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View Full Version : Does Warden really need lightning speed zone attack and top light?



The_Wall_
02-10-2017, 06:17 PM
Edit: At the point of writing this post i had not properly tested the -frames and interactions that the warden zone attacks have with block. I have now confirmed a blocked zone attack is punishable with un-techable guardbreak on block, so read the post with that in mind.


At the moment at high level all you see is Wardens alternating between zone and top light because it is so hard to punish in a real game.

Warden is easily the best character by far, and anyone who played against good wardens know why.


He got no weakness what so ever, unless you count an average throw range a big weakness.
The character is overloaded with juicy tools and attacks:
- Deadly charge combos that can be mixed with breaks or zone(and make amazing 50/50's with cancel into break or continue the stun)
- Great feint play opportunities
- Crush counter top light, which makes anyone vary of doing long range poke or leaps. (which many characters kinda depend on for mix-ups, espes Kensei and Nobushi)
- Warden is s able to finish of any last 1 pip/bar of health with a guard break, charge or straight light attack due to heavy side on guard break possible or the light combo with double light attacks. Many characters can do this, but taken into account all the other tools, it is simply just overwhelming when even Berserker cant.


And the thing that makes warden a tier above the rest for sure is:
- 2 super fast frame attacks, most famously Warden zone attack as a mix-up surprise attack, cant catch even good players off-guard, especially when feinted, and super hard to parry in a real game
The zone attack alone is so hilariously stronger than any other zone attack in the game, than any attack in the game for that matter. Great range, sweeps pretty much the area in front of you and is so fast that it is neigh impossible to consistently parry on reaction in a real fight.
Thus it is safe, effective at taking around half a pip and scaring the hell out of your opponent. This is one of the attacks that differ wardens from the other classes simply because the Warden simply forces you to attack him, lest you be slowly chipped down by mixed up zone attacks with top light or feints.
The top light is the final nail in the coffin. Not only does it have an instant crush counter effect that cripples most classes while being an effective deterrent overall, it is also lightning fast and when used in combination with zone attack by alternating between them, you make the opponent never feel safe just blocking. Mix it with feint guard break, charges, feint heavy into light top/zone and you got a recipe for real mayhem.
Yes, parrying light top and zone attacks are possible, yes it is possible for another warden on reaction to crush the top and parry the light. But mother of god, if you can do this consistently, then you are perhaps of the best players in existence.


A few more frames to his zone attack would work wonders, not much, just make it barely parryable on reaction like almost any other attack out there. The top light... i dont know, maybe they can keep it or only a tiny nerf. The warden have good tools, and shouldnt need to rely on cheesing with fast frames to avoid most punishment,.

Viking_44_
02-10-2017, 06:20 PM
The samurai has extremely fast attacks, i could take a peace keeper or raider or samurai and beat a warden easy as pie, however i played the warden the last few hours of the closed bet and grew very fond of him. If you took away his fast light attack he would be useless because his heavies are so slow.

The_Wall_
02-10-2017, 06:38 PM
Kensei only got one fast attack and that is the helm splitter, which is an overhead, and when a warden knows that, and got the reactions you are gonna get wasted faster than you can cry "YAMEROOO"

At really high level you cant just go raider and peace keeper and "beat a warden as pie" At equal high skill a Warden easily takes the gold. Peace keeper is pretty much a joke because she lacks the mix-up tools, and while kensei does have nice comboes, he aint gonna get to use them unless he can parry zones and light top mix-ups on feints on reaction. Good luck doing that, mean while all he has to do is block top from midrange, and fish with his fast frames or wait for you to attack and counter.

Just because his heavies are slow doesnt mean he would be useless. He still got crush, he still got 50/50 charge, and the top light would still be fast.

Idd like to ask you exactly how a peacekeeper and raider beats a warden in open terrain, explain me the process and the moves.

ThisHermitGuy
02-10-2017, 06:39 PM
This Crushing counter attack only works if you time it just right, otherwise the warden will get donked in the head.

The_Wall_
02-10-2017, 06:42 PM
We are assuming The Warden and his opponent is very skilled for the sake of discussion. This means uncancelable top attacks (which most pokes attacks are) will more than likely get punished.

But it also means the other player wont even use those attacks, because Warden renders those tools useless unless he is somehow caught offguard because you never used it.

emmdeekizzlar
02-10-2017, 07:11 PM
The shoulder block cancel into guard break seems too much? Crazy 50/50 which leads to really big damage and another mix up? None of the other similar moves (Conq shield bash, Warlord headbutt, Nobushi kick) can be cancelled and are still really powerful tools in their kits, the Warden shoulder bash just feels god tier atm but there's always a chanceI I'm missing something this early into any game.

The_Wall_
02-10-2017, 07:11 PM
Sounds like you got smashed in a game against a good warden and are taking your frustration out on the forums. It's okay, we still love you and look forward to killing you again.

Signed,
Every Warden ever.

Not sure why you would assume that. I play all characters, and i spar against a lot of different people to come to the conclusions i do in private 1v1's to test the edges of For Honor. How about you attack my statements with logic and facts instead of pure guesswork ?

ThePollie
02-10-2017, 07:35 PM
Considering the rest of his kit is pretty lame, yeah. I'd say this is a good thing.

Lord_Binz
02-10-2017, 08:03 PM
Sounds like you got smashed in a game against a good warden and are taking your frustration out on the forums. It's okay, we still love you and look forward to killing you again.

Signed,
Every Warden ever.

Hahahahaha this, so this.

Yggdrasil_67
02-10-2017, 08:27 PM
You keep saying the Warden has a lot of tools but they have the least tool of all the classes in the game.
-shoulder bash
-top counter
that's it. anything else you mention isn't exclusive to them.


The character is overloaded with juicy tools and attacks:
1 - Deadly charge combos that can be mixed with breaks or zone(and make amazing 50/50's with cancel into break or continue the stun)
2 - Great feint play opportunities
3 - Crush counter top light, which makes anyone vary of doing long range poke or leaps. (which many characters kinda depend on for mix-ups, espes Kensei and Nobushi)
4 - Warden is s able to finish of any last 1 pip/bar of health with a guard break, charge or straight light attack due to heavy side on guard break possible or the light combo with double light attacks. Many characters can do this, but taken into account all the other tools, it is simply just overwhelming when even Berserker cant.
5 - 2 super fast frame attacks, most famously Warden zone attack as a mix-up surprise attack, cant catch even good players off-guard, especially when feinted, and super hard to parry in a real game
6 - The top light is the final nail in the coffin. Not only does it have an instant crush counter effect that cripples most classes while being an effective deterrent overall, it is also lightning fast and when used in combination with zone attack by alternating between them, you make the opponent never feel safe just blocking. Mix it with feint guard break, charges, feint heavy into light top/zone and you got a recipe for real mayhem..
1) I was gonna say "dude just side dodge the shoulder charge LMAO" but the GB cancel is so good I can't argue with that.
2) Just like every other classes
3) Meanwhile assassin classes can do that in all three directions. Can easily be avoided by not doing a top heavy attack or doing a light attack when they are already blocking high.
4) Well like you said, many characters can do this. I'd expect any class to be able to finish off an opponent. Meanwhile the Orochi gets a free TOP HEAVY attack from a guard break.
5) Litterally Dude just block left LMAO. If they feint into it they are left with almost no stamina and can't start pressuring from it, meaning what little damage it deals isn't worth it. It's time to dash forward and grab them to deplete what's left of their stamina or start your own pressure, because they sure as hell are going to back off after pulling this off.
6)it's his fastest light but isn't it still as fast as other vanguard fast lght attacks? That used to be the one with the most tracking so you would use it fter a throw or parry instead of the double side attack comboin into shoulder bash mixup. Other than that, what I said in 3)

I can agree with a few more startup frame for the zone attack, though. But like I said, it's really not as good as it looks.

ThePollie
02-10-2017, 11:21 PM
Well, his lackluster kit has to have something to it.

Take away much more and he's literally nothing but the barebones combat system itself.

Stankyfoot
02-11-2017, 12:18 AM
Every class has been called OP. That means that, until more testing is done, none are.

Pariah695
02-11-2017, 12:33 AM
As a Warden main, I have to agree somewhat. In a game where nearly every single attack, including guard breaks, is reactable, the Wardens zone attack being one of the few uncreactable moves makes it one of the best in the game. Not to mention it's fantastic range, push back on block, and that it's safe on block like all attacks. I don't have a problem with the top light, I think that's fine. But the fact that the shoulder tackles is cancelable makes it probably the greatest tool in the game as it is one of the only true mix-up opportunities in the game.

Here's the problem, normally I'd be inclined to agree that these tools make Warden an extremely powerful character compared to others. But as For Honor is right now, it doesn't really matter. The game is broken at high level. When you get good enough, you can parry nearly any attack, you can feint your parry attempts to make them safe if the attacker tries to feint for a mix-up, and react to every single guard break that comes your way. At that point, you're an iron wall of indestructible defense. Even the Warden's zone attack becomes largely useless because it always comes from the same side, just hold your guard left, and only move it on reaction to attacks. At high level play, the only thing that can break through defense is something like Warden's shoulder bash cancel mix-ups.

I think before we can properly start discussing character balance, Ubisoft needs to fix how overwhelmingly powerful defense is.

AveImperator85
02-11-2017, 04:24 AM
You're aware that the Warden has NOTHING else in his kit, right?

The_Wall_
02-11-2017, 07:34 AM
You're aware that the Warden has NOTHING else in his kit, right?

Yeah, because i listed his tools, so that kinda gives itself. Also it is not just the number of tools that makes a character great. Having 5 good tools is better than 7 mediocre tools the enemy can easily react to.


Wardens 2 fast frames attacks are so fast they that only a few players can actually consistently counter-parry and crush it. But lets not just talk about the class in a vacuum, since the relative strength is what is most important. I can confidently say every other class is miles easier to defend against, yes, even warlord is much easier to defend against because he relies on counterplay to get most out of his kit. Warden does not need that, can play both styles equally well and have much scarier frames. If you just dueled a decent Warden for hours, you will feel the other classes move in slow-motion until you get used to them again.

So your fear is that, if the zone attack gets a tiny bit slower, the whole class falls part right? But doesn't that actually mean you put his zone attack in such high regard, that you cant see the class work without such a powerful weapon? Maybe that is food for thought, because there are no other class that even remotely relies on his zone attack so much as Warden. There are honorable mentions, but nothing close to it. Should a character really need to rely so much on the zone? Well, maybe it is not wrong to design a class that does so, i mean you know where he can hit it, and he cant cancel it, so that is fair. But as i have stated out, the combination of his other fast frames make it stronger.

When a warden runs toward you, where do you block? Zone attack? Light top? His charge attack? He can instantly enter guard and zone attack instead of charge attack, or he can just do the charge, one of the only good counters here is reading the opponent is gonna do something, but unless you wanna get side-step bash locked you might only get a light in.

Sure, you can block and dodge every attack in the game, but i feel like Warden have the advantage in 1v1 matchups overall because of the reasons stated. Are Wardens impossible to beat? Hell no, of course you can beat a Warden, everyone makes mistakes. But at equal high skill, i would say the Warden probably wins 2/3.

The_Wall_
02-11-2017, 07:44 AM
As a Warden main, I have to agree somewhat. In a game where nearly every single attack, including guard breaks, is reactable, the Wardens zone attack being one of the few uncreactable moves makes it one of the best in the game. Not to mention it's fantastic range, push back on block, and that it's safe on block like all attacks. I don't have a problem with the top light, I think that's fine. But the fact that the shoulder tackles is cancelable makes it probably the greatest tool in the game as it is one of the only true mix-up opportunities in the game.

Here's the problem, normally I'd be inclined to agree that these tools make Warden an extremely powerful character compared to others. But as For Honor is right now, it doesn't really matter. The game is broken at high level. When you get good enough, you can parry nearly any attack, you can feint your parry attempts to make them safe if the attacker tries to feint for a mix-up, and react to every single guard break that comes your way. At that point, you're an iron wall of indestructible defense. Even the Warden's zone attack becomes largely useless because it always comes from the same side, just hold your guard left, and only move it on reaction to attacks. At high level play, the only thing that can break through defense is something like Warden's shoulder bash cancel mix-ups.

I think before we can properly start discussing character balance, Ubisoft needs to fix how overwhelmingly powerful defense is.

Very well put. I actually dreamed about how a fighting' ish game would be if everything could be reacted to. No more 50/50 tech throw chances, no more unreactables or unblockable setup comboes, everything should be able to be countered with reaction, a game of pure skill.

But it shows one big problem: When players are so good at reacting to things in the game, that they cannot get hit if they choose not to, what then? What if they just defend all game for fun?
I tested it a few times, just go in, and block for the about 5 minutes, and it works most of the times, even against decent players.

The damage people take at higher up is mostly because they read wrong when trying to make an attack and then get punished, or because of trades. If they didn't want to get hit, they probably wouldn't for the way most cases.
But if they introduce unreactables or 50/50 tech guard breaks people would be infuriated too. So is the solution to have insanely fast frames like Wardens in mix-ups? I actually wondered if Warden was maybe the only balanced character, and all the other characters are just not fast enough, so that good players will have a tough time to block attacks in high level.

That would be a slaughter for low/medium duels though. But it is an interesting thought nonetheless. The only thing that stands clear, is that Warden is in another tier in itself. Either the other classes need frame uppings, or you slow down Warden to make the game a bit slower but equal.

There is of course another solution you hinted at. Perhaps slow down Warden, but in return nerf over-all defense in a fair way.

E-A-X
02-11-2017, 08:12 AM
I mained warden since closed beta and im still doing it, to be fair the only tools you got are light attacks, shoulderbash, guardbreak and zone attack.

So if you always guard your left youll be fine against zone attack, still though that zone could use a nerf in range i feel. the top light attacks are actually easier to guard based on reactions while zone attack is not - can also parry quite easily just based on game sound when that top light comes your way - means you do not even need to look at the icon, just take your good reactions and straight up parry it.

TL;DR Basicly just guard your left and mostly only have to switch to the top when the sound comes in - a rotation between left and top guard also works brilliant i feel.

If you have a faster class with a quick zone attack you can just use that one aswell when you see/hear the shoulderbash coming in, this completly negates every cancel.

AveImperator85
02-11-2017, 09:25 AM
Wall, I was talking to people complaining about Warden's shoulder bash mixup. Pound for pound, Warden is in a bad place compared to other heroes. You need to be much more skilled than your opponent to perform on the same level. Sure, good players are going to wreck face with the Warden, but they could do even better with other heroes.

The Warden suffers from what I call First Born Syndrome in game design. It's very clear that the Warden was the first hero the devs created and as time went on and new heroes were made, they kept adding new and better toolkits to them. Only problem is, it seems they forgot about the Warden, so now he's largely outclassed by everyone else and their nice quality-of-life kits and perks. The Warden isn't bad, he's just...kinda left behind. They need to go back and do some touch-ups to bring him up to speed.

The_Wall_
02-11-2017, 10:02 AM
Bring Warden up to speed? Nevermind clever reverse troll post.

AveImperator85
02-11-2017, 10:06 AM
Bring Warden up to speed? Nevermind clever reverse troll post.

So....you hone in on ONE thing that I said, criticize and dismiss it...and I'M the troll? Ok

The_Wall_
02-11-2017, 10:08 AM
Ohh you were serious. I thought you were actually making indirect fun by saying warden lacked speed when he got the fastest attacks in the game.

Also if you read my post you would know he got plenty of tools, and not just tools, they got great synergy with each other. I can expand on that a little later if you want clarification.

AveImperator85
02-11-2017, 10:30 AM
Fastest attacks in the game? Um...sorry, no. Having played Orochi, Kensei, Noobucheese and Cheesekeeper, I can safely say all of the above have much, MUCH faster attacks with far more reliable gap closers, which grants them better utility. I especially had an easier time closing the gap with the Kensei, as he has THREE different possible dash attacks to help him get in close, all of which require different defenses and all of which are very fast. The Orochi has the same two-hit combo which actually comes out much faster than the Warden's with faster heavy attacks as well, not to mention overall speed and mobility as well as several ways to change distance.

Nobushi can easily poke you at range for days with three light taps in all different directions in the blink of an eye with a guaranteed hit/poison and the Peacekeeper AND Berserker can rapidly change direction of attacks. So I don't know what you're smoking when you say the Warden is the fastest attacker in the game. Are you referring maybe to his Zone Attack? That's handy, sure, but hardly a reliable measure, considering it eats half your stamina.

Edit: Also, "up to speed" is an expression.

The_Wall_
02-11-2017, 10:55 AM
It is by far easier to block Orochi and peacekeeper lights. And when Kensei dodge attacks, i would wager that anyone who is good at blocking will tell you warden mix-ups are more dangerous than any other character that just light attacks. Also regarding kensei you know where it comes and have time to parry it because you see the dodge direction. Warden zone doesnt need to tell you its coming, and can be hidden into mix-ups. Not many characters have acces to fast frame mixups because they cant feint light. And heavy into light feint is not that hard to react to. Not to mention the only long range poke kensei have is the top one, also not cancelable (did you not read my first post) which will get crush countered or at best blocked unless the warden is balls to the walls.

And about the Kensei, the final nail in the coffin regarding him, is that the heavy dash is punishable on block. You know what that means? Your opponents are gonna laugh all the way to the ledge or wall if you even dare use it near one, and in the open field you are most likely gonna eat a straight heavy vs most classes.

Now, again, im tired of repeating myself, but long range pokes are almost always top. Nobushi cant do that vs a good warden. Why? Because Warden can easily crush counter that timing, and you cannot cancel the Nobushi light top pokes.
You say "in the blink of an eye" but compared to warden attacks Nobushi attacks are hilariously slow. If you ever faced a good Valkyrie in the closed test you know what im talking about, not that was lightning lights.

Yes, peacekeeper and beserker can change attacks fast, but that is literally all they can do unless you hand them an easy deflectable hit. Funny how exactly warden is the only real counter to this, as his mix-up triple fast frames are extremely hard to do that on with reaction when they are mixed and not obvious. Hell, even just throwing them out without mixups can easily take down decent players.

As a final point, that many bring up. Yes, the zone attack costs stamina. But what is stopping a warden from chipping you with it, and then regaining stamina while blocking your inferior attacks?

Dez_troi_aR
02-11-2017, 12:36 PM
It is by far easier to block Orochi and peacekeeper lights. And when Kensei dodge attacks, i would wager that anyone who is good at blocking will tell you warden mix-ups are more dangerous than any other character that just light attacks. Also regarding kensei you know where it comes and have time to parry it because you see the dodge direction. Warden zone doesnt need to tell you its coming, and can be hidden into mix-ups. Not many characters have acces to fast frame mixups because they cant feint light. And heavy into light feint is not that hard to react to. Not to mention the only long range poke kensei have is the top one, also not cancelable (did you not read my first post) which will get crush countered or at best blocked unless the warden is balls to the walls.

And about the Kensei, the final nail in the coffin regarding him, is that the heavy dash is punishable on block. You know what that means? Your opponents are gonna laugh all the way to the ledge or wall if you even dare use it near one, and in the open field you are most likely gonna eat a straight heavy vs most classes.

Now, again, im tired of repeating myself, but long range pokes are almost always top. Nobushi cant do that vs a good warden. Why? Because Warden can easily crush counter that timing, and you cannot cancel the Nobushi light top pokes.
You say "in the blink of an eye" but compared to warden attacks Nobushi attacks are hilariously slow. If you ever faced a good Valkyrie in the closed test you know what im talking about, not that was lightning lights.

Yes, peacekeeper and beserker can change attacks fast, but that is literally all they can do unless you hand them an easy deflectable hit. Funny how exactly warden is the only real counter to this, as his mix-up triple fast frames are extremely hard to do that on with reaction when they are mixed and not obvious. Hell, even just throwing them out without mixups can easily take down decent players.

As a final point, that many bring up. Yes, the zone attack costs stamina. But what is stopping a warden from chipping you with it, and then regaining stamina while blocking your inferior attacks?

Could someone please explain to me how so many people in this Thread have become so good in two betas and maybe one closed test that they are now on super max high skill level?

Thank you for taking a sec to look down to us mere mortals for telling us that the game is "totally broken" up there.

I doubt the "at high skill lvl its just zone attack and crushing counter"-story .... the hall of heroes guys who have played any alphas/tech tests etc. and have like 300 hours playtime have their points of critique, too, but i have never seen one of their great wardens plaing the game as you just described.

The best warden out there is propably willaguy, go check his stream. He doesnt rely on crushing counter and zone attack as this thread suggests.

Concerning the zone attack: It is not supposed to be reacted to out of nowhere, it is supposed to be expected. Like a gb. It is the only tool which can strike you at a certain range, so dont just stand there. Either stand there guarding your left side and be happy if he wastes his stamina, or close the gab.

For the record: Against Warden
-Guard your left side
-Dont do Top-heavy-attack-out-of-nowhere, the warden can punish it easily (as can everyone else by just countering-->gb--> side-heavy/wall stun-->top heavy
-If you are an assasssin: Dont just stand in zone-attack range ffs. Try to close the distance fast and be ready to block/dodge to the left side during that phase.
......and while the zone attack definately is very fast, it's speed is comparable a lot of other top light attacks from Nobushi/pk, orochi, which you assume to give the warden a free crushing overhead-counter because "high level play". Seriously, you expect the warden player to react to a top light with a parry but other players are not able to simply defend against a attack which is the only attack to expect beeing at a certain distance to the warden?
-Also, the shoulder charge you HAVE to dodge backwards, otherwise the warden can gb you out of your dodge (as was described since the hall of heroes advanced mechanics- guide)
The whole "high-lvl-player" argument is totally tautologic because you can assume they will always do everything perfect, which ultimatly makes competition itself obsolete. Watch the streams of the best players and you will see that they dont get every parry down/crushing counter in etc.

Maybe my opponents were just bad, but i ahave never had a problem with wardens zone attack, because i just guard my left side when closing distance. Getting a little salty here: I think most problems with the zone attacks stem from half the people playing assassins now and are totally mindblown by beeing hit by an attack which they could not avoid by having faster light attacks.

So, no... i appreceate that you have made such a well written and thoughtful post but i dont see any valid points...

Finally, if i am just a total noob and dont have a deep enough understanding of the game yet to understand your critique, i am sorry. I only played closed and open beta.

The_Wall_
02-11-2017, 01:36 PM
Could someone please explain to me how so many people in this Thread have become so good in two betas and maybe one closed test that they are now on super max high skill level?

Thank you for taking a sec to look down to us mere mortals for telling us that the game is "totally broken" up there.

I doubt the "at high skill lvl its just zone attack and crushing counter"-story .... the hall of heroes guys who have played any alphas/tech tests etc. and have like 300 hours playtime have their points of critique, too, but i have never seen one of their great wardens plaing the game as you just described.

The best warden out there is propably willaguy, go check his stream. He doesnt rely on crushing counter and zone attack as this thread suggests.

Concerning the zone attack: It is not supposed to be reacted to out of nowhere, it is supposed to be expected. Like a gb. It is the only tool which can strike you at a certain range, so dont just stand there. Either stand there guarding your left side and be happy if he wastes his stamina, or close the gab.

For the record: Against Warden
-Guard your left side
-Dont do Top-heavy-attack-out-of-nowhere, the warden can punish it easily (as can everyone else by just countering-->gb--> side-heavy/wall stun-->top heavy
-If you are an assasssin: Dont just stand in zone-attack range ffs. Try to close the distance fast and be ready to block/dodge to the left side during that phase.
......and while the zone attack definately is very fast, it's speed is comparable a lot of other top light attacks from Nobushi/pk, orochi, which you assume to give the warden a free crushing overhead-counter because "high level play". Seriously, you expect the warden player to react to a top light with a parry but other players are not able to simply defend against a attack which is the only attack to expect beeing at a certain distance to the warden?
-Also, the shoulder charge you HAVE to dodge backwards, otherwise the warden can gb you out of your dodge (as was described since the hall of heroes advanced mechanics- guide)
The whole "high-lvl-player" argument is totally tautologic because you can assume they will always do everything perfect, which ultimatly makes competition itself obsolete. Watch the streams of the best players and you will see that they dont get every parry down/crushing counter in etc.

Maybe my opponents were just bad, but i ahave never had a problem with wardens zone attack, because i just guard my left side when closing distance. Getting a little salty here: I think most problems with the zone attacks stem from half the people playing assassins now and are totally mindblown by beeing hit by an attack which they could not avoid by having faster light attacks.

So, no... i appreceate that you have made such a well written and thoughtful post but i dont see any valid points...

Finally, if i am just a total noob and dont have a deep enough understanding of the game yet to understand your critique, i am sorry. I only played closed and open beta.

Well discussin based on both players being idiots doesnt make any matchup discussion better wouldnt' you agree?

Also the difference between warden top light and others is that warden can use his, but they cant use theirs in fear of crush, negating their pokes. That was the point of that parahraph, sorry if i wrote it so the point didn't get across.

Guarding left is easy until they begin to mix all their three fast frames with a heavy feint into zone or light top or sprint to make you think they charge hit, but actually cancel into stance dance into zone. As you can see, resting your block on left is not gonna help you much vs that.
Btw guard break is not something you need to expect, you can perfect react to guard break and tech it on reaction out of nowhere.

Dont get me wrong, i am not the best player in the world, not even close. But just like a good book critique'r can judge books without writing good books themselves, so can some mechanics and matchups be analyzed with enough knowledge.

There are some things still i need to test to verify, i am by no means done, and so my statements are of course to be judged and tested. I could be proven wrong, but so far i am not convinced that Warden is not the top tier. Fx right now im busy testing the zone attack and punish frames, will update if i find out more.

Of course all Warden tools can be played against, teched against, and Wardens are not gods walking among us. But my point still stands that at equal skill you have to work harder than the Warden if both players know the basics and their movesets.

Thanks for the big response, i have taken something to heart, and will of course check out the various good wardens around, busy watching a few already.

EDIT: Now that i confirmed warden zone is punishable by any character on block, which is huge

Stankyfoot
02-11-2017, 04:07 PM
Wall, I was talking to people complaining about Warden's shoulder bash mixup. Pound for pound, Warden is in a bad place compared to other heroes. You need to be much more skilled than your opponent to perform on the same level. Sure, good players are going to wreck face with the Warden, but they could do even better with other heroes.

The Warden suffers from what I call First Born Syndrome in game design. It's very clear that the Warden was the first hero the devs created and as time went on and new heroes were made, they kept adding new and better toolkits to them. Only problem is, it seems they forgot about the Warden, so now he's largely outclassed by everyone else and their nice quality-of-life kits and perks. The Warden isn't bad, he's just...kinda left behind. They need to go back and do some touch-ups to bring him up to speed.

I agree with 50% of what you said here. Yes, the Warden requires better fundamentals to be consistent but thats due to the nature of him being so well rounded, you as a player need to know a bit of everything. Fortunately this is also his advantage as he can engage every hero on the terms that he, himself decides. He's not pigeon holed into a particular strategy like the Noubushi

TruDotaR228
02-11-2017, 05:06 PM
no balance

AveImperator85
02-11-2017, 07:40 PM
Ok, Wall said the Nobushi's attacks are laughable slow compared to the Warden's. At this point, I'm convinced he's just a trolling idiot, so I'm finished here. Guy is clearly playing a completely different game than the rest of us, living in a fantasy world of ********.

Waynedetta40k
02-11-2017, 09:07 PM
This is just another whiny whimpy thread like all of those threads.
First off Ubi will not ever balance the game because people make those kind of threads which makes them pointless.
Second Game has not been released yet players still think they know how to balance it.

No one ever needs another reason to laugh at every TC which makes threads like this.