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View Full Version : Hot to play against defensive players?



AKosse1996
02-16-2017, 01:48 PM
Hi guys
One question is bothering me more and more since i play every day more and more against this type of player ( and i get why) so here is my concern:

How to play against players who are not attacking at all and waiting until you start an attack since you are vulnurable when you attack? Because the in-game way to deal with a person who is always just guarding is to gurad-break. i mean this is what this move is made for after all. But since good player, especially with the new release version of the guard break, where you have to time later then earlier, good players will be counter-guard break every single guard break as long they dont sleep, you can even hit them by surprise with canceling a heavy attack to guard break or so, and it will still make no difference since the window to counter guard break is to big, after to trained how to counter guard break a bit.
so yeah, i dont see the use of the guard break at all as long you are not playing against unexperienced player who dont know the timing of the counter guard break perfectly.

of course their are to unblockable attacks, but first of all are they not to hard to parry, but since every charakter has different attack patterns, it takes more time to learn how to parry them perfectly then to learn how to counter guard break perfectly since you have the same window for every hero. And not every one has the ability to make unblockable attacks either.

So you just have the chance to spam your light attacks and hope that the reflexes of your enemy are not good enough to block them or that he starts an attack himself so that you can hit them. And this leads to a very boring duels in my opinion. Because so often today i found myself playing against an warden for example who was doing...nothing. he just waits until i attack and fail on his blocks and then he starts counterattacking and get me out of stamina. And if i stay defensive to...then nothing happens at all.

Is their a way in the current version of the game, how to play against this type of defensive player? its not that i am saying that i loose all my games that is not the case. But in compare to the beta, where my opponents and i were beginners and so their where so many different possible playstyles, since the guard break was stronger and heavy attacks could sometimes land etc., the new way of playing duels is so...static. The better i get, and the better my opponents are, the more defensive are they playing and i dont see a way to deal with it in an gameplay-interesting way, other then spamming lightattacks anf hope that my opponent fail.

i rly think that they have to change the guard break so it will become an threat to over defensive players again, or maybe you guys have a solution to my problem.

i am looking forward to the tipps you can give me :)

Myrnodyne
02-16-2017, 02:12 PM
I'm in no way very good at the game yet, but, when playing against defensive opponents I have a couple of options I use.

!: Forward dodge. Forward dodge is something everyone can do to quickly close distance without giving up too much defensive advantage. Forward dodge into guardbreak can sometimes even take more experienced players off guard, forward dodge into light mix-up into heavy damage confirm is definitely viable for some characters. If you like to play assassins, I can tell you that defensive players will almost ALWAYS expect an overhead slash as primary engage, since it's the largest engagement range Assassins have.

2: For the times you are NOT dueling there is some simple solutions, like using feats you earned earlier without fear of a punish, or just running away to help your teammates if your opponent is not interested in fighting anyway ;)

3: learn how to feint heavy attacks. On the Xbox controller it's the B button. you press it right after initiating a heavy attack and it will cancel that attack. Some classes can even cancel their heavies into other moves. Look through your moveset to see what your options are.

4: different characters have different ranges, make sure you stay at a range YOUR character is more comfortable with than your opponent.


Hope these tips help.

AKosse1996
02-16-2017, 02:24 PM
The Problem that i have is, that if the opponent is trained enough in counter gurad breaking, where i have seen more and more opponents, then it doesnt matter if you hit them by surprise with dodging forward, and it does not matter so much at which distance you stay since no of your attacks come trought. If i play a 4v4 mode then yes, in this situaions i just run away, but in a 1v1 duel i dont know how to deal with this kind of playstyle. :(

Brave_Thunder
02-16-2017, 02:30 PM
A tactic that I use against defensive player is to faint a dash attack into gb,usually this opens them to more damage or they actually start to attack.If this fails,then alternate light hits with faint heavyes,they will lose the focus to conter gb properly.

ast3lan
02-16-2017, 02:38 PM
I play Lawbringer and i see no issue with defensive play.. in fact for some classes it is a must.
So far all i saw from your post is guardbreak,,, what about, parrys and dodges? Because if i can kill people with this slow guy, even his unblockable is slow and i've landed quite a few of those yesteday, i can't follow you on your concern about defensive play.

Played the Orochi ( which is a completely playstyle) and had no issues either with defensive playstyles... perhaps you should broaden your fight repertoire to something more than just guardbreak and light attack spam...

ast3lan
02-16-2017, 02:49 PM
I think you never fought someone truly playing defensive. Rarely anyone does. Someone who only reacts to your actions is almost unbeatable if he has good reflexes.

I have... i had a Shugoki player in my team yesterday that was so defensive that on 3v1 or 2v1 he would just stand and look us getting ganked until they came to him.

Boudusei
02-16-2017, 03:04 PM
I fully agree, if someone pays close attention to counter guard breaking and blocking he simply can't die. This game is way too much in favor of defensive play it's ******ed.

If it stays like this the game is just doomed

Robbeeeen
02-16-2017, 03:06 PM
Hi guys
One question is bothering me more and more since i play every day more and more against this type of player ( and i get why) so here is my concern:

How to play against players who are not attacking at all and waiting until you start an attack since you are vulnurable when you attack? Because the in-game way to deal with a person who is always just guarding is to gurad-break. i mean this is what this move is made for after all. But since good player, especially with the new release version of the guard break, where you have to time later then earlier, good players will be counter-guard break every single guard break as long they dont sleep, you can even hit them by surprise with canceling a heavy attack to guard break or so, and it will still make no difference since the window to counter guard break is to big, after to trained how to counter guard break a bit.
so yeah, i dont see the use of the guard break at all as long you are not playing against unexperienced player who dont know the timing of the counter guard break perfectly.

of course their are to unblockable attacks, but first of all are they not to hard to parry, but since every charakter has different attack patterns, it takes more time to learn how to parry them perfectly then to learn how to counter guard break perfectly since you have the same window for every hero. And not every one has the ability to make unblockable attacks either.

So you just have the chance to spam your light attacks and hope that the reflexes of your enemy are not good enough to block them or that he starts an attack himself so that you can hit them. And this leads to a very boring duels in my opinion. Because so often today i found myself playing against an warden for example who was doing...nothing. he just waits until i attack and fail on his blocks and then he starts counterattacking and get me out of stamina. And if i stay defensive to...then nothing happens at all.

Is their a way in the current version of the game, how to play against this type of defensive player? its not that i am saying that i loose all my games that is not the case. But in compare to the beta, where my opponents and i were beginners and so their where so many different possible playstyles, since the guard break was stronger and heavy attacks could sometimes land etc., the new way of playing duels is so...static. The better i get, and the better my opponents are, the more defensive are they playing and i dont see a way to deal with it in an gameplay-interesting way, other then spamming lightattacks anf hope that my opponent fail.

i rly think that they have to change the guard break so it will become an threat to over defensive players again, or maybe you guys have a solution to my problem.

i am looking forward to the tipps you can give me :)



There is not much you can do. The game only offer so many options. There are a number of threads already open in both the Combat and Feedback sections of the forum that talk about this issue - unfortunately many refuse to see it, possibly because its tough to admit that you can be invulnerable if you are defending well in this game while they themselves are getting destroyed by GBs and PKs and Orochis light-attacks.


Your best bet right now is to play Warden. His top-light attack and zone attack are extremely fast to the point where parrying them is very difficult, so they are somewhat safe. Also his shoulder-charge is a good mixup and hard to punish because it is cancellable into GB and somewhat hard to dodge if you dash into them and they are watching out for your zone-attack. People started figuring out that blocking his zoneattack and guardbreaking while pressing W leads into an uncounterable GB though, so even he is getting less and less safe to be offensive with.

So you're not doing anything wrong, neither are you the only one with this issue. Defending in this game is both low risk and high reward and needs to be adjusted. All we can do is wait until more people get better at the game and see the issue as clearly as we do and start rioting on the forums until the devs make a few simple changes that can fix this issue.

AKosse1996
02-16-2017, 03:07 PM
I play Lawbringer and i see no issue with defensive play.. in fact for some classes it is a must.
So far all i saw from your post is guardbreak,,, what about, parrys and dodges? Because if i can kill people with this slow guy, even his unblockable is slow and i've landed quite a few of those yesteday, i can't follow you on your concern about defensive play.

Played the Orochi ( which is a completely playstyle) and had no issues either with defensive playstyles... perhaps you should broaden your fight repertoire to something more than just guardbreak and light attack spam...

I think as a lawbringer you have the least problems against defencive players in my opinion cause you have a variety of unblockable attacks, but as already was said: for players who play heros that have no unblockable attack their is simply no game mechanik how you can punish a defensive player for beeing defensive. if he is decend with his parrys he can only stand their, making nothing, wait until you attack him with a slow attack that he know he can parry, and than land an guaranteed hit. In a 4v4 this is not a true problem as you sayed since you can just run away, fight the others first and use special abilities to break him last, but in 1v1 this tactic is unbalanced since the defender (if his reflexes are good enough) are always on a huge advantage and if he is not attacking you cant parry of dodge. So if he is defencive but sometimes came out of it, its ok since you just have to make good use of the times when he is attacking with parrying and stuff, but if he rly is just sitting of defence their is nothing what you can do. And what concerns me way more than this tactic is too good, is that since you cant attack very well the gameplay is very boring. i get many matches recently where me and my oponent are just staying in front of each other and waiting for the other player to do something. And as you can expect it is a really frustrating experience.

Gojema
02-16-2017, 03:46 PM
Light attacks are the answer. Quick light attacks from different directions get sometimes through, even at highest level. And once a player can't stay purely defensive the whole chain of gb>dodge>attack>feint>parry>heavy etc. with all the different skills from different classes unfolds.

Fighting games are generally far more "defensive" than RPGs. 2 guys starring at each other to find an opening is the general case. But that doesn't mean the game is flawed in any way.

Yes, in For Honor a cheating bot could counter EVERYTHING. But humans aren't cheating bots and the games I watched from highlevel streamers aren't defensive at all. So I'm confident this is not a real problem.


btw. the unblockables from Lawbringer don't help against defensive players. They are all parts of a chain and easily parry/dodgeable.

Robbeeeen
02-16-2017, 04:23 PM
Light attacks are the answer. Quick light attacks from different directions get sometimes through, even at highest level. And once a player can't stay purely defensive the whole chain of gb>dodge>attack>feint>parry>heavy etc. with all the different skills from different classes unfolds.



No, they're not.

Yes, they get through sometimes. They get parried just as much as they get through though. And that's the big problem - you get a bit of damage in from a light-attack, you use stamina and you risk getting parried. You get parried, you lose almost all of your stamina, your opponent is guaranteed a GB into whatever combo his class offers and you either lose then and there if you're near a ledge or you lose a big chunk of health.

Yes, sometimes even the best human defender will get hit against certain classes. But its not worth the risk. Even if you hit him twice as often as he parries, the defender still comes out on top.

In fact, the most successful playstyle is not even trying to parry every hit. Block most of them, parry every once in a while. Let your revenge meter fill up. Let the enemy waste stamina on feints.

There is NO punishment for defending. None.
Attacking costs stamina. Attacking opens you up for being on the receiving end of the strongest move in the game. High risk, low reward. Has a punishing resource-cap.
Defending fills your revenge meter. Defending gives you the ability to execute the strongest move in the game. Low risk, high reward. Can be used indefinitely without punishment.

I do not understand why they had to give the defending players the best move in the game, when the stamina resource already puts a cap on how much an attacking player can do without giving the other player a turn to do the same.