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View Full Version : Lack of Dueling in Duel



whovie
12-29-2016, 09:14 PM
From my time with the alpha and watching the recent vids that have been posted one thing I noticed is the abundance of environmental deaths and opportunities for non combat related deaths. While I think they should be there to an extent because combat requires situational awareness. I don't think it should be so prevalent. In the alpha it seemed less about the moves and skill of a character and more about who got an uncountered guard break first. Vanguards would just spam guard break from the start just to throw you and from what ive seen on vids many peoples strategy is to still just throw the opponent off.

Id like to see dueling be more about player skill and combat. Make people fight instead of just getting a cheap throw off the map. If i remember correctly it even says under duel to test your combat skill 1v1. Personally I find throwing someone off a map less skill full than winning a fight. Especially given some classes traits. I might be alone on this, but i just thought id throw it out there. Maybe add less fall points and spikes and more fire or something. I just want to fight in 1v1, not have a throwing contest.

DrExtrem
12-30-2016, 09:21 AM
it is a valid but cheap tactic.

and it only works, until your opponent finds out, that the second guard break (the push) can either be countered or avoided. i have seen videos, where very good players duelled each other ... successful double guardbreaks were extremely rare and both players were effectively countering each other all the time.

imvho, it is only a "first day problem". players will learn fast, how to not get kicked off the bridge in 1vs.1.

whovie
12-30-2016, 05:38 PM
You can only counter the first guard break I believe. Once your guard broken the person can throw you or hit you as they see fit. Not to mention several characters have moves that are not guard break but still move the enemy back alot when hit. Conq shield bash, warden shoulder charge, i saw the warlord had one, and the shugoki can just send you flying which is cool. but could be really simple to exploit and don't get me started on the Raiders capabilities.

You're right it is a valid tactic, my suggestion is removing some of the environmental deaths so its not the primary tactic. One thing my history of gaming has taught me is people will do whatever is easiest to win. I just don't want to see 1v1 turn into a throwing contest. It's like in other games when people find out a weapon or character is OP they all use that weapon or charcter and to me that just ruins the fun. Again its a valid tactic but its cheap and ruins the fun. I'd like to hope its a first day problem but I'm not that optimistic.

Ymir.exe
12-30-2016, 05:40 PM
The problem is the environmental hazards don't actually make duels more fun. Maybe for 2v2, but for 1v1, even without environmental hazards, guard breaks and throws and all of these things would still be very useful. So all the hazards add is an element of randomness that's pretty pointless. I would be all for removing them entirely from 1v1 duels.

whovie
12-30-2016, 07:48 PM
Thats pretty much the point i was trying and probably failing to make. I have no problem with throws and players moves. I just think environmental deaths play to much of a role in 1v1. In 2v2 4v4 yeah go for it. But like you said it just adds randomness and to me that takes away from skill.

DrExtrem
12-30-2016, 07:59 PM
i think the problem is not the ability to send someone flying.

it is the choice of duelling grounds. the murder pits and bridges are far too numerous. in addition, some abilities are way too strong ... like the raider football-fight and the excessive amount of knockback, the shoguko has. maybe its just map selection and rotation.

from what i have seen in a video from 'warriors keep', looks like a counter move after the first guard break.it looks like the players are using their guard break, directly after their guard whas been broken. at least it looks like this.

like i wrote before ... it certainly is a cheap tactic, that can especially kill the fun of new players. maybe some maps in the 1vs1 rotation were chosen ... unwisely and mainly for testing the feature. it should not be a problem to modify the map selection and rotation.

and from what i saw on youtube, the raiders footfall-fight will not make it into the beta the way it was during the alpha.

i guess, that the devs are aware of the "problem", that most enemies fell to theit death, rather then being taken by the sword. ... btw ... do vikings go to valhalla, if they were thrown off a cliff?

whovie
12-30-2016, 08:02 PM
Yeah I agree with you this problem could really be mitigated by the map selection. You wouldn't have to really change any map aspects. Just where you fight and what maps are in the rotation.

Dark-Thomy
12-31-2016, 09:07 AM
Maybe if only one of the three sub-maps of duel mode had something to throw someone... eventually..

Ymir.exe
12-31-2016, 12:19 PM
It's always simultaneously hilarious and depressing when you're playing the castle duel map, and after thoroughly whopping someone, they turn and run away to the spikes and pits and just stand there. ABORT! ABORT! SCRUB MODE ENGAGE!

TCTF_SWAT
01-01-2017, 02:08 AM
Seems fine to me. I mean, I wouldn't make it my objective, I'd just play it where "oh....we are near a ledge......hmmm watch your step."

Dead1y-Derri
01-06-2017, 03:40 AM
It is a valid point. I think once we see the playbase developing a much higher skill rate we'll see less of the environmental deaths as they'll become way less common.

ShuyinVardiz
01-06-2017, 04:06 PM
There were, are and always will be skillless players who base all their skill upon ledges and instantkill map effects. Had two in Brawl as enemys before....they'd prefer waiting near a ledge doing nothing until I come closer for minutes before doing anything else. In combat they were worthless, basically useless, but since one of them was one of the special force-movement classes you had pretty annoying fights.
Turned out to end extremely unsatisfying.

whovie
01-07-2017, 12:37 AM
It is a valid point. I think once we see the playbase developing a much higher skill rate we'll see less of the environmental deaths as they'll become way less common.

I can see your point but the opposite is also a very real possibility. Players will learn how to counter throws and guard breaks and reduce the chances of facing an environmental death. But there will also be players who master the combos and throws to maximize environmental deaths. Either way reducing the amount of chances for environmental deaths makes it less of a likely hood and promotes more combat.

Not saying they need to be taken out entirely just reduced.

Yggdrasil_67
01-08-2017, 11:08 PM
Like the others said, don't stand near environmental hazard if you're not confident in your guardbreak repelling caabilities.
If your oponent is on the offensive and you're both near a ledge you should launch a light attack as soon as he finishes his chain or you can be sure he's gonna try and push you off.

DrExtrem
01-09-2017, 12:22 PM
New videos state, that the "football" classes will be changed, because it is too easy to enviro-kill other players. First actions are about to be taken.

The next possible solution (if enviro-kills are too frequent) is to change the map rotation. Players who specialise in cheese, would get less chances to use it.

Last but not least - changing the maps. This is actually not a big thing. The murder pits are closed and the bridges repaired in duell mode. The first action is already in the works, the second is very easy to adjust. The third action can be done quickly but should only be done, if it gets out of hand and the changes should be restricted to the 1vs1 and 2vs2 maps.


"cheap" kills, lemming trains (gangs), class stacking, unfair matchmaking and bad balancing are the most dangerous enemies of competitive multiplayer. Be aware, be save.

Ymir.exe
01-09-2017, 01:20 PM
New videos state, that the "football" classes will be changed, because it is too easy to enviro-kill other players. First actions are about to be taken.

sauce pls.

http://i.imgur.com/ijfV3yo.png

Aarpian
01-09-2017, 01:39 PM
sauce pls.

http://i.imgur.com/ijfV3yo.png

This.

I think they should remove 90% of the instant-kill environmental hazards and stick to damage ones.

DrExtrem
01-09-2017, 03:07 PM
sauce pls.

http://i.imgur.com/ijfV3yo.png

I will look for the video after work.

Sorry. I was searching for the video on YouTube for about two hours but I did not find it.

I am really sorry, that I can't find the citation. In thus case, take my previous post with a grain of salt.

If I find it, I will post the link.

Mr_Gallows
01-10-2017, 12:22 PM
It has been so since alpha. I saw this video where a youtuber claimed "This is guaranteed to get patched before release" - not so much or they would have done it already.

Just face it and look at the hard evidence. They don't care. As long as it sells, they don't care at all. At least that's what UBI has shown so far.


https://youtu.be/OnNT11XfRnE

If they do manage to fix a few things, this could be one of the greatest games we have played for many years and signify the birth of something truly great for us AND for UBI, including their precious share holders. But half arsed just won't do, not for the share holder either.

iHunny
01-16-2017, 11:04 AM
Fix what? Environmental deaths? I have no problem with them at all.

Dez_troi_aR
01-16-2017, 01:37 PM
Fix what? Environmental deaths? I have no problem with them at all.

Me neither. I agree that enviromental kills should not be an easier way to win than taking the fight. But shoving your opponent off a cliff is as as legit way to win as any other. Spacing and placement is part of the fight and makes it more complex, not less. Also, the wall stun has always been the only way to get a guaranteed heavy. The enviroment is an essential part of the combat in FH

Ymir.exe
01-16-2017, 03:37 PM
It's not that they exist, it's that they're so common, it disproportionally benefits certain heroes. Raider was just casually strolling his way to victory during the alpha tossing people off left and right, and from what I've seen of the shugoki, if you can guard break someone and get that heavy attack in, they fly back like 15 meters.

Think of that castle map in duel mode, when you start on the bridge section. You have like 20 meters in between you and the enemy, and the entire thing is like 50% broken railing that leads to instant death.

Environmental deaths are fine, they just need to tone it down a little.

Dez_troi_aR
01-16-2017, 05:30 PM
It's not that they exist, it's that they're so common, it disproportionally benefits certain heroes. Raider was just casually strolling his way to victory during the alpha tossing people off left and right, and from what I've seen of the shugoki, if you can guard break someone and get that heavy attack in, they fly back like 15 meters.

Think of that castle map in duel mode, when you start on the bridge section. You have like 20 meters in between you and the enemy, and the entire thing is like 50% broken railing that leads to instant death.

Environmental deaths are fine, they just need to tone it down a little.

Some characters are about replacement, that is one of their strengths. Taking the enviromental kills out would make them weaker.
But i agree that characters chances of winning should not depend on the map. THing is, while it might have given the raider an edge in the alpha because shoving someone over a cliff is easier to execute for a noob then parrying etc., it was never something i have heard pros from the HoH or the starplayers complain about.
So i assume it is not really an issue once youve learned the mechanics and such attacks become riskier.

* A shugoki heavy attack is pretty difficult to get in, the possibility of killing a character by trowing him into spikes/etc with it is intentional (otherwise it would have zero effect other than creating space)
Btw, a guard break doesnt guarantee you a heavy hit, only a guard break+punching an enemy into a wall stun guarantees it. Even if you manage to get a wall stun, the window is too short to replace your shugoki so that the heavy hit would be a potential enviromental kill. So this is a temporary problem of players who have not yet learned the mechanics and get hit by random heavy attacks.

iHunny
01-16-2017, 05:39 PM
The Raiders throw was very easy to avoid. I never tought it made the fight unfair at all since he lacked in almost all other aspects.

whovie
01-16-2017, 07:55 PM
First game of its kind that hasn't been released yet and it already has pros? Nobody has advocated for the removal of environmental deaths just reduced exposure to them. Pro players should advocate for this as well since it takes away from skill. Sure in combat you use the environment but it shouldn't determine the battle every match. Go watch rewatch the clips on youtube of duels and you'll see a majority of the maps are layed out with ledges on a majority of the sides.

It's not about a certain characters moves its about encouraging combat and making people fight to win without relying on chance of environmental kill or location to win. I don't really see why people would be so opposed to this if they want a competitive duel mode.

TCTF_SWAT
01-17-2017, 05:38 AM
Why don't people just fight away from ledges?

Ymir.exe
01-17-2017, 06:31 AM
Why don't people just fight away from ledges?

IDK, why don't people just win duels? It's so easy. You just start the duel, and then don't lose.

TCTF_SWAT
01-17-2017, 06:42 AM
Well there you go. Simple solution.

Dez_troi_aR
01-17-2017, 12:26 PM
First game of its kind that hasn't been released yet and it already has pros? Nobody has advocated for the removal of environmental deaths just reduced exposure to them. Pro players should advocate for this as well since it takes away from skill. Sure in combat you use the environment but it shouldn't determine the battle every match. Go watch rewatch the clips on youtube of duels and you'll see a majority of the maps are layed out with ledges on a majority of the sides.

It's not about a certain characters moves its about encouraging combat and making people fight to win without relying on chance of environmental kill or location to win. I don't really see why people would be so opposed to this if they want a competitive duel mode.

Listen, i am all in favour of competitive 1v1. But from what i have seen, enviroment tends to add a layer of complexity to fights between skilled opponents.

To answer your question: The game istn even out yet, so there are no "pros", you are right. But many starplayers from ubisoft have not only participated in the Alphas, but also in many smaller tests which were not public and at local events. These guys have about 200 hours of playtime and they are very skilled.