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View Full Version : Changes since OBT and new Character Tier List



nestharus
02-14-2017, 12:21 PM
1. Zone attack indicator is still broken. To see the bug, do heavy into zone attack.



The following ratings are based on 1v1 gameplay. Tier list currently guesses where the characters will be at post patch. Anything above A is considered overpowered. Anything below A is considered underpowered. Multiple characters in a list are sorted by power.


-----SSS-----
Shugoki

-----SS-----
Warden

-----A-----
Valkyrie? = Peacekeeper = Orochi = Warlord > Nobushi = Lawbringer?

-----B-----
Kensei?

-----C-----
Berserker?

-----D-----
Conquerer?

-----F-----
Raider?

CaptainPwnet
02-14-2017, 12:33 PM
1. Guard break now requires that you press it later rather than earlier. Timing for guard break is also now different between no stamina and stamina. Tapping it too early results in an immediate failure.
.

I noticed this too and it's very broken. If you go for a GB the slightest fraction of a second after your opponent does then not only do they get the GB you auto fail the tech. Now GB's are even stupid risky because if your opponent is thinking the same thing then it's just a complete gamble who will press the button first. You are better off waiting for the GB and teching otherwise you auto fail the tech and get punished. This needs to be changed ASAP.

Aarpian2
02-14-2017, 12:34 PM
I noticed this too and it's very broken. If you go for a GB the slightest fraction of a second after your opponent does then not only do they get the GB you auto fail the tech. Now GB's are even stupid risky because if your opponent is thinking the same thing then it's just a complete gamble who will press the button first. You are better off waiting for the GB and teching otherwise you auto fail the tech and get punished. This needs to be changed ASAP.

Wasn't this always the case?

CaptainPwnet
02-14-2017, 12:57 PM
Wasn't this always the case?

Nope, you could start hitting the GB button as soon as you saw your opponents GB animation and mash it to get the tech. I learned to react almost instantly to the character animation and mash that tech button. Now if you press it even once before the proper window (which seems to be as soon as the shield icon appears in the middle of your guard indicators, seems to be as soon as the opponent actually touches you) then you automatically fail the counter. See my first post for why this is broken.

But I will add more, if this was an atempt to help the defensive play meta, then they did nothing. The window is still super easy and I see experienced players having no issue with teching in 1v1. TBH I think in 1vX it's complete garbage. But back to the pointSo this change does nothing to help turtling or make GB's more effective at higher lvls of play.

But what it does do is introduce an element of random risk that is quite infuriating actually. Now GB's are actually quite risky because if your opponent thinks the same thing as you and you GB at the same time more or less, whoever was the slightest fraction of a second later not only eats the GB but also auto fails the counter because he decided to try and GB just barely after his opponent. So through no real fault of his own, since it's not like you could see his GB attempt before you could rethink your own GB attempt, he is now being punished by a broken mechanic.

Pariah695
02-14-2017, 01:14 PM
Nope, you could start hitting the GB button as soon as you saw your opponents GB animation and mash it to get the tech. I learned to react almost instantly to the character animation and mash that tech button. Now if you press it even once before the proper window (which seems to be as soon as the shield icon appears in the middle of your guard indicators, seems to be as soon as the opponent actually touches you) then you automatically fail the counter. See my first post for why this is broken.

This seems like an improvement to me. Being able to mash out of GB is stupid. Now you need to be more precise and in control. Doesn't fix that it's still 100% reactable, but it's an improvement.

To_Obi
02-14-2017, 01:21 PM
There were some pretty hefty changes to guard break. Parry is no longer OP as a result.



1. Guard break now requires that you press it later rather than earlier. Timing for guard break is also now different between no stamina and stamina. Tapping it too early results in an immediate failure.

2. Guard break is no longer guaranteed after a parry when they have stamina. A level 3 AI was able to cancel my guard break every time I parried them.

3. Guard break is no longer guaranteed during a dodge. The level 3 AI was able to cancel guard break every time I tried to catch him during a dodge.

4. Zone attack indicator is still broken.

5. Shugoki hyper armor is automatically cleared when guard broken, regardless if cancelled successfully or not. This makes Shugoki trash.

6. Lawbringer follow up combos are not guaranteed.

7. Valkyrie follow up combos are not guaranteed. Get a shield slam? Good luck trying to knock them down.

8. Can dodge later against warden shoulder bash.

9. Blocking a light attack normally from a berserker no longer guarantees a guard break.

10. Level 3 AI was dramatically improved. This might be the result of the AI reacting to the new guard break timing, making it react to attacks differently than it used to. This is also the result of parry no longer guaranteeing grabs, making it much more difficult get through AI defense.

The guardbreak changes are super great!

Strigoil
02-14-2017, 04:22 PM
Pretty sure they also changed Peacekeeper side dodge heavy attack to be slower, my timing is way off now on getting the bleed tagged onto it,went from almost every time in OB to never at launch, tested it out on a still target and it seems it's atleast 0.3 seconds slower, maybe more.

CaptainPwnet
02-14-2017, 05:32 PM
This seems like an improvement to me. Being able to mash out of GB is stupid. Now you need to be more precise and in control. Doesn't fix that it's still 100% reactable, but it's an improvement.

No this change is very bad, this does not fix anything and ruins the mechanic cause now every GB attempt is also a potential automatic GB counter fail. So every time you GB you are risking giving your opponent a free punish and that is just so stupid and wrong. I don't understand why they don't make it more like a traditional fighting game.

Kav0rk4
02-14-2017, 05:33 PM
Yeah also, top quick and zone attack from Warden is now punishable on block (with 100% GB) BY EVERY CHARACTER.

What are these changes? Serously?!

Where are the change logs on this? Why do I have to spend 4 hours grinding my favorite character from beta only to discover he's utter **** now?

I'm getting so frustrated by this game since it released...

Jazzhands148
02-14-2017, 05:36 PM
Nope, you could start hitting the GB button as soon as you saw your opponents GB animation and mash it to get the tech. I learned to react almost instantly to the character animation and mash that tech button. Now if you press it even once before the proper window (which seems to be as soon as the shield icon appears in the middle of your guard indicators, seems to be as soon as the opponent actually touches you) then you automatically fail the counter. See my first post for why this is broken.

But I will add more, if this was an atempt to help the defensive play meta, then they did nothing. The window is still super easy and I see experienced players having no issue with teching in 1v1. TBH I think in 1vX it's complete garbage. But back to the pointSo this change does nothing to help turtling or make GB's more effective at higher lvls of play.

But what it does do is introduce an element of random risk that is quite infuriating actually. Now GB's are actually quite risky because if your opponent thinks the same thing as you and you GB at the same time more or less, whoever was the slightest fraction of a second later not only eats the GB but also auto fails the counter because he decided to try and GB just barely after his opponent. So through no real fault of his own, since it's not like you could see his GB attempt before you could rethink your own GB attempt, he is now being punished by a broken mechanic.

Sounds like it *was* broken and now it's fixed - you shouldn't be able to button mash your way into a tech hit. That's sad that you would complain it is "broken" now that you have to time it correctly, instead of just smashing a button as soon as you see that shield. That ain't how it's supposed to work fella.

Pariah695
02-14-2017, 05:38 PM
No this change is very bad, this does not fix anything and ruins the mechanic cause now every GB attempt is also a potential automatic GB counter fail. So every time you GB you are risking giving your opponent a free punish and that is just so stupid and wrong. I don't understand why they don't make it more like a traditional fighting game.

Why are you even bothering trying to guard break? Unless your opponent sucks, a guard break will fail 90% of the time in neutral.

I think the reason they're not making For Honor like a fighting game is because fighting games are a niche genre, with the steepest learning curve in all of gaming. It's highly intimidating and uninviting to casual players. Ubisoft is well... Ubisoft, which means all they care about is the mass market money. They probably don't care at all about making the game balanced. They just want it to be fun at low to mid level.

Jazzhands148
02-14-2017, 05:48 PM
Why are you even bothering trying to guard break? Unless your opponent sucks, a guard break will fail 90% of the time in neutral.

I think the reason they're not making For Honor like a fighting game is because fighting games are a niche genre, with the steepest learning curve in all of gaming. It's highly intimidating and uninviting to casual players. Ubisoft is well... Ubisoft, which means all they care about is the mass market money. They probably don't care at all about making the game balanced. They just want it to be fun at low to mid level.

For all intents and purposes, you are absolutely right.

Let's keep in mind that 1v1 dueling (such as a fighting game) is not necessarily what this game is about. It's just as much a MOBA (with some light RPG mechanics) as it is a fighting game. So in a certain sense it doesn't really matter what the meta for 1v1ing is - the flaws in the core mechanics, assuming there are actually flaws in the core mechanics are TACTICAL in nature while the main gamemodes involve elements of STRATEGY that effectively to some extent or another smooths over the flaws in the game's tactical meta.

Not only do the devs want to market this game to casuals; it's not going to be balanced like a fighter because it's mostly a TEAM based game and not 1v1 centric like a figher.

Of course the best players will always be focused on 1v1 viability. But for the majority of the playerbase, these issues in 1v1 will not ever manifest in their day to day experience in For Honor.

Aarpian2
02-14-2017, 05:57 PM
Why are you even bothering trying to guard break? Unless your opponent sucks, a guard break will fail 90% of the time in neutral.

I think the reason they're not making For Honor like a fighting game is because fighting games are a niche genre, with the steepest learning curve in all of gaming. It's highly intimidating and uninviting to casual players. Ubisoft is well... Ubisoft, which means all they care about is the mass market money. They probably don't care at all about making the game balanced. They just want it to be fun at low to mid level.

In many situations going for a guard break means you're guaranteed to hit them but it might be techable. This is often preferable to throwing out a light attack since that can be parried, and you have nothing to lose by going for the guard break. Worst case scenario you might get tech'd, but they might **** it up or try to dodge away from you as you do it.
I do a lot of guard breaks that can be tech'd because it's 0 risk high reward

CaptainPwnet
02-14-2017, 06:15 PM
In many situations going for a guard break means you're guaranteed to hit them but it might be techable. This is often preferable to throwing out a light attack since that can be parried, and you have nothing to lose by going for the guard break. Worst case scenario you might get tech'd, but they might **** it up or try to dodge away from you as you do it.
I do a lot of guard breaks that can be tech'd because it's 0 risk high reward

Exactly, but now it's just as much risk as reward and you have almost no way to influence if you come out on top. So now in theory at high lvl GB is now actually more useless lol.

Wrander
02-14-2017, 06:16 PM
Nice, so they already did some changes. But the gameplay has so many flaws that I think it's not worth to buy it till they do a general rework of the gameplay to break the unpenetrable defense. Too bad they didn't see the flaws of the gameplay till the release.

CaptainPwnet
02-14-2017, 06:25 PM
Why are you even bothering trying to guard break? Unless your opponent sucks, a guard break will fail 90% of the time in neutral.

I think the reason they're not making For Honor like a fighting game is because fighting games are a niche genre, with the steepest learning curve in all of gaming. It's highly intimidating and uninviting to casual players. Ubisoft is well... Ubisoft, which means all they care about is the mass market money. They probably don't care at all about making the game balanced. They just want it to be fun at low to mid level.

I hate to tell you but if that is the case then they set themselves up for failure. Those low-mid level players will be done with the game in 2-4 weeks and then be gone for the most part. The players that want to play at a higher lvl and stick around while giving them more money for whatever new fun stuff they come out with will only do so if the mechanics are balanced. Right now they are not and GB just went from 0 risk, high reward but easy to counter and moderately useless at high levels to very risky and even more useless.

Hibs.
02-14-2017, 06:25 PM
Sounds like it *was* broken and now it's fixed - you shouldn't be able to button mash your way into a tech hit. That's sad that you would complain it is "broken" now that you have to time it correctly, instead of just smashing a button as soon as you see that shield. That ain't how it's supposed to work fella.

I'm not sure about his experience, but I never had to mash mine. I see the guard-break window, I guard-break tec it once. No button mashing. Now? You need to let the person actually hit you. How is that better?

default91
02-14-2017, 06:33 PM
Yeah also, top quick and zone attack from Warden is now punishable on block (with 100% GB) BY EVERY CHARACTER.

What are these changes? Serously?!

Where are the change logs on this? Why do I have to spend 4 hours grinding my favorite character from beta only to discover he's utter **** now?

I'm getting so frustrated by this game since it released...

Warden was your favorite character because he was the most powerful class by leaps and bounds over the other classes, with a hugely unfair advantage. You had to know he was getting nerfed.

He is still at the top of the list with his changes, but I understand that it's frustrating to face the possibility of dropping from a near 100% win rate against other classes.

CaptainPwnet
02-14-2017, 06:38 PM
I'm not sure about his experience, but I never had to mash mine. I see the guard-break window, I guard-break tec it once. No button mashing. Now? You need to let the person actually hit you. How is that better?

Before I had trained myself to react almost instantly the the opponents GB animation and then hit GB until i get the counter which worked very well for me and in most cases I was reacting much faster than I had to. But in dominion you can't watch for the icon or particular window cause for the most part when it gets chaotic there is way too much going on to do so. If you waited to try and tech you fail. So you mash the button as soon as you see the characters GB animation startup, which I half anticipated a lot of the time as well and it works quite reliably. Reliable to the point that for the most part I could tell and admit when I was too late or didn't see the GB coming.

If they wanted it more difficult in some way(and I believe they should have made it harder), which it really isn't now, in fact it will only be more difficult in 1vX situations. Then they should have tightened up the counter window and put that window at the very beginning of the GB animation so it works more like a traditional fighting game throw. Not entirely like one but closer to it. So that way it requires skill and reactions to facilitate more skilled play.

If it was broken before and now it's "fixed", which is what it indeed sounds like then wow. They broke the mechanic into a worse state by "fixing" it.

omnishock26
02-14-2017, 06:58 PM
My opinion on the whole situation is that there shouldn't be button mashing in order to negate something and that it should be more precise.
However, with the current fix, not even that is possible if you and your opponent decide to guard break at about the same time. A potential fix to this would be changing the counter button so that you have to hit another button to guard a guard break. Thus giving you the ability to still counter the guard break if you had tried to guard break as well. This would be a tough change for those that have already gotten extremely used to the button mapping, but would solve both issues involved.

omnishock26
02-14-2017, 07:05 PM
My opinion on the whole situation is that there shouldn't be button mashing in order to negate something and that it should be more precise.
However, with the current fix, not even that is possible if you and your opponent decide to guard break at about the same time. A potential fix to this would be changing the counter button so that you have to hit another button to guard a guard break. Thus giving you the ability to still counter the guard break if you had tried to guard break as well. This would be a tough change for those that have already gotten extremely used to the button mapping, but would solve both issues involved.

PanzerShrekonin
02-14-2017, 07:35 PM
So lawbringer sucks apparently... Damnit. :(

v4c.TomBrody
02-14-2017, 08:22 PM
It didnt seem that way to me in open beta. Mashing guardbreak SHOULD NOT be a thing. Timing is key. Just time it. Why is that so hard. Just like you ptime parrys. Dont give me that "my reactions are too good and im being punished for it" .

No, if your reactions are so good, you would be able to punish it with a light attack everytime. In fact, I still think teching guardbreaks is TOO EASY.

nestharus
02-14-2017, 08:26 PM
It didnt seem that way to me in open beta. Mashing guardbreak SHOULD NOT be a thing. Timing is key. Just time it. Why is that so hard. Just like you ptime parrys. Dont give me that "my reactions are too good and im being punished for it" .

No, if your reactions are so good, you would be able to punish it with a light attack everytime. In fact, I still think teching guardbreaks is TOO EASY.

Maybe on Peacekeeper or something, but not on a slower character? I know I do it when they are out of stamina, but I didn't think it was possible at full stamina. Hmmm? I might now go for that.. lmao.

Robbeeeen
02-14-2017, 08:28 PM
GB after parry is still guaranteed, just not vs long range attacks like Nobushi - nothing changed here.

nestharus
02-14-2017, 08:30 PM
GB after parry is still guaranteed, just not vs long range attacks like Nobushi - nothing changed here.

Level 3 berserker bot broke it every time I parried them and even broke it when I caught them during mid-dodge. Either the bot now cheats or there is some new timing.


I test against bots because they will do it if it's possible. Bot got out of every guard break I did after parries and during mid-dodges, so I am assuming that it is possible because of the later guard break timing.

SethUnleashed
02-14-2017, 08:37 PM
i like tha changes generally.

dont agree with your tier-list.

berserker is in the SAME spot it was before... yes you cant be punished as hard anymore for just light attacking, BUT aside from that, nothing changed... you cant get anymore damage in than before, you just maybe take less damage in return which still doesnt make the berserker any better nor does it make him fulfill his actual purpose of "harasser"

Robbeeeen
02-14-2017, 08:50 PM
Level 3 berserker bot broke it every time I parried them and even broke it when I caught them during mid-dodge. Either the bot now cheats or there is some new timing.


I test against bots because they will do it if it's possible. Bot got out of every guard break I did after parries and during mid-dodges, so I am assuming that it is possible because of the later guard break timing.

Level 3 PK bots never broke a GB after parry, tested it for a good half hour - weird

nestharus
02-14-2017, 09:10 PM
berserker is in the SAME spot it was before... yes you cant be punished as hard anymore for just light attacking, BUT aside from that, nothing changed... you cant get anymore damage in than before, you just maybe take less damage in return which still doesnt make the berserker any better nor does it make him fulfill his actual purpose of "harasser"


I updated the tier list. I think I was just extremely tired last night. Most of it was right. The only one that moved was berserker. He went back to tier 7 where he belongs <3.




Level 3 PK bots never broke a GB after parry, tested it for a good half hour - weird


I updated the changes. You can't guard break after a parry from a super heavy attack, like overhead jump attack from berserker. I was so tired during my testing last night that about the only thing I could even manage to parry were the super slow attacks ; P.

WhoDaresWins
02-14-2017, 09:23 PM
Lawbringers are just too damn slow. They're like what you'd use to teach newbies how to block/parry.

Riouxthless
02-14-2017, 09:35 PM
You should test everything vs a real player as the AI doesn't always have the same rules as a player. (AI cheats)

nestharus
02-14-2017, 10:02 PM
You should test everything vs a real player as the AI doesn't always have the same rules as a player. (AI cheats)

All my friends are casuals : /. Nobody wants to sit there for 15 hours practicing timing against specific moves and trying to break the game except for the AI : P.

Riouxthless
02-14-2017, 10:12 PM
Feel free to add me I enjoy testing things like these out.

nestharus
02-14-2017, 11:54 PM
I have moved Shugoki up to Tier 4. If anyone disagrees with a tier that a character is in, please let me know. The new 3 are probably going to be moving around a bit.

I'll be working on grading offense and defense of each class from S to F. Most of them are going to have question marks on them as I don't know how fast a lot of the guard stance changes are =).

edit
With damage values revealed, Lawbringer has moved to tier 7. Valkyrie is still in tier 6. Raider may be moved to tier 6, but tier 5 probably represents him well.

Oupyz
02-15-2017, 01:00 AM
it's a good change , i could guardbreak 90% of the time during obt and that was after hours of play , so the harder it is the better , or u want turtle festival game , that's surely not what i want

R3turner
02-15-2017, 01:02 AM
It's not harder... just different. For people who had it on reflex, it'll take a while to unelearn old timing and learn the new one. Essentially, it's just a sneaky change by Ubisoft, neither disclosed or announced, and for dubious reasons. Classic Ubi

nestharus
02-15-2017, 01:22 AM
I am already back up to being able to cancel guard break 100% of the time and I find the timing easier than it was in OBT, so...

Ryumanjisen
02-15-2017, 02:20 AM
I am already back up to being able to cancel guard break 100% of the time and I find the timing easier than it was in OBT, so...

I keep reading about the changes to GB cancel, but I haven't experiencedl any difference. Still can break GB most of the time, and I'm still mashing the button like crazy.

pongkrit03
02-15-2017, 05:35 AM
LOL I don't have to guess you play Berserker cause you put very strong character in low tier.

Berserker just won a 1st tournament in my community so I don't think he is garbage at all. You just need to learn him.

Agree with PK though, that nerf is too strong, but not Berserker. At least Berserker should be at mid or high tier. Your list is only you to decide, clearly invalid.

nestharus
02-15-2017, 05:48 AM
LOL I don't have to guess you play Berserker cause you put very strong character in low tier.

Berserker just won a 1st tournament in my community so I don't think he is garbage at all. You just need to learn him.

Agree with PK though, that nerf is too strong, but not Berserker. At least Berserker should be at mid or high tier. Your list is only you to decide, clearly invalid.

It can defend, but not as well as any of the other assassins. It can't attack at all. What am I missing? The only thing I can remember is that one berserker was so desperate for any sort of hit that they actually quad feinted into a grab, lol...

Can you link a video please?


Thanks

CaptainPwnet
02-15-2017, 06:24 AM
LOL I don't have to guess you play Berserker cause you put very strong character in low tier.

Berserker just won a 1st tournament in my community so I don't think he is garbage at all. You just need to learn him.

Agree with PK though, that nerf is too strong, but not Berserker. At least Berserker should be at mid or high tier. Your list is only you to decide, clearly invalid.

But he's right and it's not just his opinion, but that of many. You say his list is only his to decide, clearly invalid, but by that same logic your opinion on berserker is also invalid. Whatever a single zerker did in your closed community means nothing hte larger scheme of things. You are asuming anyone in your community is actually decent at the game which I kind of doubt after your childish reaction.

lR0NIC
02-15-2017, 06:36 AM
After putting almost all my play time since release in to Lawbringer, this makes me sad :(

I always did feel outmatched though, I'm glad I wasn't completely insane.

To_Obi
02-15-2017, 09:21 AM
Rating classes after the first day is so respectable...hahaha.

I can't believe this is taken serious.

nestharus
02-15-2017, 09:31 AM
Rating classes after the first day is so respectable...hahaha.

I can't believe this is taken serious.

A lot of us were in the CBTs and OBT : ). The only new characters to me personally were Shugoki, Valkyrie, and Lawbringer, each of which I spent several hours investigating =).

I'm not going to say the list is perfectly accurate, but it has been getting refined =). The new characters have been the main ones moving about ^_-. The rest are pretty well known at this point.


This list is based on high level play. The tiers would likely be wholly different at medium and lower level play.

edit
I may push Nobushi up to tier 3. Thoughts? Either that or I may push conquerer down to tier 4? I think that she's pretty similar in power to Conquerer and that Warlord may have an edge over Conquerer. I don't know the intricacies of these characters quite enough to make a call yet. I do know that she can be extremely technical with hidden stance. I just think that either she needs to move to tier 3 or conquerer needs to move to tier 4. Someone with more experience on these characters should provide some insight : ).

To_Obi
02-15-2017, 09:41 AM
A lot of us were in the CBTs and OBT : ). The only new characters to me personally were Shugoki, Valkyrie, and Lawbringer, each of which I spent several hours investigating =).

I'm not going to say that these are perfectly accurate, but the list has been getting refined =). Berserker and the new characters have been the main ones moving about.

Oh guess what, others were too.
Mixing up test versions with the live version is just complete ********.
Trying to rate the new classes after "several hours investigating" is just confirmation for me that this is your personal feeling and opinion and nothing else. People should not forget that when they read posts like this.

nestharus
02-15-2017, 09:51 AM
Oh guess what, others were too.
Mixing up test versions with the live version is just complete ********.
Trying to rate the new classes after "several hours investigating" is just confirmation for me that this is your personal feeling and opinion and nothing else. People should not forget that when they read posts like this.

I judged offensive capabilities of their combos against level 3 AI, seeing what combos could land and what wouldn't. I judged attack speed by defending against them, seeing how easy it was to avoid getting hit by them. I also did things like measure dodge distance, look at damage tables, etc. The 3 new ones are still moving around a bit. Some old ones may change on tier, not because I don't know them, but because I may be weighting their weaknesses vs their strengths a little bit unfairly. Nobushi and Conquerer may be two examples of this. The current state of Peacekeeper may be another. I may have been too harsh throwing her into tier 7 just because her grab is busted at the moment.


Yes, these are my opinions. However, these opinions are based on a lot of factors and I am looking at the viability of these characters for high level play.


Feedback is always appreciated. If you know something I don't, or if you see something that I am not considering for a character, please speak up : o. I'm definitely not sure that I've been fair to Kensei either. I'm fairly confident in my rating of Warden, Berserker, Warlord, Orochi, Lawbringer, Shugoki, and Raider. Nobushi, Kensei, Valkyrie, Peacekeeper, and Conquerer could move around slightly : ). At this point I'm not anticipating any major changes until balance is modified/things are fixed (looking at you Valkyrie, Peacekeeper, and Lawbringer).

Again, if you think that I've been unfair or too generous to a character, please speak up =).

Aarpian2
02-15-2017, 10:23 AM
This might be the ****tiest tier list I've seen yet

Knight_Raime
02-15-2017, 11:44 AM
I will remain skeptical and question people until they actually put forth evidence on their claims. I've been watching the same streamers during the betas as I have post launch. and none of what you have posted has seemed to be the case at all. I watch true constantly for several hours during his 12 hour stream reliably get a guard break after a parry. and he's not fighting average joes. he hasn't been due to the skill braket he's in.

That alone right there is enough for me to cast doubt on your entire list of claims.

nestharus
02-15-2017, 11:52 AM
I will remain skeptical and question people until they actually put forth evidence on their claims. I've been watching the same streamers during the betas as I have post launch. and none of what you have posted has seemed to be the case at all. I watch true constantly for several hours during his 12 hour stream reliably get a guard break after a parry. and he's not fighting average joes. he hasn't been due to the skill braket he's in.

That alone right there is enough for me to cast doubt on your entire list of claims.

You don't have to take my word for it. I saw this behavior by testing level 3 AI. I've only run into one attack thus far that I can't get a guard break after a parry on. This attack is the berserker jump attack. Try it yourself and see if you can parry into a guaranteed guard break on it. You may be surprised : ). I was able to do it during OBT and CBT. I have been unable to do it since launch.


It could be that this is the only ability that you can't get a guaranteed guard break off of after a parry. I don't know. I haven't had a chance to replay all of the AI yet. The AI was semi-fixed, so I've been playing against Shugoki, Lawbringer, Valkyrie, Berserker, and Nobushi. I will retest tomorrow against berserker and maybe spend an hour seeing if there is really no way I can get a guard break off of that specific move. I think I spent 6 hours trying today, so I don't think it is going to work...


I will start playing against actual players once I've replayed all of the bots with the new AI fixes. The practice against certain unblockable and quick attacks is just too good to pass up : p. Was finally able to play against Nobushi to my heart's content and ended being able to block all light attacks 100 percent of the time as well as react to her kick out of hidden stance/light. I was able to block a light out of hidden stance without the urge to dodge and dodge the kick without the urge to block. Mission accomplished learning Nobushi animations : ). Only thing left to do is parry light attacks out of hidden stance : /.

Knight_Raime
02-15-2017, 12:06 PM
You don't have to take my word for it. I saw this behavior by testing level 3 AI. I've only run into one attack thus far that I can't get a guard break after a parry on. This attack is the berserker jump attack. Try it yourself and see if you can parry into a guaranteed guard break on it. You may be surprised : ). I was able to do it during OBT and CBT. I have been unable to do it since launch.


It could be that this is the only ability that you can't get a guaranteed guard break off of after a parry. I don't know. I haven't had a chance to replay all of the AI yet. The AI was semi-fixed, so I've been playing against Shugoki, Lawbringer, Valkyrie, Berserker, and Nobushi.


I will start playing against actual players once I've replayed all of the bots with the new AI fixes. The practice against certain unblockable and quick attacks is just too good to pass up : p. Was finally able to play against Nobushi to my heart's content and ended being able to block all light attacks 100 percent of the time as well as react to her kick out of hidden stance/light. I was able to block a light out of hidden stance without the urge to dodge and dodge the kick without the urge to block. Mission accomplished learning Nobushi animations : ). Only thing left to do is parry light attacks out of hidden stance : /.

AI are not the best test subjects for things beyond damage numbers and seeing if you can chain some hits together or not. the AI don't play the same and streamers like trutalent have "broken" the AI before into making them repeat certain actions or make them do certain actions that cause them to do effects he wanted.

nestharus
02-15-2017, 12:08 PM
AI are not the best test subjects for things beyond damage numbers and seeing if you can chain some hits together or not. the AI don't play the same and streamers like trutalent have "broken" the AI before into making them repeat certain actions or make them do certain actions that cause them to do effects he wanted.


I was testing to see if I could chain some hits together and I wasn't able to. Parry -> guard break -> cancelled. I can ask an actual player to perform the test with me to verify >.>.


AI are also great for learning most animations : ).


Also, the AI since launch is a lot more random. Before launch, the AI repeated the same nonsense over and over again. After launch, it's seemingly random. I tested Warden Shoulder Charge and the AI responded in a random fashion when it had stamina. It would sometimes dodge and attack, sometimes grab, and sometimes stand and attack, just like a player. It would also dodge at the last moment so that I didn't have time to cancel out >.<.


AI can still be improved. AI shouldn't be using heavies except as punish : /.

Knight_Raime
02-15-2017, 12:31 PM
I was testing to see if I could chain some hits together and I wasn't able to. Parry -> guard break -> cancelled. I can ask an actual player to perform the test with me to verify >.>.


AI are also great for learning most animations : ).


Also, the AI since launch is a lot more random. Before launch, the AI repeated the same nonsense over and over again. After launch, it's seemingly random. I tested Warden Shoulder Charge and the AI responded in a random fashion when it had stamina. It would sometimes dodge and attack, sometimes grab, and sometimes stand and attack, just like a player. It would also dodge at the last moment so that I didn't have time to cancel out >.<.


AI can still be improved. AI shouldn't be using heavies except as punish : /.

I'd still go with the AI being faulty since I watched some guy parry lights and heavies and unblockables all day earlier today and get a GB after every parry he did.

Robbeeeen
02-15-2017, 12:35 PM
I'd still go with the AI being faulty since I watched some guy parry lights and heavies and unblockables all day earlier today and get a GB after every parry he did.

There are many instances where you cannot GB after a parry. This happens due to the range of some weapons. Parrying a Nobushi as Warden for example will not let you GB her, unless she is standing against a wall - if you mash the button when u parry her point blank, you sometimes get it without the wall. If you GB after parry from her max- or even mid-range, you grab air and leave yourself open.

It sounds feasible that there are a few attacks in the game where you can GB after parry, but you are so far away that you just make range-wise, but then the stagger from the parry expired and you can counter-GB it. That is very rare though - the scenario above happens all the time.

Knight_Raime
02-15-2017, 12:53 PM
There are many instances where you cannot GB after a parry. This happens due to the range of some weapons. Parrying a Nobushi as Warden for example will not let you GB her, unless she is standing against a wall - if you mash the button when u parry her point blank, you sometimes get it without the wall. If you GB after parry from her max- or even mid-range, you grab air and leave yourself open.

It sounds feasible that there are a few attacks in the game where you can GB after parry, but you are so far away that you just make range-wise, but then the stagger from the parry expired and you can counter-GB it. That is very rare though - the scenario above happens all the time.

Nobushi is the only example i've seen. and that's literally because of her range.

VeteranNoob
02-15-2017, 01:02 PM
I wish they had documented these changes somewhere as I can't find a list of these changes from ubisoft anywhere.

I hope this kind of lack of documentation isn't how they plan to do things...making people figure out what they changed every patch with "-hero balancing made".

SethUnleashed
02-15-2017, 02:02 PM
Nobushi is the only example i've seen. and that's literally because of her range.

done some testing to confirm again:

nobushi: no matter the positioning and attack direction, she will NEVER be in range for a GB after a parry

shoguki: no matter the positioning and attack direction the fat ****er will always take a step back after a parry and will therefor NEVER be in range for a GB after a parry

kensei: depending on positioning and attack direction he CAN be in range for a GB after a parry (more likely to be in range after top-parry)

Robbeeeen
02-15-2017, 02:51 PM
done some testing to confirm again:

nobushi: no matter the positioning and attack direction, she will NEVER be in range for a GB after a parry

shoguki: no matter the positioning and attack direction the fat ****er will always take a step back after a parry and will therefor NEVER be in range for a GB after a parry

kensei: depending on positioning and attack direction he CAN be in range for a GB after a parry (more likely to be in range after top-parry)

That is consistent with my experience.
Also, Valkyrie sometimes is not in GB range, as well as Lawbringer.

MartialBalerina
02-15-2017, 02:58 PM
great post. ive been having this discussion lately with friends aswell. it is quite game breaking. especially with how strong the warden is. He is way too strong as a hero because he has too many tools that break an open up even the most absolute defense. Most characters lack the ability to break absolute defense - being defined as someone who can block and parry all attacks, break guard-breaks, and have solid reaction speed ( note that I said solid, not godly) OR is capable of reading telegraphed moves i.e. Orochi stormrush

I play with a friend who has mastered the class more or less, and I myself am quite good with them and most other classes. While I myself am able to parry and deflect their attacks. I swear to god its like dodging a bullet. No on is faster or as unpredictable as this class and they utilize feints the best as they have two super fast attacks from two different angles and the double tap - as well as being able to easily trick you into dodging for the guardbreak ( this is not broken, but most classes cant trick you as easily from a distance to dodge for a guard break). this is well beyond the range of adaptation. I also I fear that most people who don't agree with this post are knight faction or simply in love with the warden.

TommyCob22
02-15-2017, 03:09 PM
Lawbringer is amazing in 1v1. i dominated as it yesterday. Im glad truetalent on twitch is using it all day today at high level to prove how good he is. tune in and learn something. righ tnow he is 3-0 against really good opponents. not bad for first 3 games on a brand new class he has never played, he is onbly going to get better

Robbeeeen
02-15-2017, 03:09 PM
great post. ive been having this discussion lately with friends aswell. it is quite game breaking. especially with how strong the warden is. He is way too strong as a hero because he has too many tools that break an open up even the most absolute defense. Most characters lack the ability to break absolute defense - being defined as someone who can block and parry all attacks, break guard-breaks, and have solid reaction speed ( note that I said solid, not godly) OR is capable of reading telegraphed moves i.e. Orochi stormrush

I play with a friend who has mastered the class more or less, and I myself am quite good with them and most other classes. While I myself am able to parry and deflect their attacks. I swear to god its like dodging a bullet. No on is faster or as unpredictable as this class and they utilize feints the best as they have two super fast attacks from two different angles and the double tap - as well as being able to easily trick you into dodging for the guardbreak ( this is not broken, but most classes cant trick you as easily from a distance to dodge for a guard break). this is well beyond the range of adaptation. I also I fear that most people who don't agree with this post are knight faction or simply in love with the warden.

I feel its important to realize that the Warden is not too strong, but other classes too weak. He is the only character that can somewhat penetrate a perfect defense - Orochi being a close second. Nerf him and every game I queue into will be a tie.

SethUnleashed
02-15-2017, 04:26 PM
I feel its important to realize that the Warden is not too strong, but other classes too weak. He is the only character that can somewhat penetrate a perfect defense - Orochi being a close second. Nerf him and every game I queue into will be a tie.

i have to agree with this.

allthough there are some things that i dont get about the warden:

why does he have the fastest guard-switching of all classes? how is a twohander faster moved than for example two one-handed axes from the zerker.

his top-light and zone-attack are probably the fastest attacks in the whole game (why does he need two)

i'd rather they fix the other classes, but the warden is on a level to which they basically have to re-design half the classes to even get close.

Knight_Raime
02-15-2017, 04:42 PM
done some testing to confirm again:

nobushi: no matter the positioning and attack direction, she will NEVER be in range for a GB after a parry

shoguki: no matter the positioning and attack direction the fat ****er will always take a step back after a parry and will therefor NEVER be in range for a GB after a parry

kensei: depending on positioning and attack direction he CAN be in range for a GB after a parry (more likely to be in range after top-parry)

I already noted nobushi and why that is.
I can't agree with the shugoki. I've seen people parry and GB him. it might not be consistent though.
Kensei I don't see enough of him in duels. but yeah it depends with him.
valk also depends.
Maybe on lawbringer.

TBH I haven't seen enough people fighting against the new 3 people to say anything definitive.

Exoriar
02-15-2017, 05:01 PM
...
allthough there are some things that i dont get about the warden:

why does he have the fastest guard-switching of all classes? how is a twohander faster moved than for example two one-handed axes from the zerker.

his top-light and zone-attack are probably the fastest attacks in the whole game (why does he need two)
...


My sentence has nothing to do with game balance, but you are usually quicker with a two hander than with a one-hander.
A usual long sword (two handed sword) is not much heavier than an arming sword (one handed sword), yet you use two arms and thus twice your strenght on the two hander than you use with the one hander.

Furthermore axes have their balance further to the top, making them a hard hitting weapon with lots of force behind it, while swords are ballanced more towards the hilt, allowing you to wield it much quicker.

But from the size, the Warden's sword looks more like a great-sword for me.

Edit: Looking at it again, the sword is really a longsword.
For people who want some deeper informations about swords:
Greatswords: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWWpzXOuk_s
Longsword's speed: https://youtu.be/aSy9GLi2H44?t=7m44s

drinkingjacket
02-15-2017, 05:31 PM
i have to agree with this.

allthough there are some things that i dont get about the warden:

why does he have the fastest guard-switching of all classes? how is a twohander faster moved than for example two one-handed axes from the zerker.

his top-light and zone-attack are probably the fastest attacks in the whole game (why does he need two)

i'd rather they fix the other classes, but the warden is on a level to which they basically have to re-design half the classes to even get close.


I agree with Seth.

It was obvious from betas that turtling and GB needed some tweaking, I don't know if the fix Ubi pushed out is a good one, I'd rather they added another strategic layer than some QTE in a P2P game.


Some kind of light attack for all the classes that "engages" the opponents weapon disabling a parry chance for a few seconds might be a good idea to iterate on.


And no matter what Ubi chooses to do, the fact is the other classes need to be at Warden level, not have Warden nerfed to Raider level.

Altair_Snake
02-15-2017, 06:15 PM
BTW, I dunno if you know this, but the PK's forward lunging thrust leaves the characters even on frames. You can do this to compare the speed of some stuff. I'm pretty curious to see if the Warden's top light is faster than the PK's. If you test before I do, please post it here.

Altair_Snake
02-16-2017, 09:26 AM
What do you mean by this? "One of their most powerful abilities is a heavy into grab combo that has no feint."

That the feint is fast?

nestharus
02-16-2017, 10:35 AM
What do you mean by this? "One of their most powerful abilities is a heavy into grab combo that has no feint."

That the feint is fast?

Hit heavy then hit grab on peacekeeper. There is no feint. It starts heavy animation and then goes straight into a grab.

Altair_Snake
02-16-2017, 10:53 AM
Wow! Thanks! I had no idea.

nestharus
02-16-2017, 01:04 PM
Moved Lawbringer to tier 2. I actually decided to try him out and he wasn't as bad as the bot or others made him out to be. He doesn't have much damage and his combos don't really confirm into much, but he does do a lot of stamina damage, allowing him to mix up between blocks and parries dropping the opponent. We'll see.


He can also control the opponent quite well with shoves, making him very good for getting environment damage. He has a lot of health, which makes up for his low damage. Trying to get over the last bar on him can be tough depending on what character you are using. His guard stance change, from what I actually find, was similar to that of the Warden's. It's stupidly fast. I find that I could react at the last instant to an attack and he'd be on top of it. This is unlike Peacekeeper, Orochi, and Berserker.


I don't know that he has the umph to make it to tier 1, but he is definitely very viable. After more time, he may move again. He could either go into tier 1 or tier 3. He could potentially have a vortex too. We'll see.

Lawbringer requires more skill than any other character to play correctly. He may only show his true potential at the absolute highest levels of play.


Valkyrie's movement set is really, really good. She also has a vortex. She could easily be a tier 1 character if it wasn't for her horrible damage.


Shugoki may move to tier 4 after some more time.


Kensei could potentially move to tier 5.

m0u-1337
02-16-2017, 01:22 PM
In 1vs1: Berserker Tier 3 or 4, raider tier 7, conqueror Tier 2

nestharus
02-16-2017, 01:43 PM
I'll investigate more.


Berserker can feasibly do feints into grabs if the opponent is going for parries on heavies. They also have the largest dodge out of the assassins. We'll see. I just think that a plain block on light attack confirming a side to overhead heavy is pretty bad. Conquerer has this same weakness and Lawbringer *might*. When I tested it quickly before, Lawbringer appeared to have the same problem as Berserker, but I can't say for sure until I actually do it myself with another player.

I'll look into Conquerer more. I originally had him at tier 3 with Warlord.


Due to how painfully slow the raider's heavies are, making their feints next to useless, he may be moving to tier 7.


A lot of people say that Shugoki is really strong, but I think that grab killing his hyper armor is still a pretty big weakness. Every Shugoki player I've seen really gets a lot of their damage out of their hyper armor trades. They can't land any attacks otherwise. Grabs negate this. That being said, the hyper armor is a more complex mechanic than this. A player can't simply go for a grab or the Shugoki will simply attack, knowing that the player aims to clear out their armor. I don't think that he is stupidly strong. His healing grab is also pretty slow. It can catch players if they are mid-attack and being too aggressive, but it does a lot of damage to the Shugoki if it fails. Considering how easy it is to avoid and that the Shugoki has to guess that their opponent is about to do something before they use it, it's more or less a gamble. I'd have to think about it = O.

Zerlias
02-16-2017, 01:46 PM
And no matter what Ubi chooses to do, the fact is the other classes need to be at Warden level, not have Warden nerfed to Raider level.

I agree. In fighting games, you try to buff low tiers, not hard nerf top tiers, otherwise it leads to more frustration. You wan't to choose a character amongst a bunch of strong ones, not the "least bad" one.

SethUnleashed
02-16-2017, 01:50 PM
I agree. In fighting games, you try to buff low tiers, not hard nerf top tiers, otherwise it leads to more frustration. You wan't to choose a character amongst a bunch of strong ones, not the "least bad" one.

in a perfect world there should be a maximum of maybe 3 tiers in this list (perfect balance is a pipe dream and we all know it)

Zerlias
02-16-2017, 02:03 PM
Indeed, having too many tiers is confusing. It can be justified for a game having 40 characters, but in this case it's a bit an overkill.

Also, i see that strengths and weaknesses are mentioned for each character in the original post, but usually you build a tier list by reviewing matchups more than character specificities. For example, if an Orochi is strong against 8 characters, and has difficulties against the 3 remaining ones, he could be considered as a high tier character because of this ratio. But you can hardly make a reliable tier list before at least a few months of post-release gameplay, knowledge has to be built with experience.

Another point is that if a tier list is build based on 1v1 gameplay, it won't be the same for other game modes, because of teamplay, and game mode mechanisms (Dominion).

Altair_Snake
02-16-2017, 03:02 PM
I agree. A match-up perspective would be nice. I also agree that the balance should aim primarily Dominion. I'm OK with some characters being better at 1v1, if there is a trade-off.

And a questiona bout the Shugoki: does a grab nullify is super armor, even if it gets tech'ed? Also, what if he "trades with the grab", like when the grab "whiffs" against an attack - does it still take away his super armor?

Also... anyone knows if his head butt is guaranteed after a light? Or can people dodge it?

And about LB, anyone knows if his parry into the zone attack results in something special? I could ony get the normal zone attack after it. But since it's listed as a special move, I'm suspecting I'm missing something.

m0u-1337
02-16-2017, 03:05 PM
The focus should be based on 2vs2 and 1vs1. For dominion it would be better the improve the abilities instead of the classes.

Zerlias
02-16-2017, 03:18 PM
I think it's far more complicated for Dominion, because results are often decided by teamplay, more than personal feat. You can take 2 weak characters and put them together, suddenly it becomes a strong combo because they complete themselves fully.

It will also depend on Ubisoft, and how they will try to promote For Honor as an e-sport game. Will they give priority to duels ? To Dominion ? Several game modes in parallel ?

nestharus
02-16-2017, 03:19 PM
Grab nullifies super armor, even if it gets tech'd

Don't know about grab trade. Probably not.

Head butt is guaranteed after a light.

Don't know about about parry into zone attack resulting in something special.

I am re-evaluating Shugoki tier : o.

Dizzy4213
02-16-2017, 03:23 PM
Moved Lawbringer to tier 2. I actually decided to try him out and he wasn't as bad as the bot or others made him out to be. He doesn't have much damage and his combos don't really confirm into much, but he does do a lot of stamina damage, allowing him to mix up between blocks and parries dropping the opponent. We'll see.

He can also control the opponent quite well with shoves, making him very good for getting environment damage. He has a lot of health, which makes up for his low damage. Trying to get over the last bar on him can be tough depending on what character you are using. His guard stance change, from what I actually find, was similar to that of the Warden's. It's stupidly fast. I find that I could react at the last instant to an attack and he'd be on top of it. This is unlike Peacekeeper, Orochi, and Berserker.



LMAO! Lawbringer 'tier 2'. 'Defence S' lol.

He's outright broken in his current state. Underpowered is an understatement. If you truly think he's a good hero there you clearly haven't fought any decent players. He's good for stomping noobs, that's it. As someone who has reached Rep 2 on him I know this all too well. He's one of if not, the most underpowered hero in the game at the moment. He fails at what he was designed to do which to counter-attack.

He doesn't have a lot of stamina at all and god help you if you ever get parried because then you'll lose all your stamina. Which isn't hard to do given his extremely slow attack speed. His guard stance is either broken or bugged. It's not 'stupidly fast' at all. He changes guard so slowly that a decent PK, Orochi or Berserker will rip him apart by just spamming light attacks from different directions. If you honestly think he is that good then you clearly haven't used him enough or against a player who is even somewhat competent at the game.

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1579560-Everything-wrong-with-the-Lawbringer

nestharus
02-16-2017, 03:38 PM
Eh, I used him myself and some Tru3Ta1ent use him on youtube. He's not as bad as you think : ).


Stood in front of a peacekeeper spamming light attacks on Lawbringer for 1 hour with timer disabled and got hit exactly 0 times. Peacekeeper was also throwing in feints/grabs. Anything to try and get me. Sooooooo.... I wouldn't call his guard stance slow. It seemed faster than assassin guard stance change.

He was bumped down to tier 3, but we are just going to have to wait and see how more of this pans out before we see where he really sits =).



The player he played against could parry overhead light from lawbringer on reaction, so that'll tell you how good that player was.


Someone else also mentioned that Lawbringer could have an infinite combo between overhead light and grab. The overhead light may confirm a grab..

edit
I also edited list to go from S to F and moved characters around a little again : /.

Stankyfoot
02-16-2017, 04:12 PM
Eh, I used him myself and some Tru3Ta1ent use him on youtube. He's not as bad as you think : ).


Stood in front of a peacekeeper spamming light attacks on Lawbringer for 1 hour with timer disabled and got hit exactly 0 times. Peacekeeper was also throwing in feints/grabs. Anything to try and get me. Sooooooo.... I wouldn't call his guard stance slow. It seemed faster than assassin guard stance change.

He was bumped down to tier 3, but we are just going to have to wait and see how more of this pans out before we see where he really sits =).



The player he played against could parry overhead light from lawbringer on reaction, so that'll tell you how good that player was.


Someone else also mentioned that Lawbringer could have an infinite combo between overhead light and grab. The overhead light may confirm a grab..

Tru3ta1ent is a beast. I suggest everyone check out his Lawbringer gameplay, he himself thinks that the Lawbringer is one of the better characters.

Altair_Snake
02-17-2017, 12:28 AM
Grab nullifies super armor, even if it gets tech'd

Don't know about grab trade. Probably not.

Head butt is guaranteed after a light.

Don't know about about parry into zone attack resulting in something special.

I am re-evaluating Shugoki tier : o.
Thanks, man.

VMPL1
02-17-2017, 08:08 AM
Eh, I used him myself and some Tru3Ta1ent use him on youtube. He's not as bad as you think : ).


Stood in front of a peacekeeper spamming light attacks on Lawbringer for 1 hour with timer disabled and got hit exactly 0 times. Peacekeeper was also throwing in feints/grabs. Anything to try and get me. Sooooooo.... I wouldn't call his guard stance slow. It seemed faster than assassin guard stance change.

He was bumped down to tier 3, but we are just going to have to wait and see how more of this pans out before we see where he really sits =).



The player he played against could parry overhead light from lawbringer on reaction, so that'll tell you how good that player was.


Someone else also mentioned that Lawbringer could have an infinite combo between overhead light and grab. The overhead light may confirm a grab..

edit
I also edited list to go from S to F and moved characters around a little again : /.
Someone can actually parry that overhead light?

nestharus
02-17-2017, 08:09 AM
Shugoki is now S tier. Shugoki has a vortex I think, though it isn't as good as Warden's.

4 characters remaining that could potentially move about. What's sad is that as this list is finally nearing completion, we're being hit with a balance patch with no patch notes that'll throw it all out of whack again >.<.


If anyone wants to help with this list, please provide videos/feedback on 4 remaining characters and/or add me on PC and show me in-game. I don't see any potential whatsoever in berserker and I only see one fairly decent thing on conquerer.

DeK0sm0s
02-17-2017, 08:30 AM
Is this patch announced/confirmed? When is it coming?

DeK0sm0s
02-17-2017, 08:34 AM
AnnouncementUpcoming Gameplay Improvements (self.forhonor)
Toegevoegd op 8 uur geleden * door MrEricPopeUbisoft Community Developer - announcement
We are excited to see that our game is finally out there and that players are enjoying their time on the battlefield. Our team is also actively listening to the community and we would like to update you on a list of improvements that will be deployed in upcoming updates: &amp;nbsp;
Bots Replacing Players in Duel / Brawl / Elimination Game Modes:
In response to player feedback from Beta, we will address your concerns regarding Bots with full health replacing leaving players. We will now replace the leaving player with a dead Bot in Duel, Brawl, and Elimination game modes. This will effectively make you win the current round if it was the only opponent left alive. For the rounds that follow, the Bot will stay in place of the player.
Conqueror and Berserker:
Currently if your opponent blocks a light attack from these two characters, they can combo into a free Guard Break. This will no longer happen. <--edited to clarify!
Peacekeeper:
We will address the bug where the second and third stabs from a guardbreak do not apply bleed.
Valkyrie:
Light Attacks: reduced recovery time
Light Chains: reduced time between attacks
Pouncing Thrust &amp; Hunter’s Strike: Increased damage and link options after those moves
Shield Crush: add link to Light Attack chains
Hunter’s Rush: reduced recovery time
Guardbreak Counter (All Heroes):
Currently you can’t counter a guardbreak during a guardbreak attempt. This will be return to the previous behavior seen in the Beta.
&amp;nbsp;
Stay tuned for more information regarding future gameplay updates.

found this on reddit, thats pretty huge for zerk and conq right?

SethUnleashed
02-17-2017, 08:43 AM
its nice, but wont change berserker at all, as you still cant be offensive and are still shut down just as easily, you just wont take as much damage now.

berserkers defense went from "F" to maybe "C" or "E", but thats it

DeK0sm0s
02-17-2017, 08:53 AM
c or e? what happened to the d

SethUnleashed
02-17-2017, 09:07 AM
c or e? what happened to the d

just me being stupid XD...
doing multiple stuff at once never ends the way you want

of course i meant change into "D" or "E" :)

Rump_Buffalo
02-17-2017, 10:34 AM
Honestly after having time to get used to it and play with it, i like the new GB a lot better

nestharus
02-17-2017, 10:37 AM
I have updated tier list to place characters where I think they will be post patch.


I would like to test against Warden shoulder charge. I think I see something : ).

edit
So far as I can tell, the new guard break coming in will be similar to beta except that you can react up to you the symbol above your character, making the window extremely large?

SethUnleashed
02-17-2017, 10:53 AM
I have updated tier list to place characters where I think they will be post patch.


I would like to test against Warden shoulder charge. I think I see something : ).

edit
So far as I can tell, the new guard break coming in will be similar to beta except that you can react up to you the symbol above your character, making the window extremely large?

the change will probably make it so that there isnt a "pressed button too early" anymore?

any ETA on the patch?

ZechsMarquizy
02-17-2017, 08:14 PM
1. Zone attack indicator is still broken. To see the bug, do heavy into zone attack.



The following ratings are based on 1v1 gameplay. Tier list currently guesses where the characters will be at post patch. Anything above A is considered overpowered. Anything below A is considered underpowered. Multiple characters in a list are sorted by power.


-----SS-----
Warden

-----S-----
Shugoki

-----A-----
Valkyrie? = Peacekeeper = Orochi = Warlord > Nobushi = Lawbringer? > Conquerer?

-----B-----
Berserker?

-----C-----
Kensei?

-----F-----
Raider?

LOL @ Warden = SS hahahahahahha ur hilarious

nestharus
02-17-2017, 09:49 PM
LOL @ Warden = SS hahahahahahha ur hilarious

Where do you think Warden currently stands? He is hailed by all the top players as the strongest character in the game.

SethUnleashed
02-17-2017, 10:32 PM
Valkyrie vs Nobushi is EXTREMELY broken ...

the nobushis range is so big and her recovery so fast, that you CANNOT hit any light-attack deflect (shoulder pin) or light-attack light-parry (instant-counter dmg).
the nobushi will auto-block ALL of those with no exception.

it works against the nobushi's heavy attacks, but not against a SINGLE one of her light attacks (or combos for that matter).

recorded some videos, gonna edit them later.

-------------------

i also feel like a berserker is generally out-classed by a kensei in most situations so i'd swap those too and put the Valkyrie into B (MAYBE into A after we actually see what the buffs do for her)

edit: lawbringer could potentially be a tier higher... he has some REALLY nasty combos that are very hard to get out of (cant dodge/parry/deflect only way out is guardbreak-counter... if you fail that, you lose 1/3+ of your health AND a ton of stamina)

The_Mensan
02-18-2017, 05:27 AM
1. Zone attack indicator is still broken. To see the bug, do heavy into zone attack.



The following ratings are based on 1v1 gameplay. Tier list currently guesses where the characters will be at post patch. Anything above A is considered overpowered. Anything below A is considered underpowered. Multiple characters in a list are sorted by power.


-----SS-----
Warden

-----S-----
Shugoki

-----A-----
Valkyrie? = Peacekeeper = Orochi = Warlord > Nobushi = Lawbringer? > Conquerer?

-----B-----
Berserker?

-----C-----
Kensei?

-----F-----
Raider?

OMG, this is a good list... I agree with just about everything in this list. I noticed that it's probably based on High/Top level play, because at low levels, the tiers are different :D

The only thing I would change is Warlord is close to S than A. Warlord is significantly stronger than the rest of A. The block everything move that cancels recovery + the free counter after block is what makes the class dangerous. While it might not be as straight forward and powerful as Shugoki and its super armor, a Warlord is a cut above the rest of Tier A (the likes of Orochi and PK cannot win against Warlord).

THlCC_DADDY
02-18-2017, 05:53 AM
1. Zone attack indicator is still broken. To see the bug, do heavy into zone attack.



The following ratings are based on 1v1 gameplay. Tier list currently guesses where the characters will be at post patch. Anything above A is considered overpowered. Anything below A is considered underpowered. Multiple characters in a list are sorted by power.


-----SS-----
Warden

-----S-----
Shugoki

-----A-----
Valkyrie? = Peacekeeper = Orochi = Warlord > Nobushi = Lawbringer? > Conquerer?

-----B-----
Berserker?

-----C-----
Kensei?

-----F-----
Raider?


Shugoki S tier LOL good one, as a Shugoki main you have 0 option against any one who play defensive, your only feint option is on slow and heavy that you use to trade so feinting them isn't an option. Lit everyone I play on Rep 4 just wait for me to attack and just parry overhead me for dmg. Lit have 0 option to break someone who play like that, not to mention Shukogi slowest of all his main dmg at higher level is light attack headbutt which do valkyrie dmg alike. Anyone who say Shugoki is OP need to learn how to parry and git gud.

pongkrit03
02-18-2017, 06:00 AM
just ignore him, This guy put Berserker to B, anddddddd ... he plays Berserker, wow great

Peacekeeper should move to S
Orochi should move to S, if not SS
Berserker should move to A
Kensei should move to B
Shugoki should move to A
Nobushi should move to S (or A+ )
Lawbringer should move to B
Varkyrie should move to B (what's she good at, exactly ?)
Raider can be C

That is my two cents. For other heroes, I have no experience so I won't judge.

ShieldNSpear
02-18-2017, 06:30 AM
I may push Nobushi up to tier 3. Thoughts? Either that or I may push conquerer down to tier 4? I think that she's pretty similar in power to Conquerer and that Warlord may have an edge over Conquerer. I don't know the intricacies of these characters quite enough to make a call yet. I do know that she can be extremely technical with hidden stance. I just think that either she needs to move to tier 3 or conquerer needs to move to tier 4. Someone with more experience on these characters should provide some insight : ).

I've played conqueror from the day the open beta launched, and have so since release as well. I suggest bumping conqueror down to 4 because as I am getting matched against better and better players I'm starting to sorely feel the pain of not being able to feint.


AI are not the best test subjects for things beyond damage numbers and seeing if you can chain some hits together or not. the AI don't play the same and streamers like trutalent have "broken" the AI before into making them repeat certain actions or make them do certain actions that cause them to do effects he wanted.

I've noticed this as well. For example a Conqueror charging his heavy attack can completely paralyze AI that have him targeted. It's like straight hypnosis.

Also, I got an ubisoft response in another thread talking about changing guardbreak mechanics. Has this been taken into account?
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1581892-Uncounterable-Guardbreaks-are-cancer?p=12327583#post12327583

Kroma-
02-18-2017, 06:46 AM
Why a SS tier lol ?

Just put Warden in S
A or S for warlord, he is one of the best char, but warden with his charge mixup is just op.
The 2 best assassins are PK ( when they will fix her stabs bug ) and orochi, they have the best zone attack for duel, they should go to A
Nobushi has a great kit and the best range she should go to A
Shugoki in 1v1 can be a pain, since you cant dodge his charge when you are knocked against a wall, or atleast it is ****ing hard to do, his charge can also teleport on you. I would expect him to go to A or B for 1v1 only.
Kensei should go to B, his kit is decent if played well and his damage upgrade makes him deadly.
Berseker should go to C, maybe to B after they will fix his light attack free GB bug.
Lawbringer is decent but his combo are not that usefull in duel compared to others class ( a pain to kill tho ), he got the classic Parry + GB into heavy, he can feint etc so he is decent, he should go to C.
Valkyrie should be C, will see after her up tho.
Conqueror is C, cant normal feint, normal heavy does less dmg than anyone ( cant execute on critical ), charged heavy dont allow him to counter GB, block stance way weaker than warlord s one.
Raider is unfortunately D since he cant capitalize on parry like any other char.

nestharus
02-18-2017, 09:39 AM
Conquerer moved to D
Berserker moved to C
Kensei mmoved to B

Again, this tier list reflects where I think the characters will sit at post-patch. Valkyrie has an amazing toolkit and with the reduced recovery times, I think that she could be on par with Orochi at the top of A : ).

Marmiteinjars
02-18-2017, 11:12 AM
I think there should be seperate Tier lists for each of the game modes. Shugoki and Lawbringer can bring the pain in 4v4 game modes due to their CC and pressure potential but for 1v1s and 2v2s, Warden would be the highest potential candidate followed by the assasins because of their attack speed.

IamheiN
02-18-2017, 03:35 PM
Atleast people can see how much raiders need some sort of buff, right now they are pure ****

DaWeirdWAAAGH
02-18-2017, 05:31 PM
Low attack range/damage warden SS. 11/10.
Also you can cry about SHOULDER BASH!!!

Rhagius
02-18-2017, 06:00 PM
Low attack range/damage warden SS. 11/10.
Also you can cry about SHOULDER BASH!!!

warden does NOT have low range or damage, stop being salt

VoadorHolandes
02-18-2017, 07:47 PM
Well I'm glad it's acknowledged that Conqueror is garbage tier (at least in dueling). Who would have thought?!

nestharus
02-19-2017, 12:08 AM
One of Oroboro's subscribers found some bs bugs with Shugoki that puts him in SSS tier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVecAjlIkYQ


Have fun guys. Shugoki is officially the strongest character in the game now.

THlCC_DADDY
02-19-2017, 05:53 AM
One of Oroboro's subscribers found some bs bugs with Shugoki that puts him in SSS tier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVecAjlIkYQ


Have fun guys. Shugoki is officially the strongest character in the game now.

nah people been abusin that for long, thats why people sayin shugoki is top-tier. without that shugoki is raider tier in this parry meta.

DaWeirdWAAAGH
02-19-2017, 06:23 AM
warden does NOT have low range or damage, stop being salt

Sometimes after parry he can't reach target, because ...???

Rhagius
02-19-2017, 10:57 AM
Sometimes after parry he can't reach target, because ...???

That is not Warden specific, that depends on the enemies you fight and the distance between you before initiating the Parry. Nobushis are a fine example for this.

DaWeirdWAAAGH
02-19-2017, 11:41 AM
That is not Warden specific, that depends on the enemies you fight and the distance between you before initiating the Parry. Nobushis are a fine example for this.

Can't reach even pk sometimes, but i know ubisoft is retarted, so maybe it's normal.

nestharus
02-19-2017, 03:18 PM
For me, it wasn't that I couldn't reach them. It was that I did a guard break off of a parry and they cancelled it. Anyways, I think my timing was just slightly off and I went towards the end of the "bumrush to them" window, at which point they could tech it. The next day when I wasn't so tired, I was able to guard break them without being able to be tech'd no problem when parrying those same moves.