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View Full Version : Table of Moves Punishable by Guard Break on Block - All Beta Matchups



QuiGonJones
01-29-2017, 12:39 AM
Hello Warriors,

Just did a whole bunch of testing with a buddy on what moves are unsafe. And by unsafe I mean that when the move is Blocked, the defender can do an uninterruptible Guard Break on the attacker. This does not include Parries or Deflects.

We will be making some gifs/videos in the near future to show this off visually, but wanted to get the info out there for everyone trying to up their game.

Link to the Google Sheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iZXPu8RkGvsbr-5W4xMIfzgB7z-PZPtfc7kUcacIkWk/edit?usp=sharing)

Altair_Snake
01-29-2017, 12:19 PM
Great job!!!

Durlekz
02-01-2017, 09:08 PM
Holy crud. Looks like berserker gets the short end of the stick! xD

TCTF_SWAT
02-01-2017, 09:18 PM
Hmmmm not buying it seems sketchy. I'll see for myself come feb 9th.

Kintoun
02-01-2017, 09:28 PM
Hmmmm not buying it seems sketchy. I'll see for myself come feb 9th.

Your basis for rejecting empirical data is "seems sketchy"? It's not like this is hard to test.

TCTF_SWAT
02-01-2017, 10:14 PM
Your basis for rejecting empirical data is "seems sketchy"? It's not like this is hard to test.

Because when in doubt. Do it yourself. And I have doubts. Plus I already stated "I'll see for myself on feb 9th."

The-Grey-Night
02-02-2017, 06:45 PM
That's actually a true thing and it needs to be changed- free GB after block, common...

vennstrom.
02-07-2017, 01:57 PM
This is now the best thread in this forum.
You, Sir, are a scholar and a gentleman.

Also Conqueror getting free guardbreaks left right and center is rather concerning.

EetDrinkBeBerry
02-07-2017, 02:37 PM
This is now the best thread in this forum.
You, Sir, are a scholar and a gentleman.

Also Conqueror getting free guardbreaks left right and center is rather concerning.

Technically, the Conqueror's light attack should only be unsafe vs another Conqueror, being that his light chain is infinite so the second swing goes through opponents guard-break. That is, if he is a decent Conqueror :]

Peligrad
02-07-2017, 04:06 PM
This table doesn't seem right at all...

Or maybe the verbiage is just off...

Is this saying that any character can get a free guardbreak against the berserker and conqueror off any blocked light attack?

And the conqueror can get a free guardbreak off any blocked heavy from any class?

Because I played conqueror during the beta and never once did someone abuse this flaw in conqueror design against me.

Also, even if it is true that the conqueror does get free guard breaks against blocked heavies (and I'd need to see this to believe it), conqueror guard breaks are pretty unrewarding. They only get a free light side attack compared to say orochi who gets a free overhead heavy.

It certainly isn't enough to convince me to play conqueror over warlord for preferred heavy.

CaptainPwnet
02-07-2017, 04:21 PM
All of this needs to be changed if true. So zerker is literally the worst character in the game cause of what feels like unintended bugs?

EetDrinkBeBerry
02-07-2017, 05:23 PM
This table doesn't seem right at all...

Or maybe the verbiage is just off...

Is this saying that any character can get a free guardbreak against the berserker and conqueror off any blocked light attack?

And the conqueror can get a free guardbreak off any blocked heavy from any class?

Because I played conqueror during the beta and never once did someone abuse this flaw in conqueror design against me.

Also, even if it is true that the conqueror does get free guard breaks against blocked heavies (and I'd need to see this to believe it), conqueror guard breaks are pretty unrewarding. They only get a free light side attack compared to say orochi who gets a free overhead heavy.

It certainly isn't enough to convince me to play conqueror over warlord for preferred heavy.

I mained Conqueror and do remember guard breaking after most blocked heavies. It didn't feel like it was 100%, but I can't really recall. Conqueror brings that interrupt block and longer chains/mix up over Warlord. Warlord can close the gap a lot faster and get in your face. Conqueror side light leads into his double light, heavy, shield bash ad-naseum chain.

Aarpian2
02-07-2017, 06:16 PM
This table doesn't seem right at all...

Or maybe the verbiage is just off...

Is this saying that any character can get a free guardbreak against the berserker and conqueror off any blocked light attack?

And the conqueror can get a free guardbreak off any blocked heavy from any class?

Because I played conqueror during the beta and never once did someone abuse this flaw in conqueror design against me.

Also, even if it is true that the conqueror does get free guard breaks against blocked heavies (and I'd need to see this to believe it), conqueror guard breaks are pretty unrewarding. They only get a free light side attack compared to say orochi who gets a free overhead heavy.

It certainly isn't enough to convince me to play conqueror over warlord for preferred heavy.

You can guarantee a side heavy with conq off a guard break (which does exactly the same damage as an overhead).

Peligrad
02-07-2017, 08:21 PM
You can guarantee a side heavy with conq off a guard break (which does exactly the same damage as an overhead).

I'm pretty sure this is not true as long as you aren't thrown into a wall. I'm 99% sure on this.

I'm trying to find verification, but having trouble.

I know for fact that isn't true on shield slam, only a side light is guaranteed.

I'm fairly certain that the recovery time for guard break and shield slam is the same.

Peligrad
02-07-2017, 08:26 PM
I mained Conqueror and do remember guard breaking after most blocked heavies. It didn't feel like it was 100%, but I can't really recall. Conqueror brings that interrupt block and longer chains/mix up over Warlord. Warlord can close the gap a lot faster and get in your face. Conqueror side light leads into his double light, heavy, shield bash ad-naseum chain.

Conq chains are pretty easy to stop if you know the mechanics though.

Conq is forced to change directions every hit to keep his chain. So if he goes right then you know the next one is top or left.

And if he goes heavy attack you know he's going to go for another heavy or a shield bash.
After second heavy he can only go shield bash or cease attacking.

Anyone who knows the character can shut down his offense pretty easily because he doesn't have many options.

EetDrinkBeBerry
02-07-2017, 08:52 PM
Conq chains are pretty easy to stop if you know the mechanics though.

Conq is forced to change directions every hit to keep his chain. So if he goes right then you know the next one is top or left.

And if he goes heavy attack you know he's going to go for another heavy or a shield bash.
After second heavy he can only go shield bash or cease attacking.

Anyone who knows the character can shut down his offense pretty easily because he doesn't have many options.

Right. I wasn't trying to say he wasn't easy to figure his patterns out, he just plays a lot different than Warlord. Warlord definitely has a better 1v1 game, but the Conqueror in Dominion or any mode when surrounded is a beast. ;]

Peligrad
02-07-2017, 10:03 PM
Right. I wasn't trying to say he wasn't easy to figure his patterns out, he just plays a lot different than Warlord. Warlord definitely has a better 1v1 game, but the Conqueror in Dominion or any mode when surrounded is a beast. ;]

My favorite thing about conq in dominion was definitely the running shield crush. It's pretty helpful when someone gets revenge against your team.

Also pretty fun to running shield crush people off the map.

Shugoki and Lawbringer also look to have some token crowd control moves that I'm looking forward to trying out.

CaptainPwnet
02-08-2017, 01:43 AM
I'm surprised there isn't more talk about how broken this is, If this is all true then that means conq and zerker are almost literally unplayable at high level or all levels whenever this information becomes more widely known.. Zerker especially, so every time zerk or conq do a light attack and it's blocked they give up a free GB into whatever(most commonly heavy). That risk vs reward is so unbalanced and out of whack.

Parries are bad enough but there are attacks that allow for the same punish with no effort aside from regular blocking? This can't be intended at all and needs to be changed.

NoGround
02-08-2017, 02:36 AM
I'm most concerned about Berserker. It literally makes no sense that they can't at least Light Attack without uninterruptable guard breaks hitting them.

Panty_Ninja
02-08-2017, 02:43 AM
These stats are very concerning. It makes defensive play the best option. Pretty soon players will just hover around each other, never attacking...

NoGround
02-08-2017, 04:59 AM
These stats are very concerning. It makes defensive play the best option. Pretty soon players will just hover around each other, never attacking...

That's what Feints and Body Attacks are for.

CaptainPwnet
02-08-2017, 05:07 AM
That's what Feints and Body Attacks are for.

Not exactly true, in theory you are correct and this is probably how UBI tried to design it but the reality is quite a bit different. Some soft feints are pretty good but not all characters have them. Regular hard feints aren't very useful at higher lvls of play, also again most of the unblockables are very easy to dodge with some exceptions obviously(WL headbutt, Conq shield bash, warden shoulde rbash cause he can feint it and catch dodges with GB. etc) and again not all characters have any unblockables much less good ones.

As for feints, the feint widnow is so strict and early in the startup of the heavy that as the defender you don't have to react to block or parry it at all since the window where you feint and the window where you block/parry is so far apart. It makes feinting into whatever mixup only marginally more difficult to deal with.

All this free GB on block stuff is not only unbalanced and most likely unintended, but in the case of zerk it makes the class almost unplayable at higher lvls of play.

Parries in the game are already unbalanced with the ridiculous reward they offer and makes attacking very risky. This promotes a very passive, counter based wait and see style of play where better players won't ever want to attack first because it's too great of a risk. But if all you have to do is block normally to get a free uncounterable GB then this is even worse than parries and will destroy any serious competition or balance at higher lvls of play. Free GB>heavy just for something so simple and easy as blocking an attack? Like come on, that's beyond stupidly unbalanced.

TBH though as far as what's show in the chart the only 3 that really matter much are conq and zerker light attacks as well as kensei side dash attacks. At higher lvl's of play it is quite rare to see a heavy actually be used in a way that it would get blocked in the first place since they are mainly used for feints and guaranteed punishes. But having a light attack that gets you punished on block is very crippling.

nestharus
02-10-2017, 11:20 AM
That table is no longer up to date as of OBT. I can no longer simply block an R1 attack from a conquerer and then go into an uninterruptible grab against the level 3 bots. They cancel it every time.

I think the window for cancel guard break was widened. I find it much, much easier to cancel guard break in OBT.


Some of my guard breaks after parries are also getting tech'd.

Altair_Snake
02-10-2017, 02:59 PM
I think I saw one or two cases of post parry GBs being tech'ed, too. But I wonder if it was because I delayed them a bit.

Jaynans
02-10-2017, 09:17 PM
I just started learning Berserker and if this exists at release I will unhappily quit the class forever. LOL I'd have to start chain attacks with Heavy everytime or feint like a doofus.

vennstrom.
02-11-2017, 02:03 PM
I think I saw one or two cases of post parry GBs being tech'ed, too. But I wonder if it was because I delayed them a bit.

so it's not just me huh?
it suddenly started yesterday and then kept happening constantly.
if this stays, I might just bite the bullet and join the Peacecancer, since parries are basically my only viable counterplay vs good ones atm, and if you don't even get anything after landing one, it's just too much.

Velkamit
02-12-2017, 04:21 AM
I'm most concerned about Berserker. It literally makes no sense that they can't at least Light Attack without uninterruptable guard breaks hitting them.


I've played a ton of berserker this beta and have noticed it. Its awful.

thewalkingkane
02-12-2017, 11:03 AM
Because when in doubt. Do it yourself. And I have doubts. Plus I already stated "I'll see for myself on feb 9th."

When in doubt, use alternative facts*