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View Full Version : Gamebreaking mechanics at high-level-play: Defensive Invulnerability



Robbeeeen
02-12-2017, 11:24 PM
After playing the beta, both theory and practice support the thesis that the following mechanic will possibly (and at ultra-high-level very probably) lead to potentially breaking the 1v1 Duel bracket. ALL other brackets do not have this issue.


Defensive Invulnerability. Should a player chose to only Parry, Dodge and Block, he will become invulnerable to any damage, if playing perfectly. Since every possible scenario in which a player can receive damage is telegraphed (and well within margins of human reaction time), it is possible for a player to never receive damage, should he chose to never attack.

How:

1) Basic attacks are telegraphed and can be blocked or parried.

2) Guardbreaks are telegraphed and can be counter-guardbroken.

two points many people are missing:
3) Feints are telegraphed and can be told apart from regular heavy attacks. With enough practice a player can tell when another player performs an actual heavy attack or a feint. This is due to the fact that the red reticule starts to blink when an attack is parriable - it does not do this when a player is feinting. And yes, it is very possible to get this right every time - many players already get this right the majority of time and the game is barely a weekend old. Imagine pro-players after weeks or months of practice.

4) Falling for a feint is cancellable in time to block an attack. EVEN if a player falls for a feint, the startup of the heavy attack that was supposed to be a parry is cancellable in time to perform a block or parry on the followup attack of the enemy.
Scenario: Player A feints a heavy attack. Player B falls for the feint and presses heavy attack himself, wanting to parry. Player A cancels his heavy attack and follows up with light attack. Player B sees the very noticeable cancel-animation and reacts in time to block the light attack. Even is the light attack comes from a different direction.


3) and 4) are too easy to perform on a regular basis. The mechanic that was supposed to make "not attacking" not viable (feinting) is too weak. At the absolute least, it should be impossible to perform 4 - this might allow enough room for mistakes to accumulate and damage to be dealt.

However - if somebody doesnt even attempt to parry and only tries to block, aiming to achieve a tie, he will have a VERY easy time doing this. Should a player get a 1 point lead in a match, he can chose to only block and evade any unblockables and the remaining matches will end in a tie.


Possible solutions:

0) Heavies shouldn't be cancelled into feints so early in the animation. It shouldn't be possible to prevent feinting a parry into a block. The cancel should happen at least a couple of frames later.

1) Increase chip-damage from blocked heavy attacks significantly to punish repeated blocking without aggression. The player with more health at the end of the round wins to prevent ties. Simple fix for pure defense-only. Possibly introduce accumulating stamina-drain after repeated blocks to the same player to prevent still possible griefing and encourage active play even more.
Also makes feints more believable.

2) Remove guaranteed GB after parry - possibly the most frustrating way to reward parries and the only truly uncounterable mechanic in the game. At high-level play the biggest source of frustration. At low-level and mid-level play essentially the same as regular GB, which is just as hard to counter for a new player as getting a parry is. Biggest source of the strength of defence - most reliable and risk-free source of damage is tied to a defensive move (the parry).

3) To compensate for 2, because parrying should be rewarded highly (for gameplay-reasons), make next attack after parrying unblockable. This would actually result in the kinds of exchanges that are fun to have and fun to watch, parries going back and forth until someone messes up or runs out of stamina. It would also increase the importance of stamina, since you cant back out of these exchanges to regen it, without risking to get GB from your dodge. If the importance of stamina would be increased, such as regeneration lowered or counter guardbreaking while fatigued impossible, the stamina drain from parrying and the higher chipdamage from heavyattacks might already be enough reason to still encourage parrying, even without the unblockable attack suggested here.

4) Lower the stamina-cost of feints. A move that encourages high-level play and a varied offense, while not hurting the new-player experience in any way and is not frustrating in any way should not be punished this severely. A move that encourages activity in a game that currently favors defence should not be punished this severely.


These, to my eye, don't hurt the new-player experience in any way and only affect high-level gameplay in a positive way, encouraging an exchange of blows.

YOGZULA
02-12-2017, 11:36 PM
Blocking costing stamina might work, but I think a simpler solution is to make parries techable. You get parried, you are given a window to tech is just like anything else so that you are not vulnerable to guaranteed damage afterward. The real problem with defensive play is that it is rewarded with unblockable damage. I would be fine with a game where defense play is rewarded with not taking damage. If parrying didn't exist, it wouldn't be a goof strategy to play super defensively. Sure, you might still be able to run down the block, but you'll never WIN doing it. You leave yourself the chance to make mistakes and take damage, whereas your opponent never will unless you attempt to attack.

Parrying is simply far too powerful of a mechanic and needs to stop rewarding free damage.

DSD_Breaker
02-12-2017, 11:42 PM
With this kind of threads popping up already over the whole forum. I agree.

While it is no problem when people are still learning the game, it will for sure be a problem when people get better. Since many players are already parring a lot of attacks, I guess this point will be reached very soon after release, making duels very slow and boring. Of course feinting is an option, but at some point, like you say, it will also not be enough anymore.



A simple way to resolve this issue is to make blocking cost more and more stamina after each performed block without performing an attack in return.
The value at which this debuff accumulates should of course be different depending on the character and entirely disabled in modes where a 1vX scenario is possible.

I like this idea. Like you mention it has to be implemented in a way which does not penalize 1vX situations (which in my opinion is easy, just reset the buff when a different player is blocked.)

TCTF_SWAT
02-12-2017, 11:46 PM
Heavy attacks cause chip damage and you gain a 3 block stance when you're hit. It's to prevent easily dominating someone when outnumbered. Otherwise If there was a 2+v1 situation the lone player would never win. Or at the very least have a .5 to 1% chance of winning.

Ryumanjisen
02-12-2017, 11:47 PM
Sadly, this is completely true.

I don't think the solution is making the blocks to cost stamina. I think the best way is to make the guard break impossible to counter on reaction, kinda like a classic fighting game. Make the gb startup faster and the frame window for the counter sooner, that way if you want to counter a guard break, you're comitting to make one... and the opponent can punish you with a light attack.

It's just a matter of rock/papers/scissors. But, right now, at high level play, we're playing Street Fighter without throws and chip damage: you can virtually block everything and not losing a single slice of your lifebar.

Robbeeeen
02-12-2017, 11:50 PM
I don't think the solution is making the blocks to cost stamina. I think the best way is to make the guard break impossible to counter on reaction, kinda like a classic fighting game. Make the gb startup faster and the frame window for the counter sooner, that way if you want to counter a guard break, you're comitting to make one... and the opponent can punish you with a light attack.
.

This will make the "Heavy" classes unplayable. Swing-times of light-attacks or too long for them.

Kintoun
02-12-2017, 11:52 PM
TLDR; this game isn't actually rock, paper, scissors.

The odd thing is many fighting games have already solved this problem. Why not model this game after them?

TCTF_SWAT
02-12-2017, 11:59 PM
Sadly, this is completely true.

I don't think the solution is making the blocks to cost stamina. I think the best way is to make the guard break impossible to counter on reaction, kinda like a classic fighting game. Make the gb startup faster and the frame window for the counter sooner, that way if you want to counter a guard break, you're comitting to make one... and the opponent can punish you with a light attack.

It's just a matter of rock/papers/scissors. But, right now, at high level play, we're playing Street Fighter without throws and chip damage: you can virtually block everything and not losing a single slice of your lifebar.

Heavy attacks cause chip damage. Also Bezerskers Gb throw causes a small amount of damage as well.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 12:02 AM
Heavy attacks cause chip damage. Also Bezerskers Gb throw causes a small amount of damage as well.

Currently, the amount of "chip damage" you receive if laughable. You would need to eat dozens of full heavy-attacks to remove a bar. Also, you cannot die from this damage because your last bar regenerates to full if you havent taken any damage in a while.

YOGZULA
02-13-2017, 12:04 AM
Are you sure heavy attacks deal chip damage? Doesn't seem that way at all. I'm only aware of a perk that Conq unlocks that allows his heavies to do chip damage, but if you weren't claiming right now that all heavies do chip damage i'd be certain that they didn't.

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 12:06 AM
This will make the "Heavy" classes unplayable. Swing-times of light-attacks or too long for them.

Why? If adjust properly, any light attack would still break through the gb. But you could be right, perhaps the best (and simpler solution) is just adjusting the window for the gb break.


Heavy attacks cause chip damage. Also Bezerskers Gb throw causes a small amount of damage as well.

Are we sure heavy attacks do chip damage with no gear on? Because "block defense" and "attack on block" numbers are even if you don't equip any kind of gear.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 12:10 AM
Why? If adjust properly, any light attack would still break through the gb. But you could be right, perhaps the best (and simpler solution) is just adjusting the window for the gb break.

Light-attacks cannot be cancelled. If the only way to protect against a GB is to light-attack in advance or be out of range, then heavy classes will get parried every time with their slow light-attack swing or eat every GB thrown at them.

Kroma-
02-13-2017, 12:13 AM
two points many people are missing:
3) Feints are telegraphed and can be told apart from regular heavy attacks. With enough practice a player can tell when another player performs an actual heavy attack or a feint. This is due to the fact that the red reticule starts to blink when an attack is parriable - it does not do this when a player is feinting. And yes, it is very possible to get this right every time - many players already get this right the majority of time and the game is barely a weekend old. Imagine pro-players after weeks or months of practice.

4) Falling for a feint is cancellable in time to block an attack. EVEN if a player falls for a feint, the startup of the heavy attack that was supposed to be a parry is cancellable in time to perform a block or parry on the followup attack of the enemy.
Scenario: Player A feints a heavy attack. Player B falls for the feint and presses heavy attack himself, wanting to parry. Player A cancels his heavy attack and follows up with light attack. Player B sees the very noticeable cancel-animation and reacts in time to block the light attack. Even is the light attack comes from a different direction.

I m sorry but you are a bit wrong,
3- The feint window is before the reticule starts to blink but the opponent still see a red one not blinking until the feint actually goes on. But you are right in the way that you should wait before parrying, just wait until the red reticule start to blink, and if it it is a light attack then just block it. So the best way to parry the safest way possible is always trying to parry at the last moment sine you will either block the attack if you are too late or parry it. This may not be the case for assassin everytime since they got a timing on their block.
4- You are both wrong and right about it, it depend on the timing of your feint. The feint is not instant, there are starting frame from the heavy you cant instantly cancel an attack. That is when you can get hit. It only work if you don t get hit right away, which can be the case against most character but a fast character with fast light or a zone attack can still hit you during the feint frames.
So it is more likely that good player will apply the 3- and wait at the last moment to parry, it is way safer.

Otherwise, i agree with you that defense is strong right now, and it is ****ing hard to beat a good blocking player, you can only just wait for him to attack and counter it. But in a sense if you could pass defense easily why bother defending then ? I think it is pretty much balanced, you have to force your opponent to attack if you want to beat him, or bait his block with mixup. I just think classes should have more mix up to deal against good defense rather than nerfing said defense.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 12:20 AM
I m sorry but you are a bit wrong,
3- The feint window is before the reticule starts to blink but the opponent still see a red one not blinking until the feint actually goes on. But you are right in the way that you should wait before parrying, just wait until the red reticule start to blink, and if it it is a light attack then just block it. So the best way to parry the safest way possible is always trying to parry at the last moment sine you will either block the attack if you are too late or parry it. This may not be the case for assassin everytime since they got a timing on their block.
4- You are both wrong and right about it, it depend on the timing of your feint. The feint is not instant, there are starting frame from the heavy you cant instantly cancel an attack. That is when you can get hit by an heavy. If you fail the parry frame just before getting hit, feinting the attack will still fail. It only work if you really fail your parry like by a lot, if you started your heavy at the same time or before the opponent start to strike.
So the 4- is just a stupid scenario since good player will never try to parry too soon, or they will get hit, you can only do that with conqueror since heavy attack can be charged and thus you can still block even if you fail your parry frame.
So it is more likely that good player will apply the 3- and wait at the last moment to parry, it is way safer.

Otherwise, i agree with you that defense is strong right now, and it is ****ing hard to beat a good blocking player, you can only just wait for him to attack and counter it. But in a sense if you could pass defense easily why bother defending then ? I think it is almost balanced, and you have to force your opponent to attack if you want to beat him. Maybe make parry more harder by making feint better ( more cancel frames possible, you should be able to cancel the attack until the red reticule start to glow which is not the case, the cancel cant be extended more than a few frames and so the 3- apply and your will never get baited. ).

3) What I meant is that you can press your "parry" button only when the reticule blinks. You will NEVER fall for a feint that way. Doing that is easily possible within human reaction time, since only heavy attacks can be feinted. If light attacks would be feintable, the story would be a bit different.

4) This is not what I meant. What I mean is that if you fall for a feint and initiate a failed parry, you can cancel that parry (because its essentially a heavy-attack) and still block whatever followup the feinter is doing. It is essentially a fail-safe, if you react too soon on your parry - you can still correct your mistake by cancelling your failed parry into a block.

Wrander
02-13-2017, 12:20 AM
They have to increase the ammount and effectivness of mixups you can do in the offense. Attacking different sides and mixing them up with heavy attacks, throws, and unblockables should create something between a reaction and mindgamefight like for example in street fighter. At the same time defending shouldn't be so advantegous leading into many direct hits. Defending should create momentum to do your own offense, preassure and mixups.

And revenge mode feels imo like the worst solution for fighting multiple enemies. Just dosen't feel right espacially when you can get it even faster with better gear.

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 12:21 AM
Light-attacks cannot be cancelled. If the only way to protect against a GB is to light-attack in advance or be out of range, then heavy classes will get parried every time with their slow light-attack swing or eat every GB thrown at them.

You could still beat a gb countering it with another. You would have to do it right at the same time your opponent initiatie it. In other words, you would have to predict it, not react to it. That's the key problem here.


I m sorry but you are a bit wrong,
3- The feint window is before the reticule starts to blink but the opponent still see a red one not blinking until the feint actually goes on. But you are right in the way that you should wait before parrying, just wait until the red reticule start to blink, and if it it is a light attack then just block it. So the best way to parry the safest way possible is always trying to parry at the last moment sine you will either block the attack if you are too late or parry it. This may not be the case for assassin everytime since they got a timing on their block.
4- You are both wrong and right about it, it depend on the timing of your feint. The feint is not instant, there are starting frame from the heavy you cant instantly cancel an attack. That is when you can get hit by an heavy. If you fail the parry frame just before getting hit, feinting the attack will still fail. It only work if you really fail your parry like by a lot, if you started your heavy at the same time or before the opponent start to strike.
So the 4- is just a stupid scenario since good player will never try to parry too soon, or they will get hit, you can only do that with conqueror since heavy attack can be charged and thus you can still block even if you fail your parry frame.
So it is more likely that good player will apply the 3- and wait at the last moment to parry, it is way safer.

Otherwise, i agree with you that defense is strong right now, and it is ****ing hard to beat a good blocking player, you can only just wait for him to attack and counter it. But in a sense if you could pass defense easily why bother defending then ? I think it is almost balanced, and you have to force your opponent to attack if you want to beat him. Maybe make parry more harder by making feint better ( more cancel frames possible, you should be able to cancel the attack until the red reticule start to glow which is not the case, the cancel cant be extended more than a few frames and so the 3- apply and your will never get baited. ).

What would happen if not you or your opponent want to attack? The game would end on a tie.

TCTF_SWAT
02-13-2017, 12:22 AM
Yes all heavy attacks deal chip damage. I was fiddling around with a friend in custom duels (no gear stats either) and heavies deal chip damage. It's not alot but it's there. The berserkers GB throw also deals small damage. The only one too all other throws deal no damage. Lights deal no chip either.

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 12:27 AM
Yes all heavy attacks deal chip damage. I was fiddling around with a friend in custom duels (no gear stats either) and heavies deal chip damage. It's not alot but it's there. The berserkers GB throw also deals small damage. The only one too all other throws deal no damage. Lights deal no chip either.

Good to know, thanks for the tip. Then another way to prevent this would be going with the traditions: make the one with most life wins when the time is over, instead of a tie.

Kroma-
02-13-2017, 12:32 AM
4) This is not what I meant. What I mean is that if you fall for a feint and initiate a failed parry, you can cancel that parry (because its essentially a heavy-attack) and still block whatever followup the feinter is doing. It is essentially a fail-safe, if you react too soon on your parry - you can still correct your mistake by cancelling your failed parry into a block.
And feinting is not instant like i said you got some vulnerability frame where you can get hit. Just try to parry an attack too soon and feint it, you will still get hit if you feinted too close from getting hit. So what you said is not true in every scenario. I edited my post to be more clear but it was a bit too late :p

Anyway your points are valid, still i think nerfing defense is not the solution, you should be able to be invincible if you are a god, but character should have more mixup available to beat such defense. Like the warden shoulder bash mixup which is the best mixup to get through defense, still you can avoid it, other mixup looks bad in comparison, thats is why good defense is too easy to achieve.

TCTF_SWAT
02-13-2017, 12:38 AM
Good to know, thanks for the tip. Then another way to prevent this would be going with the traditions: make the one with most life wins when the time is over, instead of a tie.

This could change come the 14th. So I advise grab a buddy and hit the lab. Fill up your head with knowledge. You'll be way ahead of the game and the community that way.

There are some things that I would like changed as well. Such as if tow players Gb eachother then it should end in a tech AND the getting teched does not allow you to fall into hazards. Also DOt damage shouldn't kill either. Give em' the magic pixel. It takes roughly 5 seconds for health to START regen (when on your last bar of health). then it takes roughly 2 seconds to fill back up from the magic pixel area. A PK's bleed lasts 8 seconds. So in total that's 15 seconds of not being able to regen that last bar of health. But you can rest assured that you won't die from bleed. But now you gotta worry about chip damage.

StumpyZero
02-13-2017, 12:39 AM
I have the same concerns as you, OP. High-level duels turn into staring contests with either duelist only daring to throw out their quickest moves in the hopes that the other person can't react quickly enough to counter it. I was hoping this game would be an awesome spectator e-sport, but I don't think that'll ever happen with the game being the way it is right now. They can add all the new maps and characters they want but none of it will be meaningfully sustaining without a solid foundation of in-depth game-play to keep highly skilled players interested.

Granted we've only played the game for a few days, but it was long enough for me to see some serious flaws in the fundamental mechanics at a high level of play. I'd really, really like to hear someone from Ubisoft weigh in on this issue.

Icepick_Trotsky
02-13-2017, 12:40 AM
To be honest guys, you ruined my day (maybe even week). I was so sure this game gonna be awesome, but now you made me doubt and I'm not sure if I should invest my time in this game.



Anyway your points are valid, still i think nerfing defense is not the solution, you should be able to be invincible if you are good.
Why???? It's impossible in reality. In real fight you are actually compelled to be offensive because it's certain that eventually one of the incoming atacks will slip through your defense - it's just a matter of time, therefore you must atack to break through enemy's defense first, before he does that.

Egotistic_Ez
02-13-2017, 12:41 AM
Heavy attacks deal chip damage, but it's a pathetic amount. Up it and that fixes block imo, especially since most classes don't break chains, leaving the attacker with the initiative.

Parry is the bane of this game, and feints are badly designed. Hell, hard feints aren't even feints, they're just attack cancels. I'd be tempted to just remove both of them from the game. lol

In the end, the problem is that none of the dev team are top tier players. Where good players see impervious defence mechanics, the devs see risk VS reward because they don't have the skill to pull off their own mechanics reliably.

Kroma-
02-13-2017, 12:43 AM
Why???? It's impossible in reality. In real fight you are actually compelled to be offensive because it's certain that eventually one of the incoming atacks will slip through your defense

Ye so attack need to be buffed not defense nerfed.

Kroma-
02-13-2017, 12:46 AM
Heavy attacks deal chip damage, but it's a pathetic amount. Up it and that fixes block imo, especially since most classes don't break chains, leaving the attacker with the initiative.

I agree with that.

The thing is, parry allow you to GB, if you don t parry you cant GB a good opponent unless he make a mistake. So how do you nerf parry without make it not worth the risk ? Remove GB guaranteed, and parry can only secure a light attack ?

If you increase block dmg it may be good since, if you block the heavy you get lets say a light attack dmg ( 0.5 bar ), but if you parry it, you can get a free light which is 0.5 bar aswell. So it could makes things even.

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 12:48 AM
Ye so attack need to be buffed not defense nerfed.

Buffing the attack is esentially nerfing defense, you know.

Right now, defending is 100% reliable. If you "buff" attacking by giving characters options to break the impentrable defense, then it "lose" that 100% reliability.

Hence, a nerf.

Wrander
02-13-2017, 12:52 AM
Ye so attack need to be buffed not defense nerfed.
The Problem is, that defending gives you guaranteed hits duo to parry, dodging and counterattacking. This and beeing invincible just because you can react to 5 different symbols on the screen lead to that bad gameplay we have once we are good enough to react to this symbols. Defending should be a mindgame where you can try to get momentum to start your own offensiv or make parrys/counterhits atleast very risky for example like in dark souls or street fighter.

Kroma-
02-13-2017, 12:52 AM
Ye but if you add more mixup, it is still potentially possible to be impenetrable, but will be much harder. In some fighting game you can be litterally invincible but they are too many mixup that it makes it harder to actually defend every time. So it is not a defense nerf in this case. It is just harder since it is potentially 100% reliable.

That is why you see only the same attack pattern in high level play, because they are the less risky. We need more of them, because when you know them you can counter them, and character dont have more than 1 or 2. I only see the warden with 2 actually. So that is why it is so easy to defend.

But you can see it in the other way around and nerfind defense allow more mixup to be viable without making the game more complexe.

So...

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 12:57 AM
Ye but if you add more mixup, it is still potentially possible to be impenetrable, but will be much harder. In some fighting game you can be litterally invincible but they are too many mixup that it makes it harder to actually defend every time. So it is not a defense nerf in this case. It is just harder since it is potentially 100% reliable.

As far as I know, and I've played my good number of fighting games, there is no game where you can be literally invincible. Theorically you can avoid being hit forever, but only if you make your guesses correctly every single time you're attacked. And we all know you will eventually fail a guess.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 01:01 AM
What bad side-effects would the following changes have:

1) Increase chip-damage

2) Remove guaranteed GB after parry

3) To compensate for 2, because parrying should be rewarded highly (for gameplay-reasons), make next attack after parrying unblockable. This would actually result in the kinds of exchanges that are fun to have and fun to watch, parries going back and forth until someone messes up or runs out of stamina. It would also increase the importance of stamina, since you cant back out of these exchanges to regen it, without risking to get GB from your dodge.

4) Lower the stamina-cost of feints. A move that encourages high-level play and mindgames, while not hurting the new-player experience in any way and is not frustrating in any way should not be punished this severely. A move that encourages activity in a game that currently favors defence should not be punished this severely.



These, to my eye, don't hurt the new-player experience in any way and only affect high-level gameplay in a positive way, encouraging an exchange of blows.

Am I missing something?

TCTF_SWAT
02-13-2017, 01:02 AM
We're humans. We can't react to everything. As the saying goes "action is quicker then reaction."

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 01:04 AM
We're humans. We can't react to everything. As the saying goes "action is quicker then reaction."

That depends on the speed required to react. Right now, everything in the game is reliably avoidable with average reaction times.

TCTF_SWAT
02-13-2017, 01:08 AM
That depends on the speed required to react. Right now, everything in the game is reliably avoidable with average reaction times.

That's not completely true. Again, we're humans. It's like saying "pro players never get hit by 27 frame overheads in fighters....which they do.)

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 01:13 AM
At the same time, you don't want high level to be nothing but mix-up based offense. At that point you're just playing rock, paper, scissors. That's what it is right now with something like Warden's shoulder cancels. More of that wouldn't really fix anything.

I think there might be a pretty easy way to fix a majority of what's wrong with the game. They need to turn off the fight UI, at least for ranked. I experimented with turning it off this beta, it really makes just basic defending a lot harder. Still very doable, but you can't block everything like you can now. That won't fix everything of course, but I've had some ideas that might fix things. But without the fight UI certain characters will need to be rebalanced. The Peacekeeper's attacks are much harder to block without the UI than every other character.

- Make the counter guard brake window smaller so it can only be reacted to if you anticipated it.
- Make backdashes immune to guard brake.
- Counter hits and hitting dashing enemies should do increased damage.
- Move parry to light attack so it can't be feinted for safe parry attempts.
- Tighten the parry window considerably.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 01:16 AM
That's not completely true. Again, we're humans. It's like saying "pro players never get hit by 27 frame overheads in fighters....which they do.)

The difference there is that they fall for the overhead because they're preoccupied with trying to block and unreactable low. There's a difference between raw reaction and reacting to something you anticipated. In this game, everything can be reacted to raw, no need to think at all. Even if it's not 100%, it's still way too high.

TCTF_SWAT
02-13-2017, 01:21 AM
Well duh. People still get hit by raw slow moves. Even at the highest of play. It's everywhere.

Look at R.mika from SFV. even still at high level play she was still getting away with raw charged st.hk's for days.

ShiroHyo
02-13-2017, 01:22 AM
We can have this discussion again, when players reach the level where they become invincible because of neverfailing inhuman reactions. Someone here even mentions the game is ruined now for him. Still none of you has become invincible yet. Dont talk down the sky when you cant even touch it.
Very skilled players can parry reliably , but will never be able to avoid damage through defense alone. A part of avoiding damage is being proactive with countering, which again opens opportunities for the enemy.
Also no player who theoretically would be able to parry all damage and force draws would ever reach high rankings. A draw is a loss. Atleast you gain no mmr.

YOGZULA
02-13-2017, 01:25 AM
I agree with that.

The thing is, parry allow you to GB, if you don t parry you cant GB a good opponent unless he make a mistake. So how do you nerf parry without make it not worth the risk ? Remove GB guaranteed, and parry can only secure a light attack ?

If you increase block dmg it may be good since, if you block the heavy you get lets say a light attack dmg ( 0.5 bar ), but if you parry it, you can get a free light which is 0.5 bar aswell. So it could makes things even.

Parrying dealing massive stamina damage and stumbling your opponent backward is already enough. As a mechanic it should relieve pressure off the defender and allow them to switch to offense, which I think it succeeds plenty well in doing via the stun and stamina damage. It does not need to offer a free GB and heavy attack. With how strong parrying is, it's not worth it to attack. It's not worth it to do anything BUT parry. It's a low risk high reward mechanic, especially when you get used to the timing of it.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 01:28 AM
At the same time, you don't want high level to be nothing but mix-up based offense. At that point you're just playing rock, paper, scissors. That's what it is right now with something like Warden's shoulder cancels. More of that wouldn't really fix anything.

I think there might be a pretty easy way to fix a majority of what's wrong with the game. They need to turn off the fight UI, at least for ranked. I experimented with turning it off this beta, it really makes just basic defending a lot harder. Still very doable, but you can't block everything like you can now. That won't fix everything of course, but I've had some ideas that might fix things. But without the fight UI certain characters will need to be rebalanced. The Peacekeeper's attacks are much harder to block without the UI than every other character.

- Make the counter guard brake window smaller so it can only be reacted to if you anticipated it.
- Make backdashes immune to guard brake.
- Counter hits and hitting dashing enemies should do increased damage.
- Move parry to light attack so it can't be feinted for safe parry attempts.
- Tighten the parry window considerably.

Your first change is a haaaard one to make. Taking into account how powerful GBs are, especially on ledges, how frustrating GBs are for new players, how you feel like you deserved to get punished when you missed the counter and how good it felt when you mastered the counter reliably, I would be hesitant to change that mechanic. The problem is parries, not GBs.

Your fourth suggestions would make a trait of the Warlord class obsolete. The same could be achieved by giving the player a slight cooldown to his defence after cancelling a heavy, while not affecting his offense. This way you can attack after feinting, but cant block after failing a parry.

Your last change might be unnecessary with other changes already in effect. A slight increase in difficulty is in my opinion safely warranted though.

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 01:28 AM
Well duh. People still get hit by raw slow moves. Even at the highest of play. It's everywhere.

Look at R.mika from SFV. even still at high level play she was still getting away with raw charged st.hk's for days.

Yeah, but it's because Parlah said: in SFV you are preoccupied thinking about the options the attacker has, esentially predicting if they are going to attack or grab you (at the most essential level).

In For Honor, right now, you can raw react to anything the attacker throws at you.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 01:33 AM
We can have this discussion again, when players reach the level where they become invincible because of neverfailing inhuman reactions. Someone here even mentions the game is ruined now for him. Still none of you has become invincible yet. Dont talk down the sky when you cant even touch it.
Very skilled players can parry reliably , but will never be able to avoid damage through defense alone. A part of avoiding damage is being proactive with countering, which again opens opportunities for the enemy.
Also no player who theoretically would be able to parry all damage and force draws would ever reach high rankings. A draw is a loss. Atleast you gain no mmr.

Its not only possible, it has already been done and the game isnt even out yet.
Watch this clip:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322

Not taking damage after you won 1 round will be a viable tactic to make all other rounds a draw and with the match, or to avoid losing after you have taken a bunch of damage already.

Many people raise this issue in a BETA. It will be a wide-spread issue in high-level ranked play within weeks after launch. And if you know anything about competitive games is that the meta follows whats working and what streamers do. This will outright KILL the game, because the worst case scenario (from a gameplay/fun perspective) is when nobody is attacking and games end in a tie.

And we havent even talked about how you build revenge much faster than the attacker yet...

YOGZULA
02-13-2017, 01:34 AM
Yeah, but it's because Parlah said: in SFV you are preoccupied thinking about the options the attacker has, esentially predicting if they are going to attack or grab you (at the most essential level).

In For Honor, right now, you can raw react to anything the attacker throws at you.

i think allowing players to react to just about any option is fine. the game could still work just fine without counter guard breaking, considering the counter to a guard break is to attack into it, but the real problem is that there are only two things that CAN'T be reacted to - parries and deflects. Therein is the problem of defense being far too powerful of an option.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 01:36 AM
Well duh. People still get hit by raw slow moves. Even at the highest of play. It's everywhere.

Look at R.mika from SFV. even still at high level play she was still getting away with raw charged st.hk's for days.

Because in that game, and all fighting games, a vast majority of the offence is unreactable. If Mika's dropkick was all you had to worry about, you'd never get hit by it. But you have so much to defend against in that game, almost none of which can be reacted to. That means you have to be thinking about what they're going to do. But no one can strategize that perfectly at the speed a fighting game plays at. This creates a constant stream of holes in a player's defense that can be exploited. In this game, you don't need to think. You don't need to worry about nearly anything, meaning all your brain power is devoted to reaction.

I think nay-sayers are focusing too much on the supposed skill ceiling that high level players are talking about right now. It's true that because of human error, no one will be truly untouchable, and the game does have ways to actually open your opponent up. The same can be said in fighting games. Someone could theoritically have a perfect defense.

The difference is that fighting games have a skill ceiling so high that no human could ever touch it. This game does not. This game's skill ceiling is pitifully low. Even if mistakes will still be made, the fact is that at high level it is frustrating and unfun because of how overwhelmingly limited it is to reliably attack your opponent.

TCTF_SWAT
02-13-2017, 01:42 AM
Then explain to me how tekken fares so well then? It's on the slow of the FG's. I honestly could compare tekken's speed to FH.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 01:48 AM
Your first change is a haaaard one to make. Taking into account how powerful GBs are, especially on ledges, how frustrating GBs are for new players, how you feel like you deserved to get punished when you missed the counter and how good it felt when you mastered the counter reliably, I would be hesitant to change that mechanic. The problem is parries, not GBs.

Your fourth suggestions would make a trait of the Warlord class obsolete. The same could be achieved by giving the player a slight cooldown to his defence after cancelling a heavy, while not affecting his offense. This way you can attack after feinting, but cant block after failing a parry.

Your last change might be unnecessary with other changes already in effect. A slight increase in difficulty is in my opinion safely warranted though.

You make good points. Of course I'm no game designer, but at the very least I think my suggestions would be better than what exists now. Surely if fight UI was to be turned off GBs would need to be made less rewarding. Your suggestion to put a defense buffer after a feint is excellent. Much better than my idea. Maybe not considerably, but it needs to be tightened. I played many matches without the fight UI and was still parrying pretty often. And unblockables remain free parries.

Though I have to disagree about you dismissing GBs as a problem. The basic rock, paper, scissors of the game is broken. Between attacking, blocking, and GBs, GBs are irrelevant. They are countered almost every time. At that point you're playing Rock, paper. So of course you have no reason not to defend. GBs need to be made unreactable, but attacking also needs to be brought up to or above the viability level an unreactable GB would have.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 01:49 AM
The difference is that fighting games have a skill ceiling so high that no human could ever touch it. This game does not. This game's skill ceiling is pitifully low. Even if mistakes will still be made, the fact is that at high level it is frustrating and unfun because of how overwhelmingly limited it is to reliably attack your opponent.

I disagree.

Fighting games often times are more mind-game than a mechanical game. "Skill" usually refers to "mechanical skill", being able to execute the tools available to your disposal quickly and precisely.

For Honor is refreshingly different from fighting-games because it focuses more on the mechanical skill component than the mind-games. I find it incredibly frustrating in games whenever I couldn't have prevented something via sheer mechanical skill - this is the reason why CounterStrike and DarkSouls are so addictive. There is very little "bullsh**" and you always have the feeling that you couldve done something better or that you can do it if you practice more. The quintessential core of a skill-based game.

For Honor can stay that way. It should not morph into some pseudo-fighting game. It just needs a few tweaks to encourage offense over defense and to make certain high-level mechanics a bit different (for suggestions: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1576116-Gamebreaking-mechanics-at-high-level-play-Defensive-Invulnerability?p=12296675&viewfull=1#post12296675)

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 01:51 AM
Then explain to me how tekken fares so well then? It's on the slow of the FG's. I honestly could compare tekken's speed to FH.

A vast majority of Tekken's moves are unreactable. Soul Caliber, which is even slower, that's still the case. I think a more comparable game is Dark Souls PvP, and look at what it is. Very hard to hit someone because they can roll through most attacks.

TCTF_SWAT
02-13-2017, 01:53 AM
Well I would call BS on tekken and SC parts..but I haven't played them in years so no beuno for me.

DS's however.....that series is just an utter mess from every angle.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 01:59 AM
I disagree.

Fighting games often times are more mind-game than a mechanical game. "Skill" usually refers to "mechanical skill", being able to execute the tools available to your disposal quickly and precisely.

For Honor is refreshingly different from fighting-games because it focuses more on the mechanical skill component than the mind-games. I find it incredibly frustrating in games whenever I couldn't have prevented something via sheer mechanical skill - this is the reason why CounterStrike and DarkSouls are so addictive. There is very little "bullsh**" and you always have the feeling that you couldve done something better or that you can do it if you practice more. The quintessential core of a skill-based game.

For Honor can stay that way. It should not morph into some pseudo-fighting game. It just needs a few tweaks to encourage offense over defense and to make certain high-level mechanics a bit different (for suggestions: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1576116-Gamebreaking-mechanics-at-high-level-play-Defensive-Invulnerability?p=12296675&viewfull=1#post12296675)

It's true that in fighting games, mechanical skill is not something to rely on. It's the baseline. Good execution is required before you can even be considered playing the game. Still, execution is a very important part of fighting games that even pro players manage to screw up. Evo moment 37 is the ultimate example of how mechanical skill still very valuable in fighting games. But it can't be all a competitive game relies on. Every competitive action game relies on mind games. Even shooters and MOBAs.

When I think of the ultimate example of a mechanically skill based game, I think of something like Devil May Cry. Reaction, execution, awareness, and timing are constantly being pushed to an extremely high level to play those games. There's no mind games at all in those games because you're fighting enemies, not players. I think a lot of DMC players, myself included, would say that competitive DMC would be awful. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think competitive games are the place to focus solely on mechanical skill.

RazhemUplay
02-13-2017, 02:00 AM
Got beaten to the punch by another post.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 02:00 AM
Why does this game need unreactable moves? They are only a source of frustration, especially for new players.

The aim should be to make it almost impossible to prevent certain moves with pure mechanical skill. Being told "react faster" is much better than hearing "you cant prevent it, you need to predict it".

A parry triggering a buff that makes your next immediate attack unblockable for instance could create such a scenario. You CAN parry that light unblockable that's coming your way, but you're not going to succeed every time. And if players are, tighten the parry window.

I'd hate to see an unpreventable mechanic in this game.

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 02:01 AM
i think allowing players to react to just about any option is fine. the game could still work just fine without counter guard breaking, considering the counter to a guard break is to attack into it, but the real problem is that there are only two things that CAN'T be reacted to - parries and deflects. Therein is the problem of defense being far too powerful of an option.


Parries are not the problem. In fact, the best way to break an opponent defense is baiting a parry, so the parries being powerful is a good thing. And even then, looks like you can react to a failed parry and cancel your unwanted heavy attack.

The real problems are the reactions. If you allow the players to react about any option, in a couple of months you'll have a game where the good players would be untouchable if they want to. That will destroy any though of high level play in For Honor. It's sad, but it's true.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 02:02 AM
DS's however.....that series is just an utter mess from every angle.

You got that right. I adore those games even with their problems, but that PvP is horrific to me. And I think it's a problem that Souls PvP comes to mind when I think of For Honor. Honestly what really comes to mind is just play a game of actual rock, paper, scissors with somebody. It's very similar to playing For Honor at high level.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 02:06 AM
Why does this game need unreactable moves? They are only a source of frustration, especially for new players.

This is why people struggle to get into fighting games. At the same time, making everything so easily reactable results in the high level stalemates we have now. For Honor is both too little and too much like a fighting game.

Stankyfoot
02-13-2017, 02:11 AM
I think that people need to realise how feinting works beyond the cursery knowledge that they've picked up from fighting games. Its not enough to simply feint and expect that to be an end-all solution for opening up an attack, you need to also use them to condition your opponent to expect certain follow ups. You need to break them out of their flow-state and make them think.

emmdeekizzlar
02-13-2017, 02:13 AM
Not a big fan of the self proclaimed high-level players that exist after 3 days of a beta, no ranked mode and limited leaderboards.

There are a lot of really quick tools like warden and orochi zone attack, warlord headbutt, conq shield bash etc that imo are gonna give people enough pause for concern that they just can't sit there blocking everything.

Are you going to be able to walk up and naked heavy attack someone who knows what they're doing? Nope.

Are people gonna be crafty enough with the tools at their disposal to find openings and punish really defensive players? I think so but we'll see.

Defense is good but let's not get hyperbolic and start pretending we're all Floyd Mayweather just yet.

MajorlyXxPwned
02-13-2017, 02:15 AM
To be honest guys, you ruined my day (maybe even week). I was so sure this game gonna be awesome, but now you made me doubt and I'm not sure if I should invest my time in this game.


Why???? It's impossible in reality. In real fight you are actually compelled to be offensive because it's certain that eventually one of the incoming atacks will slip through your defense - it's just a matter of time, therefore you must atack to break through enemy's defense first, before he does that.

In a real fight you are compelled to be offensive? There are plenty of real fights where being offensive did nothing but get that person destroyed by a counter attack. In reality it's not about who is offensive first it's about who makes the first mistake. That's what this game is more or less about, be as offensive as you want but, make a mistake and pay for it.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 02:17 AM
This is why people struggle to get into fighting games. At the same time, making everything so easily reactable results in the high level stalemates we have now. For Honor is both too little and too much like a fighting game.

Agreed, thats why the high-level moves of parrying and feinting need tweaking. Not the baseline GB.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 02:19 AM
Agreed, thats why the high-level moves of parrying and feinting need tweaking. Not the baseline GB.

Come on, dude. GBs are broken. They do nothing at high level. They break no guards, they only let you increase punish off parries.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 02:22 AM
Come on, dude. GBs are broken. They do nothing at high level. They break no guards, they only let you increase punish off parries.

Not every mechanic needs to be effective in high-level play.

Why on earth should the most powerful and only unreactable mechanic in the game be on a button-press? A mechanic that can lead to instant death near a ledge? It's just the wrong approach in my opinion.

The devs got it right on that one: the best mechanic in the game currently is the one that is hardest to pull off. It's just that its too good and too easy to pull off.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 02:23 AM
Not a big fan of the self proclaimed high-level players that exist after 3 days of a beta, no ranked mode and limited leaderboards.

There are a lot of really quick tools like warden and orochi zone attack, warlord headbutt, conq shield bash etc that imo are gonna give people enough pause for concern that they just can't sit there blocking everything.

Are you going to be able to walk up and naked heavy attack someone who knows what they're doing? Nope.

Are people gonna be crafty enough with the tools at their disposal to find openings and punish really defensive players? I think so but we'll see.

Defense is good but let's not get hyperbolic and start pretending we're all Floyd Mayweather just yet.

How quickly players have reached high-level should be a testament to how low the skill ceiling in this game is. I've been playing this game for months in various tests and this has been the case the whole time. There are tools to open people up. It is very possible to attack your opponent. But the number of reliable tools is so low that the game becomes boring.

Ryumanjisen
02-13-2017, 02:24 AM
Not a big fan of the self proclaimed high-level players that exist after 3 days of a beta, no ranked mode and limited leaderboards.

There are a lot of really quick tools like warden and orochi zone attack, warlord headbutt, conq shield bash etc that imo are gonna give people enough pause for concern that they just can't sit there blocking everything.

Are you going to be able to walk up and naked heavy attack someone who knows what they're doing? Nope.

Are people gonna be crafty enough with the tools at their disposal to find openings and punish really defensive players? I think so but we'll see.

Defense is good but let's not get hyperbolic and start pretending we're all Floyd Mayweather just yet.

You make a good point. But not all the characters have those kind of tools.

I main Kensei. I faced a player (another Kensei) with really good reactions. Neither of us were able to land a hit on each other until both decided to go more offensive. The Kensei doesnt' have any tools to break a defense wall. The peacekeeper, once her opponent know reacts to her lights attack, can't neither. The Bersker, the Nobushi, the Raider... almost half of the cast doesn't have any tool to do it.

Of course we aren't all Bruce Lee. But we will eventually. The game needs to plan in advance.

E-A-X
02-13-2017, 02:25 AM
The latest 1on1s ive played ive encountered 4 players in a row that simply did nothing else than counter guardbreak, parry and guard till theyve got an opener.
In actually like 5 of these rounds the game time was close to run out cause none of us wanted to attack, i lost several rounds trying to get even trough, the feints didnt help.

What i feel like is that defense should punish the same amount of stamina as offense does, but if some1 has no more stamina he should not be able to parry, block or guardbreak anymore and also should be a guaranteed drop to the ground if guardbroken and pushed.
Or make it like that guard, parry etc. is more punished in stamina, but dodging attacks is more consistent by fixing the massive autoaim/teleportation :confused:

Or i dont know, maybe weaken defense? parry etc. feels waaaay too powerful as an opener, like you parry some attack and you straight up get a full free combo mostly out of it, that is like ~40-60% of damage or even a instakill if you should fall of the map.

The game for me did spread more a feeling of that it is balanced for dominion, cheesy heroes like the raider to grab people and throw them away while they arent expecting it and so on.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 02:28 AM
Not every mechanic needs to be effective in high-level play.

Why on earth should the most powerful and only unreactable mechanic in the game be on a button-press? A mechanic that can lead to instant death near a ledge? It's just the wrong approach in my opinion.

The devs got it right on that one: the best mechanic in the game currently is the one that is hardest to pull off. It's just that its too good and too easy to pull off.

I disagree. A competitive game should be balanced only for high level play. In a competitive game your goal is to win. The best way to do that is to get better. Doing that in this game makes about 85% of the tools worthless.

I don't think GBs should be the most powerful tool. They need to be made more usable, but less rewarding. And at the same time attacking needs to be made good enough that even with an unreactable GB, most of the time you'll choose to attack. Like a fighting game. Because For Honor is structured like a fighting game, but it doesn't follow the rules of one.

Fellas, I think this game might just be broken. Maybe wait for For Honor 2.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 02:32 AM
I disagree. A competitive game should be balanced only for high level play. In a competitive game your goal is to win. The best way to do that is to get better. Doing that in this game makes about 85% of the tools worthless.

I don't think GBs should be the most powerful tool. They need to be made more usable, but less rewarding. And at the same time attacking needs to be made good enough that even with an unreactable GB, most of the time you'll choose to attack. Like a fighting game. Because For Honor is structured like a fighting game, but it doesn't follow the rules of one.

Fellas, I think this game might just be broken. Maybe wait for For Honor 2.

Agreed, a competitive game SHOULD only be balanced for high-level play. A meaningless mechanic doesn't affect balance. GB can be what the P90 is in CounterStrike: noobs love to use it because its easy, but its useless in pro games. Fighting games have a small playerbase in comparison to MOBAs and Shooters because fighting games are full of stupid **** that makes you rage because you couldnt prevent it. This is no fighting game and thats a good thing.

Sanscion
02-13-2017, 02:33 AM
Most of you seem to lack a true understanding of what the initial argument is saying. Lets break it down:

- You can never force guarantee damage through offense alone.
- Damage can be guaranteed off of defense maneuver, i.e. parrying, deflect.
- There are no true mix-ups, everything can be reacted to.

Because it costs nothing to be defensive, there is no risk. Feints are not true mix-ups, an opponent never has to guess against them, only react. This makes feints too weak to actually break through a defense. Parries however, cannot be reacted against, and come with free damage. This creates a situation where there is no actual goal to taking the offensive; you have to hope your opponent makes a mistake. Simply put, the risk/reward for attacking is greatly in the defensive players favor.

To change this, the following should be implemented:

-Parries should not lead to guaranteed damage, the stamina drain and ending a combo is reward enough.
-Offense should have an actual goal and reward.
-Greater chip damage on heavies, stamina drain on blocks, being unable to parry while out of stamina, would greatly improve offensive options, and prevent pure defense being risk free.

Perfect reactions are already happening from players who have only practiced a few days. Imagine what the competitive dueling scene will look like in a month if nothing changes.

TCTF_SWAT
02-13-2017, 02:34 AM
Wait...who said this game was aimed for a competitive view?

Kroma-
02-13-2017, 02:36 AM
GB counter dodge, and that + followup parry seems enough to me.

Larger feint window seems to be a good solution at first, but it will make heavy bait almost impossible since you will have a lot of more time to cancel it if you get baited.

A decent solution could be making feint frames last longer while keeping the same window ( which means when you cancel it the animation will still last right before the red tickling sign for the opponent, which should make feint animation almost twice longer than it is right now ), could bait more people into parry but would make feint be more punishable with a light attack, half the frames ( atleast the frames added ) of the feint should prevent guardbreak ( llike when you attack ) so guardbreak on reaction should not be too easy.

Removing GB after parry would make parry against light attack useless since blocking it, is enough to get initiative back, and so too risky for the reward ( which will only be a better stamina drain ). I don t know if this is a good thing or not, since it will make light less punishable, but parrying a light attack is much more skilled than parrying an heavy attack, so the reward should match the difficulty.

So another idea would be:
Parry on light attack => free guardbreak
Parry on heavy => stagger that can only secure a light attack, like when you block a light attack for example.
Increase heavy dmg on block to make parry more rewarding.

Sanscion
02-13-2017, 02:37 AM
Wait...who said this game was aimed for a competitive view?

By it's very nature of dueling pvp it is competitive.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 02:38 AM
Wait...who said this game was aimed for a competitive view?

You are playing against another person and trying to beat them. That's called a competition.

Flatlander57
02-13-2017, 02:47 AM
Wait...who said this game was aimed for a competitive view?

How about we make the game fun?

And being able to be nearly invincible in a game that is Player vs Player is not fun.
And yes, if you hit every "QuickTime" Event in the game, you are invincible.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 02:49 AM
How about we make the game fun?

And being able to be nearly invincible in a game that is Player vs Player is not fun.
And yes, if you hit every "QuickTime" Event in the game, you are invincible.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322

To be fair, there are ways to reliably open someone up and attack. This video doesn't show that at all. This is kind of spreading misinformation. The real problem is that there are like 2 or 3 ways to reliably attack, and they're pretty much just rock, paper, scissors.

Kroma-
02-13-2017, 02:53 AM
Larger feint window seems to be a good solution at first, but it will make heavy bait almost impossible since you will have a lot of more time to cancel it if you get baited.

A decent solution could be making feint frames last longer while keeping the same window ( which means when you cancel it the animation will still last right before the red tickling sign for the opponent, which should make feint animation almost twice longer than it is right now ), could bait more people into parry but would make feint be more punishable with a light attack, half the frames ( atleast the frames added ) of the feint should prevent guardbreak ( llike when you attack ) so guardbreak on reaction should not be too easy.

Removing GB after parry would make parry against light attack useless since blocking it, is enough to get initiative back, and so too risky for the reward ( which will only be a better stamina drain ). I don t know if this is a good thing or not, since it will make light less punishable, but parrying a light attack is much more skilled than parrying an heavy attack, so the reward should match the difficulty.

So another idea would be:
Parry on light attack => free guardbreak
Parry on heavy => stagger that can only secure a light attack, like when you block a light attack for example.
Increase heavy dmg on block to make parry more rewarding.

Jinresh
02-13-2017, 02:55 AM
How about we make the game fun?

And being able to be nearly invincible in a game that is Player vs Player is not fun.
And yes, if you hit every "QuickTime" Event in the game, you are invincible.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121546322


I think the "Quick Time" point is a partially valid one. This is not something that is typical in fighting games. I wonder what impacts on reactive defense it would have if For Honor removed the guard/parry/swing/gb indicators and players had to react to visually interpreting the incoming swings...

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 03:00 AM
I think the "Quick Time" point is a partially valid one. This is not something that is typical in fighting games. I wonder what impacts on reactive defense it would have if For Honor removed the guard/parry/swing/gb indicators and players had to react to visually interpreting the incoming swings...

You can turn it off in the options. I tried it. It's actually a lot harder to simply block, and I'm not sure if it's possible to react GBs anymore. Some balance adjustment would be needed, but I think turning off the fight UI would help insanely. At least in ranked.

ShiroHyo
02-13-2017, 03:03 AM
I turned them off the moment i started the game, because i didnt want to stare at a triangle and it was distracting me from the animations. I could possibly be at an disadvantage because of latency and how the framework works the shield icons might display/update the proper reaction earlier than just reading the movement animations. But if everybody played without them it wouldnt make any difference at all. I do not think its harder. Just feels way better but its only psychological.

i can confirm it is possible to counter GB*s.

TCTF_SWAT
02-13-2017, 03:04 AM
You are playing against another person and trying to beat them. That's called a competition.

Tha'ts not what I was getting at. Competitive as in e-sports material and all that crap.

Robbeeeen
02-13-2017, 03:04 AM
I think the "Quick Time" point is a partially valid one. This is not something that is typical in fighting games. I wonder what impacts on reactive defense it would have if For Honor removed the guard/parry/swing/gb indicators and players had to react to visually interpreting the incoming swings...

it would prolong the inevitable. I barely even notice the UI when fighting a peacekeeper, I notice all her moves by the animations before i register the UI. Thats because i spent hours fighting lvl 3 PK when learning to defend. In time you will have every animation memorized and the ui will be useless.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 03:07 AM
I turned them off the moment i started the game, because i didnt want to stare at a triangle and it was distracting me from the animations. I could possibly be at an disadvantage because of latency and how the framework works the shield icons might display/update the proper reaction earlier than just reading the movement animations. But if everybody played without them it wouldnt make any difference at all. I do not think its harder. Just feels way better but its only psychological.

i can confirm it is possible to counter GB*s.

It's definitely harder, you just got used to it. As most of us would it seems. Sucks that that won't fix things. It still should probably be done, just to raise the skill ceiling however little it might.

TCTF_SWAT
02-13-2017, 03:09 AM
It's definitely harder, you just got used to it. As most of us would it seems. Sucks that that won't fix things.

How could it fix things? I think it's best to give it time before things are thrown out of proportion. Like it is now.

E-A-X
02-13-2017, 03:10 AM
what i see the major problem is that you cant really turn off the UI, because this game is not based on reactions and mindreading alone, the netcode comes in here, the only interests the netcode has, have you managed the time window or have you not? it doesnt care about any animations.
And imagine like when this game keeps going in its current network state how much of impossible it would be to fight laggers that start teleporting left and right, when they sprint backwards they actually dont sprint anymore, they warp!

Like idk about others, but i dont feel like i have to read my enemy, i know what hes doing most of the times, when he camps the damn bridge and doesnt attack ofc hes going to parry or guardbreak, maybe shoulderbash - but then what? one pixel starts to move, the sound comes in i predodge and the game says "i dont give a sh*t u didnt hit the timewindow - massive autoaim gotcha".

Im really not into fighting games, but even i see that this game isnt based on, what other fighting games do.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 03:12 AM
How could it fix things? I think it's best to give it time before things are thrown out of proportion. Like it is now.

My hope was that without the UI helping you, it would be harder to defend yourself and that would make GBs and basic attacks viable. Without a rock solid defense, that encourages you to attack since you can't rely on your defense to do everything for you.

Perhaps remove the UI and speed up all attacks in general. Anything has to be better than what exists now.

MrTaoGaming
02-13-2017, 03:14 AM
Most of you seem to lack a true understanding of what the initial argument is saying. Lets break it down:

- You can never force guarantee damage through offense alone.
- Damage can be guaranteed off of defense maneuver, i.e. parrying, deflect.
- There are no true mix-ups, everything can be reacted to.

Because it costs nothing to be defensive, there is no risk. Feints are not true mix-ups, an opponent never has to guess against them, only react. This makes feints too weak to actually break through a defense. Parries however, cannot be reacted against, and come with free damage. This creates a situation where there is no actual goal to taking the offensive; you have to hope your opponent makes a mistake. Simply put, the risk/reward for attacking is greatly in the defensive players favor.

To change this, the following should be implemented:

-Parries should not lead to guaranteed damage, the stamina drain and ending a combo is reward enough.
-Offense should have an actual goal and reward.
-Greater chip damage on heavies, stamina drain on blocks, being unable to parry while out of stamina, would greatly improve offensive options, and prevent pure defense being risk free.

Perfect reactions are already happening from players who have only practiced a few days. Imagine what the competitive dueling scene will look like in a month if nothing changes.


I agree with a lot of your points but I don't agree with some of the solutions you suggested.

-I think parries shouldn't be touched and should always lead to guaranteed damage as it acts like a double edged sword for defense and offense. Without parries leading to guaranteed damage, there won't be much of a reason to go for heavy feints into parrying failed parries as its too much risk for too little gain. ie: "why should I go for this mixup just for a lowsy drain on enemy's stamina. They aren't using any anyways because they're turtling."

-The most important thing is simply to buff offensive options such that a turtling opponent's health is eventually drained faster than his opponents due to him not attempting to take any risks for offense while his opponent does take risks. This can be done by 2 methods:

1. Buff the speed of some light attacks to a certain quasi-unreactable threshold but balance them so that they can only be done from one direction and/or make them unsafe on block. Warden's and PK's quick zone attacks are good examples as they are so fast that they're quasi-reactable unless the opponent is parking his block on the only side that it attacks from. Warden's zone attack is a good example as its unsafe on block, extremely fast, comes out only at one direction and drains a ton of stamina (leading to some stamina management meta game) simply for some medium 25ish damage. It is a move that reminds me a lot of Tekken's fast low attacks that chip away at an opponent but is risky due to being parried.

2. Add more unblockable moves or make more moves unblockable to help certain heroes in their offensive options so that they can create 'true mixups' where turtles actually has to guess correctly or take damage. The key point here is that turtles will have to resort to outputting some offensive pressure and take on risks doing so in order to prevent the opponent from stacking on 'true-mixups' for free and eventually losing health due to not guessing correctly. This is where the saying 'offense is also a certain form of defense' applies in fighting games.

Edit: also I forgot to mention that I don't think it would be wise to add these tools to all the heroes. Most of the top tier heroes right now don't need these additions. But the ones that do suffer in the area of offensive options, these solutions are the way to go.

TCTF_SWAT
02-13-2017, 03:16 AM
Can't say for certain. At least for me. I need some "numbers". Because what I'm just reading on the forums alone tells me the community (aka all of us) only seem to know the basics thus far. I'm not convinced we dug into every nook and cranny yet. People have recognized some things. For example, people are saying the PK is OP while others say the opposite. Same for the conq or the warden.

I'm going to be labbing a while once it launches.Hopefully my sparring partner will have the time to work with me. I'm just not convinced yet.

hazeion1
02-13-2017, 03:19 AM
Lets take a look at other fighting games and defense in particular. This is one of the only games that uses an indicator that tells you HOW TO BLOCK. given enough practice, you can block or parry everything o avoid everything with EASE. slight problem with this game is that there isn't enough guess in this game.

THE HARD PART is how do you balance this and still keep it accessible to beginners?

block stings? Okizeme? string canceling? attacks that knock you OUT of block stance for certain lengths of time?

There is too much of an advantage and NOT enough skill needed to play defensively.

I think the fix is in the stamina. Feints need to cost way less stamina, And the Guard Break mechanic needs to change. Make the guard break harder to counter, but make it more punishable when its whiffed.

E-A-X
02-13-2017, 03:32 AM
What if they go lets say in example, heavys are all out unblockable and always have to be dodged and they get the red indicator, while light attacks get a green indicator?
Top down heavys get the most linear tracking towards front / verticality so can only be dodged sideways, side heavy gets the widest area of damage on the left/right towards the middle in a horizontal line without any kind of forward aimbotting/tracking, means you gota dodge backwards or to the opposite side of the attack -always?

Shoulderbash is a straight forward attack with a very small radius that can hit, means if you dodge sidewards there should be a little space left so you dont get hit, instead of a quicktime "dodge now please" event, same for shieldbash etc - like what ive experienced is the lack of freedom in this game, you are completly limited to these timewindows and you gota do the correct stuff what the game wants you to do, you dont really have the options at the moment to perform anything different.

Lets say this game gives you real freedom to read your oponent and let you act before the quicktime window comes in, the skillceiling would straight up raise alot, but still beginners would not get ruined entirely and still get an entry.
Something like that maybe?

Like as Warden dodging is complete bullsh*t against anything that doesnt flash in orange color (except some heavy attacks, but there it is complete inconsistent and mostly doesnt work!!)and dodging backwards against a raider i.e. from close range gets you nowhere, gota be a parry, or at least guard cause of the massive tracking - like thats the lack of freedom im talking bout.

TouchFluffyTail
02-13-2017, 03:38 AM
My hope was that without the UI helping you, it would be harder to defend yourself and that would make GBs and basic attacks viable. Without a rock solid defense, that encourages you to attack since you can't rely on your defense to do everything for you.

Perhaps remove the UI and speed up all attacks in general. Anything has to be better than what exists now.

Removing the UI it would be just a band-aid fix, everyone will get used later and if not enought everyime a hit will connect a sound effect its played making parry easier. So its more a quality life improve for casual players (remember hight level player its always small)

ShiroHyo
02-13-2017, 03:38 AM
I totally agree the revenge bar design right now is not thought out and has to be reworked for every gamemode, but for almost everything else time is needed to figure things out.
The Feint cost is too high maybe, admittedly and a tweak wouldnt affect too much outside of duels. But put in unavoidable attacks or uncounterable stuff and you get really frustrating Domination/elimination modes (which are the most popular right now)
Drastic changes of mechanics right now isnt the right approach. For now the most obvious flaws like traits/class designs/game modes have to be tweaked, as this isnt purely a 1v1 fighting game. They try to cater to many social groups, neither only to casual nor core gamers, solo players or teamplayers.

While i totally enjoy the 1v1 it has the lowest potential for esports/competition, because its purely based on reaction. Put 2v1,3v1 , traits, abilities, stats etc in the mix it becomes a lot more interesting to watch experience. Its very hard to balance/design a game for all modes, so they will spend most ressources on the most popular. Redesigning anything right now without statistics and numbers could break any mode. The design "flaw" of Defense always wins" is neglected in all other scenarios. This game needs time, a lot of playtesting and tweaks of the current designs.


Meanwhile ill keep gimping myself without qte triangle and overcome it eventually, having fun in 1v1 :P
Atleast the game gives us enough tools to challenge ourselves (atleast for the next year)

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 03:50 AM
Removing the UI it would be just a band-aid fix, everyone will get used later and if not enought everyime a hit will connect a sound effect its played making parry easier. So its more a quality life improve for casual players (remember hight level player its always small)

Good point. If it's not really going to matter for high level play, keep it there for low levels.

dneemit
02-13-2017, 04:20 AM
Hi people,

I would like to propose you an "outside the box" approach.
Instead of changing or adjusting current mechanics I would add a new one (that should not be too difficult to code) - current mechanics are fine as they are (interesting and NB friendly) however as people will learn the game and obtain a decent amount of muscle memory then current mechanics could indeed become a problem. Thus my ideas that I will present below.

Quite a fair amount of what you guys proposed could be a potential solution as well - I just decided to add my 2 cents and let's hope devs will pick any of the ideas (as long as this gets addressed - all cool).

1. We have revenge bar that gets filled up due to dmg taken, blocks or whatnots. Thus, I have been thinking that there could be an offensive revenge bar that would get filled up (slower than def) when the attacks are blocked - such bar could even get reset as soon as any dmg has landed on the oponent. Offensive Revenge could work in many different forms - faster attacks, huge stamina drains, unblockable light attacks, blinds (can't see where the attack comes from) - you name it.

2. Second idea would add Stress (name designed purely for the sake of the conversation -it could be named and designed accordingly they way anyone likes) - simply put the more attacks you block in a row the more "pressure" leading to (when the bar is filled up) inability to block attacks for few seconds.

Both point 1 and 2 could be easily adjusted to make them more workable - I'm sure I have missed few bits.

As I said tho, just my two cents. As long as this issue is addressed then it's calm.

Wardensc2
02-13-2017, 04:57 AM
Lets take a look at other fighting games and defense in particular. This is one of the only games that uses an indicator that tells you HOW TO BLOCK. given enough practice, you can block or parry everything o avoid everything with EASE. slight problem with this game is that there isn't enough guess in this game.

THE HARD PART is how do you balance this and still keep it accessible to beginners?

block stings? Okizeme? string canceling? attacks that knock you OUT of block stance for certain lengths of time?

There is too much of an advantage and NOT enough skill needed to play defensively.

I think the fix is in the stamina. Feints need to cost way less stamina, And the Guard Break mechanic needs to change. Make the guard break harder to counter, but make it more punishable when its whiffed.

The only thing I agree with you is making feints cost less stamina for more mixed up. Parry is ok, it is still hard to parry light attack and after parry, you get unguardable guard break but only 2 character can land a heavy after GB Warden and Orochi. The other character is only light attack and more mix up which you can avoid by GB, hit light attack immediately after you get hit or side dash (sometime you just to play dumb and win: hit a light attack right after you eat your light attack, if you are fast character, not work? try back dash or side dash, getting GB because dash: it's only lead to another mix up or light attack. And also your opponent can't mix up like it forever because their stamina will run out more than you because you're getting hit not attack like them.

And about feint cost less stamina, of course your opponent can cancel their parry but it will only getting them defend again for another mix up. I dont think many people can have a reaction of parry light and heavy, feint, GB at the sametime. People mind is very easy to familiar with something, when your change the pattern they will fall for it.

If they can do it, they can only do it for short times. It require a large amont of concentration, not anyone can afford it, they will normally roll out or dash back.

Only a pro gamer can extend it and we both know that few of us is pro gamers.

After playing 10 years of console game Soul Calibur; i think this For Honor game has the same pattern as it.

And we who play alot of fighting game don't things like you who first play fighting games 1 vs 1. The best thing to defend everything is spacing not blocking, make opponent attack whift and get free attack.

And we don't think much like you, most of our attack move is base on muscular memory we practise and do it mindless. We only thing about grand strategy of the whole game, like getting close or keep distance or especially do block those kind of confusing string of other's attack. Those attack often create by practising with the dummy not real opponet. We just do without think it. We dont have time to think. Think make your move too late. And sometime we just play stupid, keep attacking to interupt people chain attack make them think second times. In order to archieve winning with the grand strategy, we're ok of getting hit, you should too.

Another one more thing I want to adjust is the pushing move after GB, I think people who successfully landed a GB need a commitment they have to choose rather to put people or hit a light/heavy attack. Right now I think too easy for people to change their pushing a direction with a landed GB to push people fall off the cliff. If you want to push you have to commit it from the first GB.

Another tip when geting GB, stun or our of stamina: don't panic, don't run, stand and endure. Parry and block your way out it ok to eat light attack. Especially running when your stamina depleted. I fight many assasins who like to do it. Skilled opponet will punish you hard when you running, it can be a running slash or a GB and kick you fall to the ground for free overhead heavy. All assasin when out of stamina need play defender, stand and focus on your defend because you know it the time for the your opponent attack. Your assasin has the best tool in fighting game, controlling space with long and fast dash.

You dont know how frustrated when a conqueror fighting with an assasin who like hit & run. Sometime they hit me for half of my health and run , dash the whole game, my "elephant" conqueror has to run to catch them is so hopeless. I also meet an opponent after hit me some slash, run the whole game too win, so lame tactics. You guy play fast characters and not familiar with defend, you don't know how many sh@$t we the defender have to eat to finally send it back to you.

Butler96
02-13-2017, 07:02 AM
Hi people,

I would like to propose you an "outside the box" approach.
Instead of changing or adjusting current mechanics I would add a new one (that should not be too difficult to code) - current mechanics are fine as they are (interesting and NB friendly) however as people will learn the game and obtain a decent amount of muscle memory then current mechanics could indeed become a problem. Thus my ideas that I will present below.

Quite a fair amount of what you guys proposed could be a potential solution as well - I just decided to add my 2 cents and let's hope devs will pick any of the ideas (as long as this gets addressed - all cool).

1. We have revenge bar that gets filled up due to dmg taken, blocks or whatnots. Thus, I have been thinking that there could be an offensive revenge bar that would get filled up (slower than def) when the attacks are blocked - such bar could even get reset as soon as any dmg has landed on the oponent. Offensive Revenge could work in many different forms - faster attacks, huge stamina drains, unblockable light attacks, blinds (can't see where the attack comes from) - you name it.

2. Second idea would add Stress (name designed purely for the sake of the conversation -it could be named and designed accordingly they way anyone likes) - simply put the more attacks you block in a row the more "pressure" leading to (when the bar is filled up) inability to block attacks for few seconds.

Both point 1 and 2 could be easily adjusted to make them more workable - I'm sure I have missed few bits.

As I said tho, just my two cents. As long as this issue is addressed then it's calm.

The problem isn't blocking, the problem is parrying. You should always be able to block normal attacks, but with parry in its current state you can get free damage simply by parrying and not doing anything else,

AegisOfLove
02-13-2017, 07:15 AM
I think Ubisoft should try to avoid big changes like switching parry input to light attack, that would confuse players that didn't read the patch notes. Ubisoft should remove GB from parry as soon as they can, parries shouldn't be rewarded with damage.

A couple of ideas:

1. Add feints to GB. Making GBs faster would just make the game closer to a rock/paper/scissors kind of game. I'm pretty sure nobody wants this.

2. Increase feint cancel window. Being able to cancel later in the move would make it harder to see through the feints.

TTVPappusGaming
02-13-2017, 07:38 AM
i just want to point out that feint into guardbreak has a tremendous success chance. I tested it witha buddy on a couple of characters and it was untechable and personally I can see it in games too. I can't feint out of my heavies fast enough most of the time since well feints are not instant. They cancel later and I am guardbroken before I am at my feinting point.

Maybe you can pull it of perfectly on some chars I dunno but as a raider (and my feints are rather late) I can't do much about it.

However technically you could opt out of parrying heavies since it doesn't cost much to block those.

Blankhere
02-13-2017, 07:47 AM
The feint your talking about is the most basic feint you can do. There are much more complex feints which are extremely hard to react to. This post really just pretends like heavy cancel is only feint in the game.

Flatlander57
02-13-2017, 08:01 AM
The feint your talking about is the most basic feint you can do. There are much more complex feints which are extremely hard to react to. This post really just pretends like heavy cancel is only feint in the game.

Please explain in more detail.

In my mind the following are your options for offense:
Light Attack
Heavy Attack
Guard Break
Zone Attack

You can also Feint a Heavy Attack, and then go into any of the above attacks afterwards.
Examples:
Heavy Attack>Feint>Light Attack
Heavy Attack>Feint>Heavy Attack
Heavy Attack>Feint>Guard Break
Heavy Attack>Feint>Zone Attack

You can also double-feint:
Heavy Attack>Feint>Heavy Attack>Feint>Any Attack

From my experience, these are the only options in the game other than the very specific abilities of certain classes. (Which, usually are just as easy to block/parry/counter)

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 08:22 AM
I think he's referring to Warden shoulder bash cancels, Kensei unblockable cancels. Stuff like that. Which are legitimate ways to open someone up, but having just those to rely on is too little.

Aarpian2
02-13-2017, 10:24 AM
As the game currently plays you have a multitude of problems making for dull gameplay:

Parry power makes all attack-based aggression incredibly risky
Heavies are pointless to throw for most classes because you will very likely get parried and almost certainly get blocked even vs mediocre players. The risk:ratio is awful.
Related to the above - Combos are never used outside of guaranteed hits because you will get parried


The solutions as I see it are pretty simple:
- NERF PARRY - this absolutely NEEDS to be done. Keep the stamina drain but remove the guaranteed damage.
- Add significant chip damage to heavies - gives you a reason to actually throw heavies and combined with the parry nerf makes feints more believable
- Remove stagger from blocked light attacks - right now blocking a light attack means bye-bye combo, so none of them ever get used. Pretty boring to watch and sad that we don't get to use these cool chains in our move lists

At this point you're probably thinking "well, why would I use parry now if I don't get any damage?" - the answer being you stop the enemy combo and get a frame advantage to launch your own offense, on top of crippling their stamina forcing them to stay defensive to recover it. There's now an extra layer of tactics for both parties; do I wait out the assault, and parry later to get him exhausted but risk getting hit by heavies or feinted? Do I parry him as soon as possible but gain less of an advantage? Is parrying at the start predictable, will I get parry baited by a feint?


Crucially, this would all put the OFFENSIVE advantage with the attacker. As it currently stands, the defender has the offensive advantage due to the guaranteed heavies from parries. The reward for a good defense should be not taking damage and the chance to start your own offense - not an offensive advantage as well.

nestharus
02-13-2017, 10:33 AM
As others have noted, if you hate this invulnerable defense and feels like you can't attack, play Warden. Their charge turns the entire match into a guessing game. It's still dumb, but it's better than what it otherwise would be. Maybe I'm not good enough and it's not really a guessing game, but from what I've seen, the only thing the two players can do is guess at what the other will do. The Warden needs to decide how their opponent will react before their opponent reacts and vice versa. If you don't decide before hand, it will already be too late =).


That being said, I think that all "guessing game" nonsense should be removed from the game. I hate that stuff -.-. However, dealing with uncounterable defense is even worse, hence why I now play as a Warden. Better to be able to attack and atleast have a chance than just get into a staring contest with the person you are fighting.


Broken fast zone attacks work well too : P.

Shinimas
02-13-2017, 11:04 AM
As others have noted, if you hate this invulnerable defense and feels like you can't attack, play Warden. Their charge turns the entire match into a guessing game. It's still dumb, but it's better than what it otherwise would be. Maybe I'm not good enough and it's not really a guessing game, but from what I've seen, the only thing the two players can do is guess at what the other will do. The Warden needs to decide how their opponent will react before their opponent reacts and vice versa. If you don't decide before hand, it will already be too late =).


That being said, I think that all "guessing game" nonsense should be removed from the game. I hate that stuff -.-. However, dealing with uncounterable defense is even worse, hence why I now play as a Warden. Better to be able to attack and atleast have a chance than just get into a staring contest with the person you are fighting.


Broken fast zone attacks work well too : P.

Or play PK. A character with follow ups so fast you literally get rewarded for missing your first light attack. Also that zone attack... somebody forgot to put an extra zero into the animation speed line.

TouchFluffyTail
02-13-2017, 11:37 AM
People are missing assassin and warlord have parry/deflections moves, nerf base parry and everyone will just play assassin and warlord :rolleyes:

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 11:40 AM
People are missing assassin and warlord have parry/deflections moves, nerf base parry and everyone will just play assassin and warlord :rolleyes:

Is the timing on deflect as generous as parry that you can do it as easily? I never played any assassins in the betas.

Icepick_Trotsky
02-13-2017, 11:40 AM
In a real fight you are compelled to be offensive? There are plenty of real fights where being offensive did nothing but get that person destroyed by a counter attack.
How is that a counter-argument to what I said? Counter atack is still an atack. Defense on it's own doesn't get you anywhere


In reality it's not about who is offensive first it's about who makes the first mistake.
Yes - mistake in a defense. Mistake you will eventually make, because it's not within human capabilities to reliably defend every single atack for long. And as I said, defense doesn't get you anywhere. In every martial art a proper defense leads to counter atack - which then can be countered by opponent. So it goes like this back and forth.
So you can see how different it is in this game? here a defense mechanic and counter-atack are ONE thing.

TouchFluffyTail
02-13-2017, 11:44 AM
Is the timing on deflect as generous as parry that you can do it as easily? I never played any assassins in the betas.

its the "parry" for assassin just change heavy for a dodge and have the same timing just its tied to a moveset unlike parry (unless you are warlord then parry its a moveset)

so we need careful how parry/deflection should be nerfed.

Pariah695
02-13-2017, 11:52 AM
its the "parry" for assassin just change heavy for a dodge and have the same timing just its tied to a moveset unlike parry (unless you are warlord then parry its a moveset)

so we need careful how parry/deflection should be nerfed.

Well, considering it's on dodge that seems like less of a problem because you actually have to commit to it. Wouldn't that mean you can feint someone into dodging and GB them? Never fought an assassin that was any good so I never got to see.

Edit: Wait never mind I'm stupid. If they do a dodge attack they can't be GBd. Meaning the thing to do then is feint and parry. Then it just turns into R,P,S again. Yeah, that's no good.

Knight_Raime
02-13-2017, 01:04 PM
it's good to see this catching on in 2 seperate threads. Hopefully that means the devs will do something. Here is my response from the other thread:

"I'm deff not amazing at this game. and i'm not really versed in top tier fighting games in general. so bare with me. But I initially came across this by viewing parries as being too strong because it guarentes you a GB which just gives free damage. Anyway these would be my suggestions. someone who's super good at this game or fighting games can tell me how good/bad these suggestions might be:

~Make it so you can stop a throw by pressing the GB button if they attempt to throw you.

~Let GB's be stopped by fast attacks.

~let back dashes be immune to GB.

~or alternatively don't let the GB's be stopped by fast attacks. But they would be slower.

~fix what happens when both hit eachother with GB. it should bounce people off eachother instead of randomly giving one side the GB.

Those changes should allow GB to be counterable. and should deter from being able to do what people do now which is just react tech.

~feints happen faster.

~feints can be done on more things besides heavies for all heros.

~prevent the use of being able to feint immediately on a whiffed parry attempt. (not sure how to make this happen in game mechanically.)

~Feints cost less stamina.

This makes feinting less predictable, adds some commitment to parrying, and makes it a more available option. At best right now you can feint maybe 2-3 times. too little.

~Parrying someone has less stagger frames in general.

~the amount of stagger frames is dependent on the type of attack you parried. (ex a parrying a light would result in fewer stagger frames and parrying heavies/certain special attacks would grant more stagger frames.) Obviously this would have to be tweaked really precisely. But I think only a few attacks should be able to be parried and give the current amount of stagger frames. maybe parrying zone attacks or attacks that followed a feint.

~Parrying takes up slightly more stamina for the person parrying and the person being parried.

This should tone back how powerful/easy parrying can be. while still making it worth while. and also add a decision process instead of if can parry=parry like it is now.

here are some general things that I think might help the game combat.

~increase the speed of nearly all attacks in the game.

~tighten the window for GB's, parries, and deflects by some.

~repeated attacks of the same direction* should result in doing less damage or more stamina usage.

~Give everyone some kind of quick 1 hit basic attack that can't be seen via the indicator. can only be seen through the stance of the character. Move should be different for each warrior. it shouldn't be parryable or deflectable. But it would be slow enough to be able to reasonably react block to IF you recognize the stance of the character.

I think that is all of my ideas. Thanks in advance for anyone who gives feedback.

*= (not sure exactly how i'd do this. but if you are familiar with super smash bros you might understand what i'm getting at. They have a system where landing the same hit will weaken the damage and knock effect from the attack. I'm not sure how for honor would add this in. But I think it would be beneficial for the game to do so.)"

Wrander
02-13-2017, 01:57 PM
How is that a counter-argument to what I said? Counter atack is still an atack. Defense on it's own doesn't get you anywhere

Yes - mistake in a defense. Mistake you will eventually make, because it's not within human capabilities to reliably defend every single atack for long. And as I said, defense doesn't get you anywhere. In every martial art a proper defense leads to counter atack - which then can be countered by opponent. So it goes like this back and forth.
So you can see how different it is in this game? here a defense mechanic and counter-atack are ONE thing.

Wrong, the attacks you can do in this game are clearly shown and slow enough. It IS in human capabilities to block/counter everything. And the counters are not counterable so your second point dosn't make any sense. You cannot do anything when you got parried or if an assassin dodged your attack and counter attacks.

Kav0rk4
02-13-2017, 01:59 PM
Just make blocking take chip damage.


Easy fix.

Icepick_Trotsky
02-13-2017, 03:17 PM
Wrong, the attacks you can do in this game are clearly shown and slow enough. It IS in human capabilities to block/counter everything. And the counters are not counterable so your second point dosn't make any sense. You cannot do anything when you got parried or if an assassin dodged your attack and counter attacks.
dude, I'm not talking about the game in this comment...

Wrander
02-13-2017, 04:33 PM
dude, I'm not talking about the game in this comment...
whoops, sorry. Overread the last sentance and without it it sounds like you are saying that for honor fights in this current state are as dynamic as real fights where you acutally can do mistakes no matter how long you practiced.

YOGZULA
02-13-2017, 04:56 PM
People are missing assassin and warlord have parry/deflections moves, nerf base parry and everyone will just play assassin and warlord :rolleyes:

it's a lot easier to deal with deflect than parry, though. a deflect attempt means that the assassin needs to dodge within range of the attack. that means you can feint and guard break them during their dodge. that's straight forward counter play. you can't counter play against parrying in any sense. You can try to feint to bait out a heavy attack, but that heavy attack can also easily be feinted so that the defender gets to remain on defense.

Dreamsweeps
02-13-2017, 05:22 PM
Perhaps remove the UI and speed up all attacks in general. Anything has to be better than what exists now.


I agree with this guy, speed the game up with 53,2% and remove UI :)

Xanthus730
02-13-2017, 05:45 PM
I disagree.

Fighting games often times are more mind-game than a mechanical game. "Skill" usually refers to "mechanical skill", being able to execute the tools available to your disposal quickly and precisely.

For Honor is refreshingly different from fighting-games because it focuses more on the mechanical skill component than the mind-games. I find it incredibly frustrating in games whenever I couldn't have prevented something via sheer mechanical skill - this is the reason why CounterStrike and DarkSouls are so addictive. There is very little "bullsh**" and you always have the feeling that you couldve done something better or that you can do it if you practice more. The quintessential core of a skill-based game.

For Honor can stay that way. It should not morph into some pseudo-fighting game. It just needs a few tweaks to encourage offense over defense and to make certain high-level mechanics a bit different (for suggestions: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1576116-Gamebreaking-mechanics-at-high-level-play-Defensive-Invulnerability?p=12296675&viewfull=1#post12296675)
I would argue, why have that feeling only for the defender? Shouldn't the attacker also have the opportunity to say "If I had executed that attack better, I would have hit him?" Having ONLY the defender in that paradigm still puts all the power in the defender's hands.

I think the simplest, best suggestion so far has been to just add a block cooldown to feints, so you can't feint a failed parry and still block. That still leaves parries very very strong though. There's too much "Defend into Unbeatable attack" right now. There aren't any real ways to 'pressure' an opponent that's good at defense. It's always scarier to be on offense than defense in this game.

I'm not going to say the sky is falling or "ded gaem" or anything, but I think this is something that could be improved.

ShiroHyo
02-13-2017, 06:33 PM
After having slept over it i must admit i was wrong and you guys are right. It IS possible to become invulnerable at some point. I'm gimping myself by not using the ui but yes hitting a qte 95% will eventually become possible. Also hacks are already in development (sigh) so this will probably be seen at all skill levels. It must be possible to either outsmart a cheater or very good player or an mechanic added that ensures you cant stay on defense forever.
Best solutions ive seen yet are
-more chip Damage on Block/Parry (its possible to balance that seperately for fast/slow characters)
-Dark Souls like Poise Mechanic that breaks at some point (my favorite)

As for for the guaranteed gb after parry, yea its too big of a reward after the reward of not taking damage and draining the attackers stamina. I think it should be possible to dodge/roll backwards as attacker, when you get parried. This is the general direction the character stumbles to anyways.
I dont want Heavy attacks to be feintable on the very last milliseconds, this is too unrealistic and looks hilarious. An attack that went over the swing vertex should always be a commitment.

NiceBoatUS
02-13-2017, 06:54 PM
Why add chip damage or poise or stamina or whatever, if this entire problem started with a core game mechanic not functioning properly?

A parry attempt into a feint doesn't put you at a frame disadvantage if you cancel it.
Feints are broken. Heavy attack cancel window is placed too early. Quite honestly, it should be reported as a bug, because feints are kinda like taunts right now: they have no impact on gameplay if you're aware of the underlying mechanics and you don't get scared by them.


How about we ask for a simple fix to something that's obviously broken (and has been changed specifically for this open beta test from what other people have said) before we start inventing new game mechanics that probably won't ever be introduced?

Heavies shouldn't be cancelled into feints so early in the animation. It shouldn't be possible to prevent feinting a parry into a block. The cancel should happen at least a couple of frames later.

Bam. Problem solved. You can still turtle, but you won't get any risk-free damage that way, so the risk-reward actually starts benefitting the attacker.

If people start forcing ties in 1v1s/2v2s, simply introduce winning based on % health by the end of the round.

I mean guys, Ubisoft won't reinvent the game because of a minor animation issue, so how about keeping it real and sticking to simple solutions, eh?

If the game still moves too slow, they can make teching a guard break harder (like - you have to anticipate it to do it).

I mean, look at it this way: what's more likely, Ubi adjusting active frames on a few moves/countermoves, or Ubi introducing a completely new mechanic that requires some serious rebalancing?

Grimnar9
02-13-2017, 08:09 PM
Blocking costing stamina might work, but I think a simpler solution is to make parries techable. You get parried, you are given a window to tech is just like anything else so that you are not vulnerable to guaranteed damage afterward. The real problem with defensive play is that it is rewarded with unblockable damage. I would be fine with a game where defense play is rewarded with not taking damage. If parrying didn't exist, it wouldn't be a goof strategy to play super defensively. Sure, you might still be able to run down the block, but you'll never WIN doing it. You leave yourself the chance to make mistakes and take damage, whereas your opponent never will unless you attempt to attack.

Parrying is simply far too powerful of a mechanic and needs to stop rewarding free damage.

Only part of this thread I agree with, I'm a new player and not particularly good, but instantly I thought parry was OP because you can't counter-parry. Make it techable and this problem disappears. besides, thats what a sword fight is. an ebb and flow of parry and counter parry until someone makes a mistake or gets tired and you can go in for the damage.

On the rest of this subject, don't make a game that caters to the "pro" player by nerfing or buffing mechanics that only influences the gameplay of a tiny fraction of the community.
too many games do this and it detrimentally affects play for the rest of us. Just my opinion. cheers.

NiceBoatUS
02-13-2017, 08:54 PM
On the rest of this subject, don't make a game that caters to the "pro" player by nerfing or buffing mechanics that only influences the gameplay of a tiny fraction of the community.
too many games do this and it detrimentally affects play for the rest of us. Just my opinion. cheers.

Eh, fighting game forum warfare - business as usual.
All fighting games have to cater to "pro" players because the weak players don't utilize the mechanics in question properly. It's literally impossible to balance the game around novice players, because novice players by definition play just a part of the game. Every newbie is good at something else, but there are no newbies that are good at all the core mechanics (a player that understands and utilizes the core mechanics properly by definition isn't a newbie). In the end, whenever a newbie says "don't cater to advanced players, cater to us, scrubs", it's basically "please balance the game around me and f*** everyone else". That's quite selfish and unreasonable. Obviously, you could also ask for more accessibility ("easy to learn, hard to master"), but For Honor is very accessible by design and no amount of high-level fine-tuning is going to change that.

Anyway, after the beta it's kind of obvious that FH is fun for a casual, but it isn't balanced for competitive play. And let's be honest here - none of the reasonable solutions to the impenetrable defence problem would have a serious impact on low-level play. Making it impossible to change directions on a parry via heavy cancelling wouldn't have any impact on newbies, because they don't feint. Guardbreak changes would also have no impact on their games because a newbie isn't going to tech a GB on reaction unless he's expecting it.

Reapy54
02-13-2017, 10:16 PM
I come from the mount & blade warband area of melee games rather than fighting. For those that don't know it, warband had the direction blocking where you move your mouse to pick 4 directions, left/right/up/down and then have a wind up animation followed by a release. You could feint out of the attack at any point until about half way through the release. This meant you could wobble your blade about 1000x faster than in for honor pre swing, and pull out of a swing just as it was about to hit someone.

If you watch the good warband players now they basically look like their characters are having minor seizures and yet people are still able to pick the direction and block. For honor's direction picking is really simple comparatively. Even taking away the UI that is just complexity of learning the attack animations but because of lock on you don't have to worry about people twisting around behind you and doing other types of junk.

I would really just put it in the bank that people can easily parry and block and counter GB's very soon. What I mean is I feel like the average player you encounter in FH will have mastered these within a month of release. GB timing feels difficult enough you might find 100% counter GB play a bit more rare.

One thing to account for though with any mechanic changes is the new player experience. I think any move to tweak GBs to make them harder to deal with will dissuade people from learning the game. They are frustrating as a new player, and remember that too frustrating and people quit, and your community slowly dies without an drip feed of new players.

I think as has been stated before that the major issue here (i'm not good enough to fully understand so taking what others say as truth) is the parry being the only way to open up a person for damage. The feint patterns you can come up with are not nearly complex enough to win on confusion alone, in fact I would disregard direction entirely as a factor when attacking someone. ,Again see any good warband dueling video and you will see what kind of weird *** animations humans are capable of blocking.

So what, GB mixup with attacks, seems like that is something people are capable of reading. So imagine now facing that guy what do you do? How do you force him out of the shell? And again I think it's alright if they sit and do nothing as long as you don't reward them for sitting and doing nothing. If we look at that video in the thread of the guy defending, the attacker is just left with no stamina and has left himself open countless times. A game has to reward people that push the action forward, and I say this as a person that really likes playing defensively and countering what people do.

But also again the balance is complex, you have each class vs the other, the overarching question of should all classes 1v1 be viable, and how does it affect other game modes.

I think there is an answer somewhere close by, some of the suggestions here are really on point, and I hope ubi will address a few of the rules.

For now I'll be enjoying the game playing with the multitude of people that suck at the game like myself while I just try to figure out what each hero can do and teach my old brain the moves for each class and try to figure out the playstyle of each one. That should keep me busy for a while, but I know that eventually myself, and probably the majority of FH players, will encounter this defensive hang up soon. You have to force activity as a game developer, keep it moving, and a server full of 'no no, why don't you hit me first' gameplay is going to quickly become unfun.

Sawa963
02-14-2017, 03:58 AM
Parries shouldn't grant you free damage in any form. The reward for parrying should be avoiding damage and gaining frame advantage so you can start your own offense. A stamina penalty, if any, shouldn't be too excessive -- the game is already slow enough.

And increase block damage, dammit.

Eji1700
02-14-2017, 05:27 AM
Parrying has been nerfed people, you now have to hit the heavy button in around the middle of the flashing animation, but even there you still have 50% to mess it up: the flashing is now a false indicator.

Before you scream l2p, I have played both betas, and got good at parrying; I know they changed it, made it pretty unreliable.

Before you scream p2p, I have tried it with bots, so no connectivity issues.

Now matches between just decent players will be slow affair where no one want to commit to nothing, be it parrying or attacking; I don't know about dodging, if they did not change it, now assassins have the advantage.

If that's all they changed the game is still broken. You just never parry now, get a single win, and then block/tech only.

The completely non negotiable fixes need to be that parries are not risky (because you can option select the feint right after and defend) and GB's do not exist unless after a parry at higher levels (Because the GB animation is long enough any human can react to it).

The first one is fixed by not allowing you to feint back to neutral, or forcing the feint window to start later (Which is better also for making feints work more).

The second either by making the animation faster, or by making it easier to set up guaranteed GB's. Feinting working COULD help this a little because now you can just grab them if they dodge, but i highly doubt that's enough.

I'd also like to see chains get faster attacks for the 2nd and 3rd hit (to reward continuing a chain rather than punish you for it), but possibly have many 3rd hits be unsafe on block (to keep it as a risk/reward thing)

This is all the bare minimum.

I'll also add that the stagger/reward for forcing your opponent to block a heavy should be much higher. If a conq charges a full heavy and you block it, he really should get a free GB/light mixup or something, because right now raw heavies that are blocked are way too much risk for next to 0 reward.

Pariah695
02-14-2017, 05:57 AM
If that's all they changed the game is still broken.

This.

Making parries riskier and punishable is great and all. But there are many other problems. Everything needs to be made viable at high level. As it stands light and heavy attacks are not viable, guard breaks are not viable, even unreactable zone attacks are not really viable. The very core gameplay the game is built upon is not viable. This needs to be fixed. You need to be able to attack your opponent with varying degrees of risk, not guarenteed to get parried, for appropriate levels of reward, not get everything blocked if not parried. Guard breaks need to actually break through someones defense, not nothing.

If these sorts of things don't get fixed than the game remains reduced to nothing more than R/P/S at high level. Mind games are great offensive tools, but they should not be the only tools.

Eji1700
02-14-2017, 06:08 AM
This.

Making parries riskier and punishable is great and all. But there are many other problems. Everything needs to be made viable at high level. As it stands light and heavy attacks are not viable, guard breaks are not viable, even unreactable zone attacks are not really viable. The very core gameplay the game is built upon is not viable. This needs to be fixed. You need to be able to attack your opponent with varying degrees of risk, not guarenteed to get parried, for appropriate levels of reward, not get everything blocked if not parried. Guard breaks need to actually break through someones defense, not nothing.

If these sorts of things don't get fixed than the game remains reduced to nothing more than R/P/S at high level. Mind games are great offensive tools, but they should not be the only tools.

The issue is it's not even RPS. It's tic tac toe. The game is solved, don't attack.

If you're in a 1v1, don't attack, certain tie.

if you're in a 2v2, both of you don't attack, certain tie, or you don't attack and gamble on your teammate winning first, and then win via 2v1.

If you're in dominion, and you get on the point first, don't attack. They should never be able to get you off unless they 2v1 you, which means your allies who are not attacking are getting more points on the others points.

This isn't RPS. All fighting games are just very fast weighted RPS (image if you have to win 10 games, but sometimes winning with rock gave you 3 wins, or playing paper cost you half a win). This is, currently, at best a game with a miserably small meta consisting of warden and maybe one or two others (who rely on basically 3 moves), or a completely solved game like tic tac toe where two players playing seriously should never ever lose.

This won't wreck every single casual round, but they better not be hoping for twitch views for longer than a month or a serious playerbase.

Pariah695
02-14-2017, 06:21 AM
You're right, but things like Warden's shoulder bash mix-ups do turn it into R/P/S. I actually thought the same about tic tac toe a while ago. But there are, however few, actual ways to force someone into a mix-up. But that's all there is. I played freaking Mario Power Tennis earlier today and that game has more depth. Also, fighting games are more than just R/P/S.

Ubisoft, fix your broken game.

Wrander
02-14-2017, 10:57 AM
You're right, but things like Warden's shoulder bash mix-ups do turn it into R/P/S. I actually thought the same about tic tac toe a while ago. But there are, however few, actual ways to force someone into a mix-up. But that's all there is. I played freaking Mario Power Tennis earlier today and that game has more depth. Also, fighting games are more than just R/P/S.

Ubisoft, fix your broken game.

Isn't Warden Bash dodgable and atleast with some classes punishable? With Nobushi I tried to dodge Shoulder bashes and could get free counterattacks. And I know that my mate with warden and conqueror dodged often my kicks. Though he couldn't punish it. If thats the case Bashes are also just another kind of attack like GB you have to react to fast enough. And I think it's possible to do it on reaction.

Pariah695
02-14-2017, 01:23 PM
Isn't Warden Bash dodgable and atleast with some classes punishable? With Nobushi I tried to dodge Shoulder bashes and could get free counterattacks. And I know that my mate with warden and conqueror dodged often my kicks. Though he couldn't punish it. If thats the case Bashes are also just another kind of attack like GB you have to react to fast enough. And I think it's possible to do it on reaction.

You can cancel the shoulder bash into a guard break. This will catch dodges. So it becomes a 50/50 of whether I will cancel the shoulder bash or not, and whether you dodge or not. If the character has a dodge attack, then you can cancel the shoulder and parry it. That turns it into R/P/S. Will I shoulder bash, GB, or parry, and will you dodge, not dodge, dodge attack?

Seraphid
02-14-2017, 02:31 PM
Merge all this solutions:

Parry a heavy attack protects you from the damage but does not eat a chunk of stamina or throw away your oponent, just resets battle. Instead, parry a heavy attack takes stamina from you depending on the character you are. Light characters will lose more stamina because they have less stability and heavy characters will suffer less. An unblockable attack does chip damage on a parry, since it should be dodged (about half square is reasonable upon they stamina consumption).

Make parry no longer to be used in a chain. You shouldn't be able to stop an enemy for making combos on you when you're getting hit. Block is a nice measure but really?, you stop the sword after cutting you?. So to interrupt a chain you have to let it end or parry a heavy attack.

Then, we have this result. The game ends rewarding to finish the chain, the stamina becomes a race instead of only some management added to the game and the telegraphed heavies don't get that punished for that. Also, parry is not completely gone, since in this balance, if you can parry the first light attack of the chain, you will put your opponent in a significant disadvantage of stamina, that helps the point to manage it.

Also, maybe you noticed but if you're quick enough during the heavy attack wind up animation, you can gb your oponent. Obviusly is risky, but with this implemented, is more rewarding since you get free hits and don't lose stamina, while oponent does. Obviusly, you can't do this when you get chained.
Short version:

Parry heavy cost stamina and only negates damage
Unblockable, if parried, makes chip damage, full otherwise (None if evaded)
Light attacks of a chain are no longer able to be parried, only blocked.
This way, an ofensive approach become an stamina race to finish the oponent, but being to much aggressive and predictable is still punished.
Gb rewards predictions about heavy attacks

I think this would make some balance, let me guys know if you have some suggestions

Wrander
02-14-2017, 03:12 PM
You can cancel the shoulder bash into a guard break. This will catch dodges. So it becomes a 50/50 of whether I will cancel the shoulder bash or not, and whether you dodge or not. If the character has a dodge attack, then you can cancel the shoulder and parry it. That turns it into R/P/S. Will I shoulder bash, GB, or parry, and will you dodge, not dodge, dodge attack?
Oh sweet, after a dodge you can't counter GB right? But this dosn't works agaisnt all classes or? Assassins will attack out of their dodge right away no matter what happend and I think this will negate any GB which might come. With Nobushi I dodge Shoulder Bash by Hiddenstance and counter attack right away.

GregoryMcFlint
02-14-2017, 03:47 PM
Blade Symphony is still $5! :o

DivineImpalerX
02-14-2017, 03:56 PM
it shouldn`t be possible to Parry unblockables (the attacks are super slow + stop by taking damage). But overal parry is too strong imo (and too easy to perform)

Xanthus730
02-14-2017, 04:59 PM
The way FH differs from all other fighting games I've played is the concept of 'turns'. In a normal fighting game, you have to either wait for your 'turn' to attack, or rely on some turn-breaking mechanic to end the other person's turn early.

These, obviously, aren't real 'turns' like an old-school RPG, but basically, while an opponent is on offense, I have defensive options, but not offensive options. I can't block directly into some damaging counter unless my opponent messes up their pressure (block string, frametrap or what-have-you). When they've messed up, or finished their chain of attacks, now I have an opportunity to start my own, or punish their mistake.

This is directly opposite to FH's system. In FH, the BEST time to start your offense, get damage, and punish your opponent is during their turn. While you're defending.
Correctly executed defense is the best offense in FH, when correctly executed OFFENSE should be the best offense.

This can easily be changed through fairly MINOR tweaks to both defense and offensive options. Make reaction windows smaller on some offensive options for all classes, raise damage on the riskier options. Lower damage on counters and defensive options, and shorten reaction windows. Make some counters riskier or do less damage (or both!).

These can all be relatively small tweaks, but should shift the feel & flow of the game significantly.

Robbeeeen
02-14-2017, 05:15 PM
The way FH differs from all other fighting games I've played is the concept of 'turns'. In a normal fighting game, you have to either wait for your 'turn' to attack, or rely on some turn-breaking mechanic to end the other person's turn early.

These, obviously, aren't real 'turns' like an old-school RPG, but basically, while an opponent is on offense, I have defensive options, but not offensive options. I can't block directly into some damaging counter unless my opponent messes up their pressure (block string, frametrap or what-have-you). When they've messed up, or finished their chain of attacks, now I have an opportunity to start my own, or punish their mistake.

This is directly opposite to FH's system. In FH, the BEST time to start your offense, get damage, and punish your opponent is during their turn. While you're defending.
Correctly executed defense is the best offense in FH, when correctly executed OFFENSE should be the best offense.

This can easily be changed through fairly MINOR tweaks to both defense and offensive options. Make reaction windows smaller on some offensive options for all classes, raise damage on the riskier options. Lower damage on counters and defensive options, and shorten reaction windows. Make some counters riskier or do less damage (or both!).

These can all be relatively small tweaks, but should shift the feel & flow of the game significantly.


Exactly, very well put. There is 0 need to reinvent the game or change any mechanics drastically - adjust some reaction windows, rebalance the risk & reward ratio which currently favors defense over offense too much and we're good to go.

It might be a good opportunity to look at some changes to stamina-usages as well, since its kind of irrelevant if you run out of stamina right now - you just block every attack, counter and dodge till you're full - and its also skewed towards punished offense with stamina-penalties (especially feints) and rewarding defense.

Xanthus730
02-14-2017, 05:49 PM
Exactly, very well put. There is 0 need to reinvent the game or change any mechanics drastically - adjust some reaction windows, rebalance the risk & reward ratio which currently favors defense over offense too much and we're good to go.

It might be a good opportunity to look at some changes to stamina-usages as well, since its kind of irrelevant if you run out of stamina right now - you just block every attack, counter and dodge till you're full - and its also skewed towards punished offense with stamina-penalties (especially feints) and rewarding defense.

I agree the on the stamina issue, but I think that should wait. Making stamina loss more punishing also pushes the balance back in favor of the defender. Why not just wait until the opponent is nearly exhausted, parry them to take their last bit of stamina and THEN go on the offense? I'd say solve the other issues first before trying to address stamina.

Funeragon
02-14-2017, 11:24 PM
Maybe the realistic mode in multiplayer could help a lot ! :DD

Xanthus730
02-14-2017, 11:36 PM
Maybe the realistic mode in multiplayer could help a lot ! :DD

I feel like it would just delay people reaching the skill ceiling. Eventually people would learn to identify all the animations without the HUD and we'd still reach the same place.

Eji1700
02-15-2017, 12:25 AM
I feel like it would just delay people reaching the skill ceiling. Eventually people would learn to identify all the animations without the HUD and we'd still reach the same place.

This is probably likely, but it would be a sorta dirty fix at least. Like tekken it'd still be possible to be perfect or near perfect at breaking all the throws, but most people wouldn't bother to get good enough so for them the game would feel fine (competitive tekken works with throws always being breakable for different reasons).

On that note who still think GB's are fast enough/hard enough to break, throws in tekken are 12 frames, with a 3 frame window to break (so 15) and have 3 different visual cues all requiring a different break that can't be mashed and are expected by high level players to be 75%+, some pushing 90/95%. For reference https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzQizw-8yU0

There is no way FH GB's are anywhere near that difficult, and it's why I'm not surprised that in the short time I played I was already above 50% on reaction GB's.

Stankyfoot
02-15-2017, 12:31 AM
The way FH differs from all other fighting games I've played is the concept of 'turns'. In a normal fighting game, you have to either wait for your 'turn' to attack, or rely on some turn-breaking mechanic to end the other person's turn early.

These, obviously, aren't real 'turns' like an old-school RPG, but basically, while an opponent is on offense, I have defensive options, but not offensive options. I can't block directly into some damaging counter unless my opponent messes up their pressure (block string, frametrap or what-have-you). When they've messed up, or finished their chain of attacks, now I have an opportunity to start my own, or punish their mistake.

This is directly opposite to FH's system. In FH, the BEST time to start your offense, get damage, and punish your opponent is during their turn. While you're defending.
Correctly executed defense is the best offense in FH, when correctly executed OFFENSE should be the best offense.

This can easily be changed through fairly MINOR tweaks to both defense and offensive options. Make reaction windows smaller on some offensive options for all classes, raise damage on the riskier options. Lower damage on counters and defensive options, and shorten reaction windows. Make some counters riskier or do less damage (or both!).

These can all be relatively small tweaks, but should shift the feel & flow of the game significantly.

Why would there be turns in a fight? I know that may be the norm in fighting games but For Honor is based on historical fighting arts and, in real life, you sure as hell aren't restricted to defence when your opponent is attacking.

Look at this, for example.

http://giphy.com/gifs/mma-cross-counter-mkq9X7VqfH6jS

Eji1700
02-15-2017, 12:37 AM
Why would there be turns in a fight? I know that may be the norm in fighting games but For Honor is based on historical fighting arts and, in real life, you sure as hell aren't restricted to defence when your opponent is attacking.

Look at this, for example.

http://giphy.com/gifs/mma-cross-counter-mkq9X7VqfH6jS

That sort of thing absolutely exists in fighters. It's called counterhtting and frame trapping and is the whole point of the turn thing.

Saeryf
02-15-2017, 12:50 AM
Exactly, very well put. There is 0 need to reinvent the game or change any mechanics drastically - adjust some reaction windows, rebalance the risk & reward ratio which currently favors defense over offense too much and we're good to go.

It might be a good opportunity to look at some changes to stamina-usages as well, since its kind of irrelevant if you run out of stamina right now - you just block every attack, counter and dodge till you're full - and its also skewed towards punished offense with stamina-penalties (especially feints) and rewarding defense.

I found this to be REALLY odd when I first played in closed beta. I'm out of stamina, can't sprint (whoop-de-doo), and attack slower but all my defensive capabilities are untouched... what? Something will definitely have to be done to remedy this situation because as it stands the game needs some help. Having exhausted punish defenders more would be a good start, but as someone else mentioned you could just wait out the enemy and then punish them for having attacked at all. Back to square one there, so I'm not sure how to go about fixing it honestly.

Others have mentioned some possible solutions, but as I don't follow (or play, really) fighting games I can't comment on how well that would work if implemented into FH in some way.

Robbeeeen
02-15-2017, 11:04 AM
So after playing the full release, nothing changed.

I've probably done over a hundred duels already and nothing changed from Open Beta to full release.

The only playable class continues to be Warden, due to its 3 moves that are "somewhat safe" to perform without getting parried: shoulder-bash, zone attack and top light. In over a hundred duels I've never used a move other than those 3 when I was tryharding against a good opponent.

My losses come from classes I rarely play against and am thus not used to the attack-animations. I ate a bunch of heavies from Shoguchi for example and lost some games, even though the attack is pisseasy to parry when you know the right timing.

Apart from that, the only class even remotely able to compete with the Warden is Orochi due to his very fast zone-attack and very fast top light double-attack.


What I find troubling is that against others Wardens I'm starting to be able to block both fast attacks rather more and more consistently and parrying them sometimes. This means that even those will be parryable 90+% soon, bringing the game to an utter stop where attacking will be truly impossible.


Feints continue to be completely useless.


And to the people saying that you need to wait for the metagame to develop, can't say these things so soon: this is not a metagame issue. This is a mechanics issue. People are not beating the metagame, they're beating the GAME.

Aarpian2
02-15-2017, 12:33 PM
The way FH differs from all other fighting games I've played is the concept of 'turns'. In a normal fighting game, you have to either wait for your 'turn' to attack, or rely on some turn-breaking mechanic to end the other person's turn early.

These, obviously, aren't real 'turns' like an old-school RPG, but basically, while an opponent is on offense, I have defensive options, but not offensive options. I can't block directly into some damaging counter unless my opponent messes up their pressure (block string, frametrap or what-have-you). When they've messed up, or finished their chain of attacks, now I have an opportunity to start my own, or punish their mistake.

This is directly opposite to FH's system. In FH, the BEST time to start your offense, get damage, and punish your opponent is during their turn. While you're defending.
Correctly executed defense is the best offense in FH, when correctly executed OFFENSE should be the best offense.

This can easily be changed through fairly MINOR tweaks to both defense and offensive options. Make reaction windows smaller on some offensive options for all classes, raise damage on the riskier options. Lower damage on counters and defensive options, and shorten reaction windows. Make some counters riskier or do less damage (or both!).

These can all be relatively small tweaks, but should shift the feel & flow of the game significantly.

Fantastic post that should be read by all.

Icepick_Trotsky
02-15-2017, 12:48 PM
This is directly opposite to FH's system. In FH, the BEST time to start your offense, get damage, and punish your opponent is during their turn. While you're defending.
Correctly executed defense is the best offense in FH, when correctly executed OFFENSE should be the best offense.

This!

Why would there be turns in a fight? I know that may be the norm in fighting games but For Honor is based on historical fighting arts and, in real life, you sure as hell aren't restricted to defence when your opponent is attacking.


Yea it may be silly but gameplay-wise it might be better. This game is still not even remotely near real life combat so it no more realistic than those "turns".

If you can achieve to block 100 or 99% of enemy's atack that clearly shows that game is not well thought through. Look at almost any other fighting game or even a real life combat - if you stand in front of you enemy's face withing his range and not doing anything YOU are risking, because its impossible to block all incoming atacks. Majority - yes, but not nearly enough to make it a good idea to just stand and wait for the opponent's move.

Im my opinion defense should be nerfed to the ground, beaten to death with nerfhammer. Slow down changing guard position, make window for feint longer, make parry window super tight, make GB counter tighter (however I think GBs should be less rewarding in that case) AND SPEED UP ALL ATACKS.

Edit: Another thought crossed my mind - I think for the current mechanics of the game there is simply too few mixups. I mean generally, all classes. What we got? Light and heavies (while top atacks usually differ from side atacks), guard breaks and 2-4 special atacks(including zone atacks here). That is very few!

Wrander
02-15-2017, 02:56 PM
Why would there be turns in a fight? I know that may be the norm in fighting games but For Honor is based on historical fighting arts and, in real life, you sure as hell aren't restricted to defence when your opponent is attacking.

Look at this, for example.

http://giphy.com/gifs/mma-cross-counter-mkq9X7VqfH6jS
He is talking about momentum. In fighting games you can also fight back. In Street Fighter there are counters and parrys. You can Jab while your opponent has the momentum with a fast move to break his momentum or do an invincible move while he is on the offense. But they are risky, rely on prediction, tight reaction and/or unsafe if missed or blocked. But you gotta try to break momentum because you can't defend forever and you get hit sooner or later.

But in For Honor you don't feel that pressure, you could defend for ever and countering by dodging or parryng isn't nearly as risky like it should be.

Xanthus730
02-15-2017, 04:34 PM
Why would there be turns in a fight? I know that may be the norm in fighting games but For Honor is based on historical fighting arts and, in real life, you sure as hell aren't restricted to defence when your opponent is attacking.

Look at this, for example.

http://giphy.com/gifs/mma-cross-counter-mkq9X7VqfH6jS
As someone with a lot of RL martial arts experience, and, while not high level, a decent little piece of fighting game experience, I can say these sorts of things do have an analogue. However, games aren't 100% true-to-life, not even For Honor.

So, I cases like this, I would consider that gif's example, in FH, something like a deflect or parry-riposte.
In SFV this would be something like a counterhit or crush-counter. However, parries do still exist for some characters (not all).

The way this is balanced out in the game, and somewhat in real life too, is momentum and risk. Defending against an attack and/or trying to go for a counter-strategy is risky. Reaction times aren't perfect and some attacks come out too fast for anything but a read or guess. Not to mention, an attack with momentum behind it will usually be more punishing. In FGs this is usually modelled by having more or better combos that start from stronger attacks, while light attacks might only offer a few weaker combos that you can link into.

In FH, this isn't the case, you can parry or deflect the opponent's "safest" attack and go into some of the most damaging options in the game. In fact, in most cases defensive options are the ONLY way to access these super-damaging combos effectively.

This, I hope you see, is the opposite of good risk v reward balancing.

Staying on defense should be risky. The attacker should have ways to trick you or slip some pokes in. And if they manage to get through your defense, especially with a big risky gambit, they should reap the rewards. Big risky attacks should be punishable, as well, but an opponent exerting some safe, measured pressure on a defender shouldn't be opening themselves up to enormous risk.

Right now, defense is fairly low risk, and extremely high reward. Almost all defense is fairly reactable, and the attack thrown by the attacker doesn't matter for how big of a damage opening your defensive option creates. Parrying a huge heavy overhead gives the defender the same damage options as parrying a light.


Yea it may be silly but gameplay-wise it might be better. This game is still not even remotely near real life combat so it no more realistic than those "turns".

If you can achieve to block 100 or 99% of enemy's atack that clearly shows that game is not well thought through. Look at almost any other fighting game or even a real life combat - if you stand in front of you enemy's face withing his range and not doing anything YOU are risking, because its impossible to block all incoming atacks. Majority - yes, but not nearly enough to make it a good idea to just stand and wait for the opponent's move.

Im my opinion defense should be nerfed to the ground, beaten to death with nerfhammer. Slow down changing guard position, make window for feint longer, make parry window super tight, make GB counter tighter (however I think GBs should be less rewarding in that case) AND SPEED UP ALL ATACKS.

Edit: Another thought crossed my mind - I think for the current mechanics of the game there is simply too few mixups. I mean generally, all classes. What we got? Light and heavies (while top atacks usually differ from side atacks), guard breaks and 2-4 special atacks(including zone atacks here). That is very few!
This, I think would be going SUPER overboard. You don't want defense to be worthless, and attacking should still be risky.
But defense should be risky, too. Balanced risk v reward is the name of the game.


I found this to be REALLY odd when I first played in closed beta. I'm out of stamina, can't sprint (whoop-de-doo), and attack slower but all my defensive capabilities are untouched... what? Something will definitely have to be done to remedy this situation because as it stands the game needs some help. Having exhausted punish defenders more would be a good start, but as someone else mentioned you could just wait out the enemy and then punish them for having attacked at all. Back to square one there, so I'm not sure how to go about fixing it honestly.

Others have mentioned some possible solutions, but as I don't follow (or play, really) fighting games I can't comment on how well that would work if implemented into FH in some way.
Stamina is a completely separate issue. As you said, stamina, as of now, only punishes offense, but it is one of the few ways the game enforces an actual ebb-and-flow of attack 'turns'. I feel like, while maybe still an issue, stamina is one of the smallest issues in FH currently.

I'd say, my "issue list" in priority order would be:

Defensive damage options are too strong
Offensive mix-up options are too weak
Revive speed & interruptibility in 4v4 gear-enabled modes
Class balance
Stamina system overhaul

GregoryMcFlint
02-15-2017, 05:35 PM
I like never attacking first. It's my fetish. :cool:

Xanthus730
02-15-2017, 05:42 PM
Added another thread with a summary of the discussion here and a poll related to the issue(s).
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1579355-Summary-of-Defense-v-Offense-Imbalance-and-Possible-(Easy)-Fixes

drinkingjacket
02-15-2017, 06:47 PM
I agree with this part of what you said:

"Parry shouldn't be able to be cancelled into block to react to being baited by a feint."



Parry needs to have some other cost/risk associated with it besides game knowledge/experience. A feint theoretically should be the solution, and it probably was designed as such, as it baits the opponent into a parry, but right now there is no penalty for parrying as one can feint cancel their parry into a block. Since parry is triggered on heavy attack, this presents a problem. There is no way the game can know if the user is trying to attack or parry.


Probably in a best case scenario parry would be another button or command, but I understand that presents its own challenges and sort of flattens the skill disparity of players across the board. But unless its another input, there is zero chance to make parry "punishable" as anything implemented with the intent of doing so would only make Heavy attack even worse than it already is for many of the characters.


So...


I don't know if frame rate changes can fix this.

Maybe an option to disable "parry" via some attack...?

Xanthus730
02-15-2017, 06:55 PM
They could:
•Move parry to light
•Give block a cooldown after feint (no feinting into block)

YOGZULA
02-15-2017, 07:53 PM
I agree with many of the solutions you posted in OP. Though even still I most largely blame guarenteed damage gained from defensive play. Some moves just become unusable. Berserker goes to heavy overhead leap a nobushi. She easily parries it, gets a free guard break, gets a free overhead heavy for 1/3rd of berserker's life and starts a chain with it. That's dumb. The free follow ups off of parry need to go away entirely. Same with deflects (though less of a problem since they're harder to do and easier to play around).

Everything should be techable. Nothing should be for free. It's like for honor was designed in a way where the devs thought aggression would be more powerful than defense, so defense needed to be rewarded highly for good play. Revenge, parrying, deflecting etc. They were very wrong to make that call.

drinkingjacket
02-15-2017, 07:58 PM
But then wouldn't you just light attack then?


Like, if I feint and you light attack to parry, wouldn't the game just resolve it as you making a light attack through my feint? Dawning a new era of light attack spam?


This is probably why they bound parry and heavy attack together, as heavy is slower, it gives the game more time to resolve the actions into something that makes sense.


I think we can agree that Ubi should make changes to parry and GB. I love parry and GB, I think they are great ideas, and I certainly don't want to see either mechanic removed or neutered, but there needs to be a way to reward aggression beyond GB. I realize that 1v1 duels are only a small component of For Honor, and that any changes will have ramifications across the board, but watching 2 highly skilled players right now in an 1 v 1 is...well...pretty dumb.

I for one would like another layer of strategy, not just ever more obscure quick time reaction checks. It doesn't necessarily have to be a new attack maneuver but some kind of risk for parrying besides missing the window I think would open the game up.


But getting rid of feinting into block or parrying into block would be a good start probably. Maybe increased stamina costs when blocking heavies will "bait" people into wanting to parry them, only to get feinted...this could be something at least.


Also the PK/Orochi/Beserker should probably take huge stamina drains from blocking heavies. Their entire kits scream dodge and deflect and riposte, but they can stare you down into "parry" ceasefires right now leading to GB spam. Its stupid.

YOGZULA
02-15-2017, 08:03 PM
Regarding the last part about assassin types... so can any class. Berserker especially is among the weakest heroes in the game and doesn't need an indirect nerf like that. There's no reason to propose hero specific changes to parry just yet. It should just be nerfed across the board for everyone.

Good opponents counter guard break constantly so your only real option is to just throw out attacks and hope they hit. Hell, some classes are completely designed around long strings of attacks (like zerker) but when the reward is non-existant and in actuality it's just a massive risk that leads to getting punished in parried, attacking no longer becomes a smart option. So when guard breaking doesn't work and attacking is too dangerous and unrewarding of an option, it's easy to see why what results is a very stale and boring meta

Ulfhedinn_.
02-15-2017, 11:03 PM
As someone who 'mains' a berserker, I can appreciate your point on how powerful simply defending can be. There have been times where the regen of the final bar has worked in conjunction with my Jedi-like dodges, parries and deflects to completely reverse a round, simply because I chose to wait for windows of opportunity than to try and create them myself.

Shinimas
02-16-2017, 03:30 AM
As someone who 'mains' a berserker, I can appreciate your point on how powerful simply defending can be. There have been times where the regen of the final bar has worked in conjunction with my Jedi-like dodges, parries and deflects to completely reverse a round, simply because I chose to wait for windows of opportunity than to try and create them myself.

Yup. Move backwards and wait for whiffs. Except some characters also possess incredible offense that does stand a chance of getting through, which makes them stand a head above others, who are forced to play defensively.

Rump_Buffalo
02-17-2017, 11:46 PM
i think i made these same exact suggestions yesterday. Glad to see someone agrees and understands the problem

Indalamar01
02-18-2017, 01:40 AM
I agree with the general feedback. Defensive play is too strong and there is almost no way to create usable windows to deal damage to someone. Parry is easy to execute and gives guaranteed damage, there is almost no way as an attacker to land guaranteed damage since the defensive moves are so effective and easy to execute. Counter GB is trivial to perform, parrying lets you return damage to the attacker, aside from the insanely fast speed of things like Warden Zone Clear and the likes getting damage through on any competent player who can actually CGB and Parry is near impossible.

darksavior1977
02-18-2017, 04:02 AM
Because attacking is at such a disadvantage to defending, I am finding that the play as people get better at defending is becoming very boring, win or lose. Its a hunt peck jab session, only landing a hit here and a hit there. Combos and many techniques just become irrelevant in favor of the fastest of light attacks, parry into gb into heavy, and that combo is likely about to go after Ubi patches GBC. Its honestly boring to play. I have played other fighting games where it devolved into using jabs and stalling combos so that good players only ever "peck" at each other with jabs. Its just not fun to reach a level of play where its not too inspiring to watch or play. Today is the first day since having bought For Honor that I opted to go do something else instead. Nice concept but the fighting engine either needs work, or I need to come to terms with finding high level play a boring affair.

Cyb3rR4ptor
02-18-2017, 04:10 AM
I have a few question for you guys.

Thoughts on being with no stamina? Is it ok as it is? I find it hardly an opportunity to capitalize for an offensive when the opponent is out of stamina. It's basically a state where you are safe from harm but still have little opportunity to get a true offensive going on since the opponent can Counter GB, Parry, Side step and Block. They should tweak that.

Do all unblockables have the same properties? I've seen Nobushi's kicks get interrupted by light attacks.

Is there are source of info. detailing. Each characters sats more detailed. like base stamina cost of each move and frame data?

Altair_Snake
02-18-2017, 03:57 PM
I think the decrease of teh stamina cost of feints is a particularly good idea.

I'd also like to have GBs straight up whiff against opponents who are on hit stun or parry stun. And I think techs should only be available if you start them before the opponent's GB makes contact.

emmdeekizzlar
02-20-2017, 01:26 AM
So after playing againnst some very good players it does seem a little too easy to do nothing but stand still and block/react to everything with 0 downside, especially against characters who lack a really quick light or zone. Feinting is all well and good but the other player has to be willing to engage with you or else its an easy block for absolutely free. Although it sounds a little dramatic i think a viable way to combat the ease of turtling in this game would be to really ramp up the chip damage on heavies on block (Something like 50-70% of the normal damage). It feels at the moment heavies are no more than a punish from a gb or a way to bait a parry/feint, if they actually did considerable damage on block you'd actually have a bit of a reward for using them compared to the massive risk as it stands. People would eventually get punished for doing nothing but blocking which in turn would mean theyd be forced to dodge or parry, opening up potential mixup options like GB or counter parry. Obviously there are very few people at the minute who can block any and all attacks consistently, but with time i think more and more people will get there leading to a stale and ultra safe meta of poking with super fast light + zone attacks.

Make heavy attacks great again!

VMPL1
02-20-2017, 04:14 AM
I can already see the forum the day after defense got nerfed:

1. OMG, can't defend myself in a gank, I'm uninstalling
2. Every team mode is now a gank fest.
3. Get ganked = Get dead
4. Assassin classes are so OP. Pls nerf
5. Orochi, PK, Berk = unstoppable
6. PK, Berk are broken. Who's with me?
7. Conq, LB, WL are useless. Buff or uninstall
etc.

Zyrusticae
02-20-2017, 04:49 AM
I agree with the OP, but I think it doesn't go far enough. In addition to those suggestions, I would add:

- Dodges should not be so free. For how invulnerable they make you (especially for assassins), they should cost a considerable amount of stamina. In addition, dodges with attacks at the end should lose their invulnerability at the very moment the attack starts up. Being able to attack while invulnerable is not fair to anyone involved. If your only recourse is to block (or, if your reflexes are good enough, parry), something is off.

- I agree with the notion that guard breaks should be fast enough that the only way to interrupt them is to anticipate them. HOWEVER, I would only okay this change if a change were made to ring outs, such as making them possible only during exhaustion. Speaking of exhaustion...

- Exhaustion hardly means anything right now. At the moment, you are still effectively invulnerable while exhausted if your reflexes are good enough. You should NOT be able to dodge, parry, or interrupt guard breaks while exhausted. Being exhausted means you've completely failed to manage your stamina, and should be punished accordingly. In its current state, exhaustion just means you cannot attack at normal speed or feint, which, while certainly a penalty, still allows people to turtle far too effectively. This change would force people to commit to attacks to stop guard break attempts, and since their attacks are slower than usual, this means being able to anticipate when an attempt will be made. It also means you have to eat uninterruptible unblockables. If this means that someone getting exhausted essentially lost the match, all the better! (To compensate, I would increase the recovery speed from exhaustion, since being in that state means you're vulnerable to mostly everything the enemy can throw at you. I'd also reduce the amount of stamina drained while you're being hit and thrown in this state.)

Offense should trump defense. If it doesn't, you end up with what we have now, which is a game where playing passively and defensively at all times is heavily rewarded, and any attempts to pressure an opponent tend to fall flat in the face of such powerful defensive options. We need the game to play more towards constant aggression, with the defending player being on the back foot, or the game just becomes a slog to play and equally boring to watch. Its future depends on changing the status quo.

I have high hopes for this game's future. Judging from what I've seen with Siege and The Division, I trust they can do right by us. The only question for me is how long it will take for them to get it. In the meantime, I'll be playing with the AI when I'm not doing orders. I just don't want to deal with the slow-going meta.

Cyb3rR4ptor
02-20-2017, 04:13 PM
I find that using the argument of "if they fix X problem it will make 4v4s a huge gank fest" quite negligible.
Why?
They already are a gank fest. I've yet to see a player consistently win a 1v2+ situation. And maybe that's just for the time being while players learn how to properly gank. But most ganks i've taken part of the victim gets obliterated even by activating revenge numerous times. So when players learn how to properly gank i doubt that any sort of decent patching will fix the problem. The gank fest will be eternal. So it's either Team fights, gank or being ganked.

Maybe there are those that can pull off a 1v2+ more often.. But the OP states HIGH LEVEL PLAY. If by HIGH LEVEL it means SKILLED. Winning a 1v2+ situation on that caliber of play are gonna be extremely rare.