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Osirisx9
07-14-2004, 06:06 PM
This post is meant to generate a serious discussion about the lack of Full Real participation on full real servers. I dont want it to turn into a flame war about arcade versus so called full real.

Here are a few things that I've learned while running the Birds Of Prey full real server.

1) Plan on poor or spotty participation.
2) Expect complaints about planesets and historical matchups.
3) If you attempt to make changes in the server in order to build up participation like adding freindly only Icons, limited Icons, fading icons, you get allot of heat from the full real crowd when they finally do decide to show up.
4)This is my favorite. I cant find the server on HL.Well, the server is there. I admit I will take it down to make changes in an effort to build up its numbers but the server is up 98 percent of the time 24 hrs a day. The reason why the server is not visible is because no one bothers to join the server so that it finally has enough people to become visible on HL.
5) the final one is that few can appreiciate the difficulties in hosting a server. Especially if the the onlything thing that allot of pilots do is just click the join button in multiplayer and nerver try to host.

A couple of things about planesets and matchups. Full Real pilots will never get the variety of full real servers with the different planesets that they are looking for if they dont fly on the full real servers currently available , on HL , UBI,and ASE. Most admins believe that it is not really worth the time and effort to host a full real server if there is no real demand for them and they see that the full real servers are empty most of the time. I for one am one that thinks that way even though I preffer to fly so called Full Real.

I remember when Birds of Prey started hosting on HL . The server wasn't even up for ten minutes before the complaints started. We tried to compensate and please everyone and we still got complaints about what the server offered. We finally decided to go to just a non historic 42-45 planeset featuring the most popular aircraft so that everyone could fly their favorite aircraft. BTW I dont beleive that the missions offered are the problem. Well we still got complaints. My opinion about all of this is that admins will never put up more full real servers if they see that the full real servers currently available are empty most of the time.

Now My opinion about the so called so called Full Real settings. If the aircraft is not real, It will never be a full realistic simulation. Is it closer to being the real thing. In my opinion yes it is but that is just my opinion. Realisim is in the eye of the beholder.I fly real aircraft and I know real when I see it. And the so called Full Real setting is really not all that realistic to me. I dont have free movent of my head. I'm manipulating the veiws with a joystick button, and I'm not feeling the sensations involed in flying a real aircraft. Well thats my 2 pennys. All good day.

Salute RAF238thOsiris

Osirisx9
07-14-2004, 06:06 PM
This post is meant to generate a serious discussion about the lack of Full Real participation on full real servers. I dont want it to turn into a flame war about arcade versus so called full real.

Here are a few things that I've learned while running the Birds Of Prey full real server.

1) Plan on poor or spotty participation.
2) Expect complaints about planesets and historical matchups.
3) If you attempt to make changes in the server in order to build up participation like adding freindly only Icons, limited Icons, fading icons, you get allot of heat from the full real crowd when they finally do decide to show up.
4)This is my favorite. I cant find the server on HL.Well, the server is there. I admit I will take it down to make changes in an effort to build up its numbers but the server is up 98 percent of the time 24 hrs a day. The reason why the server is not visible is because no one bothers to join the server so that it finally has enough people to become visible on HL.
5) the final one is that few can appreiciate the difficulties in hosting a server. Especially if the the onlything thing that allot of pilots do is just click the join button in multiplayer and nerver try to host.

A couple of things about planesets and matchups. Full Real pilots will never get the variety of full real servers with the different planesets that they are looking for if they dont fly on the full real servers currently available , on HL , UBI,and ASE. Most admins believe that it is not really worth the time and effort to host a full real server if there is no real demand for them and they see that the full real servers are empty most of the time. I for one am one that thinks that way even though I preffer to fly so called Full Real.

I remember when Birds of Prey started hosting on HL . The server wasn't even up for ten minutes before the complaints started. We tried to compensate and please everyone and we still got complaints about what the server offered. We finally decided to go to just a non historic 42-45 planeset featuring the most popular aircraft so that everyone could fly their favorite aircraft. BTW I dont beleive that the missions offered are the problem. Well we still got complaints. My opinion about all of this is that admins will never put up more full real servers if they see that the full real servers currently available are empty most of the time.

Now My opinion about the so called so called Full Real settings. If the aircraft is not real, It will never be a full realistic simulation. Is it closer to being the real thing. In my opinion yes it is but that is just my opinion. Realisim is in the eye of the beholder.I fly real aircraft and I know real when I see it. And the so called Full Real setting is really not all that realistic to me. I dont have free movent of my head. I'm manipulating the veiws with a joystick button, and I'm not feeling the sensations involed in flying a real aircraft. Well thats my 2 pennys. All good day.

Salute RAF238thOsiris

p1ngu666
07-14-2004, 06:12 PM
:\
i like limited plane sets and ground targets.
dont do full real often, dont have track ir :P

make comments about faical hair to wind up FR ppl http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
<123_GWood_JG123> NO SPAM!

Osirisx9
07-14-2004, 09:01 PM
Hmnn 90 views and only 1 response . This says allot about the need for full real servers in my Book.

RAF238thOsiris

BaldieJr
07-14-2004, 09:15 PM
Lighten up. Its just a game.

Run your server YOUR way and ignore people who complain. The more you try to please them, the more they walk on you.

If you are fun to play with your server will be fun to play on. End of story.

J30Vader
07-14-2004, 09:15 PM
I like limited plane sets and ground targets.
But have never, and will not, play so called full real.

TacticalYak3
07-14-2004, 09:24 PM
The problem whenever folks supposely debate realism is that they never actually talk about realism. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

The game is trying to provide a virtual experience of flight combat during WW2. Primarily this has nothing to do with icons - which apparently is the only issue ever really debated.

Realism has everything to do with historical scenarios, plane sets and mission objectives. It has everything to do with formation flying, wingman flying, completing the task, and then returning home. It's about team work.

There is, however, a great divide in the community - closed cockpit & externals views. Externals absolutely prevent the implementation of actual flight tactics that were used by WW2 pilots. This is obvious, right? The absence of a cockpit also removes the illusion of seating in a WW2 plane.

Now should people fly without a cockpit? Do you want to? There's your answer - let's not debate such foolishness. It's YOUR game play how you wish. We all love a pure and simple dogfight regardless of the game settings. Notwithstanding external views are not for me but that's OK if you like them.

With regards to icons. My personal observation at HyperLobby over the last number of months is as follows:

(a) Mostly all dogfights with a mix of so-called arcade and almost "full-real" game settings. Some even playing "full-real." Fun but "mindless" fun. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

(b) Scripted dogfights emerge - great! - and eventually bombers actually do stuff (opposed to being just target practice). Folks also start customizing icons - reducing clutter a good thing!

(c) Now it seems that cockpit-only "crowd" forced to play on servers with increasingly complex/difficult mission objectives - are strangers really working as highly efficient teams now? I think not - and the game settings are or almost "full real" (i.e., no icons or very limited and no mini-map).

Now does game difficulty really equate to realism? Hmmmm http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Here's something to think about if you truly wish to debate realism with regards to icons. "Icons actually have NO bearing on realism" - true realism opposed to that ******ed debate about there not being icons in WW2. In case you didn't know flight combat wasn't conducted on computer screens - you knew that right?

Think about it - if both sides are given the exact same icon information then neither is at an disadvantage. The virtual pilot who knows his plane and his enemy's, employs the proper tactics, etc will usually win. This is what ought to happen.

In the absence of any icons, and especially depending on technicial things like screen resolutions, monitor dimensions, video cards, refresh rates, and so forth, the "better pilot" may not win the sortie but the one who IDs the bandit first.

IDing is a critical skill for sure, but the question remains did he accomplish this because of his developed skills/procedures in the absence of icon assistance, or was he using a 26-inch monitor set at 800x600 resolution to better ID dots on his screen than his opponent?

I am certainly not against reducing icon clutter - I can't imagine Oleg actually thought folks ought to use all the icon information, especially from 6 KM away. But when all the arguments from both sides are put forth, none of it actually deals with realism.

Hosts feel free to bring back less complicated mission objectives - let's have a mix of game settings, mission types, icons (on, customized, off), "full real," and "wonder-woman" servers.

But most of all for those interested in pursuing historical realism, let's concentrate on plane sets, maps, and pausible mission objectives and not get hang up on game settings as if they actually determine virtual realism.

TactS!

___________________________________________

"My Luftwaffe is invincible . . . And so now we turn to England. How long will this one last - two, three weeks?" (Hermann Goring, June 1940)

:FI:TacticalS!

[This message was edited by TacticalYak3 on Wed July 14 2004 at 08:33 PM.]

GTO-Razor
07-14-2004, 09:25 PM
Well just for the record i was using my hat switch with snap views settings and could not track a bandit in a full real server at all and it was very tough to compete with track ir pilots.Gozr and 131stToad both flew with me at a Team-USA practice and recorded tracks of what THEY saw and did duing the same engagement.We all shared our tracks and went back and played them back and paused at a certain point so we could all resume at almost the same time,we are on TS while watching and can give each other feedback and tips on what we did and were trying to do during the fight.This OPENED my eys to the distinct advantage that Track IR has in a flight sim..especially if the field of battle is full real.With icons on even for the same side it helps those without Tir feel better about the SA they have at least thats one less thing to do when trying to fight and evade the enemy in a FR dogfight.Since i cant afford Track-IR anytime in the near future I was persuaded by RAF238th Knight to give New View a try since it trys to do what Tir does with hardware....since then with vry few tweaks to the prog i am much more effective in a DF or mud moving mission that seem to be the most fun lately and are the staple of the FR servers in HL and ASE.I personally thought i was an ok pilot for the most part until i saw those first tracks of Toad and Gozr handing me my *** time and time again...i was at that point ready to just stop flying because i felt i was handicapped by my viewing system and just could not compete at that level period.The main problem that I had was keeping my leader or wingman in sight and trying to track bandits as well was a veritable linda blair frenzy of view snapping vertigo....i look at old tracks now and think HOW the hell did I manage to get ANY kills at all with how i looked at the gameworld?

To put it mildly i think the problem is not the servers fault so much as it is the question of FR itself that Osiris has brought up...are there enough FR servers to go around??? Yes,I think there are but what one person considers full real is another guys kiddie game with fading style limited range stuff and minimap path helpers.To put it a light everyone can understand is that we have MORE than enuff servers to fill the bill on HL as we know it today..all flavors and styles..that in itself can be a good thing,however we are desperately short on Full real pilots that actually ENJOY the FR experience and would prefer that mode over the less challenging stuff you get on some of the other servers.I have flown at all the "Full Real" servers and can find good and bad in all....but as it stands i would say that there are LESS than 100 Uberesque pilots out in the FB world and when you split that among 3 or more servers then thats going to make it hard to attract the type of crowd you are aiming for.So that means that if you are trying to market a df server to the FR crowd then it takes some advertisement and marketing to catch the eyes of those that fly FR and devote more time to the sim than merely posting about it constantly.This is one of my very few posts because i am one of the types that flys as much as i can and have found i usually agree with most of the posters but dont feel i can add anything useful so i just dont post.It subtracts from my game time and thats what this is all about getting better at the game.So in closing I must say that the server is not at fault nearly as much as it is the pilots themselves,there just simply arent enough that enjoy the FR aspect and unless a new crop of FB pilots matures soon things will stay as they are..when people get tired of the 3death kick they go to Birds of Prey or Greater Green if the want the closest to FR without icons then its BOP everytime.Personally I like flying at BOP as much if not more than most others because they have a TS server and team coodination is encouraged there to give a more authentic feel to the game,I just hate that most people never even give FR a try or have trouble getting in a good sortie on a FR server and get discouarged and stay in the newb servers forever which only limits the skills they have accquired.Well this has gotten waaaay longer than was needed but as i pondered the thread other factors had to be acounted for thus my lenghty post. Salute to all the Full Real mavens....hope you all chk6 frequently on BOP when flying never know who might be creeping in on ya! TX-Razor over and out.

Osirisx9
07-14-2004, 09:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Lighten up. Its just a game.

Run your server YOUR way and ignore people who complain. The more you try to please them, the more they walk on you.

If you are fun to play with your server will be fun to play on. End of story.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually agree with you BaldieJr. I tried to give them exactly what they wanted and thats that. Its time to move on and run the server as I see fit.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2004, 09:35 PM
Well, the full real guys are ALL WET when it comes to icons, because this sim is painfully deficient in visibility. Quite simply put, you can't see what you should. Camoflage works way too well, especially for a few VVS planes, like P39s which can be invisible in plain view. And certain maps, like the Normandy map and the awful AWFUL Finnish "Zero visibility" maps make spotting from any altitude a frustrating example in futility.

So, stand firm on your icons. Provided they're not the huge, three mile wide icons with all the information you don't need, and appear at 15km, but more thoughtful icons that provide a decent simulation of the eagle-eyed pilots sim participants are supposed to be, you're doing fine. Also, don't fall into the "friendly icon only" trap. The visual problem with the sim is not that you can't see *friendly* planes well enough: it's that you can't see *any* planes well enough. Give friendlies slightly longer icons if you want to simulate communication and training, but give ALL planes some icons.

As for matchups, most guys will automatically whine if there's no P-51, Spit or Yak 3 to climb into, no matter where your map is. Don't listen to morons who have never read a book about WWII. There are many, many interesting and fair matchups besides "Attack of the Ueberplanes", and the net is full of examples of this. Do a tiny bit of research and you'll see.

Another suggestion: WINTER MAPS. This community would have you think Russia's on the equator somewhere. You NEVER see snow. Doofuses... try some variation in seasons, rather than the usual attempt to make visibility near zero to further make icons necessary.

bodaw
07-14-2004, 09:37 PM
Salute!

Hi, me and my squad frequent your server a lot and we appreciate the good maps and good connections. However, you should also note that right now it is Summer vacation time and most people, including me, are preoccupied with family stuff and could not fly as much as we would like to.

Thank you for the great server and I hope to see this server on HL for a long time to come.

~S!~
II./JG1_Schaefer

TheGozr
07-14-2004, 09:47 PM
Ok actually all this it's simply fixed with a new Browser who can see All servers. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/images/IOCompetition.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

BennyMoore
07-14-2004, 09:59 PM
Exactly! "Full" realism is not fully realistic. It is simply as realistic as full realism with externals. Why, you ask? Because the "full" realism hands enough unrealistic disadvantages to the player to make it every inch as unrealistic as full realism with externals. I, too, have flown in real life. Although I only have a few hours, I know very, very well what I can see five thousand feet away in real life and not in the game. And that is a lot of things.

That said, I really do miss the "scan the skies" bit, and the absence of tactics. Unfortunately, I do not have enough money to blow on Track IR, which is much better than snappy joystick hat but still not as natural as normal head movement in real life. And no matter what your settings are, you still can't move your head (not turn, move). That is why I do not consider "full" realism to be more realistic than full realism with externals.

Now, the no cockpit mode crowd have almost no leg to stand on. The only argument that they could possibly make justifying the no cockpit mode is that in real life, you could raise yourself up in your seat while lining up a shot so that you could better see the target you're leading. I know that this is possible, because I've done it in real life (although not with gunnery; but I have raised myself up in my seat and consequently been able to see something that I couldn't before because it was just barely hidden by the cowling).

Hawgdog
07-14-2004, 10:09 PM
I was going to just put "LOL" and leave it at that.
Yeah, make servers the way you like and threatent anyone who complains you'll sell their birthdays on Ebay.

I like closed cockpit, externals, no icons personally. Some of these pits are just too good not to fly in them, but gotta have externals, too often a fellow bud online will get into trouble and its just too funny NOT to watch.

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/sharkdog.gif
When you get to Hell, tell 'em HawgDog sent you!

WUAF_Badsight
07-14-2004, 10:29 PM
" LOL "

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WUAF_Badsight
07-14-2004, 10:34 PM
with 101 DF rooms up at HL being open cockpit & externals , why add more

UBI used to be like HL is now , lately its almost 9/10 open cockpit

*throws up*

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WUAF_Badsight
07-14-2004, 10:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
It is simply as realistic as full realism with externals. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wot a load of c.rap

the only way id ever say otherwise was if it was possible to have external bandit lock off with external view on

externals allow what shouldnt be possible



locked pit & no icons &lt;~~~~~~ this gets out of wack when its all planes each side

locked pit & icons (especially freindly only)

external servers are arcade dogfighting servers

it might sound elietest & might come across as a put down

but its true none the less

cockpit on & locked

make the players hunt & look , stuff those who want it easy

down with easy settings

im elitest & proud


.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

TacticalYak3
07-14-2004, 10:42 PM
"Also, don't fall into the "friendly icon only" trap. The visual problem with the sim is not that you can't see *friendly* planes well enough: it's that you can't see *any* planes well enough."

Exactly mate! Great post. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

___________________________________________

"My Luftwaffe is invincible . . . And so now we turn to England. How long will this one last - two, three weeks?" (Hermann Goring, June 1940)

:FI:TacticalS!

tascaso
07-14-2004, 11:00 PM
Agreed the only full real is the real thing so now what do we do! I fly VEF and VWF...I used to be a crippled cockpit off pilot...no more! I learned to dogfight, Boom and Zoom, and to move mud with cockpit on and no icons. When I fly offline campaigns I even turn off the speedbar. Why cause its fun! Have fun...fly the way you want and yeah I will visit birds of prey and not be a critic thanks for hosting!

123_Tony_123VEF

brimigus
07-14-2004, 11:00 PM
I gave up on the cockpit only servers because i came to the conclution that it's about the equlivlent of driving down the freeway with one eye closed and looking out the end of a toilet paper roll with the other eye.It's kinda fun but you miss the scenery.

WUAF_Badsight
07-14-2004, 11:11 PM
the only reason to fly with the cockpit off is because its eaiser

you actually need DF progression knowledge

you actually need ability to land shots

you STILL only have a flat view screen with it off

but its eaiser , like unbelieveably so

*throws up*

EDIT : i fly all settings & enjoy them all

but i aint gunna lie about the reason people fly the arcade newbie settings

its cause its easy

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Hoarmurath
07-14-2004, 11:15 PM
the problem is :

There are too many DF servers on HL with the same settings.

Half of the servers are FR with speedbar on, limited icons on, and sometime minimap on.

The remaining servers are usually with externals, full icons, no cockpit view, speedbar and minimap.

Curiously, there is nothing in between, no alternatives.

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/)

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
07-15-2004, 01:50 AM
Hmmm
My initial reaction is if you dont want to host it that way 'DONT'. Sure as God made green apples if you dont someone else will.

I appreciate you may be trying to provide a service to the community but you have to remember the kind of community you are providing this service for. We are talking about people that will sit and spew about the layout of a Goddam cockpit or dispersion of their freaking bullets. Not to mention the I fly cos school is out category!! Bottom line your never gona please every one so dont even try.

I would also like to add that as far as I can tell the only way that a 'so called' FR server seems to really shine is when you have squads that fly as a unit and communicate. FR servers do not suit individual one man armies, which to be honest is what you tend to find a lot of on HL and is probably why you see less traffic than some of the Quick fix 'arcadey' servers.

In closing the old adage of two pairs of eyes are better than one holds very true in FR servers. Maybe you need to get your self sponsored by a league or a couple of dedicated FR squads (if there are any)?

Not sure I have really made my point here but its my tuppeny bit on the subject.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/planes/signiture3.jpg

carguy_
07-15-2004, 01:55 AM
Can you Dig iiit?!
Can you DIG IIIT?!
CAN YOU DIG IIIIIT?!

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

WTE_Galway
07-15-2004, 02:01 AM
i think the reason full real dogfight servers are not that popular is that most people that prefer harder/more-historical settings tend to gravitate towards co-ops and virtual wars

after all the WWI style furballs in a dogfight server are the complete opposite of the historical realism most full real pilots are trying to achieve

its all personal choice no particular mode is "better" .. personally, offline, i fly cockpit on and speedbar off but leave the icons, HUD, map icons and radio chatter turned on

3.JG51_Stecher
07-15-2004, 02:16 AM
Don't sweat it, that's the way full switch servers have always been. The players that prefer these settings make up a very small percentage of the total community. We have to count on planning and timing more than the rest because of our numbers. Just tonight I was on your server and there were 15-20 players for 5 hours straight. It's the best server going right now in my opinion. Some other nights full switch pilots filter in at different times, and they don't want to jump into an empty server and wait. So it never gets started unless a small group joins together. I prefer smaller historical plane sets that change with each map, but your 42-45 thing is working just fine, as most take 44 mounts. If you're trying to see if there is a need for a full switch server, the answer is a LOUD YES! We may be a small percentage, but we are not exactly few. I enjoy the hell out of the BIRDSOFPREY server and I hope you decide to keep it going. Let me know if I can do anything to help.

http://flygirl.dnsalias.com:8080/jg51/109sig.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

BaldieJr
07-15-2004, 02:31 AM
Find a squad that doesn't have its own dedicated server and adopt them as a sister squad for practice.

Most people really don't care about settings, when it comes right down to it. What they want is lots of targets and plenty of action.

Try small maps, well matched plane sets, and get another squad in the server regularly with your own. That'll draw a crowd pretty quick, and if it doesn't: no big deal, you've already got a good game going.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
07-15-2004, 02:32 AM
well im flying full real for a pretty long time now and never looked back, i prefer no icons et al and with limited/historical planeset i dont really mind if map path is on/off
I dont have TIR and do very well in those kinda servers although i loose my targets frequently and on some maps its impossible to BnZ at clear weather/daylight i just dont see other planes agaisnt the ground (Normandy,MT desert comes to mind) and some planes just dissapear in front off my nose http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

flying with no icons is so much more intense you have to be concentrated all the time and study the dots you see.

like i said i have no TIR and i regret it, i wonder how good i will do if i have it
because when i watch my tracks back i notice i miss alot of action very close to me and getting bounced by planes so close that i wonder how i could not see them

i have flown on the birds of pray i few times and i like it but its mostly empty when i want to join and when i join i see alot of normandy and thats the map (altough nice) i dont like to fly on when in full real W/O TIR

i would say just keep it going and host the way you want i prefer your server above WC44 because its a bit laggy/freezy and your server is smoother for me i also found out the WC host isnt that nice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

in our own ded squad server we say 'dont like it ,dont fly it'
with that simple rule the people who do like it stay and the others just leave without complaining http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.hell-hounds.de
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/sunsigHH.jpg
''All your Mustangs are belong to us''

Redwulf__26
07-15-2004, 02:53 AM
As far as the visability thing goes I think it is handy to have limited icons due to the blocking and pixcelation caused by the screens. However, it can ident aircraft to early. I think you would be pushed to get a posative ID on something silouetted against the sky inside a mile and as for como working when looking down, I had the Red Arrows pass by me 1500 ft below and didn't spot them. Ive seen camoed warbirds pass below at a 1000 ft, taken my eyes off for a second and never seen them again, the game gives a very false impression of "realism". Plus nobody ever got airsick flying a computer in the bedroom. Its still a good game on full real though.

Monson74
07-15-2004, 02:55 AM
I've hosted FR+speedbar games since the original IL2 but not with much success. There are all sorts of complaints about the setting & everything so I've pretty much given it up. You fly around for an hour or so & the people joining the game comes in - says hi - look at the planeset - complain about the La7 not being available in my '41 map & leave... Well a few people are VERY positive but they make up say 5% of the community - maybe we should make a FR club. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

S!

Monson


"The Zerst├┬Ârers will form an offensive circle." - G├┬Âring

Monson74
07-15-2004, 03:04 AM
btw - I've never had any probs with the views in FB - no need for trackir or other fancy stuff to survive in a FR hostile environment. I have 4 views on my tophat: up, front up, back/left & back/right - is all I need & if I can't see I tilt the plane. If I still can't see - I hope noone is there http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

S!

Monson


"The Zerst├┬Ârers will form an offensive circle." - G├┬Âring

Redwulf__26
07-15-2004, 03:14 AM
I don't use TIR either, just a combination of mouse and top hat. I find the mouse gives a better rearward view. You just have to be sneaky.

JG52Uther
07-15-2004, 03:44 AM
Well Osiris,I love your server, i think its the smoothest one out there.I fly it when i can and also try to get the squad on it when we are together (although with holiday season here that is difficult)fos some strange reason everyone seems to go on warclouds,and then go on and on about lag ,freezes etc.Also its catch 22.nobody wants to go on an empty server, so nobody joins!We find as a squad that if we start up a DF server then people start joining.I have seen your server empty and feel guilty when i just dont have the time to join as i think you have one of the best servers going.I just dont know what the answer is.FR is always going to be in the minority.Run your server the way you want to.Salut!Uther

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/JG52Uther/FW.jpg Yeah Baby!!

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-15-2004, 04:30 AM
Having fun yet Osiris. You just have to do what Baldie and a few others said, load it the way you want it and let it go. There are too many different views on how a server should be setup. Find a happy medium. Everyone has to make concessions.

Personally, i do not like flying in a no icon situation. The graphics on a computer screen are just not good enough to do this IMHO. I find that to ID a target with no icons, you end up burning off all your E and advantage to ID the plane. Then after you get a good ID, you are left with no E to battle with.

RK_HH-Sunburst, poor form. Not very nice to make statements like that when others have no idea of the events that happened.

For those saying that War Clouds is laggier then Birds of Prey. Yes at times it is. This is not because of the hardware or the internet connection of the server. It's due to it popularity. There are so many people on the server from so many differnt parts of the world and some of them are inducing lag into the game. Welcome to internet gaming. When Birds of Prey gains its popularity, it will suffer from the same lag issues. Its happen to ever server out there. Internet gaming has lag, thats all there is to it.

S~
SPaRX

ElAurens
07-15-2004, 05:30 AM
Osiris...Set it up as you like and be happy.

Personally I have been flying less on HL because the majority of DF servers seem to have the cockpit disabled. I will not fly a no cockpit server, period. And those who say they don't because they don't have TrackIR are just copping out. I have never used it, and I do just fine thank you...

No cockpit wiht limited close friendly icons seems to be the best compromise for me. But, I will and do fly no icons and have no problem with it. I don't stay long in full icon servers though.

S!

_____________________________

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/Curtiss_logo.gif

BlitzPig_EL

RAF238thKnight
07-15-2004, 06:00 AM
On lag settings we do run ours tighter then Warclouds and Sparks is right he suffers from more lag. We chose to go with FR and pilots who have the connection speed. Sry, this puts some of you out, however it is trully no fun when your on a six and the plane moves like a UFO as you try and track.

On the issue of full real, this means to me immersion. When I fly on the server I turn off my aids (some may chose to leave them on) No speed bar. Heck this is not needed most of us can see the Mph guage or the alt guage so in my book it is not needed. The thing that gets me is the Hud display I also turn this off. (To madox games make sure all guages work and are correct then some would turn this off) I turn it off cause in the planes I fly I dnt need it. I recomend trying this for a time get used to combat and checking your guages. This trully adds to my FR simulation experience.

I for one believe that once people fly FR for a time they develop the skills. It's like when I first moved to FB from the that other sim I sat and complained about the FM. Then with joystick settings tweaked and flight time I have had fun. I think alot of the squadless and easy setting pilots just have not spent enough time in the cockpit to really get the feel. YES, it is much easier to kill a banking target without cockpit on. In a spit for example sometimes you gotta lead them and their under your nose, heck they may have even banked back the other way LOL.

Well thats my 2 cents

Knight

JG52Uther
07-15-2004, 06:08 AM
Aha Knight! so thats how you get me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif Next time i WILL bank the other way http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif S!

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/JG52Uther/FW.jpg Yeah Baby!!

Werg78
07-15-2004, 06:47 AM
im kinda new to IL2 and used to fly offline with cockpit off+icons+minimap icons&path. but the thing that got me really hooked on the games was trying to survive on a FR dogfight server.

the pure need to communicate and fly in formations making coordinated strikes (im a mudmover most of the time since im still a veeery bad dogfighter) - in short FUN!

now i have even started to play offline with cockpit and no icons. its just better immersion and the view out of the cockpit looks way cooler then a fullscreen with just a crosshair http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

slightly OT question: what is this "New View" someone mentioned? im looking for a too that simulates the mouse view-movement with the coolie hat.

Atomic_Marten
07-15-2004, 07:02 AM
Who cares about their whining?!? Not real FM, nor DM and similar bul*s**t. But if they continue with whining give 'em all LA7.

Jolly good show!

Hoarmurath
07-15-2004, 07:42 AM
No marten, this would not stop the whinning... give them all Fiat CR42, so they have a good reason to whine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/)

Sturm_Williger
07-15-2004, 08:40 AM
Personally, I'm still a noob. That said, I have no problem with flying with the cockpit on. It's the visibility of other planes that really gets me. I would have to say that I prefer some form of icon. Hell even friendly only would be fine.

For example, my 2 FR experiences had me pursuing and shooting at an allied plane ( and only realising this when hearing someone else say "Look there, it's a 109 shooting another 109." ) - even at a range of about .40, I didn't realise who/what he was. ( Between trying to lead, muzzle flashes and his own evasion efforts, I can't say I saw much of him at all ) - a friendly icon would at least let me know not to zoom down 1000m and waste all my E.

In the other mission, I managed to lose an entire formation of B17s after one circle &lt;hangs head&gt; Fair enough, in Cockpit, you don't have the little arrows, so that one's purely down to me being a muppet and not noting initial heading of the formation.

Still, I feel that icons of some kind would be useful even in FR servers and No Icons probably IMHO keeps more people away than Cockpit On.

Nevertheless, I support any server hosts right to run it the way they see fit - you can never please all the people even some of the time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
07-15-2004, 10:33 AM
I tend to use the tracer's as a visual cue to who is on my side Allies fire red and Axis fire blue. Also check what your flakk is doing (if any) chances are you will find the bad guys where they are firing. Also when you get to about .4 then switch to full zoom on gunsight and verify before you take that shot. Those are just some of the things I look for.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/planes/signiture3.jpg

Spinnetti
07-15-2004, 10:47 AM
&gt; The population of 'full real' folks is much smaller than the total of the other combos of flyers (e.g. real but icons, full arcade etc).

&gt; The full real guys are prone to greater compliaining that those who treat it as it is - a GAME (since they tend to think of themselves as better or more expert than everybody else)

&gt; You will always displease people with plane selection. I pretty much only fly the FW190A-5, so for folks like me stuck on a particular plane, if its not in the set, they won't fly. Problem is, we all have different favorites. If you include all planes, all the ego jockeys pick the hottest planes, and the ones who favor other craft don't have a chance.

&gt; I fly full real (sometimes will small icons sice I can't see that great), but don't bother with online play too much because I don't have time to fly for hours looking for action, only to get bounced and have to do it all over. I assume there are others like me too. I only have time for some near instant action..


&gt;&gt; Recommendation:
Pick the era, maps, planes and so forth YOU like. If there are enough like minded people, they will join up, and over time you may build a small but loyal following to your server. Forget all the whiners. Its not worth it for a dumb game - no matter how good the game is whiney people will always abound.

johann_thor
07-15-2004, 10:59 AM
whats the point of flying full real (with or without icons) when there is no script running to make it a battle http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BinaryFalcon
07-15-2004, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now My opinion about the so called so called Full Real settings. If the aircraft is not real, It will never be a full realistic simulation. Is it closer to being the real thing. In my opinion yes it is but that is just my opinion. Realisim is in the eye of the beholder.I fly real aircraft and I know real when I see it. And the so called Full Real setting is really not all that realistic to me. I dont have free movent of my head. I'm manipulating the veiws with a joystick button, and I'm not feeling the sensations involed in flying a real aircraft.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree more.

It's a $40 simulation of air combat. It is NOT actual air combat. As a result, there are quite a few limitations that aren't going to be overcome with anything less than a Level D simulator, and even then, it still wouldn't be perfect. Primarily, the view system sucks. And I'm not just talking about IL2/FB here, which I think has a pretty good system actually. I'm talking about all sims confined to a flat monitor screen with a FOV significantly less than what is naturally seen by the eye. Visual aids such as icons and no cockpit help to overcome these artificial limitations. Again, they're not "full real" either, but they're actually more "full real" than disabling them because they bring your performance level much closer to what you'd be able to achieve in real life by looking around and leaning to the sides in the cockpit, to say nothing of being limited by the resolution restrictions of a computer monitor.

Personally, I prefer "full real" on all the flight dynamics (which in themselves aren't perfect. I've done things with a P38 that was physically missing an engine that I should've had no right or hope to accomplish in something as tame as a PA-44, let alone a twin like the Lightning), icons on, and views fully allowed so players can use them as they like. I also tend to leave CEM off, as I don't feel it's particularly accurate and my setup lacks the physical controls to manage it properly anyway. When CEM is enabled I tend to just set the props full forward anyway, as I'm most likely going to be in combat and won't want to oversquare the engine.

"Full Real" is a joke. "Unrealistically difficult" is more accurate. Ultimately it should all be about fun. Play with whatever settings you like. Just don't think for a minute that playing "FR" makes you somehow "more of a man", and don't go giving the rest of us flak about the settings we use.

The sim is customizable because it allows just about everyone to tweak it to their liking and maximize their enjoyment of it. That's a great thing, and no one way is any more "right" than any other.

[This message was edited by BinaryFalcon on Thu July 15 2004 at 10:41 AM.]

Atomic_Marten
07-15-2004, 11:34 AM
Hoarmurath.
If admin (whatever http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif) choose CR42 or any other biplane for them, that will be 'no good idea'. It will give them an opportunity for even more (than usual) skillful low alt epileptic TnB attacks than monoplane set. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

WUAF_Toad
07-15-2004, 11:42 AM
Too many times I've seen planes disappear when they dive down while I'm staring directly at them. Icons for me. Besides, in cockpit locked servers, icons help you keep track of where the boogies are behind the bars. You might not see what they're doing but atleast you still have a sense of where they are. While neither icon-on or icon-off settings are realistic, icon-on is more realistic then icon-off.

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2004, 12:02 PM
Well, I'll go on record and say that "harder is not necessarily better".

The key thing for me is, what makes for a better SIMULATION, all things considered?

It's not about my comfort level or your comfort level, it's what creates the most realistic environment and results, more often than not, given the challenges and kludges we simply have to accept.

That's why, for me, "full real" (as opposed to simply full switch) would equate to:

Cockpit ON
NO EXTERNALS (I would allow them for planes on the ground, or non-flying spectators, if Oleg would put it in the sim)
No map Icons (but "your plane" icon and mission waypoints; this simulates previous experience, time to digest flight plans [time we often don't get in the rush to 'hit Fly' and go] mission planning, etc. No need to torture people with "blank" maps)
Icons: Enemy: Type only to 3km
Icons: Friendly: Name/Type to 3km, Type to 5km
(extra 2km simulates command control, communication, assumed training).

This, IMHO, best simulates real pilots' visual acuity, makes up for the sim's graphical shortcomings, and creates action that matches 1st person accounts. Bounces still can and will happen: icons don't help people who aren't checking around them anyway. Icons or not, I get most of my kills from bounces.

Spinnetti
07-15-2004, 12:39 PM
[QUOTE]
That's why, for me, "full real" (as opposed to simply full switch) would equate to:

Cockpit ON
NO EXTERNALS (I would allow them for planes on the ground, or non-flying spectators, if Oleg would put it in the sim)
No map Icons (but "your plane" icon and mission waypoints; this simulates previous experience, time to digest flight plans [time we often don't get in the rush to 'hit Fly' and go] mission planning, etc. No need to torture people with "blank" maps)
Icons: Enemy: Type only to 3km
Icons: Friendly: Name/Type to 3km, Type to 5km
(extra 2km simulates command control, communication, assumed training).
QUOTE]

I like all of those ideas, especially the spectator view. I only like full cockpit, but would like to be able to watch others from the outside view after a crash or shoot down.

I also would like to have (maybe already possible?) to have just itty-bitty icons - basically just a small colored dot. I can't pick planes out worth a darn, but don't like the smallest icons either.

antifreeze
07-15-2004, 12:45 PM
Just to say that I've had a lot of fun lately in 'birds of prey'. I like the small crowd that's there at the moment. Thanks for hosting. Don't stop!
You need a tough skin; just ignore criticism. There is nothing to complain about in this game, and all who do so need to play some other games for comparison to remind them how good this one is, or go take some flying lessons if it doesn't meet their 'standards'.
Expect more whining during the summer holidays; we always tend to assume that the person typing is the same age as us, but they could be ten. When would you take cr@p from a ten year old in real life?

http://www.forgotten.battles.pulpo.co.uk/il2logo.jpg (http://www.the-vaw.com)
9th AWACS is Recruiting: (http://www.9thawacs.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=19)
Accept all players (16+ years old).
Play FB for fun + VEF/VOW.
Fly when you want to (no minimum).
Training given on request.
Dedicated Teamspeak server.
Several other games played.
Members from all over Europe.

Hoarmurath
07-15-2004, 12:58 PM
Could it be possible to increase time limit for the scenarios? it's hard to reach objectives before time limit (i must admit that there is not a lot of people trying...)

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/)

Monty_Thrud
07-15-2004, 01:35 PM
I hope you dont take offence to this comment but i feel BIRDS OF PREY is too much like WARCLOUDS, now i like flying on both servers but if i want warclouds maps and planeset i'll fly their, but the planesets are becoming to similar.
I must admit i prefered your other maps and planes you used to have...the island defence, foggy evening, campfire lit runway. Theres so many planes to choose from in IL2 and so many never getting used, it must be very difficult, but you cant please all the people all the time, you must ignore the whiners, even WC gets them and this is often full.
I would suggest a different or wider planeset with something for the mudmovers AND fighters, ie the ships defence map is a good one, maybe a winter map, different weather, settings as you want them(ill fly most settings as long as its cockpit always on) and stick with it.
This is just my tuppence ha'penny worth, hope it doesnt come accross in the wrong way, i enjoy your server and appreciate the effort you and all server admins give us, in this seemingly thankless task....please keep up the good work, i can assure you it is very much appreciated http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.uploadit.org/bsamania/Huzzy_no_ordnance03.jpg
"#2 Attack that ship".."#1..with what?".."#2 your ordnance DAMMIT!".."#1 my ordnance is in Olegs office, same place yours is".."#2 we'd better learn German then"

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-15-2004, 01:39 PM
Knight,

Its not the connection speeds that matter as much as the clients system. I know players on the server that have 350-400ms Pings and can play stutter free. Its not the speed of the connection, its the consistancy of that connection. I have played on Birds of Prey for quite a few hours and i have seen the same lag issues on your server as i see on War Clouds. The problems always start when the server gets 20 or more pilots. The reason for this is most of the time the clients machines cannot handle that many players in game at one time. Their system does not have the resources it takes to keep track of all those pilots. So many players try to play on servers with 512megs of ram and a 64 meg video card. Yeah, they can play just fine on servers with lower player counts, but as soon as the player count gets hight, hey just do not ahve enough resources there to keep track of all these planes. This is what causes 90% of the lag on ALL servers.

Sorry to be off subject here. I just want players to understand what causes most of the lag.

S~

SPaRX

BM357_PREACHER
07-15-2004, 02:41 PM
For me Full Switch is the most challenging. Great server. Always great competition and sportsmanship. Wish I had time to fly it more often. S~ from the BM357th

Crying won't help you
Praying won't do you no good

Hell's Fire and Hot Lead
The Preacher

Osirisx9
07-15-2004, 02:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
Knight,

Its not the connection speeds that matter as much as the clients system. I know players on the server that have 350-400ms Pings and can play stutter free. Its not the speed of the connection, its the consistancy of that connection. I have played on Birds of Prey for quite a few hours and i have seen the same lag issues on your server as i see on War Clouds. The problems always start when the server gets 20 or more pilots. The reason for this is most of the time the clients machines cannot handle that many players in game at one time. Their system does not have the resources it takes to keep track of all those pilots. So many players try to play on servers with 512megs of ram and a 64 meg video card. Yeah, they can play just fine on servers with lower player counts, but as soon as the player count gets hight, hey just do not ahve enough resources there to keep track of all these planes. This is what causes 90% of the lag on ALL servers.

Sorry to be off subject here. I just want players to understand what causes most of the lag.

S~

SPaRX<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was hoping that this topic wouldn't turn into this server versus that server. Warclouds appeals to a certain group of pilots and Birds of Prey Full Real appeals to another. Lets just leave it like that. Lag does show its face on all servers and I admit it does happen on Bird Of Prey. One thing I am pleased to say is that Birds Of Prey is well known for being extremely smooth with very few episodes of Lag even when there is a full room.

Respectfully
RAF238thOsiris

BaldieJr
07-15-2004, 02:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
Knight,

Its not the connection speeds that matter as much as the clients system. I know players on the server that have 350-400ms Pings and can play stutter free. Its not the speed of the connection, its the consistancy of that connection. I have played on Birds of Prey for quite a few hours and i have seen the same lag issues on your server as i see on War Clouds. The problems always start when the server gets 20 or more pilots. The reason for this is most of the time the clients machines cannot handle that many players in game at one time. Their system does not have the resources it takes to keep track of all those pilots. So many players try to play on servers with 512megs of ram and a 64 meg video card. Yeah, they can play just fine on servers with lower player counts, but as soon as the player count gets hight, hey just do not ahve enough resources there to keep track of all these planes. This is what causes 90% of the lag on ALL servers.

Sorry to be off subject here. I just want players to understand what causes most of the lag.

S~

SPaRX<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your net speed is set too high.

BlackShrike
07-15-2004, 03:03 PM
fullreal vs arcade. they are both fun and both server types are needed

patch_adams
07-15-2004, 03:12 PM
Does BOP still have biased planesets, or did they change that? Last time i was on there all fockewulfs past an a5 were banned.

gates123
07-15-2004, 03:15 PM
I think .5 friendly icons are the way to go. You can still distinguish plane sillouettes out at 1.0 (1000m) with full fov zoom and knowingly engage enemy a/c w/o blowing your cover due to enemy icons being on. Plus voice comms are much better if you can tell which friendly to BREAK RIGHT! and for me adds immersion. Oh and of course this is all in a locked cockpit setting =) I just really think enemy icons blow any sort of bounce from a disadvantage. If your at his 6 low with enemy icons on its just a matter of time before your spotted and you just wasted 5 minutes creeping up on the guy from 1000m below.

http://www.fightingcolors.com/custompagestuff/b17visibility72.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

willyvic
07-15-2004, 03:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
Can you Dig iiit?!
Can you DIG IIIT?!
CAN YOU DIG IIIIIT?!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Warriors!

Sorry for the hijack...carry on.

http://www.geocities.com/mompeepers/willyvic/mig3u.jpg

609IAP_Recon
07-15-2004, 03:39 PM
I love the server, don't change a thing....except...

I would like to talk to you about a project with DCG.

All this talk on settings - but really what is missing is something that makes flying df servers interesting. Nowdays, the FBD is more of a map changer utility than a true mission based df.

And the key missing is DCG. DCG allows for dynamic online dogfight campaigns. Picture a 24/7 df server that is running a real war - you are fighting for frontline movement, etc...

Not this '22 tanks left' type mode.

I could go on, but I won't.

My comment: stop making the argument about settings - full real is a great setup - let's take it a step further for a change and discuss immersion of gameplay.

Salute!

S!
Recon
Full Real Virtual Online War: Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com)

Osirisx9
07-15-2004, 03:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch_adams:
Does BOP still have biased planesets, or did they change that? Last time i was on there all fockewulfs past an a5 were banned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Patch I see that you are still trolling. If you have any suggestions them make them. Blanket statements are always useless.

Sturm_Williger
07-15-2004, 03:49 PM
I agree with gates123 - I have no problem with being bounced by someone I didn't see ( seems realistic to me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )
It's the bouncing of my buddies that I'd like to avoid. Friendly icons is plenty good enough.

Osirisx9
07-15-2004, 04:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
I hope you dont take offence to this comment but i feel BIRDS OF PREY is too much like WARCLOUDS, now i like flying on both servers but if i want warclouds maps and planeset i'll fly their, but the planesets are becoming to similar.
I must admit i prefered your other maps and planes you used to have...the island defence, foggy evening, campfire lit runway. Theres so many planes to choose from in IL2 and so many never getting used, it must be very difficult, but you cant please all the people all the time, you must ignore the whiners, even WC gets them and this is often full.
I would suggest a different or wider planeset with something for the mudmovers AND fighters, ie the ships defence map is a good one, maybe a winter map, different weather, settings as you want them(ill fly most settings as long as its cockpit always on) and stick with it.
This is just my tuppence ha'penny worth, hope it doesnt come accross in the wrong way, i enjoy your server and appreciate the effort you and all server admins give us, in this seemingly thankless task....please keep up the good work, i can assure you it is very much appreciated http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.uploadit.org/bsamania/Huzzy_no_ordnance03.jpg
"#2 Attack that ship".."#1..with what?".."#2 your ordnance DAMMIT!".."#1 my ordnance is in Olegs office, same place yours is".."#2 we'd better learn German then"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In an earlier post on this topic I mentioned that if full real pilots were to fly on and fill the full real servers that are currently available more admins might take notice and provide the servers and Planesets that you are looking for. When the Warbirds Birds Of Prey website is up and running I myself will be more than willing to add as many full real servers as you want.

In fact I'm still trying to figure out how Birds Of Prey is being compared to War-Clouds. The current planeset might be almost the same, but we run totally different ping, server, anticheat and visibility settings. Also Knight and I also try to make make missions that promote teamwork. I myself and a big fan of ground attack and cant wait for my B-25 to arrive. Right now I'm running visibility settings that I feel are very realisitc. I based the settings off of my real world flying experience. I think allot of individuals believe that making something hard(Even though I like flying full switch)makes it more realistic.

RAF238thOsiris

[This message was edited by Osirisx9 on Thu July 15 2004 at 03:44 PM.]

Monty_Thrud
07-15-2004, 04:52 PM
I was hoping you would take this as constructive critism, im just giving my opinion and yes the icon settings are different, i meant planesets and maps...i am just trying to help... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm easy to please usually, so maybe im not the sort you need an opinion from, i'll fly anywhere theres enough descent folk to shoot me down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://www.uploadit.org/bsamania/Huzzy_no_ordnance03.jpg
"#2 Attack that ship".."#1..with what?".."#2 your ordnance DAMMIT!".."#1 my ordnance is in Olegs office, same place yours is".."#2 we'd better learn German then"

Osirisx9
07-15-2004, 05:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monty_Thrud:
I was hoping you would take this as constructive critism, im just giving my opinion and yes the icon settings are different, i meant planesets and maps...i am just trying to help... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm easy to please usually, so maybe im not the sort you need an opinion from, i'll fly anywhere theres enough descent folk to shoot me down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://www.uploadit.org/bsamania/Huzzy_no_ordnance03.jpg
"#2 Attack that ship".."#1..with what?".."#2 your ordnance DAMMIT!".."#1 my ordnance is in Olegs office, same place yours is".."#2 we'd better learn German then"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your always welcome on Birds Of Prey Monty. Your comments did in fact help and I'll look for more solutions to make Birds Of Prey more orginal. Thanks

RAF238thOsiris

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-15-2004, 05:42 PM
Osiris,

I am not turning this into a Server vs Server thing. I mearly pointed out what are some causes of lag. Thats it.

SPaRX

Capt.England
07-15-2004, 05:49 PM
To be Full Real, it must be set up by someone how did fight the battle that the server uploads. How can anyone say it's "Full Real" if they never took part in the servers battleground?

Britwhiner No.1

BaldieJr
07-15-2004, 06:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt.England:
To be Full Real, it must be set up by someone how did fight the battle that the server uploads. How can anyone say it's "Full Real" if they never took part in the servers battleground?

Britwhiner No.1
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Full Real applies to difficulty settings. It does not apply to virtual reality, fooled perceptions, or the application of games in teaching history.

Please review this illustration while paying particular attention to the pointers location:
http://www.fighterjerks.com/REAL.jpg

TacticalYak3
07-15-2004, 08:30 PM
Generally one of the better discussions about realism.

I like the suggestion about "inactive" players being able to use externals while active participants remain limited to the cockpit - this has been discussed in the Mission Builders forum in relationship to building/playing campaigns and coops.

Personally, I would like to re-state that some servers are getting too complex with their mission objectives. If folks truly worked together these missions would be a real blast, but let's be honest and admit even when comms are offered few players coordinate themselves, let alone read the entire briefing.

Regards,
TactS!

___________________________________________

"My Luftwaffe is invincible . . . And so now we turn to England. How long will this one last - two, three weeks?" (Hermann Goring, June 1940)

:FI:TacticalS!

patch_adams
07-15-2004, 08:31 PM
sorry ill be more specific. IS THE a8 AND A9 VERSION OF THE FW190 AVAILABLE?

Nug01
07-15-2004, 08:36 PM
You have a nice server. I am new to full real and am having a blast flying planes that would normally get picked off quickly and easily if externals were on. I tried your server for the first time today and got 3 kills throughout the night. I was flying a spit and was fired on 3 times by some trigger happy fellow in a stang. He wasn't just after me he fired on at least 2 other spits so I can't hold a grudge. I fired at a fellow as we passed headon and right as I squeezed off the guns, I thought he was a spit. I hit him and felt bad till I looked at the track later and discovered I had been shooting at a 109. Needless to say, I am still trying to decide whether I prefer some sort of icon or nothing at all. It is a whole different sim with nothing- causes the heart to palpatate at times.

steiner562
07-15-2004, 08:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch_adams:
sorry ill be more specific. IS THE a8 AND A9 VERSION OF THE FW190 AVAILABLE?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Why wouldnt they be in the appropiate year and mission&gt;? are they your only preference to fly patch?

http://www.bf109.com/gallery/grayeagle/gallgray01sm.jpg

WTE_Galway
07-15-2004, 09:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TacticalYak3:
Generally one of the better discussions about realism.

I like the suggestion about "inactive" players being able to use externals while active participants remain limited to the cockpit - this has been discussed in the Mission Builders forum in relationship to building/playing campaigns and coops.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This may open up a can of worms as I know IL2 players are a better class of people and all that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BUT the FPS "counterstrike" defaults to no-externals until killed and a lot of counterstrike servers now blocked externals when dead because of clan cheating .. dead guys would lead their mates who were still alive to the enemy over teamspeak.

It may not happen often, but externals once dead does leave the opportunity wide open for squadron based cheating with dead pilots feeding information to the ones still alive.

BennyMoore
07-15-2004, 10:15 PM
Binary Falcon is correct in his post here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BinaryFalcon:
It is NOT actual air combat. As a result, there are quite a few limitations that aren't going to be overcome with anything less than a Level D simulator, and even then, it still wouldn't be perfect. Primarily, the view system sucks. And I'm not just talking about IL2/FB here, which I think has a pretty good system actually. I'm talking about all sims confined to a flat monitor screen with a FOV significantly less than what is naturally seen by the eye. Visual aids such as icons and no cockpit help to overcome these artificial limitations. Again, they're not "full real" either, but they're actually more "full real" than disabling them because they bring your performance level much closer to what you'd be able to achieve in real life by looking around and leaning to the sides in the cockpit, to say nothing of being limited by the resolution restrictions of a computer monitor.

"Full Real" is a joke. "Unrealistically difficult" is more accurate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's what I wrote last night, before he wrote that, but was unable to post.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brimigus:
I gave up on the cockpit only servers because i came to the conclution that it's about the equlivlent of driving down the freeway with one eye closed and looking out the end of a toilet paper roll with the other eye.It's kinda fun but you miss the scenery.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I gave up on the cockpit only servers because it's like flying with myopia with one eye closed and looking out the end of a toilet paper roll with the other eye, while your neck is stuck in a brace and the motor nerves in your neck are also badly damaged.

It's neither natural nor realistic, and while external views give you the unrealistic advantage of always knowing where planes around you are, they also simulate my God given right to keep track of things easily, which "full real" does not!

For the hundredth time, I have several times spotted an aircraft below and behind me or above and behind me in real life and easily kept track of him without any effort whatsoever! Full realism with externals is far more realistic than "full" real, because in real life, keeping track of another aircraft that you're looking at is very damn easy, and a natural thing. It is not an aquired skill!

The only problems with externals is that the cockpit can't possibly get in the way and you always know where everyone is even if you had no clue where they were previously. But that's closer to life that being completely ****ing crippled like in "full" real!

I can't believe you guys don't even accept padlock. Full real with padlock's actually the most realistic option available, although it isn't completely natural like real life headmovement. Still, it takes nowhere near as much getting used to as using the Seizure-O-Matic hat switch. I don't know why some of you guys feel proud of your skill in moving your virtual pilot's head better than others. If this game were realistic about such matters, then that would not be an issue. And yet you cry that you do like realism in such matters. How contrary!

609IAP_Recon
07-15-2004, 10:20 PM
"Originally posted by patch_adams:
sorry ill be more specific. IS THE a8 AND A9 VERSION OF THE FW190 AVAILABLE?"

Leave em out, that will keep him away http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Salute!

S!
Recon
Full Real Virtual Online War: Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com)

IV|JG51_Flatspin
07-15-2004, 10:27 PM
Osiris:

Don't know if you're going to read down this far but here's my 2 cents worth:

It's your server, do whatever you like. People who complain can go elsewhere or start their own servers. Fly what makes you and your mates happy, skroo the rest. It's not your responsibility to try to please everyone.

I enjoy your server, and yes, there are times that I wish it were a little different, no worries.

IV/JG51_Fl@spin
formerly: =Elite=Flatspin
http://img73.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Flatspin/banner.jpg

HellToupee
07-15-2004, 10:30 PM
on full real servers i have lost track of sooo many planes because of fumbling with the hatswitch, with the whole cogpit bars and the difficulty in seeing another aircaft against the ground as soon as you lose sight its terribly difficult to get it back, you could turn around looking when he was just behind that massive struct in the cogpit :P

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

BennyMoore
07-15-2004, 11:11 PM
In addition to that, people claim that the reason aircraft are so hard to spot is that they are camoflaged, and that it is perfectly realistic, even.

This is false. Aircraft that are unpainted polished metal have the same properties as the painted ones.

In addition, things simply are not rendered at all at distances where, in real life, you not only can see them but see them clearly, and identify them generally (you know it's a car or an aircraft and not just a little black dot).

You could have twenty thousand bright green aircraft forming a wall in front of you at a certain distance, and you would not see them in the game, even though you would see nothing but a bright green mass at least in real life. The game just doesn't render them.

I don't see why I should have to explain this. Anyone who has as hard of a time identifying and seeing things in real life as they do in the game seriously needs to switch opticians.

As a matter of fact, I've heard one "full" real guy claim that a pilot told him that it was easier to see things in the game than it is in real life. I told him that I did not believe him, because the Federal Aviation Administration doesn't let people with that bad of vision fly.

BaldieJr
07-15-2004, 11:53 PM
Dearest friends,

"Full Real" is a term that describes difficulty settings within the game. Please update your definition of the term.

You can dislike difficult settings all you want. You can claim it does not emulate reality. You can even demand that someone shoot you in the face when you get shot down.

However, you shall not change the fact that "full real" is indeed "full real", as presented in this piece of graphic evidence:

http://www.fighterjerks.com/REAL.jpg


Please stop this attempt at redefining what "real" is. Lets leave that up to Morpheus.

From now on, I, along with many others, would prefer you to say "I prefer an easy game", as this would be more realistic.

Thanks.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

RedDeth
07-16-2004, 12:04 AM
having spectators in game is THE most idiotic idea yet for FB. i hope it never gets implemented. so you have one guy calling out positions of all the bogeys. yea real intelligent idea . no thanks......DUH

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://66.237.29.231/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/120_1088291823_taylor-greycap.jpg

RedDeth
07-16-2004, 12:08 AM
the term FULLREAL in FB is an oxymoron ...very similar to JUMBOshrimp or militaryintelligence.... fullarcade is unreal too. the middle ground of having the canopy bars invisible to simulate binocular vision and also changing the game engine to make planes in your viewing area MUCH larger would bring it in line with QUOTE fullreallife.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://66.237.29.231/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/120_1088291823_taylor-greycap.jpg

BennyMoore
07-16-2004, 01:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
However, you shall not change the fact that "full real" is indeed "full real", as presented in this piece of graphic evidence
Please stop this attempt at redefining what "real" is.
From now on, I, along with many others, would prefer you to say "I prefer an easy game", as this would be more realistic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drop the condescending attitude.

Say, you're absolutely one hundred percent dead wrong. The fact is that although the game calls it full real - oh, I do not dispute you on that, which is what you seem to be accusing me of - it is not, in fact, realistic, or even more realistic than "full" real with padlock.

Also, don't put words into my mouth. I don't want an easy game. In fact, I want Battle of Britain to be much realistically harder (more rudder, torque, et cetera). However, I do not want a ****ING UNREALISTICALLY HARD game!

You are dead wrong. Real life is far, far easier than "full" real in the game, as far as the view system goes. You are completely worthless as far as I'm concerned if you debate this, because I'm sick of people that insist on debating cold hard damn fact just because... Well, I'm not sure why you do it.

HERE IS A FACT FOR YOU - THE VIEW SYSTEM IN "FULL" REAL IS VERY UNREALISTIC. Even externals is more like real life head movement than "full" real - trust me, I know this from much, much experience.

If you want a "harder than life" game, then be my ****ing guest. But get off your high horse and stop loftily saying that it's realistic and implying that you're better for it. Because, you're wrong on both accounts.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
07-16-2004, 01:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Osirisx9:
This post is meant to generate a serious discussion about the lack of Full Real participation on full real servers. I dont want it to turn into a flame war about arcade versus so called full real.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guys Guys

Cant we all just get along ??

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/planes/signiture3.jpg

Osirisx9
07-16-2004, 03:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tHeBaLrOgRoCkS:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Osirisx9:
This post is meant to generate a serious discussion about the lack of Full Real participation on full real servers. I dont want it to turn into a flame war about arcade versus so called full real.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guys Guys

Cant we all just get along ??

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v323/tHeBaLrOgRoCkS/planes/signiture3.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bump.

RAF238thOsiris

TooCooL34
07-16-2004, 04:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tHeBaLrOgRoCkS:
Cant we all just get along ??

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No. this dead horse is still damn fun. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nanuk66
07-16-2004, 04:44 AM
I think its been said before but the griping point for some is the fact that the 1337 flyers like to call it 'Full real' cause they think it is.

When really all it is is 'Full difficulty' - where the 'real' comes in i have no idea.

-----------------------------
English lesson 101:
The word is 'Lose' not 'Loose'. e.g.
That IL2 is gonna lose the fight against that 109.
That IL2's wing looks loose, its gonna fall off.
If i dive too vertically i will lose my wing. k thx.
------------------------------

FA_Maddog
07-16-2004, 07:13 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BennyMoore:
You are completely worthless as far as I'm concerned if you debate this, because I'm sick of people that insist on debating cold hard damn fact just because... Well, I'm not sure why you do it.

Then QUIT posting if your so sick of others debating you, BM you have posted four times in this thread about full real. If you don't like the settings of a server then fly on to another server. Just because you don't like the settings doesn't mean others don't. I believe we all know that this game isn't real life, and you don't have to tell us what settings we need to use to enjoy it.

TheEngine88
07-16-2004, 10:45 AM
Can I assume that the more smug and superior "full real" pilots only play this game until their virtual pilot is killed? I mean, if you're really so "full real", then once your pilot is killed, you're dead, at least as far as the game is concerned, right? Otherwise, you're not really "full real", are you???

"Pain Fades, Glory lasts forever, Chicks dig scars."

Pentallion
07-16-2004, 11:02 AM
I just thought I'd skip all the replies once I read the original post and sum up for all of you who don't have time to wade through all the BS:

Some reasonable people point out that full real is a misnomer. It is really full difficulty. Full Real Isn't (TM).

Then some uppity smug snob posts that REAL MEN FLY FULL REAL.

Then it pretty much goes downhill from there.

Personally, I wish Birds of Prey server would just go with padlock on or both sides get icons on.

Don't bother flaming me as I won't be back to this post anyways.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

crazyivan1970
07-16-2004, 11:08 AM
Benny i`m watching you http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Hoarmurath
07-16-2004, 11:25 AM
Well pentallion, to be honest, i must say that i prefer padlock with no icons to limited icons. This way it is easier to keep your eyes on your foe in dogfight, but still allow for misidentification... But this is all a matter of personal preference.

For the matter of full real being only full difficulty, yes, let call it maximum immersion so everybody will be happy.

Well, i don't really believe everybody will be happy, there are always people who think that their way of playing is better (and such people exist in the "full real" crowd as well as in the "full fun" crowd). Others will just play the way they most enjoy the game.

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/)

diabloblanco1
07-16-2004, 01:28 PM
May as well add to my post count here too. Is the "debate" over now? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

The Devil made me do it!

609IAP_Recon
07-16-2004, 02:58 PM
if Oleg would shorten pl and fixed the cloud cheat, I'd be for it. (actually, if Oleg would make it adjustable via server settings).

maybe 1km padlock.

3km is way too far to get insta lockon.

But - I think servers need to have different settings for different people - I just hope they stay balanced. I like the full real, but understand other wanting more arcade settings. It's a personal decision.

Salute!

S!
Recon
Full Real Virtual Online War: Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com)

aGunfighter
07-16-2004, 04:16 PM
Air-starts at 5000m seems to me to be worth experimenting with. I'm pretty tired of tree-top level fights. Totally ridiculous, I think.
Still land to collect points though.

609IAP_Recon
07-16-2004, 05:03 PM
agreed.

A major aspect of ww2 in europe is neglected because if the b17's played a larger role at high altitudes as they did in ww2, we'd have a different type of atmosphere in FB.

aircraft that can get up faster, perform better at higher altitudes, will play a bigger role.

I've felt that if we had near the number of flak guns in large cities, you'd be forced to fly higher - otherwise it would be too dangerous. But currently you can't have too many or it degrades system performance.

These are all issues with the engine itself.

I think a conversation on these sort of issues are more about 'full real' than nitpicking about the things we do in these forums. My chief concern with BoB is that it will be more of FB with better graphics. I think it's time 1C started looking at immersion and helping to create more 'realistic' gameplay environments and/or better tools so the community can.

Salute!

S!
Recon
Full Real Virtual Online War: Forgotten Skies (http://www.forgottenskies.com)

Dnmy
07-16-2004, 05:12 PM
3km too far to lock on?

come on... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

In FB, not using padlock at all i can lockon dots at 10+km away (with the trackIR) either above or below my horizon.

So if i can do that without padlock it should be possible with padlock as well.

Doesn't make sense to restrict the padlock range to 1 km. That means padlock breaks when the target is well visible. Only it can't be tracked because it's just out of padlock range. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

The padlock should be able to do the same things i can do with my trackIR. And as it stands there are more unrealistic limitations WRT padlock in FB then there are with trackIR.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"