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The-Grey-Night
01-31-2017, 11:11 PM
First of all I must mention what an innovative great game For Honor is. I played the Alpha, technical test and Beta and it was always heartbreaking when the servers shut down.
I never experienced anything compared to this combat- system. But I do see some issues that will definitely cause trouble in the future- and thatís seen from an objective perspective and not the common (what i read a lot in this forum so far) Ąthis is op cause i cannot handle itď. I do remember that, back then in the alpha I pointed out exactly the same issues. Although I focused on specific classes I managed to try, at least for some matches, all classes. The following is what i figured out for myself; but also from what others noticed. I will also try to add suggestions to change these (in my opinion) issues.

Guard Break

You read a lot about this being op and too fast, cannot handle etc.
I do not felt like it was too hard nor too easy to counter this, although I have to mention that experienced players tend to spam it, which is really getting annoying. - maybe a dynamic cooldown?

The real issue about guard break was that you sometimes run into situations where you really cannot handle it. Keyexamples to me are parrying, Berserkers deflect and, with some classes, especially with Orochi when an enemy blocks one of your light attacks and he immediately guard breaks- you simply cannot counter it. Which always result into free guard breaks- and guard breaks are such a sick mechanic, which can end the game in one move when the environment is given; at least it will grant a free heavy swing- which is also too much for an auto punishment.
-> this just leads to the following conclusion: Attacking (or to better refering to the combats mechanics behavior: taking initiative) is more of a risk than defending- which will result in inaction. Being punished for taking initiative instead of making mistakes cannot be the way to go.

Parrying

I kind of pointed that out already. Itís the same problem with the guard break. Besides loosing a really noteable amount of stamina you are unconscious against a free guard break or a heavy swing- which in my opinion is huge. Just leading into the reactive play as you are getting auto punished that hard. There shouldnít be a reactive play you cannot offer a reaction to.
-> the knockback of the parry is too huge- for a move that isnít that hard granting such a tremendously reward. the stamina drain and reversing the initiative should be more you be grateful about.

Side dashes with attack in one motion

I do understand the critics here. It doesnít offers any space for a counter reaction. On the other hand, it doesnít inflict much damage and can be dangerous for the assassins as well, when you just feint an attack into parry or guard break.
The only thing i would suggest to change is letting a really small window for blocking it, as a fair deal to the other classes.

Deflects

In my opinion deflects work quiet well now regarding risk and reward compared to the alpha. The Ąfreeď damage isnít tremendously, especially compared to the risk you run. The only deflect standing out is the Berserkerís, which is, as already noted above a huge no-go in my opinion. -> a small push back/stun would be enough for that.

Classes

With Raider and Kensei I experienced well balanced matches, against or with. They both provide various options and have space to act and react, without any outstanding mechanics.

Orochi I played the most. When against an experienced enemy it was super hard and I very often saw no chance to win (especially when they just waited for an attack to counter it- maybe because they didnít see any other choice). It was pretty funny and overall didnít seem to stand out like in the alpha. The only thing too punishing was the storm rush, that when timed was unavoidable and resulted in a double top tap- which is really too much Ąfreeď damage. The stun after the successful storm rush has to be reduced.


Peacekeeper is a really interessting and strong design in the mechanics. Did enjoy playing her most of the time itís a really challenge to fit the right timing of the moves. Especially that the stabs in the side when guard breaking can actually be blocked is quiet funny. Overall she benefits from all upsides of the assassins, but doesnít really have a weakness, since speed is (and always will be) the dominating basis for realtime games. And regarding that, sheís a bit too fast.


The Berserker is compared to the other assassins fairly slow but in exchange hits pretty hard. Heís overall very solid and oriented on aggression. The only thing I donít like (I mentioned before) is the free guard break from deflects- itís just too strong for such a mechanic.


Especially in the alpha I enjoyed the Warden. Good viability and heavy hits- pretty solid. After playing for a while and agains other classes having a big range of movesets available you notice at some point that you are looking for an option to attack or defend which actually doesnít exist- you simply leak options to act which quickly leads into passive play.
-> maybe an interaction with the bash can help; adding an unblockable heavy after a successful bash for example.

note: I did experience some infinite combos with guard break -> heavy side -> bash -> and again. Or was it just me that actually couldnít do a **** about that?



Warlord isÖ yeah, pretty damn solid. I think itís a bit too good. Very strong defense; trading heavy hits and parries into head but makes this an allrounder in reacting to each situation. I did see a lot of people and tried myself abusing the head butt and just spamming it over and over. Especially the ability to perform it in an instant out of full block stance makes it super difficult to counter. And the tracking is ridiculous.
-> The head butt needs a cooldown, the range should be reduced or the link to other mechanics reworked.


I actually didnít play Conqueror, so I cannot give a reliable analysis about balance here. I just noticed that there were people playing it really well. Especially the ability to break enemies chains on block is very strong.
The problem of the bash into guard break chain does count here as well as for the Warden- itís too beneficial for a simple combo chain and I did see itís getting abused as an infinite.


About the Nobushi I wonít say much except that itís totally broken. She has one of the voluminous moveset repertoir. She can everything the other classes can and does them even better. If you werenít born as a god at parrying, she keeps you at bay while annoying you literally to death- and thatís one of the scenarios wherein you actually cannot do anything as a Warden.
-> Definitly needs nerf

Trenk2009
02-01-2017, 03:06 AM
Hey mate.

The thing is most of the thing you argue about being a bit too strong are made in the game that way.

If someone managed to get the timing to parry your blow then the fact that he can link up a guard break is normal in my opinion, since the parrying mechanism is a high-risk high reward one. If that wasn't the case, and parrying would only drain more stamina, I think it will simply become useless, since then simply blocking a whole combo gives the same result while being way safer.
If the opponent in front of you is good enough to parry each of your blow then you'll have to use feints in order to mess him up. Overall that seems fair to me since missing a parry can really **** you up, especially if trying to parry a heav attack.

To then continue with the Berserker; here again I don't get your point. The deflect is also, just like parrying, a high-risk high-reward mechanic of the game ESPECIALLY if you try to deflect an blow coming from the top since missing automatically mean getting hit.
Plus, when you think about it, the berserker result of deflecting is completely logic considering his harassing kit ! Compared to other more "I'll wait for your mistake to get a chance to quickly punish you hard" type of assassins, the berserker have to contiuely attack you in order to be effecient in battle since his strikes are overall slower than other assasin's.
Plus, when fighting a berserker, it is your responsabilty to not be a place of the map where environment can kill you instantly.

Overall, all your complaints are purely suggestive since you find that parrying and deflecting aren't hard when I think it actually is.

To continue quit quickly :

- I don't think, considering her kit, that the peacekeeper is to quick. Dodging isn't a question of speed: we are in a video games, it's a mechanic. Which mean that simply dodging to confuse your opponent isn't somthing that can work, and dodging mindlessly doesn't mean no attacks can touch you since, unlike real life, bad-timed dodges lead to the opponent's attack following you to hit you. And conserning her attack speed, even tho some can argue that her light attacks are a bit too fast, firt of all I don't really think so, I mean when compared to those of the Orochi it's almost the same, and then, even if they were a bit faster they really dont deal a lot of damage, especially considerin she only haves 2 hits combos.

- The Orochi is balanced. Considering how hard it is to time the storm rush even when not fighting top tier player, I think nerfing him would result in killing him.

- Agree with you about the warden, the raider and kensei. (To not get infinit combo by the warden you had to simply counter his 2nd gaurd break cuz she's obvously coming, or dodge the bash, same with the conqeror) (Plus i would like to say that this "infinite" combo still requieres some skill from the player to perfom it corectly so not every warden or conqeror can do it on a regular basis)

- Agree too to say that the warlord is a bit to strong since he doesn't have any real counter character. When well-played he can basically win against everyone since he can do everything (harras, control, hit hard, defend, hit fast, good jumping range, long combos, huge life pool). But i still don't think he need that much of a nerf, maybe a bit less jumping range considering his weight, or a bit less health. But overall I think fighting him is still fair since he's not that easy to play.

- Finally, as a peacekeeper main, I didn't had any hard time with the Nobushi. However, I can understand that slower characters might find her a bit overpowered since to counter her most basic spammy play style, you need to parry her if you are not playing a shielded character. Would I say that she's broken, definetely not. Would i say that she's easy to play ? Hell yeah. (By easy to play I mean that you'll need to faced a quite "ok" opponent to get really in a bad situation; becasue mechanicly speaking she's clearly the most complex one, followed up by the warlord)

Karthod
02-01-2017, 05:54 AM
Guard Break

You read a lot about this being op and too fast, cannot handle etc.
I do not felt like it was too hard nor too easy to counter this, although I have to mention that experienced players tend to spam it, which is really getting annoying. - maybe a dynamic cooldown?



From what I've seen, the more experienced players tend to punish players for spamming guard break rather than doing it themselves.

The-Grey-Night
02-01-2017, 12:48 PM
If someone managed to get the timing to parry your blow then the fact that he can link up a guard break is normal in my opinion, since the parrying mechanism is a high-risk high reward one. If that wasn't the case, and parrying would only drain more stamina, I think it will simply become useless, since then simply blocking a whole combo gives the same result while being way safer.
If the opponent in front of you is good enough to parry each of your blow then you'll have to use feints in order to mess him up. Overall that seems fair to me since missing a parry can really **** you up, especially if trying to parry a heav attack

I can't get your point here. Where is parrying a high risk/high reward mechanism. It does even show you an indicator when to parry. It's just so easy to do and there is no real risk when you do it too late- you just block. It's almost no risk into huge reward which leads to passive play- I do see that comming.

Dude_of_Valor
02-01-2017, 03:57 PM
I can't get your point here. Where is parrying a high risk/high reward mechanism. It does even show you an indicator when to parry. It's just so easy to do and there is no real risk when you do it too late- you just block. It's almost no risk into huge reward which leads to passive play- I do see that comming.

Ah but if you parry to soon you just attack into their action and thus you get hit.

The thing I love about the game is that for every question there seems to be an answer, and for every answer there seems to be a question. Much like fighting with real swords.

Having played the last Beta, I found people were often not patient enough and thus would make many mistakes.

The key in this game in my eyes is be patient and unpredictable.

For example the Nobushi loves to counter attack. Well you have to either draw that counter in (and move out of distance), close in on them (but not to fast) or draw them into the attack.

Now the Vanguard class are the best all rounders, however if you pick the other classes you become strong in one discipline and weaker in another. Thus making a trade off.

Overall I felt all the classes were equally balanced, which was a lovely feeling when playing the game.

The-Grey-Night
02-02-2017, 11:22 AM
Ah but if you parry to soon you just attack into their action and thus you get hit. -> 1.

The thing I love about the game is that for every question there seems to be an answer, and for every answer there seems to be a question. Much like fighting with real swords. -> 2.

For example the Nobushi loves to counter attack. Well you have to either draw that counter in (and move out of distance), close in on them (but not to fast) or draw them into the attack. -> 3.

1. You actually won't parry too soon.
2. About the question/answer cycle: Thats exactly what I'm trying to point out: there are the right answers, but these answers cannot be answered. A parry is an answer, that won't allow another answer.

3. that's also what I just mentioned: Move into distance from a Nobushi??? And the second point is when you wait to draw them into attack is, what I also already told, the way the game runs into passive play where people just stare at each other waiting for the opponent to go, since attacking (so taking initiative) is always a disadvantage.

Trenk2009
02-05-2017, 11:36 PM
1. You actually won't parry too soon.

Da*** are u talking about mate. You're probably the only person I've talk with about For Honor that says that you are more likely going to parry to late instead of too early.
In 85% of the case, when me or my friends missed a parry, it's because we pressed the attack to early ...

CaptainPwnet
02-06-2017, 08:57 AM
His points about parrying are valid and also hold true for deflecting as well. You literally have a quick time event prompt on screen for when to parry. It honestly isn't that hard once you force yourself into the mindset to just do them.

Even if parries/deflects were more difficult to do then they would still be too strong as you get a rather heavy punish for playing defensively and waiting for your opponent to attack. This is just bad game design that rewards passivity too much up to the point where attacking at all becomes too much of a risk. Fights will turn into a waiting game of whoever wants to foolishly risk the attack first.

Personally I don't think any damage should be awarded for these options. In the case of parries the stamina damage and the advantage you gain afterwards is reward enough. Deflects though should probably be reworked in some way. Although since the assassins don't have any unblockables like other classes it could be ok as long as the damage reward is kept small. But I would still be skeptical if it would be a good idea to be able to get free damage off deflects, cause even if it's minimal it still promotes the same unbalanced passive play I talked about before where attacking becomes too much of a risk.

Not to mention you can't actually parry bait or anything with how strict and early the feint window is. You have to feint the attack long before the defender has to block or parry which makes feinting into whatever mixup only marginally better than just doing it raw against experienced players.

Peligrad
02-06-2017, 03:42 PM
Yeah, the deflect mechanics are pretty silly IMO.

Overhead deflects are roughly on par in terms of risk/reward, but side dodge deflect attempts are practically free.

Side dodges avoid many attacks as it is. Giving them additional defense that lead to free damage is the main reason why assassins are too strong at the moment.

Especially since every assassin also has a side attack in addition, dodging just becomes too powerful of a tool for assassins to the point where their blocking disadvantage is way offset.

It leads to characters that are just as strong defensively as the defensively oriented characters but that are way more mobile and can apply much more pressure and damage when they find openings.

Orochi is especially ridiculous because he has great dodge options, great disengage options, and he has a hugely disproportional amount of ways to finish people off with an execution which is extremely important in Brawl, and both 4v4 formats.

(reviving could use a considerable nerf as well. revive should give back 40% of your max hp, not 100% and it should take considerably longer.)

Kroma-
02-07-2017, 02:38 AM
I agree with you guys that parrying give a lot reward for playing defensive, i think reflect is more balance since the dmg is equal to a dodge attack so either you deflect or you place a dodge attack ( except berserker tho ). But dodge can be easily punished with GB.
If we nerf parry dmg, lets say instead of a GB you can secure a light attack only. Assassin will never parry because dodge will always be better. Trying to parry will be almost worthless, better using a charge + light hit for the others classes.
I think the best is to increase the difficulty to achieve a parry. As someone previously said, by increasing the feint window which is really too short right now, you should be able to feint until the parry window, which is not the case atm ( if i m not mistaken ).

Aside of that, i think the game is pretty well balance in his general mechanics.

The-Grey-Night
02-07-2017, 09:48 AM
His points about parrying are valid and also hold true for deflecting as well. You literally have a quick time event prompt on screen for when to parry. It honestly isn't that hard once you force yourself into the mindset to just do them.

Even if parries/deflects were more difficult to do then they would still be too strong as you get a rather heavy punish for playing defensively and waiting for your opponent to attack. This is just bad game design that rewards passivity too much up to the point where attacking at all becomes too much of a risk. Fights will turn into a waiting game of whoever wants to foolishly risk the attack first.

Personally I don't think any damage should be awarded for these options. In the case of parries the stamina damage and the advantage you gain afterwards is reward enough. Deflects though should probably be reworked in some way. Although since the assassins don't have any unblockables like other classes it could be ok as long as the damage reward is kept small. But I would still be skeptical if it would be a good idea to be able to get free damage off deflects, cause even if it's minimal it still promotes the same unbalanced passive play I talked about before where attacking becomes too much of a risk.

Not to mention you can't actually parry bait or anything with how strict and early the feint window is. You have to feint the attack long before the defender has to block or parry which makes feinting into whatever mixup only marginally better than just doing it raw against experienced players.

Thank you, sir, for understanding and explaining what I meant. I thought I am the only one around here.




1. You actually won't parry too soon.

Da*** are u talking about mate. You're probably the only person I've talk with about For Honor that says that you are more likely going to parry to late instead of too early.
In 85% of the case, when me or my friends missed a parry, it's because we pressed the attack to early ...

You are being totally subjective. That I am the only person you can refer to, doesn't mean I miss the point. It's actually your fault when you parry 85% of the time too early.
What I have seen so far is, that people manage to master parry within the days of the closed beta, which made it, of course, extremely powerful when even the fastest attacks got parried and even feinting wouldn't confuse them. So when it pops up within the very small window of the beta compared to the long term goal they are after, it's kind of obligatory that there has to be made a change.

Yggdrasil_67
02-07-2017, 09:10 PM
From what I've seen, the more experienced players tend to punish players for spamming guard break rather than doing it themselves.
Oh man it was hilarious positioning somone to have their back on a ledge and have them try to throw you down only to repel the grab and watch them fall instead.