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View Full Version : Heavy vs. Agile characters.



MG.Mura
02-10-2017, 07:22 PM
So just a question, and maybe I'm missing something, but playing Raider and versing a Nobushi (due to range and poison), or a Peacekeeper (bleeds and in/out agility), I feel like I'm unable to counter their play, assuming*** they're actually decent. Hell, even the non-decent Peacekeeper player can just spam light attacks on me until they're out of stamina, then back up and be out of range, and then come back in a few seconds later (assuming they have stam regen). The issue I have with it, is that I don't feel, again, unless I'm missing something, that I have a counter to it. I have tried guard breaking, gap closing with the tap attack, pretty much every attack or grab/throw that I can think of, and nothing seems to work against a decent one. I figured first that fast attacks would be the way to go since heavy's are easily avoidable by them, but even light attacks seem to be able to be riposted or just interrupted if they attack as they see me attacking, again, spamming lights into me.

So if I'm missing something I'd love to know, open to feedback here and suggestions, as I've tried all I can think of. I'm not complaining or asking for change by the way, merely seeking to improve. Also, if there is no true counter play for these slower characters in these situations (not all slow characters mind you), that's fine with me, I am willing to accept that that's just a weakness of the class I am playing, as every class does and should have a weakness. Anyway, thanks! :)

SF_JHawk373
02-10-2017, 07:30 PM
Find patterns in your opponents attack and switch up your style. Against a skilled duelist you need to employ feints and exploit their defence/attack pattern.

For example, if you notice a PK like to lunge in and follow up with the grab and stab then you can either parry the lunge and punish with a light combo or block and counter the grab. The Warlord's light attacks are deceivingly quick and have a surprising range. You can even feint a side heavy into your lunging stun and follow up with a light combo.

It's always a chess game with a good duelist so for that you need to employ all the mechanics of your character and switch up tactics.

MG.Mura
02-10-2017, 07:36 PM
Appreciate the suggestions. I'm more curious about the class match up if both played perfectly. So, hitting every block/riposte/dodge, etc. I guess I should have been clear about it, but I'm more curious about the class vs. class timing windows and if for example I swing with a light attack and they dodge to the side, will they, with they're speed, be able to get a light attack off in the time it takes for my animation to finish, or will I be able to block said light attack. I realize positioning and the whole chess game and figuring out your opponent comes into it, but I'm wondering about the actual class limitations themselves in a perfect player vs perfect player match up.

Lord_Binz
02-10-2017, 08:13 PM
I generally play Vanguards or Heavies, and while there have been some really good PKs, Orochis and Nobs who have thoroughly thrashed me, they have to land a bunch of attacks to win the fight.

I normally only need to land 1 or 2. Like a fighting game where the enemy can block and counter really well, you need to force them to make a mistake. Simple tricks like sprinting away before turning suddenly with a dash attack into GB into double light works wonders on my Warden, and can easily 50-75% damage them. If you are trying to fight someone on the same or greater skill level than you in a fair fight when they have faster attacks than you, you are setting yourself up for failure. They are more agile, and have poke attacks whereas you dont, but its like the Mountain vs the Viper.

You only need to grab on to them once.

Brave_Thunder
02-10-2017, 08:51 PM
I have the opposite problem:i can fight against other agile heroes as Pk but as soon as I fight a raider/conqueror I get destroyed.The only thing a Pk can do to get in range is a jump heavy attack,but then the raider has his ability to throw you on the ground/wall and finish you,while the conqueror can simply shield bash and stun lock you to death.Maybe orochi is a better choice against heavies,but I love too much Pk to let her down after just 8 hours.

ThePrincePipi
02-10-2017, 09:28 PM
The thing is that in a heavily reflex-reliant combat system, fast characters will always have a certain advantage. I can't count the number of times I'v been stunlock not being able to retaliate because all my animations where too slow with the heavy class. Sometimes you can't let's say guardbreak a quick character because he has infinite super-armor in his fast combo. You parry the guy, you swing, too bad he's fast enough do dodge everything you throw at him. I fought a noboshi with a conqueror and it was hell, I could only charge my heavy and swing after I block her because everything else was useless against her. Then she learned to guardbreak me and for whatever reason I could never counter guardbreak her. You feel so hopeless in these situation, no wonder 90% of the population are assassins.

Darkrynblade
02-10-2017, 11:02 PM
The thing is that in a heavily reflex-reliant combat system, fast characters will always have a certain advantage. I can't count the number of times I'v been stunlock not being able to retaliate because all my animations where too slow with the heavy class. Sometimes you can't let's say guardbreak a quick character because he has infinite super-armor in his fast combo. You parry the guy, you swing, too bad he's fast enough do dodge everything you throw at him. I fought a noboshi with a conqueror and it was hell, I could only charge my heavy and swing after I block her because everything else was useless against her. Then she learned to guardbreak me and for whatever reason I could never counter guardbreak her. You feel so hopeless in these situation, no wonder 90% of the population are assassins.

I have to agree. It's obvious that assassins hold the edge when it comes to any higher level play. Unless the class you are playing has a multitude of feints and other tricks to get around the assassin's ability to out counter and out defend you, you are utterly helpless. Take for instance the raider, who is completely outmatched by any orochi. You could argue that since the raider deals such heavy damage with his heavy swings, it is balanced, but at higher play it is essentially a useless commodity. I've found the Raiders only chance is the pommel strike stun, but even then it has a specific start up (dodging) and only a single direction it attacks from. It is pretty much so easy to see coming, it isn't worth the advantage of blinding them, since all it does is give them something they can reliably parry/deflect/dodge. With each game, the prospect of playing this game further is less and less appealing.

TheBabyGrinder
02-11-2017, 12:43 AM
Im just being eaten alive this beta as berserker, especially from heavies! I feel like they actually nerfed assassins. Which, to be honest, were super OP. But spamming guard breaks has been shutting my as out pretty good.

TheBabyGrinder
02-11-2017, 12:44 AM
I have to agree. It's obvious that assassins hold the edge when it comes to any higher level play. Unless the class you are playing has a multitude of feints and other tricks to get around the assassin's ability to out counter and out defend you, you are utterly helpless. Take for instance the raider, who is completely outmatched by any orochi. You could argue that since the raider deals such heavy damage with his heavy swings, it is balanced, but at higher play it is essentially a useless commodity. I've found the Raiders only chance is the pommel strike stun, but even then it has a specific start up (dodging) and only a single direction it attacks from. It is pretty much so easy to see coming, it isn't worth the advantage of blinding them, since all it does is give them something they can reliably parry/deflect/dodge. With each game, the prospect of playing this game further is less and less appealing.

Skill will overcome any class based weaknesses.