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View Full Version : A major oversight in combat balance: stagger.



Breikas.
12-25-2016, 12:56 PM
Hey guys,

first up I want to say that I really love the game so far, I've probably played multiplayer more than over 100 hours in the Technical Tests and Alpha combined. I have around a winrate of 95% in duels, so I'd like to believe I have a decent grasp of the combat system.

It surprises me that no-one has spoken about the staggering mechanic after blocking a light attack, which leaves you open for a free uncounterable guardbreak.
This is most noteable in duels and when playing vs. a Conqueror (can't talk about other similar classes, NDA): A Conqueror can interupt any chain after a block.

How to abuse this?

Queue up for a duel and pick Conqueror
Find a spot near a ledge or death-trap (spikes, pits, ...)
Purely focus on defence near the ledge, when the other player is forced to make a move you block his attack or counterguardbreak.
After the block, he is now open for a guardbreak, which cannot be countered. Guardbreak him and throw him in said ledge, spamming your emote is optional.




TLDR: A guardbreak should always have to be possible to counterguardbreak, except maybe after being parried.

Dark-Thomy
12-25-2016, 01:29 PM
Are you sure of that ?
Thought it was only true after a parry (which isn't awesome too, in my opinion..)

Breikas.
12-25-2016, 02:08 PM
Are you sure of that ?
Thought it was only true after a parry (which isn't awesome too, in my opinion..)

Yes, although it depends on what class you pick if it's in your heavy or light chain for some reason.
I do hope an Ubi employee sees this and it gets resolved before the full game, at high level every duel would be a tie otherwise with no-one wanting to attack.

zefurr
12-26-2016, 06:09 PM
You are correct in that certain moves on block are punishable by certain characters with an uncounterable guard break. Many of these need to be looked at, on a case by case basis.

Your suggestion to make all guard breaks counterable outside of parries is incredibly debilitating to certain characters who rely on guard break to get a decent punish against an opponent's mistakes. The easiest example is if someone side dashes at point blank, you get a free guard break for them making this mistake and get to punish them. By contrast if you aren't an assassin and you try to light attack them for this, they can block it and quite possibly parry or dodge it again, punishing you for even trying to attack them.

This problem is most obvious when you feint a heavy attack to bait someone into dodging, the only reliable punish is guard break. Everything else has to be delayed so long (to ensure you swing at where their dash ends, and not where it started) that as a slower character you are likely to get interrupted for trying.

handheld brando
12-27-2016, 01:32 AM
Only a true parry will guarantee a guard break.

After blocking a light a guard break can still be countered as long as you time it right.

Breikas.
12-27-2016, 10:35 AM
Only a true parry will guarantee a guard break.

After blocking a light a guard break can still be countered as long as you time it right.

Hey Brando, thanks for the response.

Are you sure you are talking about Technical Test 2?
This is how it should be in my opinion, but sadly this isn't true.

I have tested this multiple times and the stagger animation prevents you from counterguardbreak.

If you have any means to test this, I implore you to try it yourself by blocking chains vs. different heroes.

I will test this myself again when the beta releases in january.

zefurr
12-27-2016, 09:26 PM
In general I believe Brando is correct. In practice I tested blocked Kensei side dash light attacks and the Warden seemed to be able to land an uncounterable guard break consistently. I won't say it's impossible but I will say I find it unlikely that both my partner and I failed to counter the guard break after having our side-dash light attacks blocked. We generally had a pretty easy time countering guard breaks.

My brawl partner and I did this for several characters and moves while searching for punishes. This one with the Kensei stood out to me as very unexpected.

Breikas.
02-03-2017, 10:44 AM
After testing this out again in the closed beta: I can confirm that if the Conqueror blocks a heavy attack, he gets an uninterruptable guardbreak after it.
This essentially means that any blocked heavy attack has the same value as though he would have parried said attack.

I am not sure if this is intentional?

Altair_Snake
02-04-2017, 07:47 AM
This is a great find. Did you see the chart detailing the match-ups where this happens? Someone did it.

emmdeekizzlar
02-05-2017, 12:05 AM
This might be a controversial opinion but I think the free GB for Conqueror following a blocked heavy attack is both intended and necessary. The conqueror is the only class we've seen so far that lacks a true feint (you can use full block mode as a ghetto feint but I'm led to believe this isn't near as effective but perhaps I'm wrong). I think as people get better at using the block and parry systems the feint game is going to be ultimately what separates the great players from the rest as peoples knowledge improves.

I think Ubisoft understood the fact that a character not having a true feint would be a massive detriment in the long run and decided to give Conqueror it's own, unique ability to get a free guard break after blocking a heavy attack. This both is a reasonable compromise to having no feint and bolsters Conqueror class identiy as a defensive juggernaut, as opponents really need to feint well and pick their shots wisely in the face of a guaranteed guard break into the shield bash mixup.

There are obviously some downsides:

I could see Conq vs Conq matches playing out for obscenely long amounts of time as both sides would be afraid to make an attack for risk of getting punished (that said some matchups in traditional fighting games often lead to time outs so this isn't unheard of)

If it is intentional it should be communicated more clearly. I was getting tremeondsly frustrated on the first day or so wondering why I was having such difficulty teching guard breaks only to find out they were unbreakable.

I think Conqueror might end up as a weaker class if this is removed as more people will become comfortable blocking and parrying their slow attacks without a feint for variation.

DBLxxShotz
02-07-2017, 06:12 AM
This might be a controversial opinion but I think the free GB for Conqueror following a blocked heavy attack is both intended and necessary. The conqueror is the only class we've seen so far that lacks a true feint (you can use full block mode as a ghetto feint but I'm led to believe this isn't near as effective but perhaps I'm wrong). I think as people get better at using the block and parry systems the feint game is going to be ultimately what separates the great players from the rest as peoples knowledge improves.

I think Ubisoft understood the fact that a character not having a true feint would be a massive detriment in the long run and decided to give Conqueror it's own, unique ability to get a free guard break after blocking a heavy attack. This both is a reasonable compromise to having no feint and bolsters Conqueror class identiy as a defensive juggernaut, as opponents really need to feint well and pick their shots wisely in the face of a guaranteed guard break into the shield bash mixup.

There are obviously some downsides:

I could see Conq vs Conq matches playing out for obscenely long amounts of time as both sides would be afraid to make an attack for risk of getting punished (that said some matchups in traditional fighting games often lead to time outs so this isn't unheard of)

If it is intentional it should be communicated more clearly. I was getting tremeondsly frustrated on the first day or so wondering why I was having such difficulty teching guard breaks only to find out they were unbreakable.

I think Conqueror might end up as a weaker class if this is removed as more people will become comfortable blocking and parrying their slow attacks without a feint for variation.

I can agree with this. Makes sense.

CaptainPwnet
02-08-2017, 02:07 AM
This might be a controversial opinion but I think the free GB for Conqueror following a blocked heavy attack is both intended and necessary. The conqueror is the only class we've seen so far that lacks a true feint (you can use full block mode as a ghetto feint but I'm led to believe this isn't near as effective but perhaps I'm wrong). I think as people get better at using the block and parry systems the feint game is going to be ultimately what separates the great players from the rest as peoples knowledge improves.

I think Ubisoft understood the fact that a character not having a true feint would be a massive detriment in the long run and decided to give Conqueror it's own, unique ability to get a free guard break after blocking a heavy attack. This both is a reasonable compromise to having no feint and bolsters Conqueror class identiy as a defensive juggernaut, as opponents really need to feint well and pick their shots wisely in the face of a guaranteed guard break into the shield bash mixup.

There are obviously some downsides:

I could see Conq vs Conq matches playing out for obscenely long amounts of time as both sides would be afraid to make an attack for risk of getting punished (that said some matchups in traditional fighting games often lead to time outs so this isn't unheard of)

If it is intentional it should be communicated more clearly. I was getting tremeondsly frustrated on the first day or so wondering why I was having such difficulty teching guard breaks only to find out they were unbreakable.

I think Conqueror might end up as a weaker class if this is removed as more people will become comfortable blocking and parrying their slow attacks without a feint for variation.

No, conqueror can parry just like everyone else. The punish on parries is already bad enough, being able to get the same punish(minus stamina damage) for regular blocking is ludicrous and should not be a thing for any class or matchup. Free damage on defense is very poor game design, if you look at the table presented here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iZXPu8RkGvsbr-5W4xMIfzgB7z-PZPtfc7kUcacIkWk/edit#gid=693476689

You will see that the zerker is completely screwed. Every time he swings a light attack he risks it being blocked and then being open for a free uncounterable GB. That risk vs reward is just beyond stupid. Why would you ever attack? Then that slowly becomes why ever play the class? All of this needs to be changed and nothing should grant an uncounterable GB on block.

As I said before it's already bad enough with parries promoting passive play where noone decent wants to risk attacking and being parried cause the punish is too great, this is even worse.

I can't help but think all the uncounterable GB stuff is an unintended oversight. The only ones that make sense are GB on heavy attack startup and GB to catch dodges. Everything else I just can't imagine that was how they intended it to work as it is just such bad design.

NoGround
02-08-2017, 02:28 AM
Is this real? I played a ton of Berserker in Open Beta and even practiced my CGB's on him. Didn't have any trouble. Who made this? What was the testing? Any videos?

It literally makes 0 sense that the Berserker cannot CGB on a block for light attacks. They can start blocking again before an opponent's attack comes in, meaning they can CGB. I will be doing confirmation on this in Open Beta, because I don't believe it for a ******* second that Berserker is that screwed. I had way too much success with him.

Being able to have an uninterruptable GB on a parry is perfectly fine. You got Parried, prepare to be punished. That's definitely not bad design in the slightest. I also happen to agree with much of the Conquerer getting free GB's as well. They can't do much off of them, in the first place. Just don't fight a Conqueror near ledge. Done. Easy.

Gottesprach
02-08-2017, 04:24 AM
It's because of the animation programming, and I bet it's an unintended side effect. A GB is only uncounterable if the character is locked in an animation when GB'd. Notice how you CAN counter a GB when in a full-block stance as Warlord or Conq. You'd think you can GB them, but because its a static animation, (no movement) they can tech it. It's ONLY uncounterable as they are entering/exiting full guard, which is only a couple frames of movement.

It just so happens, that the animation a character does after a Conq blocks a heavy is just long enough to animation lock them when a GB comes in. Same thing with the Zerk, it just so happens that the particular animation they decided on for blocking a Zerk light is long enough to prevent GB teching if a GB is initiated INSTANTLY. Just light 2D fighters, they seem to base a lot of coding around animations.

CaptainPwnet
02-08-2017, 04:40 AM
It's because of the animation programming, and I bet it's an unintended side effect. A GB is only uncounterable if the character is locked in an animation when GB'd. Notice how you CAN counter a GB when in a full-block stance as Warlord or Conq. You'd think you can GB them, but because its a static animation, (no movement) they can tech it. It's ONLY uncounterable as they are entering/exiting full guard, which is only a couple frames of movement.

It just so happens, that the animation a character does after a Conq blocks a heavy is just long enough to animation lock them when a GB comes in. Same thing with the Zerk, it just so happens that the particular animation they decided on for blocking a Zerk light is long enough to prevent GB teching if a GB is initiated INSTANTLY. Just light 2D fighters, they seem to base a lot of coding around animations.

Yeah I figured something like this was the culprit too. I just can't imagine they would actually have wanted any of this to work like it does intentionally. But it really needs to be fixed ASAP. As it is now if anyone knows about this then zerk is almost unplayable. Even conq, although can punish lots on block, that's about all he can do since his light is also punishable on block with GB.

Also makes me wonder if the free GB after parry is intentional or not as well. I would have to say probably not especially since as far as I know this information is not relayed to the player in the game at all. Hopefully this also gets changed as it's pretty silly.