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anarchy52
09-01-2004, 06:31 AM
Can someone explain please?

http://marvin.kset.org/~riddler/mk108.ntrk

1) explain how did the first P-38 survive mk108 bombardment
2) why do 13mm rounds bounce off P-38 engines

P.S. It was not either lag or cheating

anarchy52
09-01-2004, 06:31 AM
Can someone explain please?

http://marvin.kset.org/~riddler/mk108.ntrk

1) explain how did the first P-38 survive mk108 bombardment
2) why do 13mm rounds bounce off P-38 engines

P.S. It was not either lag or cheating

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2004, 10:54 AM
Well, most of the shots just flat out missed. You can see some of them exploding below. It does seem that Mk108 rounds can go sideways at times, missing where there's no way they should miss.

However, there was one hit early on, dead into the left nacelle that had me scratching my head. A strike like that usually detaches the tail boom.

The only explanation I can think of is packet loss. It can be true that although the connection is not bad enough to show warping or viffing, it can lose the critical packet that should say, "Dude...your left tail boom just went into the slipstream".

The only other thing i can think of is, due to the dead 6 angle, the shell did not penetrate the nacelle, but merely skipped along it, exploding outside and not doing catastrophic damage. I believe the shot did draw smoke from the engine, didn't it?

The Mk108 needs a good entry angle to ensure that it explodes INSIDE the object it hits; that's where it does it's big damage.

BBB_Hyperion
09-01-2004, 11:19 AM
Well i counted at least 3 mk108 hits . The other player had a ping of 80 ms . At least 1 of the hits should have been deadly ,the tail hit.

Another example for mk108 undermodeled or netcode still not used to packet loss.

Thats what i find even more disturbing with mg151/20 online. It was better so its a netcode or dm problem that was fixed in the past.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

F19_Ob
09-01-2004, 12:26 PM
A part of the explanation is that they were edge-hits wich makes the explosion go off outside the plane.
In arcademode with normal tracks u can watch the shrapnel-arrows on 30mm cannon. although it has more arrows than the 20mm, a large portion may still not hit the plane or vital parts. This will also explain the hits on the boom.
Other than that the p38 has a particulary sparse visual skin damage and its normally shot down with minor or no visual damage on the skin.


Perhaps my earlier post about ACTUAL and VISUAL damage will give a few more ideas or explanations.
here's a link:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=949108326

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

anarchy52
09-01-2004, 03:19 PM
@Stiglr
Yeah I shot terribly (ashamed), but in the end I scored hits:
First P-38 got 6 mk108 hits (watched in slow motion), it did not look like it affected the aircrafts handling too much that's what bothers me. Even if rounds did not explode inside which would probably cause catastrophic damage they should damage the skin, twist metal which would affect attacked aircraft. I don't want to luftwhine but even a single .50cal in the wing of Bf-109/FW-190 can greatly affect the aircrafts handling (especially 190 which is not too easy to fly to begin with). *plink* and the wing drops.

Second P-38, best viewed from his perspective (I shot a bit better this time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) got rudder shot off and quite a few hits on the engine section (around 50 if I recall correctly, all 13mm). You all know what a single .50 cal does to Bf109 engine...
Just does not seem right.

P.S. I bet I would not have problems if I had 20mm hispano...but that's another story for which I do not have the track (for courious: I killed 3 FW-190's with 16 total hits from SpitMkIX .50cal and 20mm included, one of the FW's broke in half)

[This message was edited by anarchy52 on Wed September 01 2004 at 02:36 PM.]

XyZspineZyX
09-01-2004, 04:26 PM
I also bet you wouldn't have had any problems with a HS 20mm. I'm in full agreement there.

You just point those in the general direction of a plane and it's like a "gimme" in golf.

Instant oil leak, spray all over the cockpit and catastrophic damage from a 1/8 second burst.

VMF513_Sandman
09-02-2004, 03:10 PM
not dissin the 30mm, but seems that the stock 20mm is more accurate and alot more deadly than the 108 for dead 6's. maybe it would be better to save the 108 for bombers. the recoil alone would make it almost impossible to score a good hit in rl. ur talkin about a 5 pound shell dude..a hell of alotta recoil, but god help anything it hits

Fehler
09-02-2004, 03:43 PM
5 pounds? Who on earth thinks that a 30mm round is a five-pounder? Maybe if it was a main naval gun.

330 grams is what the 30mm HE round weighed. That's .7 pounds. The whole round weighed a little over a pound per round including cartridge and powder.

Here is a good link about the MK108

http://www.luft46.com/armament/mk108.html

You might want to note the sentence about the lack of substantial recoil when the gun was fired. (something this sim models incorrectly)

VMF513_Sandman
09-02-2004, 03:46 PM
mah bad...that's what i get for not proof-readin http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Fehler
09-02-2004, 03:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF513_Sandman:
mah bad...that's what i get for not proof-readin http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, after reading what I typed, I have to appologize. It looked like I had a mean air about me, but what I was really wanting to say was that this weapon was really a nice piece of equipment. Not great for fighters, IMHO, but devastating against bombers.

I really think the 20mm was the preferred dogfighter gun for the Germans. The 30's were for the bigger birds. I think the 30mm trajectory is too flat in this game at distance as well, but hey, who am I anyways.. LOL

WWMaxGunz
09-02-2004, 06:12 PM
.50's fire in waves instead of streams. Too many bullets for singles so you
get packets. If they miss you, you don't care or notice but if they hit you
say it was just one when it was many at once. I watched many .50's in slow
motion and sustained fire just over a target is when I saw this. On hits it
was damage in waves, not steady one after the other. That reduces ability to
fire a stream and cross a target or have the target cross the stream. It is
a mix of blessing and hurt for the target plane depending on passing between
the waves or not. Packet of .50's is like a cannon maybe from just one .50
gun. When many hit at once, it's the devastation people write of in shock.
Framerate would suffer badly with so many single bullets fired so I don't ask
for a fix much as I'd like one just to strongly improve chances of some hits
on deflection shots. I like firing short streams, better at longer range.


Neal

anarchy52
09-03-2004, 04:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
I really think the 20mm was the preferred dogfighter gun for the Germans. The 30's were for the bigger birds.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, historically 20mm was quite sufficient weapon against fighters, 30mm has lower muzzle velocity, ROF and trajectory was not very good. It was a close range weapon.

But in the game, mk108 is the weapon of choice only because MG151/20 is weak compared to other similar weapons in game. Together with allied planes being much tougher, it makes MG151/20 less desirable then the mk108 grenade launcher.

I remember a recent mission: teammate & me shot down 3 'stangs. One had structural failure, PK & engine kill after recieving a 2 sec burst of 4*20 + 2*13 (FW-190A6) from almost 90deg above. The other two got engine kills. According to user stat my teammate scored 124 hits, while I scored 118 hits. Those 3 'stangs were the only aircrafts we shot at.

I'm not talking history, I'm talking about FB, you know - the game.

WWMaxGunz
09-03-2004, 05:13 AM
Congratulations on holding fire on target 2 complete seconds at such a
phenomenal deflection angle for so much time! May I ask of the start
and end ranges approximately? Normally at near 90 degree deflection
there is only timing for the briefest amount of hits. That shot is the
sign of an RBJ level Ace!

-------------

anarchy52
09-03-2004, 05:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Congratulations on holding fire on target 2 complete seconds at such a
phenomenal deflection angle for so much time! May I ask of the start
and end ranges approximately?
-------------<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Start range around 150-200m, end range 50 or even less, he did a sharp pull up, probably tried a stall turn, I had more speed at about the same altitude. He was hanging on its prop, I fired a long burst at the tip of his nose, and most of it hit him between nose, cockpit and right wing (impressive light show). The engine, stopped, PK and right wing broke off.

No way I could get a 2 sec burst in a vertical dive or turn.

And who is that RBJ character? Heard a lot of mention of his name, mostly in negative context...