGB.

I have trained myself against all those assassins that i was having trouble with and can finally kill most of them. But do you know what strategy I use? I just wait for them to attack and punish with parry>light attacks or ledge throw. I can do that with ANY character but sadly this is the only way to beat those guys.

As a suggestion many things could be improved, Attack speed, Weapon Range, it would be fantastic if he would have a free side heavy on GB or atleast direction on stun mixups (but this one is for high tier only cause noobs wouldnt figure), or maybe give the unblockable zone armor as well (uninteruptable).

You are right, I was wrong about the heavy side attack being guaranteed. I know you know this better than I do, but I strongly disagree that Raiders have short range. Dodging backwards as a Peacekeeper from some heavies you still get hit. That might just be late dodges, but it seems pretty consistent.

I agree that the damage is hard to land, but it is there. And yes, assassins can cheese with dodging and avoiding the tackle and grab. The same holds true for Warlord and Lawbringer.

Here's the issue with balancing: If you want to make Raiders have more attack speed, the damage likely has to get nerfed as a tradeoff. That might be a good thing, who knows, but therein lies the problem. You cannot buff a single class thinking about issues with it that other classes share, and not take into account similar classes with those same issues not being resolved. That creates imbalance.

I do, however, think that he needs a guaranteed heavy side attack, and I think that'd be enough as well.

Thank you for reading, and I appreciate the feedback!

P.S Question: Does the Kensei unblockable have hyper armor? If it does Raiders should as well, if not no.

Midoz223x
02-16-2017, 08:52 PM
You are right, I was wrong about the heavy side attack being guaranteed. I know you know this better than I do, but I strongly disagree that Raiders have short range. Dodging backwards as a Peacekeeper from some heavies you still get hit. That might just be late dodges, but it seems pretty consistent.

I agree that the damage is hard to land, but it is there. And yes, assassins can cheese with dodging and avoiding the tackle and grab. The same holds true for Warlord and Lawbringer.

Here's the issue with balancing: If you want to make Raiders have more attack speed, the damage likely has to get nerfed as a tradeoff. That might be a good thing, who knows, but therein lies the problem. You cannot buff a single class thinking about issues with it that other classes share, and not take into account similar classes with those same issues not being resolved. That creates imbalance.

I do, however, think that he needs a guaranteed heavy side attack, and I think that'd be enough as well.

Thank you for reading, and I appreciate the feedback!

P.S Question: Does the Kensei unblockable have hyper armor? If it does Raiders should as well, if not no.

A slight nerf to damage would be great if they could guarantee heavies landing. As it is now, you can make the heavy attack one shot somebody and it wouldn't matter; it will never land against a good player.

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 08:53 PM
I made the same arguments you did. Let me answer for OP.

"I see your facts, but I believe in my opinion more. So I disagree."

Let me see if I can see what you were saying "I refuse to believe that I could possibly wrong since I have to know better. I can't handle an arguement where not all my points, only some, are valid." Think I got it down ^^

That being said, I have already reported you. Kindly leave my post like you said before. Goodday! :)

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 08:54 PM
A slight nerf to damage would be great if they could guarantee heavies landing. As it is now, you can make the heavy attack one shot somebody and it wouldn't matter; it will never land against a good player.

To that I agree, now read the post before this one or stay civil.

Deus-Vultt
02-16-2017, 08:57 PM
I looked for lawbrigner to see if you were one of morons who thinks he's fine, didn't read anything else because you do, obviously u dont play him at a decent level.


anyone with a shred of intelligence would know lawbringer is complete garbage.

jezpida
02-16-2017, 09:01 PM
are ****ing serious you say the berserker is fine but think the warden needs a slight nerf the **** you drinking. have you ever experience high level berserker play probably not

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 09:02 PM
I looked for lawbrigner to see if you were one of morons who thinks he's fine, didn't read anything else because you do, obviously u dont play him at a decent level.


anyone with a shred of intelligence would know lawbringer is complete garbage.

I am fully aware how garbage he is in 1v1, but you can't buff him so that he instead becomes broken in teamfights.

Thank you for your reply though, and I understand the Lawbringer frustration, because it's horrible atm. But it only needs a slight buff (that doesn't mean the buff I speak of is the right one).

TatoRezo
02-16-2017, 09:03 PM
You are right, I was wrong about the heavy side attack being guaranteed. I know you know this better than I do, but I strongly disagree that Raiders have short range. Dodging backwards as a Peacekeeper from some heavies you still get hit. That might just be late dodges, but it seems pretty consistent.

I agree that the damage is hard to land, but it is there. And yes, assassins can cheese with dodging and avoiding the tackle and grab. The same holds true for Warlord and Lawbringer.

Here's the issue with balancing: If you want to make Raiders have more attack speed, the damage likely has to get nerfed as a tradeoff. That might be a good thing, who knows, but therein lies the problem. You cannot buff a single class thinking about issues with it that other classes share, and not take into account similar classes with those same issues not being resolved. That creates imbalance.

I do, however, think that he needs a guaranteed heavy side attack, and I think that'd be enough as well.

Thank you for reading, and I appreciate the feedback!

P.S Question: Does the Kensei unblockable have hyper armor? If it does Raiders should as well, if not no.

That tradeoff would be better because some damage > no damage

Ya but those other classes have guaranteed heavy hits

Kenseis top doesnt but he does have a cancel into uninteruptable which is veeery solid. Also kensei is much faster in both dashes and attacks

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 09:03 PM
are ****ing serious you say the berserker is fine but think the warden needs a slight nerf the **** you drinking. have you ever experience high level berserker play probably not

I have, and I beat them. So, yes I am serious, especially about Warden being god tier at the moment.

Berserker is a really strong class in the hands of a good player, but that's because of their skill with the moveset, not because the moveset is broken.

Thank you for reading my post :)

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 09:04 PM
That tradeoff would be better because some damage > no damage

Ya but those other classes have guaranteed heavy hits

Kenseis top doesnt but he does have a cancel into uninteruptable which is veeery solid. Also kensei is much faster in both dashes and attacks

Dude I forgot to mention that didn't I? Yeah that hyper armor is really good.

And yes, he is. As we both agreed on before, I think raising attack speed for slight damage nerf might be what Raider needs.

Thank you for your input, I appreciate it! :)

Midoz223x
02-16-2017, 09:19 PM
I have, and I beat them. So, yes I am serious, especially about Warden being god tier at the moment.

Berserker is a really strong class in the hands of a good player, but that's because of their skill with the moveset, not because the moveset is broken.

Thank you for reading my post :)

Basically, this thread is an average player vs average players that hasn't seen any high level play. Your arguments aren't going to be valid.

Myrnodyne
02-16-2017, 09:22 PM
I'm getting a little tired about the hate towards Shugoki.

I'm not going to get into a Tug-O-War about who's the better player, or who has the most experience. In the released game, I'm a Shugoki main, I've picked him up since then and it has been a STRUGGLE to learn more advanced ways to play him because of his EXTREMELY limited moveset. Most assassins can already interrupt your first hit with two of their own if you mess up. Without gear, your stamina management is HELL, and most of the time it doesn't even lead to any guarantees.

He's so slow, that if you take away the passive armor, that allows him a window of 2-3 seconds to more or less safely attack every 10 seconds or so, you'll end up with a lumbering idiot that can't hit ****... think cave troll in the LOTR movies. His most OP move isn't even the shield, it's not the charged heavy, it's not the heavily telegraphed charge. The move that wins me to most fights with him is Heavy into Heavy, because it actually brings him a step forward after the first swing, which takes many uninformed people off guard.

For pities sake, if the Shugoki is that strong, PLEASE, just play him for a while, preferably in duels, without his feats and gear, and see if your 'theories' hold up.

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 09:31 PM
I'm getting a little tired about the hate towards Shugoki.

I'm not going to get into a Tug-O-War about who's the better player, or who has the most experience. In the released game, I'm a Shugoki main, I've picked him up since then and it has been a STRUGGLE to learn more advanced ways to play him because of his EXTREMELY limited moveset. Most assassins can already interrupt your first hit with two of their own if you mess up. Without gear, your stamina management is HELL, and most of the time it doesn't even lead to any guarantees.

He's so slow, that if you take away the passive armor, that allows him a window of 2-3 seconds to more or less safely attack every 10 seconds or so, you'll end up with a lumbering idiot that can't hit ****... think cave troll in the LOTR movies. His most OP move isn't even the shield, it's not the charged heavy, it's not the heavily telegraphed charge. The move that wins me to most fights with him is Heavy into Heavy, because it actually brings him a step forward after the first swing, which takes many uninformed people off guard.

For pities sake, if the Shugoki is that strong, PLEASE, just play him for a while, preferably in duels, without his feats and gear, and see if your 'theories' hold up.

Alright, I'll take your word for it and try that.
Thank you for the feedback! :)

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 09:33 PM
Basically, this thread is an average player vs average players that hasn't seen any high level play. Your arguments aren't going to be valid.

Kindly leave my post, I have had enough of you trashtalking since you don't have a single clue about anything other than what class you play.

Let me repeat myself: Leave.

Myrnodyne
02-16-2017, 09:33 PM
Alright, I'll take your word for it and try that.
Thank you for the feedback! :)

Thanks! Let me know what you think after you've played him a bit :)

Roach-senpai
02-16-2017, 09:34 PM
Thanks! Let me know what you think after you've played him a bit :)

I will man! Thank you for reading my long post x)

psyminion
02-16-2017, 10:36 PM
I think you've nailed the 'balance' issue to a t.

the way I see it, the heroes aren't balanced, the factions are.

I love it personally.

DarkCthulhuss
02-16-2017, 10:53 PM
so much text and words just to make an excuse of peackeeper being so op
peacekeeper is the most over powered hero in the game atm. you cant do a **** vs her spam-fiesta in your face, her attacks are faster than your block position switch, you wont gb her, you wont parry her, all you can do - dash backwards just to waste a lil bit of your and his time. i dont wanna even bother replying here after again. you can say whatever you want but :1- you probably havent meet any peacekeeper above level 5. 2 - you are casual player who cant see real problem of balance. 3-probably you love playing this spam-clown hero.
p.s. especially if you playing as heavy class - there is less than 0,000000001% chance you gonna win pk

p.s.s.- simple way to proof my words, tell me which heroes are now currently most in use, maybe shugoki? maybe kenshi? or maybe people play rider with conqueror \ valk? NO DUDE, ABSOLUTLY DAMN NO. 90% of time you will see orochi\pk\nobushi\berserker. guess why? they have nice design and looks cool? hell no. People take them by a simple reason- because they are stronger than any other class and its so easy to spam attacks in different stances.
And i cant understand all the likes you got here just because you wrote hell of a text which just describing a little bit class just like in any other game like: " Warrior - a melee class that uses sword and shield in a battlefield. Best way to defeat your enemy is move close as you can to him and use shield to block his attacks, and when he least expects it you strike with your sword dealing massive damage to your foe."

xW11nD
02-16-2017, 11:44 PM
so much text and words just to make an excuse of peackeeper being so op
peacekeeper is the most over powered hero in the game atm. you cant do a **** vs her spam-fiesta in your face, her attacks are faster than your block position switch, you wont gb her, you wont parry her, all you can do - dash backwards just to waste a lil bit of your and his time. i dont wanna even bother replying here after again. you can say whatever you want but :1- you probably havent meet any peacekeeper above level 5. 2 - you are casual player who cant see real problem of balance. 3-probably you love playing this spam-clown hero.
p.s. especially if you playing as heavy class - there is less than 0,000000001% chance you gonna win pk

p.s.s.- simple way to proof my words, tell me which heroes are now currently most in use, maybe shugoki? maybe kenshi? or maybe people play rider with conqueror \ valk? NO DUDE, ABSOLUTLY DAMN NO. 90% of time you will see orochi\pk\nobushi\berserker. guess why? they have nice design and looks cool? hell no. People take them by a simple reason- because they are stronger than any other class and its so easy to spam attacks in different stances.
And i cant understand all the likes you got here just because you wrote hell of a text which just describing a little bit class just like in any other game like: " Warrior - a melee class that uses sword and shield in a battlefield. Best way to defeat your enemy is move close as you can to him and use shield to block his attacks, and when he least expects it you strike with your sword dealing massive damage to your foe."

Welp. I admit PK is fairly strong for the mix ups she can do. but wont agree with the spam which is blockable/parry able which will drain her stam and gives you a free gb with free dmg while assissin have little hp.
I almost never play vs nobushi/berserker/pk/orochi. Berserker is not a real good class in high level, never seen a real good berserker even tho he has good feints. Orochi can be countered by having a stable defense and being good a cgb, leaves little options for him. Sure Orochi is a noob crusher but higher he isnt. As for nobushi wouldnt know lol never play against one in duels

Welp this all from personal experience :/

Braegulfer
02-17-2017, 07:48 PM
Bump

Maaci
02-17-2017, 11:06 PM
As iam aware of, the only class specific mixup he have is when he is doing his 3hit-chain-combo. Can you explain to me what other mixup he have.

DovahkiinSuleyk
02-17-2017, 11:45 PM
The amount of hate I've seen towards the Shugoki today has been insane and I'm beginning to get tired of trying to explain why he isn't OP. Saying he has no solid counter? Except every assassin class? Orochi in particular can wreck him. Warden is also pretty good against him. I'm just gonna copy paste what I said in another thread (this is the 4th time today I think):

"I see so many people complaining about this ability and I feel I need to point out some stuff.

The Pros of Demon's Embrace
- It heals us and does a nice amount of damage
- If at critical health it will one shot anyone

The Cons of Demon's Embrace
-It's one of the most telegraphed moves in the game
-It's EXTREMELY easy to dodge
-If we miss with it we damage ourselves for a 3rd of our HP bar
-If we miss with it, in addition to damaging us, it takes a moment for us to be able to do anything again and leaves us open to attack.

The cons outweigh the pros, the ability is not as overpowered as people think it is and is quite well balanced. And the fact that people are beginning to wise up to it is making it increasingly difficult to land. If you do get hit by it it's on you.

As for other things that people have mentioned being OP, like uninterruptible stance, that also isn't as OP as you might think. Uninterruptible stance only lasts until we get hit once, with a light or heavy attack and then it has to recharge. After uninterruptible stance is broken we actually take increased damage, this is where the heal from Demon's Embrace comes into play, to deal with the increased damage we take and keep us in the fight. He doesn't have a large moveset so he can be fairly predictable and he runs out of stamina super quick

All in all what I'm saying is the Shugoki is actually a pretty well balanced character and if anyone thinks he is broken or OP it's because they don't fully understand how he works. I'd recommend playing him and I'm willing to bed you'd change your tune quite quickly."

I'm also going to add, yes, he does a lot of damage. That's to compensate for how ridiculously slow he is at everything. He is literally described in the heroes screen as a Hard Hitter so this shouldn't be a surprise. Being able to hit hard does not equal overpowered.

Scr4pMan
02-20-2017, 11:12 PM
I'm a Ghugoki/Kensei main myself. I agree there are allot of cons and just some pro's to the shugoki. Though the pro's are powerfull.

The saying I like to ad to that is basicly. '' A shugoki is hella scary. But... a foolish shugoki should be equally as scared of himself.''

Making a mistake as shugoki especially the demon hug charge can be a death sentance. Kind of depending on what your up againts ofcourse.

For the less immobile classes my tip would be to roll away from it. It blocks the charge, true you will lose some stamina. But the Shugoki loses a great portion of it's HP. Another way is to hidden stance it as a Nobushi or even dodge attack it as certain assasins.

Now I think the big issue some have with it is the combination with his passive ofcourse. That is the trick againts him. How do you get that of, of him? Well... A carefull slug fest or attack might do it. Again it's verry telegraphed and has a wind up. Depending on your char some have really quick attacks and little rcover time after it to do so. It's risky. But ones it's of. It's ham time.

Still a good shugoki wouldn't just waste it and instead might go for a guard break or a heavy attack/light. Wich can lead into a headbud. True you get knocked back and lose allot of stam. But instead of the hug it is something that you should be able to deal with.

Still his attacks are slow and if you are prepared for it, he wont guardbreak your or you might even get a nice parry of.

He's predictable. But what is it he's going to do?

Now my advice of characters to use againts him are those that use bleed like Nobushi and Peacekeeper. Orochi is also really good and even Kensei. These classes have ways to even stop him with his passive and charge in their light combo's. They have dodges or hidden stance againts it. If it comes to a slug fest. Just be carefull of his guard breaks and you should be in generall fine. Also warden shoulder bash spam.... With vortex cancell mixup is. A death sentance for him. Unfortunetly. He's to fat to really dodge well and rolling back for him will mean a loss of stamina or all of it.

Again for the slower classes it'l be a bit tougher. Use either your range or roll againts his hug. In a slug fest you still should have somewhat of an upper hand. It's only again the guard break. Besides that his passive can be broken by range or a guardbreak still works and gets rid of it and a free whatever you use. You lose stam. But... The shugoki does aswell. That or health.

If a shugoki makes a mistake or makes an easy attack. Capatalise and keep up the pressure were you think it is still in your favor. Just keep the passive in mind and that you can roll dodge/dodge.

Braegulfer
02-20-2017, 11:21 PM
The amount of hate I've seen towards the Shugoki today has been insane and I'm beginning to get tired of trying to explain why he isn't OP. Saying he has no solid counter? Except every assassin class? Orochi in particular can wreck him. Warden is also pretty good against him. I'm just gonna copy paste what I said in another thread (this is the 4th time today I think):

"I see so many people complaining about this ability and I feel I need to point out some stuff.

The Pros of Demon's Embrace
- It heals us and does a nice amount of damage
- If at critical health it will one shot anyone

The Cons of Demon's Embrace
-It's one of the most telegraphed moves in the game
-It's EXTREMELY easy to dodge
-If we miss with it we damage ourselves for a 3rd of our HP bar
-If we miss with it, in addition to damaging us, it takes a moment for us to be able to do anything again and leaves us open to attack.

The cons outweigh the pros, the ability is not as overpowered as people think it is and is quite well balanced. And the fact that people are beginning to wise up to it is making it increasingly difficult to land. If you do get hit by it it's on you.

As for other things that people have mentioned being OP, like uninterruptible stance, that also isn't as OP as you might think. Uninterruptible stance only lasts until we get hit once, with a light or heavy attack and then it has to recharge. After uninterruptible stance is broken we actually take increased damage, this is where the heal from Demon's Embrace comes into play, to deal with the increased damage we take and keep us in the fight. He doesn't have a large moveset so he can be fairly predictable and he runs out of stamina super quick

All in all what I'm saying is the Shugoki is actually a pretty well balanced character and if anyone thinks he is broken or OP it's because they don't fully understand how he works. I'd recommend playing him and I'm willing to bed you'd change your tune quite quickly."

I'm also going to add, yes, he does a lot of damage. That's to compensate for how ridiculously slow he is at everything. He is literally described in the heroes screen as a Hard Hitter so this shouldn't be a surprise. Being able to hit hard does not equal overpowered.

I totally agree. The telegraph on this thing is insane, and I think i've only been hit by it once...ever. I get into more trouble against Shugoki's by making bad trades against good Shugoki's who know how and when to manage damage trades.

Scr4pMan
02-20-2017, 11:21 PM
Besides that. I hoped to get some tips vs some matchups for the Shugoki if any of you is great at the character you play.

The warden: Now the warden match up is generally okay. Yet againts good wardens or just those that know how to pull of the combo is that a shoulder bash chain, overheald light attacks are to be devestating vs Shugoki. Not only that mix it up with vortex tracing and guardbreak. It is a hell. You are to fat to really dodge well to the side and the timing is really small to do so. To the back can happen if the warden does have a little bit of spacing between you and him. Though if up close you will not make it.

As for rolling, stamina is everything to a Shugoki. It can be a death sentance. The warden shoulder bash feels like a kidnapping to follow up to be forced upon. Find your oppertunity and it has a little chance to get out of. This is ofcourse when the warden gets close. So room in error is none. Getting parried is one that leads to this most of the time.


Peacekeeper Now I don't have to much issue in generall againts assasins to be fair, odly enough. Still I think I want to mention her. I'm finding it hard at times to really get a good set of blocks of from her light attacks. Let alone dare to parry them when she gets close and my passive is popped. I hope to get a tip on that besides the '' oh practice makes better.'' Yeah I get that already.

Nobushi: Again a character I don't have to much of an issue with by the many times I have versed her as the assasins. It's just the generall oh I wanna hug ya but she hidden stance stuf. It feels ods. Like she strikes a pose and blinds me as I grovel and puke out the blood from my organs asking for a stab. Really great Nobushi's know of this and it is only a time before the rest. I wonder if there are ways of luring her away from the massive amounds of poke into a hit of mine?

Your thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

Anubis9
02-20-2017, 11:25 PM
See you write all that but ignore the FACT the game runs on peer 2 peer with major input lag a frame rate issues along with LAG.

So people are moaning due to the the game being unbalanced due to these massive issues.

Game needs dedicated servers for it to even stand a chance, also putting up your revenge in your stat makes it easy to spam this and kill people.