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View Full Version : Here is the proof you need that absolute defense breaks the game



abkfjk
02-15-2017, 02:06 AM
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322

To be clear: I love this game. I think it has grasped my love for fighting games, and I continue to play it. However, I want this issue to be clearly addressed and the conversation focused on the inherit issue. Defense has clear advantage.

Here a warden plays completely defensively, even going so far as to not counter-attacking even though he could have therefore stalling the game out. The warden has plenty of opportunities to counter-attack but does not. This causes the Orochi to constantly go for feints, guard breaks, mix ups, etc. Ultimately this becomes useless as the warden simply has to focus on defense to avoid any damage.

The 1v1 game (and 2v2) has a fundemental flaw which is that if an opponent chooses to do so, they can use defense 100% of the time, and take no damage. We end up with a game where aggression is punished, and defense is rewarded. We need a balance. Most fighting games look for a fair balance between the two. But here we end up with a lopsided strategy.

nestharus
02-15-2017, 02:09 AM
That is dumb because the Warden has abilities that let him attack without risk... why is that person playing Warden ???

abkfjk
02-15-2017, 02:14 AM
The warden wanted to demonstrate that focusing on only defense causes a complete stalemate. It didn't really matter that he played warden. This isn't a hero balance issue. This is a game mechanics issue.

l_Azure_l
02-15-2017, 02:45 AM
Yeah, at first this game mechanic seems balance because most people can't react to all those attacks, feint and GB in time but for awhile people will get use to it and if someone plays total defense there isn't much you can do. Most of the time it will be like who attacks first loses.

trikster77
02-15-2017, 03:04 AM
You hit hit him when he tried to attack so I do not see an issue. Two players that are actually fighting to win should find an opening in each others attacks just like you did in the vid. If you just want to sit and block the entire game it defeats the entire purpose of winning.

abkfjk
02-15-2017, 03:07 AM
I'm afraid you are missing the point. If the warden decided to parry/counter-attack he would win every time. But for demonstration purposes he never attacked. The point is, it makes no sense to attack first since you can't break someone's guard anyways. It's better to wait for the other person to attack, then counter-attack. Right now high-skill players are literally ending up in constant staring games/attempts to feint/guard breaks (which in return are countered with counter-guard breaks). This is unhealthy for the game because it reinforces players to not be aggressive.

THEPH0NECOMPANY
02-15-2017, 04:51 AM
Working as intended

Fezzul
02-15-2017, 05:13 AM
I'm not saying defense doesn't have an advantage but it's not as easy as everyone is making it out to be on the forums. In the video the Orochi hardly uses his doge attack, i think never uses zone attack, and towards the end when the other guy tries to parry he falls for feints that are not taken advantage of. If he wanted to be lame and just block and guard break counter the whole round he could probably do that and force a tie or he could lose from chip damage if the devs every decide to give victories to the person with the most health.

CaptainPwnet
02-15-2017, 07:06 AM
I'm not saying defense doesn't have an advantage but it's not as easy as everyone is making it out to be on the forums. In the video the Orochi hardly uses his doge attack, i think never uses zone attack, and towards the end when the other guy tries to parry he falls for feints that are not taken advantage of. If he wanted to be lame and just block and guard break counter the whole round he could probably do that and force a tie or he could lose from chip damage if the devs every decide to give victories to the person with the most health.

No, he could have parried which grants guaranteed damage. There is no reason to attack a skilled player in 1v1 because when you attack you risk being parried which again, grants free guaranteed damage.

Juuudass
02-15-2017, 07:34 AM
the only thing that i see there is you faking over and over and burning your stamina down. I dont see any zone attack that is superfast while baiting the opposite side starting with a heavy and i dont see any fast attack from u after a fake on the other side.

Its not the game u have really fast attacks and u are not even using them.

feuerundblut
02-15-2017, 08:37 AM
Why is it a flaw exactly? To me, it just works as intended. It's not tekken we are playing here. It's a sword fighting game in which good defense is rewarded, which is a good change compared to most other games in the market.

And unless it's a machine, there will be some times he won't be so precise in blocking anyway. Patience is required for this game I guess.

Gin_n_Limecay
02-15-2017, 09:10 AM
I could link to the same video you just posted, of you opening him up like 20 times. having the life lead the whole time. making the point that if he hit a button he'd do more damage, then immediately whiffing a heavy mistiming a parry... Don't even think its worth mentioning all the stuff you weren't trying yet, learn the characters a little more and you're dipping your toes into what fighting game meta is stick with it lol

Akyohiro
02-15-2017, 09:20 AM
Working as intended

Yup I think so too

SpazzMaticuz
02-15-2017, 10:05 AM
That is dumb because the Warden has abilities that let him attack without risk... why is that person playing Warden ???

Are you new? Warden kick ***.

Blankhere
02-15-2017, 12:09 PM
I love that warden, I played orochi players all day at release and they did this over and over. Hit and run constantly, just spend all your fast light attacks and soon as you get hit once run. People are playing that class so they don't have to learn anything in the game. I only watched this vid for the first 2 mins and orochi never guard breaks, just goes to show how limited they want to play. Attack and run only 2 abilities and they make a forum post that the game is flawed. XD

Icepick_Trotsky
02-15-2017, 01:05 PM
I love that warden, I played orochi players all day at release and they did this over and over. Hit and run constantly, just spend all your fast light attacks and soon as you get hit once run. People are playing that class so they don't have to learn anything in the game. I only watched this vid for the first 2 mins and orochi never guard breaks, just goes to show how limited they want to play. Attack and run only 2 abilities and they make a forum post that the game is flawed. XD
The **** are you talking about? He tried GB 5 times in those 2 miniutes.

To all those saying he didnt use all atacks - so what? in 3 minutes he managed to slip what, 2 light atacks? what would it change if he used 2 more mix ups? slip 2 more light atacks? Still he would need at least 5 minutes to kill this Warden. Now how much time do you think this fight would last if Warden parried and counteratacked? 1 minute?

Problem is, this is not super high skill level if anyone can reach it after 2 betas and alpha, which is what? 10 days in total? It would be whole different story if you needed Korean pro-gamer level of skill to do that. But you dont. Imagine this game a month from now, or 2 months. There will be hundreds of people like this.

CrusadingNoble
02-15-2017, 01:22 PM
I think it takes a lot of skill to play like this in an actual duel constantly. If someone can make their defense impenetrable, then IMO they desrvet he win.

"Hence that general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack."

By defending superbly you increase the chance the enemy will become more rash and overextend. A guaranteed guardbreak will lead to a game of rocket tag where people will try to get one off, mash atacks, jump back and wait to do it again.

Countering guardbreaks when they are mixed up with shoves/dashes/attacks/feints is hard work, in reality you will get guard broken even if you're a defensive god. my two cents.

DerHerbman
02-15-2017, 01:22 PM
You see that the warden get damage when he blocks right? Nothing wrong here. When you focus on blocking of course he can block 100%. But he also looses energy. What is your suggestion though? Get killed while blocking?
When warden tried to Parry or counter attack he would open himself for attacks, so it would be a fight! Orochi fints-> warden parry missed-> orochi hits...

BTW whats your W/L ratio? If your suggestion is right it should be extreme high! ;)

Wrander
02-15-2017, 01:29 PM
Working as intendedMaybe, but that Intention dosn't work. At the end of the Beta I had the same issue. It's not that hard to learn to react to everything and i saw a lot of people who could defend themselv against pretty much everything. In addition everyone could parry and assassins also can dodge and counterattack.

Everytime I fight someone like that I got the feeling that whoever attacks gets damage. And the one who dosn't attacks wins. And many people got atleast close to that point where they could block/counter nearly everything on reaction. What happens in weeks, months a year after release?

Offense should be the best defense to keep your opponent from attacking you while defense should be a fight at disadvantage where you try to get your momentum back. Sadly atm defense is the best offense and there is no dynamic fight.

Obdach01
02-15-2017, 01:31 PM
I have no idea why blocking is concidered bad? Even in real fights, there is one who is better than the other. And blocking is completely valid. And if it's 2v2, and both wardens just defend, well, attack one warden as a 2 man group. Let's see if he survives that one. Sooner or later one of them has to attack or they both loose the round. I am not the best player, as i am pretty old and my hand-eye coordination is pretty bad. I used to be good when i weas younger. Still I play this game with my friends... some of which are much younger and/or much better than me. I defend then. I block, I dodge, I back off and wait for a mistake to take advantage of. Most of the times i loose, because they are simply better, but when I win, it's a freaking party in the room. I am proud and happy.
Why should only offense be viable? There is no reason for it... especially not in real life. Defense always helps, even in real life, but is slow. And if you are a perfect defender, why shouldn't you be rewarded, even if it's just a tie? To me a tie against TerryC (my gaming buddy) feels like a damn win.

LordKaterchen
02-15-2017, 01:44 PM
I'm afraid you are missing the point. If the warden decided to parry/counter-attack he would win every time. But for demonstration purposes he never attacked. The point is, it makes no sense to attack first since you can't break someone's guard anyways. It's better to wait for the other person to attack, then counter-attack. Right now high-skill players are literally ending up in constant staring games/attempts to feint/guard breaks (which in return are countered with counter-guard breaks). This is unhealthy for the game because it reinforces players to not be aggressive.

Before I respond let me agree, that focusing on pure defense for stalling should not be as effective (I also find myself unable to hurt good players who focus on defense purely).
I also agree with the much bigger problem of Defense being at a major advantage even if you want to win instead of just stallling.

However I disagree that the warden would have just needed to decide for parry/counter-attack instead of blocking. This is what actually makes feinting useful and opens a weakness if the opponent attempts to get some damage in by parrying first. Block is much safer than parry but cannot be capitalized on.
Since heavy attacks do chip damage on block you could alleviate some of the proplem by giving the win to the player with more hp% left at the end of the round.

I don't find the system so much 'broken' as rather 'unengaging' on high level of play. I think that risk-reward is badly skewed against offense and for defense and I would very much like the devs to rebalance some numbers/frames/timings to rebalance the risk-reward between offense and defense. I think just tiny adjustments of a few frames here and there could already fix most of this problem.

Wrander
02-15-2017, 01:47 PM
I have no idea why blocking is concidered bad? Even in real fights, there is one who is better than the other. And blocking is completely valid. And if it's 2v2, and both wardens just defend, well, attack one warden as a 2 man group. Let's see if he survives that one. Sooner or later one of them has to attack or they both loose the round. I am not the best player, as i am pretty old and my hand-eye coordination is pretty bad. I used to be good when i weas younger. Still I play this game with my friends... some of which are much younger and/or much better than me. I defend then. I block, I dodge, I back off and wait for a mistake to take advantage of. Most of the times i loose, because they are simply better, but when I win, it's a freaking party in the room. I am proud and happy.
Why should only offense be viable? There is no reason for it... especially not in real life. Defense always helps, even in real life, but is slow. And if you are a perfect defender, why shouldn't you be rewarded, even if it's just a tie? To me a tie against TerryC (my gaming buddy) feels like a damn win.
We aren't complaining because we loose to better players. We are complaining because we have the feeling that just defending is too strong and there is no reason for a good player to attack the other one. Like you said you wait for enemies mistake and thats exactly the problem. Waiting for enemies mistake, which can be a single light attack you can parry and punish, is in my opinion too strong. At the end of the beta many people were already good enough to pull it off. And im sure that in weeks and months many more people will even do it much better. From maybe my own 90% they get to 99% success rate in defending against anything.

CrusadingNoble
02-15-2017, 02:13 PM
We aren't complaining because we loose to better players. We are complaining because we have the feeling that just defending is too strong and there is no reason for a good player to attack the other one. Like you said you wait for enemies mistake and thats exactly the problem. Waiting for enemies mistake, which can be a single light attack you can parry and punish, is in my opinion too strong. At the end of the beta many people were already good enough to pull it off. And im sure that in weeks and months many more people will even do it much better. From maybe my own 90% they get to 99% success rate in defending against anything.

This is what you would do in a real fight too, unles you severely outclass your opponent.

What the game could use is perhaps a slow and risky trip attack that if landed would allow you to get in a guaranteed top heavy. You miss the trip attack and you stumble off balance, allowing the enemy to do his own top heavy. Something like that?

Icepick_Trotsky
02-15-2017, 02:16 PM
Why should only offense be viable? There is no reason for it... especially not in real life. Defense always helps, even in real life, but is slow.

No reason? how about a common sense? Please explain how defense is supposed to be viable strategy. Can you win a real fight with defense? No, you can't. And you can't have perfect defense either.

Obdach01
02-15-2017, 03:32 PM
No reason? how about a common sense? Please explain how defense is supposed to be viable strategy. Can you win a real fight with defense? No, you can't. And you can't have perfect defense either.

Looking at History, most wars were won by the defenders and not the attacker (most, not all). When you do Martial Arts, you are taught that the best offense is defense. When you read 'The Art of War' you will find out, that the best way to win a war (or fight) is a surprise or well prepared defense.

I am not proud to say, that I took part in two wars, but also have no shame in saying that I also was trained in Martial Arts. That is what I learned... but maybe in other places I would've been taught that offense is the best offense... I don't know. Common sense is strategy, and strategy tells you that defending is more effective than attacking in most cases, save a few exceptions.

I rest my case.

Robbeeeen
02-15-2017, 03:35 PM
Who cares what is viable in "real life" - this is a game, and when enough people get a bit better and catch on that not attacking and waiting for a parry is the best strategy, it will turn into people circling eachother doing nothing. Are you gonna play a game like that?

GregoryMcFlint
02-15-2017, 03:38 PM
Looking at History, most wars were won by the defenders and not the attacker (most, not all). When you do Martial Arts, you are taught that the best offense is defense. When you read 'The Art of War' you will find out, that the best way to win a war (or fight) is a surprise or well prepared defense.

I am not proud to say, that I took part in two wars, but also have no shame in saying that I also was trained in Martial Arts. That is what I learned... but maybe in other places I would've been taught that offense is the best offense... I don't know. Common sense is strategy, and strategy tells you that defending is more effective than attacking in most cases, save a few exceptions.

I rest my case.

This isn't World War LXIX, it's a fighting game, lol.

Fighting games, "looking at history," have a middle ground between being offensive and defensive. A fighting game without an even playing field for both styles of play becomes extremely one-sided. Which is exactly what happened to For Honor.

Using war as an example for how a fighting game should function, that takes a vast majority of its concepts from 2D fighters, makes absolutely zero sense.

I rest my case. ;)

Obdach01
02-15-2017, 03:39 PM
Who cares what is viable in "real life" - this is a game, and when enough people get a bit better and catch on that not attacking and waiting for a parry is the best strategy, it will turn into people circling eachother doing nothing. Are you gonna play a game like that?

Sorry, mate. I wasn't trying to be couterproductive. I was just answering what the reason is for defense to be viable and what common sense dictates. Sure it could kill a game to go full realistic, I agree with you here. For me, defense is the only way to be able to win one or two rounds, since I am not that good (due to old age). But please, do not kill a game because a man is old... given that defense actually kills the game, if that is your opinion.

Obdach01
02-15-2017, 03:40 PM
This isn't World War LXIX, it's a fighting game, lol.

Fighting games "looking at history" have a middle ground between being offensive and defensive. A fighting game without an even playing field for both styles of play becomes extremely one-sided. Which is exactly what happened to For Honor.

Using war as an example for how a fighting game that takes a vast majority of its concepts from 2D fighters, makes absolutely zero sense.

Sorry again, dude. I wasn't referring to the game, but to the 'common sense' thing. Common sense dictates that defense is better. I know it's a game. This comment wasn't directed at the game. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Let's keep the discussion civil.

If you read the comment I quoted, you will see the 'real life' question. If he referres to real life, I should be able to use real life, shouldn't i?

Knight_Raime
02-15-2017, 04:14 PM
I've already posted my suggestions in the 2 other threads about this. Haven't gotten any feedback on them sadly. To be honest this is only an issue in high tier play where everyone can parry when they want ant tech a GB when they want. The worry here is that if the mechanics stay the same will enough people catch up to make it a problem for the fanbase? or will it be too hard for a majority of players to get to that level?

If the latter happens the game will still be fun for most. But the competitive side might drop off. if the former happens it might push the devs to make some changes. but it would drag the game down and some games don't recover after that even if they do massive changes that make it better (like what happened with the division.) I don't care what path the game takes. as long as the changes come eventually and the population stays big enough.

OIUHD
02-15-2017, 04:16 PM
I think if the Attacker used a different class it might be a different story. Orochi excels when their opponent is attacking.

Icepick_Trotsky
02-15-2017, 05:09 PM
Looking at History, most wars were won by the defenders and not the attacker (most, not all). When you do Martial Arts, you are taught that the best offense is defense. When you read 'The Art of War' you will find out, that the best way to win a war (or fight) is a surprise or well prepared defense.

I am not proud to say, that I took part in two wars, but also have no shame in saying that I also was trained in Martial Arts. That is what I learned... but maybe in other places I would've been taught that offense is the best offense... I don't know. Common sense is strategy, and strategy tells you that defending is more effective than attacking in most cases, save a few exceptions.

I rest my case.
Are you seriously comparing a war - a fight between two armies - with one on one combat? That is utter nonesens.

Please, explain how is defending more effecttive. Where does defense get you? What do you achieve by it?

GregoryMcFlint
02-15-2017, 05:29 PM
Sorry again, dude. I wasn't referring to the game, but to the 'common sense' thing. Common sense dictates that defense is better. I know it's a game. This comment wasn't directed at the game. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Let's keep the discussion civil.

If you read the comment I quoted, you will see the 'real life' question. If he referres to real life, I should be able to use real life, shouldn't i?

No one cares about real life in a 2D fighting game. People DO NOT play fighters expecting real life scenarios.

I'm sorry, but there are better places to be absent minded, like Reddit. :o

jaypham21
02-15-2017, 06:44 PM
However I disagree that the warden would have just needed to decide for parry/counter-attack instead of blocking. This is what actually makes feinting useful and opens a weakness if the opponent attempts to get some damage in by parrying first. Block is much safer than parry but cannot be capitalized on.
Since heavy attacks do chip damage on block you could alleviate some of the proplem by giving the win to the player with more hp% left at the end of the round.


I understand where you're coming from. But tonight I'm going to record my session of me playing different LVL 3 BOTS with me using "low-tier" heroes like kensei/ Shugoki/ etc vs faster characters and I'll show the going full defense + relying on parry for damage (guaranteed punish + safety) can lead you to a win without ever being touched. After a bit of knowledge on certain character animations, Feints become very recognizable vs real committed attacks. This is VERY worrisome and I pray that Ubisoft does something

So far I've done Shugoki vs lvl 3 BOT zerker / Valk vs lvl 3 BOT PK / and Orochi vs lvl 3 BOT Warden. I just parry + attack and stay untouched. The BOTs Also feint a good amount as well even feint mid-combo and feint->GB. Still too obvious

TheLawbring3r
02-15-2017, 07:06 PM
Are you seriously comparing a war - a fight between two armies - with one on one combat? That is utter nonesens.

Please, explain how is defending more effecttive. Where does defense get you? What do you achieve by it?

Haven't you ever heard "defense wins championships?" Or "the best offense is a good defense?" He's just trying to say that defense is a key component of combat, even more key than offense. As for "where does defense get you" I must say go read Sun Tzu's "The Art of War."

To the original point of this thread: Sure you can turtle all you want, but that won't exactly get you anywhere. If you come across an enemy that is literally defending 100% of the time then you must use your wits and best him. Use dodges/dashes, GBs, charges, whatever you have to. Hell, even break combat and run around the map for a little. He'll tire. Plus most of us are not playing duel so there is a more than likely chance that a friend will come along to help you (or an enemy to kill you) if a person is playing 100% defense.

Robbeeeen
02-15-2017, 07:12 PM
To the original point of this thread: Sure you can turtle all you want, but that won't exactly get you anywhere. If you come across an enemy that is literally defending 100% of the time then you must use your wits and best him. Use dodges/dashes, GBs, charges, whatever you have to. Hell, even break combat and run around the map for a little. He'll tire.

There are no wits to be used - every game has certain mechanics available. In this case, the mechanics that a defending player has at his disposal completely counter the mechanics an offensive player has it his disposal.

In a month or two everyone will play nothing but warden and poke eachother with zoneattacks and top-light-attacks, hoping that the other fails to block or parry enough of them until the time runs out.

Sure, that's a possible way to play the game - is it fun or will the game last? I don't think so.

Is it easily fixable? Yes.

Hence the several threads on this issue.

cwl14
02-15-2017, 07:37 PM
I see a trash orochi getting stumped. That is all.

Mr.BauRawr
02-15-2017, 08:30 PM
All those times you got close.

Why not pull a zone attack? Pretty hard to defend against + i belive a Orochi is a counter attacker.

Rump_Buffalo
02-15-2017, 08:59 PM
This could be solved by having all attacks deal chip damage, but not allowing chip damage to kill imo

also, unblockable attacks?

Mjolnir1337
02-15-2017, 09:17 PM
This could be solved by having all attacks deal chip damage, but not allowing chip damage to kill imo

also, unblockable attacks?

This is what my thought was as well. Chip Damage.

Also, Orochi doesnt have unblockables, AND you can still parry them. Its easier to do that Tech a GB (IMO).

Chip Damage would MAYBE fix this, however it would have to be finely balanced. Fact is Parry is pretty easy to do and even with Chip damage, if all you did was exchange chip damage with the Parry+damage the defender still wins.

This is where part of me wonders if defense should also cost stamina. But then you would have to re-tool stamina pools and regen amounts.


Right now:
Attack> GB
GB>Defense
Defense>Attack

Its a good "rock, paper, scissors" game. HOWEVER Tech>GB as well.

So the person on defense has:
Defense/Tech
Which is > Attack/GB

Which is why Defense wins.

So the only solution I see is to still have Parry stamina drain the attacker, but NOT create an "opening" in which you can strike an opponent for free damage. So what this means is the defender cannot play defensive forever, he will eventually have to come out of his shell to win. Not just Parry-> free damage. So Parry shouldnt lock the attacker in "frames" which would allow him to defend a hit, OR tech a GB after being parried.

Which now makes it a stalemate. Add Chip damage and now the defender needs to "poop or get off the pot" so to speak.

This came from another thread saying the same thing here (this isnt me BTW though I do agree):
"I think Making it so light attacks are not pushed back on block and removing any damage reward for parries would go a long way. That way you can continue your attack chain even when your opponent blocks without feeling like you were shut down(good for new players).

But if you choose you can parry an attack in the chain to push the attacker off you and start your own offense but not gain damage for remaining defensive unless your opponent fails to block or avoid your attack after you parry. Also if your opponent wasn't watching their stamina during their offense attacking your guard constantly and you parry them at the right time to deplete the remainder of their stamina and cause a knockdown that would also be good so it forces the attacker to manage his stamina while on offense and if they happen to do one attack too many they could end up being parried and knocked down."

Eji1700
02-15-2017, 10:18 PM
This is what my thought was as well. Chip Damage.

Also, Orochi doesnt have unblockables, AND you can still parry them. Its easier to do that Tech a GB (IMO).

Chip Damage would MAYBE fix this, however it would have to be finely balanced. Fact is Parry is pretty easy to do and even with Chip damage, if all you did was exchange chip damage with the Parry+damage the defender still wins.

This is where part of me wonders if defense should also cost stamina. But then you would have to re-tool stamina pools and regen amounts.


Right now:
Attack> GB
GB>Defense
Defense>Attack

Its a good "rock, paper, scissors" game. HOWEVER Tech>GB as well.

So the person on defense has:
Defense/Tech
Which is > Attack/GB

Which is why Defense wins.

So the only solution I see is to still have Parry stamina drain the attacker, but NOT create an "opening" in which you can strike an opponent for free damage. So what this means is the defender cannot play defensive forever, he will eventually have to come out of his shell to win. Not just Parry-> free damage. So Parry shouldnt lock the attacker in "frames" which would allow him to defend a hit, OR tech a GB after being parried.

Which now makes it a stalemate. Add Chip damage and now the defender needs to "poop or get off the pot" so to speak.

This came from another thread saying the same thing here (this isnt me BTW though I do agree):
"I think Making it so light attacks are not pushed back on block and removing any damage reward for parries would go a long way. That way you can continue your attack chain even when your opponent blocks without feeling like you were shut down(good for new players).

But if you choose you can parry an attack in the chain to push the attacker off you and start your own offense but not gain damage for remaining defensive unless your opponent fails to block or avoid your attack after you parry. Also if your opponent wasn't watching their stamina during their offense attacking your guard constantly and you parry them at the right time to deplete the remainder of their stamina and cause a knockdown that would also be good so it forces the attacker to manage his stamina while on offense and if they happen to do one attack too many they could end up being parried and knocked down."

The major issue with just nerfing parry is taht it doesn't stop you from still getting a huge reward from blocking. You can still just win the first round, and then just block/tech everything until the end of time to force draws. Attacking is still not rewarded enough, and there's still no way around block.

Xanthus730
02-15-2017, 10:33 PM
Defense is better than offense when your defense is stronger than their offense.
In a real fight, in real life, between 2 combatants, this is usually only the case if the stronger fighter is on defense. See: guerilla warefare and attrition tactics vs larger opponents, if you want to go back to Art of War stuff.
In reality defending against attack takes better reactions that simply attacking does.

But, as others have pointed out, in this case, reality is less important than gameplay.

Gameplay wise, if defending is better both in risk AND in reward than attacking, then the gameplay will likely tend to be very slow, with both players trying to goad the other into an attack so they can use their superior defensive options.
You'l get staring matches, repeated feints into nothing, jockeying for position, and long long matches that are boring to play and boring to watch.
This kills a game.

Dez_troi_aR
02-15-2017, 10:40 PM
All you people saying "what will happen when people get good????!!!!! OMG THEY WILL BLOCK EVERYTHING!!!! " need to be reminded that there are starplayers who had hundreds (!) of hours of playtime during test which were not public. YOu can check them out on their twitchstreams (handheldBrando, Willaguy, Mathias etc) . When they fight each other, they do NOT just sit back and stare at each other. The gameplay works on higher skill levels, though different issues appear, but nothing like the "gamebreakers" you guys keep proclaiming.

The reason why this video is not a proof for broken defense mechanics is, that the warden is not really plaing defensive. Feinting doesnt work if there is no attempt to parry.

One thing becomes clear, though : If there is a time-out, the player with the higher health should be declared winner. That would increase the pressure to take action.

Eji1700
02-15-2017, 10:55 PM
All you people saying "what will happen when people get good????!!!!! OMG THEY WILL BLOCK EVERYTHING!!!! " need to be reminded that there are starplayers who had hundreds (!) of hours of playtime during test which were not public. YOu can check them out on their twitchstreams (handheldBrando, Willaguy, Mathias etc) . When they fight each other, they do NOT just sit back and stare at each other. The gameplay works on higher skill levels, though different issues appear, but nothing like the "gamebreakers" you guys keep proclaiming.

The reason why this video is not a proof for broken defense mechanics is, that the warden is not really plaing defensive. Feinting doesnt work if there is no attempt to parry.

One thing becomes clear, though : If there is a time-out, the player with the higher health should be declared winner. That would increase the pressure to take action.

If not parrying makes feinting not work, then don't parry. Win one match, then lame out the rest.

SerNorman
02-15-2017, 11:04 PM
he must have concluded, as i have, that attaking the orochi is a death sentence because they get free damage just for sidestepping

Xanthus730
02-15-2017, 11:04 PM
Feinting still works if you attempt to parry. You can cancel a baited parry and still have enough time to block/parry/deflect the followup.

Mege92
02-16-2017, 12:03 AM
Say what you will about Warden's shoulder bash cancel into GB, but that's exactly what this game needs to overcome total defense. It forces a 50/50.

Eji1700
02-16-2017, 12:55 AM
Say what you will about Warden's shoulder bash cancel into GB, but that's exactly what this game needs to overcome total defense. It forces a 50/50.

Whats sorta dumb is that if you make the workaround to hyper defense only attack based stuff (shoulder vortex/up light+zone mixup) then guard break is still useless as anything other than a punish, which seems dumb.


But other than that yeah i mostly agree. It'd help if the shoulder charge vortex didn't loop into itself forever, but that could be fixed by having a little more stamina cost on the moves rather than making it so cheap on stamina.

In fact what REALLY bugs me about this game is that since offense takes stamina, you should have much much much stronger offensive options. You have an innate mehcanic to prevent too much ******** in the stamina bar, as the one thing it does do effectively is stop you from attacking.

l_Azure_l
02-16-2017, 02:12 AM
Say what you will about Warden's shoulder bash cancel into GB, but that's exactly what this game needs to overcome total defense. It forces a 50/50.

Not so sure about that. IMO, it's the combination of parry is so easy to do while the same goes for blocking and dodging to counter attack. Attacking is too hard and too punishable. I think they should focus fine tune on that instead of going for the guessing game route. This game has so unique gameplay mechanic. It can be something entirely different from the traditional fighting game. I just hope they can pull it off.

THEPH0NECOMPANY
02-16-2017, 05:11 AM
This is what my thought was as well. Chip Damage.

Also, Orochi doesnt have unblockables, AND you can still parry them. Its easier to do that Tech a GB (IMO).

Chip Damage would MAYBE fix this, however it would have to be finely balanced. Fact is Parry is pretty easy to do and even with Chip damage, if all you did was exchange chip damage with the Parry+damage the defender still wins.

This is where part of me wonders if defense should also cost stamina. But then you would have to re-tool stamina pools and regen amounts.


Right now:
Attack> GB
GB>Defense
Defense>Attack

Its a good "rock, paper, scissors" game. HOWEVER Tech>GB as well.

So the person on defense has:
Defense/Tech
Which is > Attack/GB

Which is why Defense wins.

So the only solution I see is to still have Parry stamina drain the attacker, but NOT create an "opening" in which you can strike an opponent for free damage. So what this means is the defender cannot play defensive forever, he will eventually have to come out of his shell to win. Not just Parry-> free damage. So Parry shouldnt lock the attacker in "frames" which would allow him to defend a hit, OR tech a GB after being parried.

Which now makes it a stalemate. Add Chip damage and now the defender needs to "poop or get off the pot" so to speak.

This came from another thread saying the same thing here (this isnt me BTW though I do agree):
"I think Making it so light attacks are not pushed back on block and removing any damage reward for parries would go a long way. That way you can continue your attack chain even when your opponent blocks without feeling like you were shut down(good for new players).

But if you choose you can parry an attack in the chain to push the attacker off you and start your own offense but not gain damage for remaining defensive unless your opponent fails to block or avoid your attack after you parry. Also if your opponent wasn't watching their stamina during their offense attacking your guard constantly and you parry them at the right time to deplete the remainder of their stamina and cause a knockdown that would also be good so it forces the attacker to manage his stamina while on offense and if they happen to do one attack too many they could end up being parried and knocked down."

AGREED^^^^^
If you base it off rock paper scissor wouldn't the solution for this be
Currently light attack>GB, Heavy attack<GB with timing Attack>defense with skill
Currently GB>Defense, GB<Defense with timing
Currently Defense> light attack Defense=attack with timing, Defense <heavy attack, Chip damage,

the problem in the balance of equations is Defense=Attack not Defense>attack with skill, its a simple problem with a simple solution balancing chip damage with stamina drain on parry

I dont see the point of balancing anything else out until this change is made as characters would have to be balanced anyway

For those of you who say the system is fine the way it is,
If the devs were to program god-tier bots that were to never lose imagine what they would do, right now
A. Tech every GB
B. Parry every attack
C. Never attack, or feint because they could be punished and potentially killed by Parry punish, or GB (on a heavy attack)
2 of these bots would just circle each other all game, never attacking for fear of punish

If they removed Parry health punish

A. Tech every GB
B. Parry Every attack
C. Attack to test defense and respond accordingly
2 of these bots would.... well
A. trade light attacks at close range,
B. Take turns parrying each other over and over
either way it will always stalemate as they would switch to perfect defense at low health but at least they attack each other

Now this system isnt perfect either as heavy attacks dont really fit in the equation at high level except as whiffed GB punish or wall throw punish but its better than the current system and im sure there is a simple fix for this as well

Edit: Im hoping the devs already realized this during betas and are working on a fix currently, as betas were really close to release date, and that the reason they havent patched it yet is that they are working on the balance changes to every problem that happens after this......

If they arent well.... Working as intended

Hawksw0rd
02-18-2017, 02:21 AM
Looking at History, most wars were won by the defenders and not the attacker (most, not all). When you do Martial Arts, you are taught that the best offense is defense. When you read 'The Art of War' you will find out, that the best way to win a war (or fight) is a surprise or well prepared defense.

I am not proud to say, that I took part in two wars, but also have no shame in saying that I also was trained in Martial Arts. That is what I learned... but maybe in other places I would've been taught that offense is the best offense... I don't know. Common sense is strategy, and strategy tells you that defending is more effective than attacking in most cases, save a few exceptions.

I rest my case.

First of all, thank you for serving.

Secondly, here is a difference between a war and a fight. Logistics come into play during war, and tend to be more lengthy in duration. A fight is intense in the second and moments, and often serves the attacker. Unlike the game, blocking strikes is not an effortless thing, it is bruising and fractures. My martial teachings mostly use defense as a way to swing into an attacking position.

Side note, they say an opponent has you figured out after three strikes. Make of that what you will.