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View Full Version : [Nerf] A way to remove the turtle meta.



PendragonArtura
02-13-2017, 02:46 PM
There is an easy way to kill the defense turtle meta.

Just remove blocks from the game. Only allow parry.

Someone only blocking is 100% invincible. But if he have to parry everytime, a feint can land a hit.

It'll also make attack easiest than defense. So the battles will be more dynamics.

Waynedetta40k
02-13-2017, 02:51 PM
Nah makes spamming to easy but they could increase the dmg that goes trough the block.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 03:08 PM
There is an easy way to kill the defense turtle meta.

Just remove blocks from the game. Only allow parry.

Someone only blocking is 100% invincible. But if he have to parry everytime, a feint can land a hit.

It'll also make attack easiest than defense. So the battles will be more dynamics.


This would make the game unplayable for new players and every class would need complete overhauls of their moveset.

Furthermore, the problem lies with the power of parries and the weakness of feints. Blocking is fine, as long as chip-damage is increased.

Feints do not counter parries as they should. You can only feint a heavy attack at the beginning of the animation. You parry a heavy attack at the end of the animation. With enough experience, players can and already have perfected parrying at the last second, meaning feints will almost never work on them.

But even IF you fall for the feint, you can then cancel your own heavy attack that was supposed to be a parry!


The problem is that there is no counter in the game for parries AND that parries are the safest way to deal damage while not taking any AND that parries into unblockable GB are the only source of guaranteed damage in the game.

Possible solutions are the following:

1) Increase chip-damage from blocked heavy attacks significantly to punish repeated blocking without aggression. The player with more health at the end of the round wins to prevent ties. Simple fix for pure defense-only. Possibly introduce accumulating stamina-drain after repeated blocks to the same player to prevent still possible griefing and encourage active play even more.
Also makes feints more believable.

2) Remove guaranteed GB after parry - possibly the most frustrating way to reward parries and the only truly uncounterable mechanic in the game. At high-level play the biggest source of frustration. At low-level and mid-level play essentially the same as regular GB, which is just as hard to counter for a new player as getting a parry is. Biggest source of the strength of defence - most reliable and risk-free source of damage is tied to a defensive move (the parry).

3) To compensate for 2, because parrying should be rewarded highly (for gameplay-reasons), make next attack after parrying unblockable. This would actually result in the kinds of exchanges that are fun to have and fun to watch, parries going back and forth until someone messes up or runs out of stamina. It would also increase the importance of stamina, since you cant back out of these exchanges to regen it, without risking to get GB from your dodge. If the importance of stamina would be increased, such as regeneration lowered or counter guardbreaking while fatigued impossible, the stamina drain from parrying and the higher chipdamage from heavyattacks might already be enough reason to still encourage parrying, even without the unblockable attack suggested here.

4) Lower the stamina-cost of feints. A move that encourages high-level play and a varied offense, while not hurting the new-player experience in any way and is not frustrating in any way should not be punished this severely. A move that encourages activity in a game that currently favors defence should not be punished this severely.

possibly 5) Make it harder to parry attacks repeatedly, maybe by lowering the parry-window, maybe by making it possible to cancel heavy-attacks later into the animation, maybe both.


Generally, I believe this issue is easily fixable by tweaking parry and feint-windows and making creative use of the stamina mechanic. If a reflex-war, which suggestion 2) might lead into, is not what the devs envisioned for this game, adding some sort of stamina-cost for parries and increasing the penalty for being out of stamina (currently you just cant attack effectively, but you can just block everything easily still) for the defender could fix the issue in a more strategic resource-management way.

cwl14
02-13-2017, 06:07 PM
If someone is guarding just guard break them... If they counter the guard break just do some feints and then go to light attacks on another guard (top/left/right) and then start throwing in some guard breaks again...

Breikas.
02-13-2017, 06:12 PM
If someone is guarding just guard break them... If they counter the guard break just do some feints and then go to light attacks on another guard (top/left/right) and then start throwing in some guard breaks again...

This is probably how Ubisoft envisioned it, but a successful guardbreak only happens after a parry in high level play. Trying guardbreaks against decent players is just you losing your stamina due to a counterguardbreak. So the only way a guardbreak is useful (after a parry) also comes from playing defensive.

Inconsistent7
02-13-2017, 06:48 PM
Patience is a skill wall that can only be breached by mistakes.
This is the way the game should be. Nothing should change in this regard.

If someone is so incredibly good that they can literally defend against every and anything you throw at them, then they deserve not to take damage.
If both players are capable of this, then I think it's awesome that will end in a stalemate unless one of them makes a mistake.

I thoroughly enjoy the fact that whenever I take damage, I know I could've prevented if I had played differently.

Also, blocking alone is not unstoppable.
That's the whole point of unblockable attacks: They beat passive blocking every time, you have to actively defend with dodge or parry.

Fast, unpredictable attacks
Unblockables
Feints
Guard Breaks

Learn how to alternate between and use these properly and no human will be able to defend against you forever.

NiceBoatUS
02-13-2017, 07:18 PM
Patience is a skill wall that can only be breached by mistakes.
This is the way the game should be. Nothing should change in this regard.

If someone is so incredibly good that they can literally defend against every and anything you throw at them, then they deserve not to take damage.
If both players are capable of this, then I think it's awesome that will end in a stalemate unless one of them makes a mistake.

I thoroughly enjoy the fact that whenever I take damage, I know I could've prevented if I had played differently.

Also, blocking alone is not unstoppable.
That's the whole point of unblockable attacks: They beat passive blocking every time, you have to actively defend with dodge or parry.

Fast, unpredictable attacks
Unblockables
Feints
Guard Breaks

Learn how to alternate between and use these properly and no human will be able to defend against you forever.

This is horrible game design and it turns the game into a QTE. Besides, the risk-reward ratio is simply messed up. Let's analyze it by assigning some point values to basic strategies (0 = loss, 1 = tie, 2 = win).

Passive play, block only (PBO) : vs PBO 1 vs PPAR 1 vs AGGRO 0 TOTAL: 2
Passive play, parries (PPAR) vs PBO 1 vs PPAR 1 vs AGGRO 2 TOTAL: 4
Aggressive play (AGGRO) vs PBO 2 vs PPAR 0 vs AGGRO 1 TOTAL: 3

Some basic explanations:
PPAR wins with AGGRO because proper parries always trump attacks, regardless of feints.
AGGRO wins with PBO because it's impossible to be 100% accurate on defense and you aren't putting any damage in. HOWEVER, this should be considered a "soft", extremely frustrating, drawn-out win - so the game might actually require forcing the defender to guess vs a guard break in order for it to be healthy.

As you can see, any form of aggression is a losing strategy in For Honor. It's literally a fighting game without any fighting possible at the high level of play.

What needs to happen is making PPAR equal to AGGRO or making it lose to AGGRO. This would be possible if players had to commit to parries, so that parrying into a feint makes you take damage.
Then the game would allow for aggression, which would make it at the very least playable.

It's basic game theory/maths. It's mind-boggling how some people keep defending the current state of affairs when feints and guard breaks are so obviously broken/useless.

If Ubisoft wanted feint/GB to be meaningless, they wouldn't even put those options in the game.

Stankyfoot
02-14-2017, 02:27 AM
I think this is a pretty easy fix. Simply allow light attacks to be feinted as well, this way you can play with rhythm more and mess with your opponents sense of timing.