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Gubermensch
02-27-2017, 09:44 PM
More clips to illustrate the point....

To explain what's going on here to those that don't know... the warden is looking for a specific attack to parry (Left light), covering his right guard to shut down the quick zone, and guard breaking from time to time. As long as he manages to counter gb every time and block attacks other than the one he's looking to parry, all actions are 100% safe. This playstyle does take skill, but it makes the game a joke at high level. The only classes that can counter this strategy are Warlord, Warden, Shugoki and Conq, and it is a viable strat for all classes.

https://clips.twitch.tv/ElatedFrigidGoldfishEleGiggle

https://clips.twitch.tv/FlirtyWonderfulNeanderthalYouWHY

https://clips.twitch.tv/StrongTemperedFrogFUNgineer

Maaci
02-27-2017, 09:45 PM
The way i see it: Rock/paper/scissor is bad gamedesign. I dont want to win my games by luck and thats what it will come to, i would have to take a chance. I dont like it, it gets tiresome fast while its not about skill in the long run.
When i play table-tennis irl, its not about rock-paper-scissor, its about reaction based skill where both players have the same power against one another.

A reaction based gameplay that can be defended 100% and more dynamic attacking is the way to go. Its easy to block one attack, but to block 3-4attacks in a row?
You say defending is to easy and i totally agree, but 75% of the kit is not used. While the combos could get even more dynamic aswell.
Yes some combos, maybe even alot of them would be easy to block, so some classes might be in the need of tweak/redesign and so on.

Defending should not lead to free-damage and that includes dodge-based attacks. Attacking should be encouraged(as well as defending), right now attacking into a class that can dodge your attack is a no-no.


If the fundamentals gets fixed, then its possible to look even further on all classes making them even more unique and making all classes able to attack in their own right.

LunarMammal369
02-28-2017, 01:36 PM
Hi this is as per above.

I was thinking whether it would be feasible to just replace the stamina meter with a power meter which will only be recharged by either attacks or injury. All offensive and defensive actions will deplete the power meter by a certain percentage.

As such, the basic in game actions of offense and defense will still work as normal but will only be recharged by attacks or injury. This will then ensure that everyone will be initiating an attack of some sort to charge up their power meter so they can do parrying, unblockables,guard break,blocking etc.

Wouldn't this put a stop to the current meta of super defense as you will need your power meter to be charged up to a certain extent to do what you want to do. This is the inverse of the current stamina bar where you are at full stamina at the beginning which encourages turtling, spamming of guard breaks and parrying etc.

With the power meter, you would be limited by how much spamming of parrying and guardbreaks you can do as the meter is only charged by attacks or injury.

Any comments are welcome.

Netcode_err_404
03-04-2017, 04:28 AM
Hi this is as per above.

I was thinking whether it would be feasible to just replace the stamina meter with a power meter which will only be recharged by either attacks or injury. All offensive and defensive actions will deplete the power meter by a certain percentage.

As such, the basic in game actions of offense and defense will still work as normal but will only be recharged by attacks or injury. This will then ensure that everyone will be initiating an attack of some sort to charge up their power meter so they can do parrying, unblockables,guard break,blocking etc.

Wouldn't this put a stop to the current meta of super defense as you will need your power meter to be charged up to a certain extent to do what you want to do. This is the inverse of the current stamina bar where you are at full stamina at the beginning which encourages turtling, spamming of guard breaks and parrying etc.

With the power meter, you would be limited by how much spamming of parrying and guardbreaks you can do as the meter is only charged by attacks or injury.

Any comments are welcome.


I think the problem will persist. Heavy attacks ( some classes more than others) are ridicoloulsly slow.

Here we need to adjust the parry mechanic, and the block one. Then we need a rework of 360 degrees total blocks.

Its hard to fix that, because i don't think this thing was meant during the developement.

Drewski408
03-04-2017, 05:24 AM
Delete or remove the hit-stun from Parry.

This move alone, along with the infinite combos that Conquerer, Warden, and Warlord have, make the game Blade Symphony 2.0. Haven't heard of Blade Symphony? There's a reason you haven't! :o

These factors alone make the most viable form of play hyper-passive only. I had my fair share of staring contests in which my opponent never attacked first and always tried to bait a parry in 1v1 to boot!

Also, to mention the obvious here, the p2p makes reacting to this hyper-boring meta even more intolerable.

Long story short, this game is Blade Symphony, so go ahead and buy it from steam to get the same exact experience!

It's only $5!!!!!!!!!!!!

Warden and Warlord don't have infinite combos...

MisterGuyMan
03-04-2017, 05:40 AM
I'll just paste what I typed in another thread:
For Honor is modeling itself after fighting games so I have no idea why this overly defensive meta is surprising to anyone. This problem has been solved already. Turtling tactics have always get beaten by throws. Throws are the Paper that beats the Rock of blocking. Guard Break Cancels shouldn't even be a thing IMO or they should ONLY exist if two players are guard breaking at the same time.

This was so obvious to me ever since I first played the game in the first beta. Blocking beats attacking. Oh and you can parry and deflect for damage too. Then the next beta comes out and add in a Revenge meter advantage to people that play defensive. And the pitiful guardbreak that is supposed to, you know, break through your opponent when he's guarding, can literally be neutralized by pressing a button.

The fix is really that simple. Take out GBC on reaction. If you anticipate a GB and input it at the same time then you both revert to neutral. If you screw up your read and the other guy attacks, you eat it. It's basic Rock, Paper, Scissors here.

Netcode_err_404
03-04-2017, 11:47 AM
Warden and Warlord don't have infinite combos...

They have.

Charge + Rt, charge + RT.

Yes its pretty easy to dodge, but if your opponent keeps to spam it, soon or later, you will make a mistake, and you will get chain hitted by 2 buttons combinations.

I find still ridicolous conquerors can spam their charge, and even if you perfectly dodge, can't punish their miss with a GB or an heavy, cause their recovery time after a charge is instant.

Netcode_err_404
03-04-2017, 11:50 AM
I'll just paste what I typed in another thread:
For Honor is modeling itself after fighting games so I have no idea why this overly defensive meta is surprising to anyone. This problem has been solved already. Turtling tactics have always get beaten by throws. Throws are the Paper that beats the Rock of blocking. Guard Break Cancels shouldn't even be a thing IMO or they should ONLY exist if two players are guard breaking at the same time.

This was so obvious to me ever since I first played the game in the first beta. Blocking beats attacking. Oh and you can parry and deflect for damage too. Then the next beta comes out and add in a Revenge meter advantage to people that play defensive. And the pitiful guardbreak that is supposed to, you know, break through your opponent when he's guarding, can literally be neutralized by pressing a button.

The fix is really that simple. Take out GBC on reaction. If you anticipate a GB and input it at the same time then you both revert to neutral. If you screw up your read and the other guy attacks, you eat it. It's basic Rock, Paper, Scissors here.

I think its not.

Gb is easily counterable by every slightly above avg player.

And is a really valid tactic most of the time only after a parry. You won't GB a decent passive player, especially if he is playing conqerors or warlords.

Did a match vs an extreme passive conqueror, he just charge r2 or charge GB, never attacked first, i won but i needed to play cancer to win. Its just boring.

GregoryMcFlint
03-04-2017, 12:32 PM
Its just boring.

It most certainly is! :o

I've been playing Warlord because the boring infinite combo is one of the few things I can use against the EZ PZ parry ***kboiz. When people catch onto it, I start dashing into them without head butting, so they throw out a dodge to the side. After they dodge, I punish them at the end of their dodge.

GOTTA LOVE THE BORING META! :rolleyes:

Netcode_err_404
03-04-2017, 12:41 PM
It most certainly is! :o

I've been playing Warlord because the boring infinite combo is one of the few things I can use against the EZ PZ parry ***kboiz. When people catch onto it, I start dashing into them without head butting, so they throw out a dodge to the side. After they dodge, I punish them at the end of their dodge.

GOTTA LOVE THE BORING META! :rolleyes:

I understand that, and thats the problem

Nyameria
03-04-2017, 12:54 PM
Let's stop this nonsense. I thought like you before but I was wrong. Look at this video:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/121616748

This guy has won 176 of 177 duels and he is a pretty aggressive player. The only duel he has lost was versus a light attack spammer. Thanks of god Ubisoft ignored our suggestions because we don't have any idea about this game yet.

"The only duel he has lost was versus a light attack spammer."
so lets just spamm light atacks and win, because i can fight super pros like this! XDDDDD

MisterGuyMan
03-04-2017, 11:37 PM
I think its not.

Gb is easily counterable by every slightly above avg player.

And is a really valid tactic most of the time only after a parry. You won't GB a decent passive player, especially if he is playing conqerors or warlords.

Did a match vs an extreme passive conqueror, he just charge r2 or charge GB, never attacked first, i won but i needed to play cancer to win. Its just boring.
GB is only easily counterable because you can guardbreak cancel on reaction. Without that, GB will open up players that turtle up.

Maaci
03-05-2017, 12:00 AM
GB is only easily counterable because you can guardbreak cancel on reaction. Without that, GB will open up players that turtle up.
Whats your point?

MisterGuyMan
03-05-2017, 01:04 AM
Whats your point?
My point, as per my original post, is the Guard Break Cancel on reaction shouldn't be a thing and it's existence in this game made it obvious to me Day 1 high level play would be dominated by turtling.

Netcode_err_404
03-05-2017, 01:32 AM
My point, as per my original post, is the Guard Break Cancel on reaction shouldn't be a thing and it's existence in this game made it obvious to me Day 1 high level play would be dominated by turtling.

Well, without it, people will just spam GB but i presume its still better than passive dummies who go for parry and free damage.

DJ_Masterson
03-05-2017, 04:05 AM
Even simpler suggestion would be to make GuardBreaks un-counterable. You get grabbed, you get f***ed, period. You don't wanna get grabbed, be more aggressive.

... is this a good solution? Probably not. But it is a simple one. lol

EDIT: Ohp, someone beat me to it. lol

Zyrusticae
03-05-2017, 04:16 AM
In addition to making guard breaks uncounterable, I still think throwing someone on a ledge should lead to wallsplats unless they're exhausted.

Keep fights from ending in a single missed button press.

Netcode_err_404
03-05-2017, 03:35 PM
In addition to making guard breaks uncounterable, I still think throwing someone on a ledge should lead to wallsplats unless they're exhausted.

Keep fights from ending in a single missed button press.

Love this idea.

But how about adding a "skill check" ? If you miss it you fall, if you center it you are save.

To be more precise something like that https://www.deadbydaylight.com/manual/img/survivor/dbd-survivor-skill.png

Breikas.
03-05-2017, 06:15 PM
From another thread I posted in:

The defensive meta is actually easily fixed with two changes:
1. Chip damage should be raised substantially
2. A parry attempt should be a commitment and not be feintable.

This way a parry is a read, the same way a dodge or dodge attack is.
Dodging leaves you open for a guardbreak if the offender feinted and read your dodge. In return a dodge-attack beats guardbreak, but the dodge attack can also be parried if read correctly.

With these changes it would be viable to link attacks and feint in said attacks if you expect a parry. the game would be more about whiff punishes and getting attacks in at the right time.

Col1us
03-05-2017, 07:18 PM
From another thread I posted in:

The defensive meta is actually easily fixed with two changes:
1. Chip damage should be raised substantially
2. A parry attempt should be a commitment and not be feintable.

This way a parry is a read, the same way a dodge or dodge attack is.
Dodging leaves you open for a guardbreak if the offender feinted and read your dodge. In return a dodge-attack beats guardbreak, but the dodge attack can also be parried if read correctly.

With these changes it would be viable to link attacks and feint in said attacks if you expect a parry. the game would be more about whiff punishes and getting attacks in at the right time.

Or... as balance - just use stamina on change guard.
Everytime you switch your guard in a other direction, it should be consuming a bit stamina. Also the activation from all-guard-move should be consuming stamina over time. so you cannot turtle all day.
when run out of stamina and want to block - your´re falling on the ground or get twice as damage on block, even with light attacks.
So you need to dodge and concentrade on parry more.

Netcode_err_404
03-06-2017, 02:58 AM
Or... as balance - just use stamina on change guard.
Everytime you switch your guard in a other direction, it should be consuming a bit stamina. Also the activation from all-guard-move should be consuming stamina over time. so you cannot turtle all day.
when run out of stamina and want to block - your´re falling on the ground or get twice as damage on block, even with light attacks.
So you need to dodge and concentrade on parry more.

Lot of greats ideas.

They surely would help to make this game a fightinh game, rather than a dummy simulator.

We should merge all these type of topics. I could do that n the next days if its ok.

SeferFantasy1
03-06-2017, 09:32 AM
Or just remove Parry, parry is the freaking problem. And increase heavy damage so someone who ONLY blocks, will eventually die.

I hate all of you saying "mind games, mind games, mind games..." SCREW THE TURTLE. The devs didn't plan on this ****, we wernt given all these different combos to NOT use. Hell berserker is listed as a "harasser" and the showcase video for him shows him BERSERKERING other people. NON STOP ATTACKS. They didn't intend ppl to just say "hey, **** 90% of the game, im just gonna parry!" Its not fun, its boring, its ****ty, and its killed half the god damn population of the game already.

GET. RID. OF. PARRY.

WaterRUSO
03-06-2017, 09:36 AM
They're nerfing defence, whether you like it or not. Now you poor boys can stop turtling behind your sword/shield all game making us sleep. No one enjoys fighting you, no one wants to fight you. Drawing out a game for 3 minutes playing like a ***** doesn't make you good at the game, it doesn't make you patient, it doesn't make you smart. It just makes you a ****ing insufferable ****.

EmeraldCthulhu
03-06-2017, 11:45 AM
They're nerfing defence, whether you like it or not. Now you poor boys can stop turtling behind your sword/shield all game making us sleep. No one enjoys fighting you, no one wants to fight you. Drawing out a game for 3 minutes playing like a ***** doesn't make you good at the game, it doesn't make you patient, it doesn't make you smart. It just makes you a ****ing insufferable ****.

But fighting light attack/dodge spammers is fine?

The problem about boosting attack is that assassins will be even better then they are. Even if this kind of solution would fix higher skill "turtle"meta, it's quite probable that it would at the same time kill the game on lower skill levels. And low skill players are as important as the high level ones - maybe even more, as there's more of them.

On low levels, is not defence that's king, it's light attack/dodge attack spam. Make it even stronger and you might hurt the game a lot.

Netcode_err_404
03-06-2017, 04:58 PM
But fighting light attack/dodge spammers is fine?

The problem about boosting attack is that assassins will be even better then they are. Even if this kind of solution would fix higher skill "turtle"meta, it's quite probable that it would at the same time kill the game on lower skill levels. And low skill players are as important as the high level ones - maybe even more, as there's more of them.

On low levels, is not defence that's king, it's light attack/dodge attack spam. Make it even stronger and you might hurt the game a lot.

True,but fast attack spam is just assassin's stuff.

Once you make the game PLAYABLE again, you can balance each class. After all, only 3 assassins are in the game, shoudn't be too hard balance them properly


Right now, in my opinion the top priority is to make this game a fighting game. Right now, pvp means passive vs passive.

Too many duels just become a wait game.

I do not attack, you do not attack, we spend 4 minutes feinting and Gb spamming till timer expires, or one of us gets bored and quit.

GenLiu
03-06-2017, 07:08 PM
Or just remove Parry, parry is the freaking problem. And increase heavy damage so someone who ONLY blocks, will eventually die.

I hate all of you saying "mind games, mind games, mind games..." SCREW THE TURTLE. The devs didn't plan on this ****, we wernt given all these different combos to NOT use. Hell berserker is listed as a "harasser" and the showcase video for him shows him BERSERKERING other people. NON STOP ATTACKS. They didn't intend ppl to just say "hey, **** 90% of the game, im just gonna parry!" Its not fun, its boring, its ****ty, and its killed half the god damn population of the game already.

GET. RID. OF. PARRY.

Sure, this is not going to turn the game into an unblockable spamming party...
More seriously, the parry system is a great one which have to stay in the game but just need to be reworked so it doesn't connects on every attacks (or at least don't give the usual benefits if it does on certain moves like light attacks or key moves that are vital to run the offense of the different characters in the game).

WaterRUSO
03-06-2017, 07:41 PM
But fighting light attack/dodge spammers is fine?

The problem about boosting attack is that assassins will be even better then they are. Even if this kind of solution would fix higher skill "turtle"meta, it's quite probable that it would at the same time kill the game on lower skill levels. And low skill players are as important as the high level ones - maybe even more, as there's more of them.

On low levels, is not defence that's king, it's light attack/dodge attack spam. Make it even stronger and you might hurt the game a lot.

Huh? Assassins already dominate lower levels, so what? Especially Peacekeeper who we all know is OP. I am sure they would balance out the attack oriented classes. Have you seen Berserker? An attack oriented hero that can't even do anything because It's too easy to parry and block all of his attacks, It's ridiculous.

Netcode_err_404
03-06-2017, 08:26 PM
Huh? Assassins already dominate lower levels, so what? Especially Peacekeeper who we all know is OP. I am sure they would balance out the attack oriented classes. Have you seen Berserker? An attack oriented hero that can't even do anything because It's too easy to parry and block all of his attacks, It's ridiculous.

What I said, rework the gameplay, then we can buffs/nerfs heroes according to feedbacks.

WaterRUSO
03-06-2017, 08:51 PM
What I said, rework the gameplay, then we can buffs/nerfs heroes according to feedbacks.

Personally I think:

Dodging should cost stamina (like in every other game)
Blocking should cost stamina (like in every other game)

Not sure why the devs decided to be unique in this part.

Mjolnir1337
03-06-2017, 10:06 PM
Personally I think:

Dodging should cost stamina (like in every other game)
Blocking should cost stamina (like in every other game)

Not sure why the devs decided to be unique in this part.

I agree on face value, however then you run into issues where classes who have unblockables become vastly OP. The only way to not get hit by them atm is to dodge/parry.

When you are out of stam, you cant parry, so you are left with dodging. Thats why they made dodge not cost, so you can dodge backwards to create distance OR side-dodge to avoid unblockables.

Imagine Warlord spamming headbutt combo over and over if you ever got out of stamina once.



I do agree about blocking though, and maybe make dodge+action cost MORE stamina (like a side-roll into light attack with assassins). If blocking costs stamina, that would help people not turtle so much.

I think a BIG one they could do is make feints not cost stamina though. This would allow players to spam feints if they wanted. There is already risk/reward to feints. If you feint a heavy, you are subject to being hit while feinting AND it costs stamina. A "double negative" with what reward? Baiting a heavy -> A parry?

The only liability I see with feints not costing stamina is players will feint all day long, but thats a GOOD thing IMO as feints create openings to attack. Either light attacks or GBs.


This is what I would do:
- blocking costs stamina (light attacks would be negligible, heavy attacks should cost a lot).
- feints no longer cost stamina OR atleast significant reduction in stamina cost.

I would see what that does for the game. Then proceed.

WaterRUSO
03-06-2017, 10:55 PM
I agree on face value, however then you run into issues where classes who have unblockables become vastly OP. The only way to not get hit by them atm is to dodge/parry.

When you are out of stam, you cant parry, so you are left with dodging. Thats why they made dodge not cost, so you can dodge backwards to create distance OR side-dodge to avoid unblockables.

Imagine Warlord spamming headbutt combo over and over if you ever got out of stamina once.



I do agree about blocking though, and maybe make dodge+action cost MORE stamina (like a side-roll into light attack with assassins). If blocking costs stamina, that would help people not turtle so much.

I think a BIG one they could do is make feints not cost stamina though. This would allow players to spam feints if they wanted. There is already risk/reward to feints. If you feint a heavy, you are subject to being hit while feinting AND it costs stamina. A "double negative" with what reward? Baiting a heavy -> A parry?

The only liability I see with feints not costing stamina is players will feint all day long, but thats a GOOD thing IMO as feints create openings to attack. Either light attacks or GBs.


This is what I would do:
- blocking costs stamina (light attacks would be negligible, heavy attacks should cost a lot).
- feints no longer cost stamina OR atleast significant reduction in stamina cost.

I would see what that does for the game. Then proceed.

No, I don't want to see Raider spamming unblockable feints. That's annoying. Definitely blocking needs to drain stamina, and I don't think you should be able to block 3 directions like the Warlord, that's ridiculous considering there's only 3 sides to attack from anyways.

Zyrusticae
03-06-2017, 11:27 PM
Being unable to dodge or parry while exhausted itself wouldn't be an issue if they tweaked exhaustion times such that someone could only land one such unblockable attack before the opponent recovers from exhaustion.

Thus, exhaustion becomes a state in which you can land one heavy blow - if you play your cards right. Getting exhausted in the first place implies mismanagement of one's stamina, so frankly, it's only fair. That being said - I think the stamina costs need to be reduced for regular heavy attacks and increased dramatically for unblockables. The balance right now is all kinds of wacky. Heavy attacks have enough downsides as it is without chunking huge amounts of stamina with every swing.

Bob__Gnarly
03-06-2017, 11:35 PM
Or just remove Parry, parry is the freaking problem. And increase heavy damage so someone who ONLY blocks, will eventually die.

I hate all of you saying "mind games, mind games, mind games..." SCREW THE TURTLE. The devs didn't plan on this ****, we wernt given all these different combos to NOT use. Hell berserker is listed as a "harasser" and the showcase video for him shows him BERSERKERING other people. NON STOP ATTACKS. They didn't intend ppl to just say "hey, **** 90% of the game, im just gonna parry!" Its not fun, its boring, its ****ty, and its killed half the god damn population of the game already.

GET. RID. OF. PARRY.

LOL parry is not the problem at all and they will never remove it from the game.

Start using feints, don't just try to dumb down the game further because you're just spamming attacks without thinking. I've versed many good zerkers that throw feints into their combos, you should try it.



When you are out of stam, you cant parry, so you are left with dodging. Thats why they made dodge not cost, so you can dodge backwards to create distance OR side-dodge to avoid unblockables.

That's actually incorrect. You can parry when you're out of stam.

WaterRUSO
03-06-2017, 11:59 PM
LOL parry is not the problem at all and they will never remove it from the game.

Start using feints, don't just try to dumb down the game further because you're just spamming attacks without thinking. I've versed many good zerkers that throw feints into their combos, you should try it.




That's actually incorrect. You can parry when you're out of stam.

Can't feint a "good" opponent. Once they catch on they'll just block everything.

Maaci
03-07-2017, 12:27 AM
LOL parry is not the problem at all and they will never remove it from the game.

Start using feints, don't just try to dumb down the game further because you're just spamming attacks without thinking. I've versed many good zerkers that throw feints into their combos, you should try it.
YOU CANT break the defence right now which is a real problem initself dont you think?????? Or you maybe like infinite duels which are boring as **** to play? Well then, good for you.

Netcode_err_404
03-07-2017, 02:40 AM
LOL parry is not the problem at all and they will never remove it from the game.

Start using feints, don't just try to dumb down the game further because you're just spamming attacks without thinking. I've versed many good zerkers that throw feints into their combos, you should try it.




That's actually incorrect. You can parry when you're out of stam.

Feints are useless with slower classes, and are not SOusefull on fast classes either, just because parries can be feinted too. So, if both opponents are good, is just a feint, feint, GB, Gbcounter, light, light, feint parry.

Its not funny. I honestly like when good players wreck me playing active, but i really hate when good players just do not play and start to parry/block all your attacks. Is both umiliating and boring.

Newer player will start to play like that, and the whole game will be unplayable

Not to mention, if they really want to make this game competitive, if the core gameplay will be the same, i won't watch a single minute of their competitive bullsh1te, cuz boring

Bob__Gnarly
03-07-2017, 02:57 AM
YOU CANT break the defence right now which is a real problem initself dont you think?????? Or you maybe like infinite duels which are boring as **** to play? Well then, good for you.

I never said it wasn't a problem, just that Ubi would never remove a mechanic like parry from the game. Let's come up with a more realistic and less drastic solution.

Maaci
03-07-2017, 03:30 AM
I never said it wasn't a problem, just that Ubi would never remove a mechanic like parry from the game. Let's come up with a more realistic and less drastic solution.
You bloody said that parry isnt the problem at all. Then you further wrote that one should start using feints. WE ARE USING FEINTS SIR!
In what category is "less drastic solution"? What if parry didnt cause damage for example, is that in the "less drastic" or is that a drastic category?

Netcode_err_404
03-07-2017, 03:35 AM
I never said it wasn't a problem, just that Ubi would never remove a mechanic like parry from the game. Let's come up with a more realistic and less drastic solution.

Lot of people's suggestions are valid.

The most common one is to make parries just a way to gain stamina, and drain stamina from the opponent. No more free damage next a parry,

Parries will completely avoid chip damage, while blocking will be less godly. Chip damage needs a consistent buff.
Total block won't fill up revenge bar, and needs to consume stamina each second ( no more unlimited block position)

Dodge needs to cost stamina, block needs to cost stamina.

GB needs to be harder to counter, and needs a cooldown, so people won't abuse it to death.


Just some tips, players suggested, which i find very good ones, without changing the core gameplay.

Then when the game will be playable again, we can talk about each class, and perks, if needed.

Xanthus730
03-07-2017, 04:16 AM
The problem with dodge and block costing stamina is this means, ostensibly, that if you're out of stamina you won't be able to:

roll
block
dodge
parry
attack

Plus, knockdown on throws.

And, as of right now, attacking is your main stamina drain.

So, although this is being suggested in order to weaken defense, it would actually make people much more wary of attacking. Because you get parried after feinting and hit with a charge/headbut, now you're out of stamina and have ZERO defensive options. So, basically the first time you miss an attack, the round is over.

This is WORSE than the current situation.

WaterRUSO
03-07-2017, 04:19 AM
Lot of people's suggestions are valid.

The most common one is to make parries just a way to gain stamina, and drain stamina from the opponent. No more free damage next a parry,

Parries will completely avoid chip damage, while blocking will be less godly. Chip damage needs a consistent buff.
Total block won't fill up revenge bar, and needs to consume stamina each second ( no more unlimited block position)

Dodge needs to cost stamina, block needs to cost stamina.

GB needs to be harder to counter, and needs a cooldown, so people won't abuse it to death.


Just some tips, players suggested, which i find very good ones, without changing the core gameplay.

Then when the game will be playable again, we can talk about each class, and perks, if needed.

Please don't make Guardbreak harder to counter. I was getting ****ing grey hairs when you could only counter it in that tiny window. It's like, you wait for the inevitable guard break, and you know It's going to happen, but oh! You pressed it too early or a second too late, 30% of your HP gone. It should be less grabbing and guard breaking and more sword to sword fighting, so no please don't ****ING make GB harder to counter.

Bob__Gnarly
03-07-2017, 04:42 AM
You bloody said that parry isnt the problem at all. Then you further wrote that one should start using feints. WE ARE USING FEINTS SIR!
In what category is "less drastic solution"? What if parry didnt cause damage for example, is that in the "less drastic" or is that a drastic category?

Settle down there fella. I was referring to the defensive meta being a problem, not parries. Parrying is a core part of the game and should stay. If you're just gonna spam attacks, then you should get punished for it. If you're getting parried too much, then you need to feint more and mix up your attacks.

What needs attention is turtling, it's boring to play someone that doesn't attack and merely sits waiting for an opportunity to counter. There needs to be more ways to open these types of players up, but I don't believe removing parry is the solution and I highly doubt Ubi would remove a core mechanic like that either. Tweak it a little? Possibly. I would prefer to reduce the effectiveness of turtling though. Either take more damage while blocking, make blocking cost stam, I don't know.

Bob__Gnarly
03-07-2017, 04:46 AM
Lot of people's suggestions are valid.

The most common one is to make parries just a way to gain stamina, and drain stamina from the opponent. No more free damage next a parry,

Parries will completely avoid chip damage, while blocking will be less godly. Chip damage needs a consistent buff.
Total block won't fill up revenge bar, and needs to consume stamina each second ( no more unlimited block position)

Dodge needs to cost stamina, block needs to cost stamina.

GB needs to be harder to counter, and needs a cooldown, so people won't abuse it to death.


Just some tips, players suggested, which i find very good ones, without changing the core gameplay.

Then when the game will be playable again, we can talk about each class, and perks, if needed.

I like all of the above suggestions, definitely better then removing parry completely.

Netcode_err_404
03-07-2017, 05:00 AM
The problem with dodge and block costing stamina is this means, ostensibly, that if you're out of stamina you won't be able to:

roll
block
dodge
parry
attack

Plus, knockdown on throws.

And, as of right now, attacking is your main stamina drain.

So, although this is being suggested in order to weaken defense, it would actually make people much more wary of attacking. Because you get parried after feinting and hit with a charge/headbut, now you're out of stamina and have ZERO defensive options. So, basically the first time you miss an attack, the round is over.

This is WORSE than the current situation.

Right, dodge for me, can stay like that, but assaSSIN'S dodge attacks need a rework. Right now, a slow class will get dodged and attacked to death too easily

Netcode_err_404
03-07-2017, 05:04 AM
Please don't make Guardbreak harder to counter. I was getting ****ing grey hairs when you could only counter it in that tiny window. It's like, you wait for the inevitable guard break, and you know It's going to happen, but oh! You pressed it too early or a second too late, 30% of your HP gone. It should be less grabbing and guard breaking and more sword to sword fighting, so no please don't ****ING make GB harder to counter.

I fully understand, but right now, GB is not a good option.

Too easily counterable. The way i see it, is a tool, to open extreme defensive players, but right now, is just a tool, to troll new players, because every prestiged guy won't be GB.

Making it not counterable would balance the fact it will have a cooldown.

Just an opinion btw.

WaterRUSO
03-07-2017, 05:14 AM
I fully understand, but right now, GB is not a good option.

Too easily counterable. The way i see it, is a tool, to open extreme defensive players, but right now, is just a tool, to troll new players, because every prestiged guy won't be GB.

Making it not counterable would balance the fact it will have a cooldown.

Just an opinion btw.

If you make it hard to counter then you better give me a reward for countering it, because It's too easy to ****ing perform. Whatever, they are nerfing defence anyways. It's not going to be a problem.

SethUnleashed
03-07-2017, 08:02 AM
Right, dodge for me, can stay like that, but assaSSIN'S dodge attacks need a rework. Right now, a slow class will get dodged and attacked to death too easily

i dont get why so many people have trouble with this...

so you play against an assassin and you see that he likes to do a lot of side-dodge attacks? BAIT HIM ...
they will fall for it more often than not.

its one of the easiest moves to counter and punish imo.


@topic:
just some ideas

- chip damage on blocks NEEDS to be bigger and a constant thing (like 25-30% of normal damage at least)

- parry should reward you, but the window to do it could be tighter, so it actually needs skill to do (then a punish would be justified)

- light attack blocks stagger time is a problem for many classes (esp berserker, where you cant get ANY pressure out if any light gets blocked). maybe remove stagger on blocks so that you actually need to parry/deflect/dodge and cant just sit there with no downside

- giving guardbreak a charge-system might work too (countering would consume a charge too) ... so maybe you have like 2 charges which re-charge at a rate of 1 per 10-15 seconds or something like that
(this wouldnt really help against turtle meta, BUT it would stop the guardbreak spam and make you think about using it a bit more)
maybe even put parries and guardbreak-counters on the charge-system, so if you parry 2 times in a row, you are out of charges and cant guardbreak counter anymore... this obviously needs a LOT of thought to not be unbalanced, but it would be a possible way to go (but if parries are on the charges, a guaranteed punish after a parry is needed)

- charge attacks (warden shoulder-charge, headbutts, shugokis demons breath, etc) need a cooldown or maybe be put on the above mentioned charges-system to remove the cheap spamming of those abilities.

Maaci
03-07-2017, 10:36 AM
i dont get why so many people have trouble with this...

so you play against an assassin and you see that he likes to do a lot of side-dodge attacks? BAIT HIM ...
they will fall for it more often than not.

its one of the easiest moves to counter and punish imo.


@topic:
just some ideas

- chip damage on blocks NEEDS to be bigger and a constant thing (like 25-30% of normal damage at least)

- parry should reward you, but the window to do it could be tighter, so it actually needs skill to do (then a punish would be justified)

- light attack blocks stagger time is a problem for many classes (esp berserker, where you cant get ANY pressure out if any light gets blocked). maybe remove stagger on blocks so that you actually need to parry/deflect/dodge and cant just sit there with no downside

- giving guardbreak a charge-system might work too (countering would consume a charge too) ... so maybe you have like 2 charges which re-charge at a rate of 1 per 10-15 seconds or something like that
(this wouldnt really help against turtle meta, BUT it would stop the guardbreak spam and make you think about using it a bit more)
maybe even put parries and guardbreak-counters on the charge-system, so if you parry 2 times in a row, you are out of charges and cant guardbreak counter anymore... this obviously needs a LOT of thought to not be unbalanced, but it would be a possible way to go (but if parries are on the charges, a guaranteed punish after a parry is needed)

- charge attacks (warden shoulder-charge, headbutts, shugokis demons breath, etc) need a cooldown or maybe be put on the above mentioned charges-system to remove the cheap spamming of those abilities.
Thats the thing, is the dodge+attack attack feintable, punishable? Yes.
Is the gameplay this revolves around fun? No.

Look gameplay is really easy. Hardcounters are poor gameplay. And this is hardcounter design.
Attack->dodge+attack.
Attack->Feint->punish the dodge+attack.

Its a poor and dull interaction that needs to change. It should be encouraged to attack. But oh well, if you dont see it and many other dont i doubt the developers will see it as well. Time to move on soon.

Krankeman
03-07-2017, 03:38 PM
Hey,

Here are my thoughts on how to improve the never attack (first) meta!

If somebody doesn't even goes for parry's and just blocks than it becomes real hard for some characters to do anything at all! Thats why I think they should implement HEAVY chip damage. If you play the game in custom modes and put damage on high or lethal that's the kind of chip damage I'm talking about! Heavy attacks are currently risky and this way the offencer gets rewarded by still dealing damage and the defender has to respond more with parry's if he does not want to die. Which inturn make feint GB more of a threat.

I know there are currently stats for getting less chip damage and with those maxed you basically take no damage from attacks. The chip blockdamage and chip blockresistend should cancel each other out. And thus with both maxed out still deal significant block chip damage.

This could also be implemented to balance 2v1 out. By making it so that you have to watch out that you don't hit your ally. (this again should do significant damage to your ally instead of basically nothing as it is right now). By doing this you can nerve revenge and reward positioning!

Netcode_err_404
03-07-2017, 03:48 PM
Hey,

Ingame I go by the name of Krankeman. I won the first 1v1 tournanment by cheesing with warlord headbutts. Here are my thoughts on how to improve the never attack (first) meta!

If somebody doesn't even goes for parry's and just blocks than it becomes real hard for some characters to do anything at all! Thats why I think they should implement HEAVY chip damage. If you play the game in custom modes and put damage on high or lethal that's the kind of chip damage I'm talking about! Heavy attacks are currently risky and this way the offencer gets rewarded by still dealing damage and the defender has to respond more with parry's if he does not want to die. Which you can mix up with feint into GB.

I know there are currently stats for getting less chip damage and with those maxed you basically take no damage from attacks. The chip blockdamage and chip blockresistend should cancel each other out. And thus with both maxed out still deal significant block chip damage.

This could also be implemented to balance 2v1 out. By making it so that you have to watch out that you don't hit your ally. (this again should do significant damage to your ally instead of basically nothing as it is right now). By doing this you can nerve revenge and reward positioning!

first, Ty for your comment.

Then I agree with all you said. I think landing a parry is still too easy, i do parries sometimes, and im not even good, I can imagine what happen when you make practice.

I strongly think parries should do 2 things :

1) Drawn stamina from the blocked guy,

2) and make him in a confusion status ( basically when you can't see the directions of the attacks), so to avoid the next hit, you need to roll, block ( but you will still take proper damage) parry, or dodge

Speaking about dodge, it can remain free with no stam consuption. But need a nerf, right now, is too easy to dodge, no matter the direction, i also think it has some sort of Iframe.

Because lot of people dodged basically inside my blade with no damage taken, thats dumb in my opinion.

GB is still a major problem because it needs to be usefull, but not exploitable, and here comes my "resolve bar", who will fill up after 2 gb, after that you are immune to GB for X seconds. Ofc the GBC needs a rework too, right now is way too easy counter it.

WaterRUSO
03-07-2017, 07:00 PM
Hey,

Here are my thoughts on how to improve the never attack (first) meta!

If somebody doesn't even goes for parry's and just blocks than it becomes real hard for some characters to do anything at all! Thats why I think they should implement HEAVY chip damage. If you play the game in custom modes and put damage on high or lethal that's the kind of chip damage I'm talking about! Heavy attacks are currently risky and this way the offencer gets rewarded by still dealing damage and the defender has to respond more with parry's if he does not want to die. Which inturn make feint GB more of a threat.

I know there are currently stats for getting less chip damage and with those maxed you basically take no damage from attacks. The chip blockdamage and chip blockresistend should cancel each other out. And thus with both maxed out still deal significant block chip damage.

This could also be implemented to balance 2v1 out. By making it so that you have to watch out that you don't hit your ally. (this again should do significant damage to your ally instead of basically nothing as it is right now). By doing this you can nerve revenge and reward positioning!

This is definitely what they will or should definitely go for. I don't understand why they have stats that are virtually useless. The only time I've actually seen considerable chip damage is when I heavy attacked a peacekeeper with Revenge as Warden and he died. The minimum should maybe be 30/40% of the damage, and it should DEFINITELY be increased depending on the class blocking. Peacekeeper should NOT be able to block heavy attacks without at least taking the majority of the damage from it PERIOD.

I also really like that 2v1 concept as well. When I bought the game I thought I would see more allies hurting eachother, like they could in Chivalry if they just wide swung to kill one person. Now that I think about it your idea is probably the best, as it is both already implemented in the game, and only needs tweaking, and adopts viable mechanics from other games. GJ

Netcode_err_404
03-07-2017, 07:28 PM
This is definitely what they will or should definitely go for. I don't understand why they have stats that are virtually useless. The only time I've actually seen considerable chip damage is when I heavy attacked a peacekeeper with Revenge as Warden and he died. The minimum should maybe be 30/40% of the damage, and it should DEFINITELY be increased depending on the class blocking. Peacekeeper should NOT be able to block heavy attacks without at least taking the majority of the damage from it PERIOD.

I also really like that 2v1 concept as well. When I bought the game I thought I would see more allies hurting eachother, like they could in Chivalry if they just wide swung to kill one person. Now that I think about it your idea is probably the best, as it is both already implemented in the game, and only needs tweaking, and adopts viable mechanics from other games. GJ

I really love the idea of hurting MUCH MORE your allies.

True, that would encourage trolls, but they could put the autokick if you hurt/kill too much friendly guys.

Assassin should take MUCH more damage fromblocks. Their duty is to dodge/parry/deflect, not block.

WaterRUSO
03-07-2017, 07:46 PM
I really love the idea of hurting MUCH MORE your allies.

True, that would encourage trolls, but they could put the autokick if you hurt/kill too much friendly guys.

Assassin should take MUCH more damage fromblocks. Their duty is to dodge/parry/deflect, not block.

Yes, and blocking should maybe even cost stamina. Imagine if in Dark Souls you could just block the entire boss fight? lol

Netcode_err_404
03-07-2017, 08:05 PM
Yes, and blocking should maybe even cost stamina. Imagine if in Dark Souls you could just block the entire boss fight? lol

Absolutely agree. Block needs to be an "last second defense" when you see the hit coming in the last very second, not something to use to basically be a tank.

Netcode_err_404
03-07-2017, 08:15 PM
Yes, and blocking should maybe even cost stamina. Imagine if in Dark Souls you could just block the entire boss fight? lol

Absolutely agree. Block needs to be an "last second defense" when you see the hit coming in the last very second, not something to use to basically be a tank.

I would also like a "Keep the stick to one side for lets say 1.5 sec, to abilitate the parry stance", don't know if its clear enough. Not a native speaker, sorry :(

Netcode_err_404
03-08-2017, 04:29 PM
Absolutely agree. Block needs to be an "last second defense" when you see the hit coming in the last very second, not something to use to basically be a tank.

I would also like a "Keep the stick to one side for lets say 1.5 sec, to abilitate the parry stance", don't know if its clear enough. Not a native speaker, sorry :(

Ofc, assassins are already ultra fast so, i think their light attacks spam, need to be looked at. If they make heavies pass through blocks.

This thread reached 20+k views, so, i'd like to hear from a dev, if they plan to fix this.

GenLiu
03-08-2017, 08:36 PM
Absolutely agree. Block needs to be an "last second defense" when you see the hit coming in the last very second, not something to use to basically be a tank.
I strongly disagree with that, For honor is one of the very few game to be defensive oriented, let's not make it a Soul Calibur 2.0.
Adjusting the defensive aspect of the game so that it's not as potent at highest level of play, yes but changing the game completely so that it becomes a brainless "mash the attack button" game no thanks.

Blocking is and must remains the primary way of defending yourself and sorry to say but it's not that hard to deal with it, especially if you're at low/intermediate level of play.

Netcode_err_404
03-08-2017, 08:46 PM
I strongly disagree with that, For honor is one of the very few game to be defensive oriented, let's not make it a Soul Calibur 2.0.
Adjusting the defensive aspect of the game so that it's not as potent at highest level of play, yes but changing the game completely so that it becomes a brainless "mash the attack button" game no thanks.

Blocking is and must remains the primary way of defending yourself and sorry to say but it's not that hard to deal with it, especially if you're at low/intermediate level of play.


Fact is, is not funny.

Is soul calibur funny ?

GenLiu
03-09-2017, 12:41 AM
Fact is, is not funny.

Is soul calibur funny ?

I think you mean "fun".

So, to answer your question, For honor isn't fun for players who don't like defensive games but it doesn't mean it's not for everyone and considering how many peoples gave a positive feedback about the game, I can safely say that I'm far from being alone.

I do think that For honor is a really fun game to play right now and the defensive aspect give an intensity that other games don't. Kinda reminds me of Bushido blade (which was considered one of the best fighting game ever for some people including me).

Soul Calibur is fun but in a different way and that's exactly the point, when I want to play SC I play SC, I don't need For honor to become the same game and I love it the way it is, different and unic (specifically for the way defense works in this game).

psyminion
03-09-2017, 01:09 AM
I think you mean "fun".

So, to answer your question, For honor isn't fun for players who don't like defensive games but it doesn't mean it's not for everyone and considering how many peoples gave a positive feedback about the game, I can safely say that I'm far from being alone.

I do think that For honor is a really fun game to play right now and the defensive aspect give an intensity that other games don't. Kinda reminds me of Bushido blade (which was considered one of the best fighting game ever for some people including me).

Soul Calibur is fun but in a different way and that's exactly the point, when I want to play SC I play SC, I don't need For honor to become the same game and I love it the way it is, different and unic (specifically for the way defense works in this game).

so much this^

Bushido blade was one of my favorite fighting games, and For Honor really captures that visceral experience of edged combat imo.

glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way!

Prznitelka
03-09-2017, 07:41 AM
I choose Shugoki. Even when I know some Shugoki movement bugs I use it because of Demons Embrace. Not for 1 hit kill but because of defensive persons. It can go through only blocking players.... For example: Yesterday I fight Warden. He only stand, not attack but only block all attacks and wait for parry. Of course he won all three fights. Defensive style with parry stun work best. If I will stand still ... I think fight will end with draw.

For this reason we can see more Lawbringers. They have some good unblockable attacks which can go through defensive game style. Warlords too.

But of course ... defensive play with only parry / GB tryes is not good for this game.

SethUnleashed
03-09-2017, 08:57 AM
Thats the thing, is the dodge+attack attack feintable, punishable? Yes.
Is the gameplay this revolves around fun? No.

Look gameplay is really easy. Hardcounters are poor gameplay. And this is hardcounter design.
Attack->dodge+attack.
Attack->Feint->punish the dodge+attack.

Its a poor and dull interaction that needs to change. It should be encouraged to attack. But oh well, if you dont see it and many other dont i doubt the developers will see it as well. Time to move on soon.

you totally missed my point though...

i agree that the defense > attack situation is a problem,

i just answered to those who always complain about how "dodge-attacks are too good and unstoppable" when they just attack an assassin and wonder why the get dodge-attacked.
the part about baiting a dodge-attack was just some advice for those whiners, nothing more.

Maaci
03-09-2017, 07:28 PM
I think you mean "fun".

So, to answer your question, For honor isn't fun for players who don't like defensive games but it doesn't mean it's not for everyone and considering how many peoples gave a positive feedback about the game, I can safely say that I'm far from being alone.

I do think that For honor is a really fun game to play right now and the defensive aspect give an intensity that other games don't. Kinda reminds me of Bushido blade (which was considered one of the best fighting game ever for some people including me).

Soul Calibur is fun but in a different way and that's exactly the point, when I want to play SC I play SC, I don't need For honor to become the same game and I love it the way it is, different and unic (specifically for the way defense works in this game).
Yeah sure, but it also deponds on where your skilllevel are. Thats where it gets so hard to understand what you really like or someone else like. You say you like the defensive part of this game but it still doesnt give a picture of what kind of opponents you play against.

The game becomes more boring the further up in "skill" you go. The game was fun the first 15hours or so for me, then it became dull as hell.
I like that defence is strong for example but i still dislike the game.

You see, we dont know what kind of opponents I face or you face. So please enlighten us so one could understand your perspective better.

I can start. When i play against one opponent of my skill level, you dont even hit a light attack, not even a fast light attack. You cant guardbreak the opponent, you cant charge the opponent(only warden is the exception there since you have to guess), you cant bait the opponent with a feint.

Sidestepping+attacking doesnt work. Like literally nothing works, you are playing a feint heavy game against each other and no one baits. This can go on for several minutes. Its REALLY REALLY LAME and boring.

To win you need luck, either through someone messing up or you take chances such as "if he go for a GB, and i hit just before he do that i get a hit", stuff like that.

Yes i like defensive games, or i like that defence can be really strong but when the defence cant be broken(literally) then the game becomes pointless, you dont agree? Tell me your experience, are you having the same experience as me? If so, you really like taht you need this luck to win?
Or ytou dont agree that you need luck to win? I would like to see from your perspective so i could understand where your "defensive like" is coming from.




you totally missed my point though...

i agree that the defense > attack situation is a problem,

i just answered to those who always complain about how "dodge-attacks are too good and unstoppable" when they just attack an assassin and wonder why the get dodge-attacked.
the part about baiting a dodge-attack was just some advice for those whiners, nothing more.
Ok i see. Maybe they whine because they feel its boring to play against. I feel its a boring mechanic and i know how to "stop" it or not "let them" do it.

GenLiu
03-09-2017, 08:00 PM
Yeah sure, but it also deponds on where your skilllevel are. Thats where it gets so hard to understand what you really like or someone else like. You say you like the defensive part of this game but it still doesnt give a picture of what kind of opponents you play against.

The game becomes more boring the further up in "skill" you go. The game was fun the first 15hours or so for me, then it became dull as hell.
I like that defence is strong for example but i still dislike the game.

You see, we dont know what kind of opponents I face or you face. So please enlighten us so one could understand your perspective better.

I can start. When i play against one opponent of my skill level, you dont even hit a light attack, not even a fast light attack. You cant guardbreak the opponent, you cant charge the opponent(only warden is the exception there since you have to guess), you cant bait the opponent with a feint.

Sidestepping+attacking doesnt work. Like literally nothing works, you are playing a feint heavy game against each other and no one baits. This can go on for several minutes. Its REALLY REALLY LAME and boring.

To win you need luck, either through someone messing up or you take chances such as "if he go for a GB, and i hit just before he do that i get a hit", stuff like that.

Yes i like defensive games, or i like that defence can be really strong but when the defence cant be broken(literally) then the game becomes pointless, you dont agree? Tell me your experience, are you having the same experience as me? If so, you really like taht you need this luck to win?
Or ytou dont agree that you need luck to win? I would like to see from your perspective so i could understand where your "defensive like" is coming from.




Ok i see. Maybe they whine because they feel its boring to play against. I feel its a boring mechanic and i know how to "stop" it or not "let them" do it.

The meta you're playing in doesn't even exist. I watch high level tournaments and they can develop an offensive game just fine.
Don't take it the wrong way but maybe you're too predictable, maybe you need to practice more your offense so it works better.

To describe what I encounter, it depends on the player but it's basically a very defensive game indeed, with players tech GB and landing parries very reliably so yes, I have to be careful with what I do but I manage. Feint works if you use them well (for example feinting R2 cancel GB at close range with my Kensei works quiet fine. provided I keep it as a mix up option). I chose every moment I attack and every attack I use very carefully and adapt my style to my opponent, try not to use anything too predictable (which is the reason why I said that some attacks should be parry resistant, after a certain point of skill, some move become completely useless because it means an instant parry/dodge into punish every single time, which is a shame) and more importantly, try to fine the breach in my opponent's defense (because they're is always a breach, a light attack here, a none teched GB there. It's like building a wall, you have to make it piece after piece and take what you can...).

And of course, I also have my share of less skilled players by time to time, those who feel like vacations but sometimes make you face palm on your own self because you missed one GB....and you were standing next to a pit when it happened lol

WaterRUSO
03-09-2017, 08:37 PM
The meta you're playing in doesn't even exist. I watch high level tournaments and they can develop an offensive game just fine.
Don't take it the wrong way but maybe you're too predictable, maybe you need to practice more your offense so it works better.

To describe what I encounter, it depends on the player but it's basically a very defensive game indeed, with players tech GB and landing parries very reliably so yes, I have to be careful with what I do but I manage. Feint works if you use them well (for example feinting R2 cancel GB at close range with my Kensei works quiet fine. provided I keep it as a mix up option). I chose every moment I attack and every attack I use very carefully and adapt my style to my opponent, try not to use anything too predictable (which is the reason why I said that some attacks should be parry resistant, after a certain point of skill, some move become completely useless because it means an instant parry/dodge into punish every single time, which is a shame) and more importantly, try to fine the breach in my opponent's defense (because they're is always a breach, a light attack here, a none teched GB there. It's like building a wall, you have to make it piece after piece and take what you can...).

And of course, I also have my share of less skilled players by time to time, those who feel like vacations but sometimes make you face palm on your own self because you missed one GB....and you were standing next to a pit when it happened lol

How many hours do you have in this game? I highly doubt you're good enough to speak for anyone, let alone even go up against good players.

GenLiu
03-09-2017, 08:45 PM
How many hours do you have in this game? I highly doubt you're good enough to speak for anyone, let alone even go up against good players.

I never spoke for anyone nor I claimed to be good, I was just answering the question Maaci asked me about the environment I was playing in.
To answer your question : A hell of a lot but I didn't checked exactly. It doesn't matter though since the number of hours you spend on a game is not reflecting your skill anyway.

WaterRUSO
03-09-2017, 08:49 PM
I never spoke for anyone nor I claimed to be good, I was just answering the question Maaci asked me about the environment I was playing in.
To answer your question : A hell of a lot but I didn't checked exactly. It doesn't matter though since the number of hours you spend on a game is not reflecting your skill anyway.

False. Players with only 50 hours or less are trash at this game. Also you keep saying "Oh well you can get past their defence! The defence meta is not a problem!." That's you speaking for more than just yourself. Of course if you think the game should not be changed based solely off your experiences then you're incorrect anyways.

Maaci
03-09-2017, 09:00 PM
Wasnt that tournament the first ever in for honor? Either way, how do you know they are the best players?
Would appreciate some vods because i cant find it.

GenLiu
03-09-2017, 09:05 PM
False. Players with only 50 hours or less are trash at this game. Also you keep saying "Oh well you can get past their defence! The defence meta is not a problem!." That's you speaking for more than just yourself. Of course if you think the game should not be changed based solely off your experiences then you're incorrect anyways.

I think you misunderstood my message.
Maaci was asking me what environment I was playing in so of course I'm talking about my own experience.
I never said that everyone can find a breach in his opponent's defense, I said in MY environment of play there is always a breach in my opponent's defense.

WaterRUSO
03-09-2017, 09:17 PM
I think you misunderstood my message.
Maaci was asking me what environment I was playing in so of course I'm talking about my own experience.
I never said that everyone can find a breach in his opponent's defense, I said in MY environment of play there is always a breach in my opponent's defense.

So you understand that the defensive meta is a problem right? It's extremely boring and tedious. There's only one character who can effectively breach through defence and that's Warden, and even then they just backstep roll away. If you play anyone else they just wait for you to attack and It's actually infuriating. This is NOT how a fighting game should be. If you're sitting there blocking you should take damage, just like in boxing when you're getting punched through your gloves you get hurt.

Netcode_err_404
03-09-2017, 09:34 PM
So you understand that the defensive meta is a problem right? It's extremely boring and tedious. There's only one character who can effectively breach through defence and that's Warden, and even then they just backstep roll away. If you play anyone else they just wait for you to attack and It's actually infuriating. This is NOT how a fighting game should be. If you're sitting there blocking you should take damage, just like in boxing when you're getting punched through your gloves you get hurt.

WIll eventually get fixed. Too many people are complaining about it, and in my opinion they are right. Game is awesome, gameplay is not, BUT can become so, with the right fixes.

GenLiu
03-09-2017, 09:50 PM
So you understand that the defensive meta is a problem right? It's extremely boring and tedious. There's only one character who can effectively breach through defence and that's Warden, and even then they just backstep roll away. If you play anyone else they just wait for you to attack and It's actually infuriating. This is NOT how a fighting game should be. If you're sitting there blocking you should take damage, just like in boxing when you're getting punched through your gloves you get hurt.

Sure and that's exactly why I said earlier in this thread (and made a topic to collect feedback from other player about the issue).
What I said though is that even if defense is too dominant now it's important not to revert the situation and make For honor another offensive based game. Ubi has to find a balance so that the game is still defensive based but not as frustrating as it is right now for highest level of players.

Netcode_err_404
03-09-2017, 11:51 PM
Sure and that's exactly why I said earlier in this thread (and made a topic to collect feedback from other player about the issue).
What I said though is that even if defense is too dominant now it's important not to revert the situation and make For honor another offensive based game. Ubi has to find a balance so that the game is still defensive based but not as frustrating as it is right now for highest level of players.

AT least we agree on the defensive problems :p

@GenLiu

Yes I mean "Fun" sorry for the gram mistake. Not a native speaker here

GenLiu
03-10-2017, 12:57 AM
AT least we agree on the defensive problems :p

@GenLiu

Yes I mean "Fun" sorry for the gram mistake. Not a native speaker here

No problem, I didn't mentioned it to make you feel bad, I genuinely respect the effort you do to speak English and you're doing it quiet well imo.

Netcode_err_404
03-10-2017, 05:20 PM
No problem, I didn't mentioned it to make you feel bad, I genuinely respect the effort you do to speak English and you're doing it quiet well imo.

Really appreciated

V1ZI0N
03-10-2017, 06:28 PM
Adding chipp damage on lights would help balance the current meta imo.

Netcode_err_404
03-10-2017, 06:42 PM
Adding chipp damage on lights would help balance the current meta imo.

Assassins would be unstoppable

GenLiu
03-10-2017, 07:37 PM
Adding chipp damage on lights would help balance the current meta imo.

Well, that's specifically the type of change I'm not a huge fan of, because it will revert the situation and give too much power to offensive play.
I prefer attacking parries or make blocking consuming stamina (for example) rather than increasing chip damage and applying them on every hit.

Besides, it's really not new at all, like every other fighting games has chip damage, it sounds so boring to me.

Netcode_err_404
03-10-2017, 07:54 PM
Well, that's specifically the type of change I'm not a huge fan of, because it will revert the situation and give too much power to offensive play.
I prefer attacking parries or make blocking consuming stamina (for example) rather than increasing chip damage and applying them on every hit.

Besides, it's really not new at all, like every other fighting games has chip damage, it sounds so boring to me.

BLock is too powerful.

Is so good, a good exhausted player will just tutle with blocks till full stamina. You cannot feint a hit because they know you are going to bait, so they will just turtle, and start to block every attack.

And no, unparriable are not even a viable choice, because for some classes to start an unparriable you need a succesfull combo, but if a normal blocl can indeed stop a combo, theres no reason to have combos at all.

Its a system that needs a rework, right now, half of the stuff you can do with a character, are not even viable against some playstyles.

I don't want this game to be a r1 spam fest, and here you are right, but io don't want it to be a chess game either. Some dinamicity needs to be applied

here.

Some games are just feint fest, where all will just end in :

Feint >GB

Feint heavy into a ligh
Feint a heavy into another heavy
Feint a heavy into a GB.and if successfull GB + r2.

Repeat.

That or just warden MISERUM spam vortex.

Munktor
03-10-2017, 07:55 PM
Well, that's specifically the type of change I'm not a huge fan of, because it will revert the situation and give too much power to offensive play.
I prefer attacking parries or make blocking consuming stamina (for example) rather than increasing chip damage and applying them on every hit.

Besides, it's really not new at all, like every other fighting games has chip damage, it sounds so boring to me.

I worry that making blocks cost stamina would create the Dark Souls PVP issue of roll/attack/roll. It'd be a different kind of boring, but still boring.

A good change (imo) would be making all blocking like assassins from "neutral" position. Then make GB and CGB only possible from said "neutral" position.

Now you have to time blocks & parries, as well cannot be ready to CGB unless you're in neutral.

It'd force more thought around when to block and when to attack, or when to just be prepared to counter.

GenLiu
03-10-2017, 08:04 PM
I worry that making blocks cost stamina would create the Dark Souls PVP issue of roll/attack/roll. It'd be a different kind of boring, but still boring.
Possible but it worth testing (from Ubi's position) maybe with the correct balance it could work.
In any case I think the first step is to make some attacks (light and key attacks from characters) parry resistant (like in SF3.3) so at least players at highest level don't fear to get parried every time they throw a light at their opponent and can safely develop an offensive game plan.

Munktor
03-10-2017, 08:34 PM
Possible but it worth testing (from Ubi's position) maybe with the correct balance it could work.
In any case I think the first step is to make some attacks (light and key attacks from characters) parry resistant (like in SF3.3) so at least players at highest level don't fear to get parried every time they throw a light at their opponent and can safely develop an offensive game plan.

You have any thoughts on my potential solution?

V1ZI0N
03-10-2017, 08:41 PM
Possible but it worth testing (from Ubi's position) maybe with the correct balance it could work.
In any case I think the first step is to make some attacks (light and key attacks from characters) parry resistant (like in SF3.3) so at least players at highest level don't fear to get parried every time they throw a light at their opponent and can safely develop an offensive game plan.

Are you referring to 3rd Strike with (SF 3.3)? Because lights are definitely able to be parried in 3S, along with any other attack not having throw properties.

This isn't a bad suggestion tho, but I wish there were some kind of mechanic to punish full turtle (only block while waiting for parries).

I would've liked if they had implemented a guard guage with negative penalties once it gets too full, whether it be traditional guard break, defense reduction (take more damage on hit), or whatever. They could even adjust the rate the guard guage is filled per character, since some chars have to block more than others by design and they should not be punished as much.

I have a feeling most others would be against this concept though since a guard gauge mechanic is used in other fighting games.

Netcode_err_404
03-10-2017, 10:40 PM
Still curios about Ubisoft's intentions :p

Maaci
03-10-2017, 11:03 PM
In any case I think the first step is to make some attacks (light and key attacks from characters) parry resistant (like in SF3.3) so at least players at highest level don't fear to get parried every time they throw a light at their opponent and can safely develop an offensive game plan.
Something like that, yeah. Keyword here is offensive game play which doesnt really exist in the game and something like that needs to exist.

Maaci
03-10-2017, 11:08 PM
I don't want this game to be a r1 spam fest, and here you are right, but io don't want it to be a chess game either
About that chess game part. Not sure a game like this could ever become about "smart skillfull play" since in this game, you need to take guesses quite often.
While in chess, its all about skill. just saying.

Netcode_err_404
03-11-2017, 01:34 AM
About that chess game part. Not sure a game like this could ever become about "smart skillfull play" since in this game, you need to take guesses quite often.
While in chess, its all about skill. just saying.

Yes, yes, iI meant the " I wait your turn" part, which is quite a good tactic in the current version of the game

Varicose_Veins
03-11-2017, 01:40 AM
Short of a redesign, really what can they do? My guess is they'll try and chip-damage their way out of it, but really, this doesn't address the fundamental issue(s) and there will be still too much luck/guess factor compared to skill.

Netcode_err_404
03-11-2017, 04:57 AM
Short of a redesign, really what can they do? My guess is they'll try and chip-damage their way out of it, but really, this doesn't address the fundamental issue(s) and there will be still too much luck/guess factor compared to skill.

If they increase by a lot the chip damage ( balancing the damage for every class, slow ones must hit harder), and remove the free GB after a parry, im already fine honestly.

My main is a lawbringer, and its impossible to play vs some players if they decide to parry me only.

I'd like to see chip damage doubled vs exhausted players, because im honestly tired of watching exhausetd PK's or orochis, just speed dodge their way out, without even beeing able to reach them.

Guardbreak needs a rework, needs to be an assured thing, but not spammable.

Right now, is just useless.

Maaci
03-11-2017, 05:47 AM
Adding chip damage only wouldnt do a single got damn thing

GiganticKORAK
03-11-2017, 06:20 AM
Uhh... add a block point mechanics?
Much like stamina, if you block attacks, you lose the block points.
And when it is broken, you can no longer block for a set amount of time much like exhaustion?

This way, if you just keep blocking, your block point would eventually run out and then every attack would turn into unblockable for awhile. It should also prevent you from unlocking just to run away when the block bar is depleted, since I know people would just unlock and run away when the block bar is empty.

This is one solution to the block meta. Parrying takes risks, but block does not. This would change that.

GenLiu
03-11-2017, 09:15 AM
You have any thoughts on my potential solution?
I think it's a good idea but it might be too beginner unfriendly.


Are you referring to 3rd Strike with (SF 3.3)? Because lights are definitely able to be parried in 3S, along with any other attack not having throw properties.

This isn't a bad suggestion tho, but I wish there were some kind of mechanic to punish full turtle (only block while waiting for parries).

I would've liked if they had implemented a guard guage with negative penalties once it gets too full, whether it be traditional guard break, defense reduction (take more damage on hit), or whatever. They could even adjust the rate the guard guage is filled per character, since some chars have to block more than others by design and they should not be punished as much.

I have a feeling most others would be against this concept though since a guard gauge mechanic is used in other fighting games.
Yes, I'm refering to Street Fighter Third Stirke.
Light can be parried in this game but they're "parry resistant", which mean parries don't give the full frame advantage (unlike parrying strong attacks, for example, which freezes your opponent for a full punish).
This is exactly what should be done in For honor. Light attack should still be possible to parry but they shouldn't give a full punish opportunity in return (it could provide a small benefit in exchange, like draining a few stamina from your opponent for example).

Mr_Gallows
03-11-2017, 11:04 AM
The hard counter meta is just boring. I like parry, even though it is not hard to do, it does add an element of skill to the game. Parry just has a bad effect on the game because for many characters it's the only way to reliably hit with a heavy attack. If the balancing of blocking both heavy and light attacks was better, the core gameplay mechanic of the three attack/defence zones would be better and create a more varied play.

Two tiers of attack - light and heavy.
With that they should have made two tiers of block - half and full.

Half block should be instant for everyone, but the number of frames required to reach full block could vary across characters to balance the slow and quick classes. Half block would block light attacks and full block would block both light and heavy attack. Half block could slightly reduce damage of heavy attacks. After that they should balance the attack speeds slightly across characters. With that would be a redesign of parry so it doesn't allow free damage, but does allow parry of a heavy attack from half block. It would stop combos of course, drain stamina and perhaps make the next heavy attack slightly quicker.

Netcode_err_404
03-11-2017, 04:01 PM
Lot of valid idead here, it is up to ubisoft now.

GenLiu
03-11-2017, 07:28 PM
The hard counter meta is just boring. I like parry, even though it is not hard to do, it does add an element of skill to the game. Parry just has a bad effect on the game because for many characters it's the only way to reliably hit with a heavy attack. If the balancing of blocking both heavy and light attacks was better, the core gameplay mechanic of the three attack/defence zones would be better and create a more varied play.

Two tiers of attack - light and heavy.
With that they should have made two tiers of block - half and full.

Half block should be instant for everyone, but the number of frames required to reach full block could vary across characters to balance the slow and quick classes. Half block would block light attacks and full block would block both light and heavy attack. Half block could slightly reduce damage of heavy attacks. After that they should balance the attack speeds slightly across characters. With that would be a redesign of parry so it doesn't allow free damage, but does allow parry of a heavy attack from half block. It would stop combos of course, drain stamina and perhaps make the next heavy attack slightly quicker.

As I said on your original topic I really like the idea of partial block and full block.
It has to be well balanced so the penalty from blocking a strong attack in partial block isn't too ridiculous but I'm agree that Strong attacks are not consistent enough in this game, especially since they're quiet easy to parry (sometimes even extremely easy, depending on the character you're facing).

WaterRUSO
03-12-2017, 04:05 AM
Imagine if everytime you chained a heavy attack it turned into an unblockable? For example Warden light into heavy (unblockable) or heavy into heavy (unblockable).

Xanthus730
03-12-2017, 08:31 AM
Imagine if everytime you chained a heavy attack it turned into an unblockable? For example Warden light into heavy (unblockable) or heavy into heavy (unblockable).

That seems a bit too strong. But combos right now are basically just low-tier parry-bait.
I would like to see combo'd attacks be un-parryable, or speed up each swing or something. Or allow feints without breaking the combo.

Additionally light combos are even worse because just a block breaks it.

Varicose_Veins
03-12-2017, 10:37 AM
Lot of valid idead here, it is up to ubisoft now.

The bad news is I'm not really sure how this issue ranks with Ubi's priorities.

It didn't even rate a mention in last weeks Warrior's Den live broadcast and they've never discussed it or alluded to it here in these forums or on Reddit.

In reality though, it should be the top issue.

Mr_Gallows
03-12-2017, 11:00 AM
The bad news is I'm not really sure how this issue ranks with Ubi's priorities.

It didn't even rate a mention in last weeks Warrior's Den live broadcast and they've never discussed it or alluded to it here in these forums or on Reddit.

In reality though, it should be the top issue.

True. If they don't fix the very core of gameplay, their little balance tweaks will be pointless. At least the imbalances give some uncertainty to the meta right now.

But the meta of chasing parries is bad. They need to make parries something else. The mechanic of parrying is cool and however easy it is, it remains a skill move.

If parry wasn't the best offensive tool, but instead a defensive tool allowing the one parrying to take initiative, then chasing the parry would no longer be at the center of gameplay. Throwing out a heavy attack would suddenly become part of fighting - even if parried, it doesn't ensure your opponent free damage.

Felis_Menari
03-12-2017, 11:28 AM
True. If they don't fix the very core of gameplay, their little balance tweaks will be pointless. At least the imbalances give some uncertainty to the meta right now.

But the meta of chasing parries is bad. They need to make parries something else. The mechanic of parrying is cool and however easy it is, it remains a skill move.

If parry wasn't the best offensive tool, but instead a defensive tool allowing the one parrying to take initiative, then chasing the parry would no longer be at the center of gameplay. Throwing out a heavy attack would suddenly become part of fighting - even if parried, it doesn't ensure your opponent free damage.

Hmmm...removing guaranteed damage off of parry (heavy parry, mind you. Light parries do need some reward for the effort required since they are significantly more difficult to pull off) could actually be really nice. The question then becomes, should GB still be guaranteed on a light parry, or should just a light attack be guaranteed? If it's the latter, then the LB's Blind Justice would have to be sped up to still be guaranteed (it's gotta be this way, or it's damn near useless).

Mr_Gallows
03-12-2017, 11:41 AM
Hmmm...removing guaranteed damage off of parry (heavy parry, mind you. Light parries do need some reward for the effort required since they are significantly more difficult to pull off) could actually be really nice. The question then becomes, should GB still be guaranteed on a light parry, or should just a light attack be guaranteed? If it's the latter, then the LB's Blind Justice would have to be sped up to still be guaranteed (it's gotta be this way, or it's damn near useless).

Yes along with this, some abilities would have to be rebalanced to take into account that the one being parried isn't staggered and unable to defend himself.

If for instance parry gave the one parrying some benefits like his next heavy attack being quicker and then disabled the one being parried from attacking and GB for a moment. That would ensure a change in initiative. I would also move parry to the feint button, so that the parry baiting goes away, because it reinforces that parry chasing mentality. If you do a parry and no attack connects because the opponent feinted, you are left open to a light attack during recovery. Using the feint button would work fine, because if you use the button when not attacking, it could initiate a parry.

If parry was fixed, that still leaves us with one issue. Blocking heavy attacks is too easy. Blocking light attacks must be more balanced at the same time. The simplest way to fix this is to take the same approach to blocking as the game has to attacking. Two tiers of attacking (light and heavy) needs two tiers of blocking (half and full).

Half and full block.
When you switch guard, you will instantly Enter half block which allows you to block light attacks. It takes a number of frames for the direction indicator to fill up and become full block, allowing you to block heavy attacks. This allows the developers to balance both heavy and light attacks perfectly, where both will be viable attacks. With parry being defensive in nature only shifting initiative, this will open up the game a lot.

Felis_Menari
03-12-2017, 12:11 PM
Yes along with this, some abilities would have to be rebalanced to take into account that the one being parried isn't staggered and unable to defend himself.

If for instance parry gave the one parrying some benefits like his next heavy attack being quicker and then disabled the one being parried from attacking and GB for a moment. That would ensure a change in initiative. I would also move parry to the feint button, so that the parry baiting goes away, because it reinforces that parry chasing mentality. If you do a parry and no attack connects because the opponent feinted, you are left open to a light attack during recovery. Using the feint button would work fine, because if you use the button when not attacking, it could initiate a parry.

If parry was fixed, that still leaves us with one issue. Blocking heavy attacks is too easy. Blocking light attacks must be more balanced at the same time. The simplest way to fix this is to take the same approach to blocking as the game has to attacking. Two tiers of attacking (light and heavy) needs two tiers of blocking (half and full).

Half and full block.
When you switch guard, you will instantly Enter half block which allows you to block light attacks. It takes a number of frames for the direction indicator to fill up and become full block, allowing you to block heavy attacks. This allows the developers to balance both heavy and light attacks perfectly, where both will be viable attacks. With parry being defensive in nature only shifting initiative, this will open up the game a lot.

Moving an important, necessarily on-demand input like parrying to a harder-to-reach-in-timevbutton is *not* an appropriate solution; difficulty of input should never be a factor. And if your half/full guard proposal were to go through, then the Berserker would need an overhaul to its left/right combo chain. As it currently stands, heavies and lights in this chain look identical (as far as I can tell) and travel at the same speed. The stagger on block from these attacks is so great that it's extremely difficult to get a parry in (part of this may be due to my LB's guard switch speed). Without an overhaul, the Berserker could become an unstoppable force with your half/full block system.

Mr_Gallows
03-12-2017, 12:15 PM
Moving an important, necessarily on-demand input like parrying to a harder-to-reach-in-timevbutton is *not* an appropriate solution; difficulty of input should never be a factor. And if your half/full guard proposal were to go through, then the Berserker would need an overhaul to its left/right combo chain. As it currently stands, heavies and lights in this chain look identical (as far as I can tell) and travel at the same speed. The stagger on block from these attacks is so great that it's extremely difficult to get a parry in (part of this may be due to my LB's guard switch speed). Without an overhaul, the Berserker could become an unstoppable force with your half/full block system.

You are right, things should be balanced for this to work. Just fixing the parry would go a long way, fixing block and attack balance for both light and heavy would be great though. I find it easy enough to parry berserkers, but the slow guard of some characters mist be fixed. As for the button being hard to reach - they should just rearrange the buttons a bit. It's more important how to do it, than why it won't work.

Maaci
03-12-2017, 12:24 PM
If berseker would be an issue with the half and full block, it would most likely be an easy fix.
Just putting a passive button there for berserker only "every attack he do is blocked as if the opponent was in full block". If this doesnt work then iam pretty sure something else could be put in place.

Fixing character issues so they are fair, encourage back and forth play, unique and different, and also specialised in what they do should be rather easy to do.


Would be cool if assassins could instead of feinting instead changing where their attack is gonna be.


Moving an important, necessarily on-demand input like parrying to a harder-to-reach-in-timevbutton is *not* an appropriate solution; difficulty of input should never be a factor.
Just so i understand, what do you mean with this? I agree that difficulty shouldnt be a factor but putting parry on feint button, you think it makes it to hard to do a parry cuz u cant feint it?

GenLiu
03-12-2017, 12:50 PM
Moving an important, necessarily on-demand input like parrying to a harder-to-reach-in-timevbutton is *not* an appropriate solution; difficulty of input should never be a factor. And if your half/full guard proposal were to go through, then the Berserker would need an overhaul to its left/right combo chain. As it currently stands, heavies and lights in this chain look identical (as far as I can tell) and travel at the same speed. The stagger on block from these attacks is so great that it's extremely difficult to get a parry in (part of this may be due to my LB's guard switch speed). Without an overhaul, the Berserker could become an unstoppable force with your half/full block system.
I don't think it's that hard to fix, just make an exception for the Berserker's infinite strong attacks which could be blocked in half-guard like light attacks.
Other exception could be considered if necessary but it's just a matter of identifying attacks that would be too powerful with this system and make them work similarly to light attacks when haf/full-block is concerned.

Mr_Gallows
03-12-2017, 01:35 PM
I don't think it's that hard to fix, just make an exception for the Berserker's infinite strong attacks which could be blocked in half-guard like light attacks.
Other exception could be considered if necessary but it's just a matter of identifying attacks that would be too powerful with this system and make them work similarly to light attacks when haf/full-block is concerned.

Yes I agree. The point with this system is they would have a new tool to balance the game. Perhaps the berserkers heavy attacks would only do some chip damage against half block. The point is, that it isn't set in Stone and can be easily tweaked. Very slow attacks could have the property of only being blocked by full block.

The important thing is, they would have a great tool for balancing the damage, speed and ability to block in relation to all attacks.

Maaci
03-12-2017, 09:57 PM
Thats what i just said, i just had a misspelling of "button" instead of "passive"

Felis_Menari
03-12-2017, 11:22 PM
If berseker would be an issue with the half and full block, it would most likely be an easy fix.
Just putting a passive button there for berserker only "every attack he do is blocked as if the opponent was in full block". If this doesnt work then iam pretty sure something else could be put in place.

Fixing character issues so they are fair, encourage back and forth play, unique and different, and also specialised in what they do should be rather easy to do.


Would be cool if assassins could instead of feinting instead changing where their attack is gonna be.


Just so i understand, what do you mean with this? I agree that difficulty shouldnt be a factor but putting parry on feint button, you think it makes it to hard to do a parry cuz u cant feint it?

The parry function is fine where it is; there is no need for it to be moved. That's all there is to it.

Mr_Gallows
03-13-2017, 01:34 AM
The parry function is fine where it is; there is no need for it to be moved. That's all there is to it.

The need to move it arises from the fact that having it on the same button as heavy attack isn't good. It should be an easy to reach button. That all the lol there is to it 😂

But the main thing is revamping parry, so it does not stop the player to player interaktion. If instead parry made the next heavy quicker and had some other benefits, but allowed the opponent to defend, there could be some really quick exchanges mixed with parries in a constant back and forth Exchange. With slightly faster heavy attacks, light attacks, feints etc, someone will mess up and the defensive meta is pointless when parry no longer gives free damage. Parry stops the action where instead it should quickly switch initiative and speed up the action for a moment.

The reason for moving it to feint is that it could have a recovery period if you parry as feint (because no attack connects).

Anyway, moving it to feint isn't the biggest issue - it would just add a bit more for the developers to work with in terms of balance. The quick chat, could be switched around with the feint button for a more easy to reach button. Also not having it on heavy attack would remove those few lucky parries from the game.

Felis_Menari
03-13-2017, 04:15 AM
Lucky parries? What? I am not sure what you mean by that. If anything, I've had unlucky parry attempts (timing seemed right, but I got hit anyways). Parrying at best can be assigned to (on a controller) to left/right thumbstick presses, left/right bumpers, and left/right triggers. Anything else decreases the ease of play. What you are proposing is to intentionally make an input more difficult (which is bonkers, IMO), since it would take slightly longer to hit on the B/Circle button as opposed to the trigger your finger naturally rests upon while playing. The other proposals would already do much to put cracks in the turtle meta. Add tighter parry timing on heavies (lights are a big maybe, in my mind. Some of the faster characters are already difficult enough to deal with as is), and that may very well be enough to balance out offense and defense.

Maaci
03-13-2017, 04:48 AM
I think he mean lucky parries as in you are about to do a heavy attack to your opponent but oopsy, you just appaerantly parried one attack when that wasnt your intention one bit.

Felis_Menari
03-13-2017, 05:00 AM
I think he mean lucky parries as in you are about to do a heavy attack to your opponent but oopsy, you just appaerantly parried one attack when that wasnt your intention one bit.

I've never had that happen o.O

Cyb3rR4ptor
03-13-2017, 06:15 AM
IDK if you guys saw the first warrior's den video the devs made. One thing they mentioned was that GB after a parry was not intentional. They plan on doing a fix on that.

Now on the topic.
I believe there are 2 ways to tackle the issue. One track is by changing some of the games general mechanics and the other doing proper buff/nerfs on the cast.
On the general sense something they could do is decrease the the stun time of the parry, Making it that you can land a light attack but not a heavy, or a GB. (already mentioned this was not intentional)
-On characters that have an ALL BLOCK, these characters can't CG, or CGB while doing an ALL BLOCK. And that's their crack on their defense. They would be forced to leave said state in order to react properly. And when I say "leave said state" i mean properly leave the all block not just let go and react. it should have some sort of delay.
-Make the guard stance change speed of all characters the same. This way characters with high attack speed keep their advantage but still players with good reaction can manage.

I prefer buffs over nerfs but way i see it, buffing the rest of the cast could be a lot more risky than nerfing the "TOP TIERS" and it involves a lot more work. But it could be done.

The only characters that can adequately compete against the HYPER DEFENSE meta are warden and PK, since these characters are basically have the best tool set to dealing with hyper defense characters (outside of themselves). The rest have a hard time against shield users since they can only attack and gb. They could go for the feints but feints do not guarantee a reaction from the opponent. Sure they all have unblockables or uninterruptibles but they are easier to react or don't have much damage to capitalize like the "TOP TIERS"
An easy fix on warden is to remove the ability to GB from shoulder bash. That way he's commited to the move just like Raider's grab, Valk's shield bash, Nob's kicks. or grant them the ability to cancel those to GB as well. Evening the grounds.
I already mentioned what to do against characters with an ALL BLOCK

I have only played with Nobushi and Valk since those are my faves. And I'd say they do relatively well against all classes except Warlord and Conq. Maybe Valk has more chance than Nob due to her bash and sweep but those are slow and easy to react.

naisuguydesu
03-13-2017, 10:17 AM
Wow I just went trough the whole thread to see if Ubi answered... they didn't even bother to !

It looks like they really don't want to say anything on that matter. That is the biggest flaw of the game and I am soon going to leave it if nothing is done to change it, just like many players I believe...

Pity, I love this game. :(

Mr_Gallows
03-13-2017, 01:15 PM
In situations where you press heavy attack as someone uses a light attack you can get a lucky parry. It has happened a lot, especially in xv1 where I often get unintentional parries.

But even so, keeping parry on the heavy attack button isn't the biggest concern really.

Making parry something that does not cause a break in the action, but rather speeds it up right after a parry is what we need. That can work just fine with parry on the heavy attack.

Mr_Gallows
03-13-2017, 01:21 PM
Wow I just went trough the whole thread to see if Ubi answered... they didn't even bother to !

It looks like they really don't want to say anything on that matter. That is the biggest flaw of the game and I am soon going to leave it if nothing is done to change it, just like many players I believe...

Pity, I love this game. :(

I think you should just expect a slower response. It's a big company and I do believe they read the forums. This game is a bit complex, and takes time to fine tune. I do believe they intend to make the game the best it can be, I just hope their approach to this goal is good ;)

GregoryMcFlint
03-13-2017, 02:51 PM
Wow I just went trough the whole thread to see if Ubi answered... they didn't even bother to !

It looks like they really don't want to say anything on that matter. That is the biggest flaw of the game and I am soon going to leave it if nothing is done to change it, just like many players I believe...

Pity, I love this game. :(

2003soft strikes again!

Mr_Gallows
03-13-2017, 03:24 PM
Just a repost of a more organized writeup of my ideas:

Attacking is risky mainly because of what parry gives the defender and defending is safe because it is risk free and offers great reward.

If parry was reworked in the following way, parry would still be good, but not offer free damage and not make attacking so risky.

Parry
First there are some changes and effects for the person being parried (attacker)
1. No stagger after parry, so the person being parried can defend himself from attacks and GB
2. After being parried you cannot dodge backwards or you will fall down.
3. Stamina drain like now
4. attacking and GB disabled for a moment after being parried, so the only option is defence (including CGB)

Then there are some effects for the one doing the parry (defender)
1. The next heavy attack is faster (maybe even the next combo starting with a heavy attack coult be faster and perhaps this heavy attack could chain directly into any combo chain).
2. The next heavy attacks could have increased chip damage, but don't know if this one is needed.
3. The next heavy attack costs no stamina.
4. The next heavy attack may inflict stun if it connects,
5. No options for light attacks, I know, but heavy attacks could get a bit of love through parry.
6. Several options for rewarding parry without, disabling the other person.

With this parry system in place, we could see some quick exchanges of parry back and forth, that would keep the combat going with no pause after a parry, but instead a feeling of urgency as parries speed up the action and change timings instead of breaking up the action.


Blocking
That leaves us with the more basic part of defence - blocking.

We have two tiers of attacks - light and heavy.
To match that two tiers of block would work very well - half and full block.

Half block
Getting to half block happends instantly when you switch guard. Half block allows you to completely block light attacks. From half block you can only parry heavy attacks. Heavy attacks hitting half block may do full or reduced damage. that's balancing.

Full block
as soon as you enter half block, the direction meter begins to fill up and after a number of frames it is full and you are in full block. When in full block you can block heavy attacks. The number of frames it takes to reach full block can vary from character to character, to give more balance options. The quick characters who are good at dodging may need a few more frames to reach full block.

For this to work, heavy attacks must be balanced in terms of speed across the board. they don't have to be the same, but must land within an acceptable range for balance to feel right.


A different approach to half and full block
Each attack in the game could also be given an attack powe, balanced with the speed of the attack. When blocking characters would build up block power over the frames after entering full block. When an attack and a block collides, the block power and the attack power is compared to calculate damage. My suggestion is that there is a cut off point, so if you don't have at least half the block power relative to the attack power, the attack does full damage. After that damage is gradually reduced, until half damage. If you match the attack power, the attack will do no damage at all. Sounds complicated, but really is a simple principle. :) Just a second idea for how to approach blocking, that doesn't have to change the characters.

naisuguydesu
03-13-2017, 05:56 PM
I think you should just expect a slower response. It's a big company and I do believe they read the forums. This game is a bit complex, and takes time to fine tune. I do believe they intend to make the game the best it can be, I just hope their approach to this goal is good ;)

The turtle meta lasts for more than a month now!
I think they had plenty of time to think about that problem that is killing the game.

I'm just asking for a reaction, a word from the devs. Just to know if they even consider changing anything.

It can't stay as it is right now, and it's just going to get worst.

Soon all the fights will just be 2 Wardens facing each others for days without doing anything...

Mr_Gallows
03-13-2017, 06:27 PM
The turtle meta lasts for more than a month now!
I think they had plenty of time to think about that problem that is killing the game.

I'm just asking for a reaction, a word from the devs. Just to know if they even consider changing anything.

It can't stay as it is right now, and it's just going to get worst.

Soon all the fights will just be 2 Wardens facing each others for days without doing anything...

They reacted last week by mentioning that they did not intend defence to be this strong. Watch their livestream tomorrow - more details may pop up during the show.

Xanthus730
03-13-2017, 11:55 PM
Yes, there's been 2 livestreams and a dev interview on another site, where this was mentioned in pretty much each one. They've mentioned that they are aware of the problem and working on fixing it. They've also addressed several other of the community's favorite concerns, as well. I believe the streams are even linked in the announcements subforum.

Pariah695
03-14-2017, 12:21 AM
The turtle meta lasts for more than a month now!
I think they had plenty of time to think about that problem that is killing the game.

I'm just asking for a reaction, a word from the devs. Just to know if they even consider changing anything.

It can't stay as it is right now, and it's just going to get worst.

Soon all the fights will just be 2 Wardens facing each others for days without doing anything...

The turtle meta has been around for much more than a month. In the first alpha version of the game several months ago, this problem still existed. And even back then there were people on the forums saying that defense was too strong. And Ubi has done nothing.

Honestly, after hearing Ubisoft saying how they didn't expect defense to be this strong and things like how feinting parries and berserker lights being punishable with GB on block were all unintended, it really makes me think that the designers of this game had no idea what they were doing. Clearly things like frame data they weren't even considering.

The long silence from Ubi not fixing anything means one of two things to me. Either they don't care and have no actual interest in fixing the game, which makes sense because it's Ubisoft and they only care about mass market casual appeal, of which the game is great for as is. Or they're really taking the time to learn how to design and balance a competitive fighting game.

Or I suppose they're trying to wrap their heads around the problems they barely understand, and throwing a bunch of ineffectual fixes at it, such as increasing chip damage, and remaining just as clueless as to what they're doing. I don't mean to sound rude, but it's shocking to me that no one on their QA team was good enough to see these problems and bring them up to the devs during development. It really feels like a bunch of casual gamers who have no understanding of the incredible amount of depth a typical fighting game has.

Varicose_Veins
03-14-2017, 01:24 AM
The turtle meta has been around for much more than a month. In the first alpha version of the game several months ago, this problem still existed. And even back then there were people on the forums saying that defense was too strong. And Ubi has done nothing.

Honestly, after hearing Ubisoft saying how they didn't expect defense to be this strong and things like how feinting parries and berserker lights being punishable with GB on block were all unintended, it really makes me think that the designers of this game had no idea what they were doing. Clearly things like frame data they weren't even considering.

The long silence from Ubi not fixing anything means one of two things to me. Either they don't care and have no actual interest in fixing the game, which makes sense because it's Ubisoft and they only care about mass market casual appeal, of which the game is great for as is. Or they're really taking the time to learn how to design and balance a competitive fighting game.

Or I suppose they're trying to wrap their heads around the problems they barely understand, and throwing a bunch of ineffectual fixes at it, such as increasing chip damage, and remaining just as clueless as to what they're doing. I don't mean to sound rude, but it's shocking to me that no one on their QA team was good enough to see these problems and bring them up to the devs during development. It really feels like a bunch of casual gamers who have no understanding of the incredible amount of depth a typical fighting game has.

All this and...

it will be telling in the next Warrior's Den broadcast if this issue is discussed.

So far Ubi have barely mentioned it. My gut feel is they don't get the depth and magnitude of this problem.

Seems like Roman is the key guy at Ubi when it comes to the fighting paradigm. I'll be watching tomorrow to see what he says. Up to now he's only talked about character match-up data, bug fixes and tiny tweaks.

Xanthus730
03-14-2017, 01:46 AM
The turtle meta has been around for much more than a month. In the first alpha version of the game several months ago, this problem still existed. And even back then there were people on the forums saying that defense was too strong. And Ubi has done nothing.

Honestly, after hearing Ubisoft saying how they didn't expect defense to be this strong and things like how feinting parries and berserker lights being punishable with GB on block were all unintended, it really makes me think that the designers of this game had no idea what they were doing. Clearly things like frame data they weren't even considering.

The long silence from Ubi not fixing anything means one of two things to me. Either they don't care and have no actual interest in fixing the game, which makes sense because it's Ubisoft and they only care about mass market casual appeal, of which the game is great for as is. Or they're really taking the time to learn how to design and balance a competitive fighting game.

Or I suppose they're trying to wrap their heads around the problems they barely understand, and throwing a bunch of ineffectual fixes at it, such as increasing chip damage, and remaining just as clueless as to what they're doing. I don't mean to sound rude, but it's shocking to me that no one on their QA team was good enough to see these problems and bring them up to the devs during development. It really feels like a bunch of casual gamers who have no understanding of the incredible amount of depth a typical fighting game has.

For Honor isn't framerate-locked and moves/sim-speed/physics aren't tied to framerate. Hence: there is no such thing as frame data in For Honor. Moves and everything else is done in milliseconds. Though, this is mainly a pedantic argument.
They haven't been silent.

That is all.

Pariah695
03-14-2017, 09:44 AM
They have been silent, for months. Ever since the first publicly playable alpha build people, including myself, have been talking about these issues on the forums. All the way up until launch they never said a word, never acknowledged anything people were saying, and didn't fix very much at all. Only post release did they realize how strong defense was, claiming they had no way of knowing that was the case because during the tests players only had a few days to play and didn't have the time to reach the level for that to crop up. Despite several people talking about these issues over 6 months ago after only about 4 days to play.

Mr_Gallows
03-14-2017, 10:18 AM
They have been silent, for months. Ever since the first publicly playable alpha build people, including myself, have been talking about these issues on the forums. All the way up until launch they never said a word, never acknowledged anything people were saying, and didn't fix very much at all. Only post release did they realize how strong defense was, claiming they had no way of knowing that was the case because during the tests players only had a few days to play and didn't have the time to reach the level for that to crop up. Despite several people talking about these issues over 6 months ago after only about 4 days to play.

That's just wrong. They have NOT been silent for month. Every tuesday, there is a twitch stream of three hours where they discuss the game. Today is the third show. Last week they mentioned the defensive meta and admitted that defence was too strong.

Maaci
03-14-2017, 10:31 AM
He said for months, not month. And three weeks of talk from their side and they havent given us any concrete answers whatsoever.

Felis_Menari
03-14-2017, 10:40 AM
He said for months, not month. And three weeks of talk from their side and they havent given us any concrete answers whatsoever.

It's starting to look like we should play other games until For Honor gets fixed up. ME: Andromeda is only a week away; if FH is still borked by then, I may end up giving it a break for a month or two before giving it another go.

Mr_Gallows
03-14-2017, 11:16 AM
He said for months, not month. And three weeks of talk from their side and they havent given us any concrete answers whatsoever.

I doubt they have any answers yet. I am sure they don't want to release their raw design ideas for a future patch. If you watch the show there are actually answers... just not to the question of defence. But watch today and if they don't mention it - just keep asking ;)

Pariah695
03-14-2017, 03:10 PM
I totally get them not wanting to spill the beans on the exact things they're working on, but something a little more than, "We're looking into it" would be immensely appreciated. I'd like to at least know they actually understand what the problems are so they can properly approach fixing them. I can't give them the benefit of the doubt that they actually get it when they released the game in the state they did.

It's frustrating that these problems have been around for as long as they have, and only now they're being addressed. I was so hyped for this game, as I'm sure many of us were. And then you get your hands on it and it feels great and it's a blast. But after not too long you start to see the problems. Eventually you reach a level where the problems become all the game is, and it becomes utterly miserable to play.

I completely dropped the game after less than a week. I still love what the game is, or what it wants to be at least, but I can't bring myself to have fun playing it. This is the only fighting game I've ever played where fighting someone at the same skill level as you is not the most intense and fun experience you can have. That's where the impatience to hear when fixes will be comes from. I want to be able to love For Honor. Not knowing when or IF that will be possible is quite vexing.

Maaci
03-14-2017, 03:19 PM
Didnt watch it but from your post i seem to not have missed much. I tried to watch this show another week ago and i didnt like the approach they did, felt slow paced and a little bit all over the place with random talk about random stuff and then one guy from ubisoft was harder to understand as well.

Anyway, YE, they should atleast mention WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE and not some generic crap such as "defence is to strong", that can literally mean a ton of things. This feels like typical PR-talk and my experience with that is that the game will never be fixed, EVER! Thats my experience with that kind of pr-talk.