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Zen--
03-03-2004, 12:59 PM
Robban, Hunde and others, here is my first impression of the TA152


First off, the Ta152 is an offensive plane, much more so than the D9 or other FW series. It is going to be much more difficult to get out of trouble in the TA152 than it has been with the D9 and will probably require a much better understanding of the TA's abilities in that regard. This plane doesn't seem to have defense in mind...it feels like it's designed to swoop in and crush the enemy as opposed to longer protected fights like the D9 is capable of, in fact it radiates that offensive mentality. Agility is lower than the D9 but it seems optimized for getting in with the enemy and blasting them out of the sky...it has the missing attributes that allow it to get in and take the shot, to sustain pressure on the bandit and to outgun your target. Firepower is amazing, handling is solid and robust but still precise. She feels great under the stick.

She is an excellent low level dogfighter and I mean excellent. The turn rate is phenomenal compared to other 190's. So far I haven't really been able to put her through her paces, but if you're used to the D9, this will be like a whole new kind of animal for you.

Rollrate is definately slower than the D9, but is still decent. I'd say it rolls as well as 109's and the La7, haven't been able to get into a scissors yet so I can't really say how well she'll do there. Looks ok to me, I've always found the Dora even doesn't need the roll rate that it currently has to succeed, very rarely did I ever find myself using the maximum rate anyway.

Acceleration is poor in level flight, not so bad in a dive but nothing like what the D9 in 1.22 is capable of. That famous story of Kurt Tank hitting the switch and dusting those mustangs is NEVER going to happen with this TA152 in AEP lol.

All planes seem more lethargic in AEP and so the poor acceleration is not nearly as bad as it may sound. It seems like acceleration for everyone has been toned down and my feeling is that the TA will be just fine in that department compared to everyone else.

Level speed is not so great at SL. I was able to test fly it to 554kph with 0 on the vertical rate indicator, radiator closed and autoprop pitch. 562kph is listed in the object viewer so I am satisfied with the results. Overheat was on, comes on after about 6 minutes with auto rad and about 3 minutes with radiator closed. (those are ballpark figures, I haven't clocked anything)

The interesting thing is that you seem to get better performance on auto pitch than manual, which to me is a good thing. Somewhere down in the 80% manual pitch range I suspect there may be a performance increase, but I haven't tested it in any depth so far, but for sure 100% manual will slow you down.

The gunsight is simply amazing for a FW jock. I'd say it's about average with a 109 and you still have the heavy canopy framing, but compared to the D9 it's like taking the blind fold off at last. Go Oleg! Between the turn rate increase and the incrementally better gunsight, the TA152 is a definate low altitude contender.


The 20mm's pack a great punch and fire much faster than the D9's guns, they will be your bread and butter without doubt. But it's the MK108 that will simply stun you. If you hit with it (and seems to be easier than in 1.22, convergance currently set at 400 btw) your target explodes. Really explodes like the DM for the weapon has been tweaked. Nice...very nice. I recommend binding it to a second button, it's very wasteful to fire all 3 guns at the same time and I find that I shoot MG at fighters unless a really good shot comes up and use the 108 only for close in work on bombers. For that it is lethal :)

The interesting part is that if you fly the TA152 like a FW, once you finally do get saddled up you don't have to fire long bursts or plink the target to death, nor do you have to get a tight angle, shoot and then be forced to waive off and come back for another pass because the target is outturning you...the turn rate of the TA lets you stay in the lane for a much much greater time than the D9 and you are able to do so much more damage that I find targets are litterally dropping from the sky when I saddle up. It's amazing...it doesn't seem like the patience game is required to the same degree as we are used to, you can get in, saddle up and take the target down, then move on to where you need to be. Feels downright NASTY, like you are an angry FW jock finally given something with some punch.

Tactical use is going to be tricky...my initial impressions are that this plane can get stuck in a low E state and will have a tough time getting out of a jam, so if anything I'd say even more careful pre engagement thinking is needed, at least for the way I fly. The lower rollrate is a big factor here too and it's something that might lead one into turning more often instead of scissoring to change the advantage. Constant turning in this or any Luft plane is never a good idea.

The biggest weakness of the plane is that I think it's going to tend to breed aggressiveness in the pilot and that will inevitably cause trouble. It's easy to get overconfident in for sure, so perhaps the best approach might still be the D9 energy fighting style and use the turn rate only enough to finish a target off. I'll need a few weeks to refine my opinion on that probably.

E retention I am still out on the fence about, but the TA152 is no dog here. It does well with traditional 190 manuevers, has a really nice vertical reversal at 380kph and a wonderful semi sustained turn rate at 320-340kph. Pure sustained turn rate keeps you at about 240kph with combat flaps and the plane doesn't feel very good, though still better than the Dora at 280kph. The stall is also unexpected and occurs in a flat turn around 320kph, recovery takes longer than the Dora and you really have to be careful not to let it develope into a flat spin. I'm 50/50 for getting out of them so far, but they are really scary to say the least.

I can't say stellar E retention at this point because something has changed for everyone in the FM. There is a global effect that makes it hard to get a feel for it. All planes seem to dive more slowly (break up speed for the TA and the Dora is 960kph on the speedbar, but is only reached with a 4400 meter dive), they all seem to roll more slowly and accelerate less. During manuevers I'd say planes tend to keep more energy...no numbers yet but it feels like you keep it longer but regain it more slowly. Interesting change to the dynamics for sure. The entire pace of the game is a notch slower than FB 1.22, feels more like 1941 servers, especially the mushyness in the vertical.


The TA152 is not a stall fighter and I doubt you will succeed with it in a furball on a regular basis. It is an energy fighter though with a very nice turn rate....so more of an angles E fighter than a speed E fighter. It's hard to say what would win Dora vs TA152 if flown to the limits but my money is more toward the TA in that scenario. The TA is definately a very dangerous plane because the likelyhood of saddling up is so much greater (it easily outturns mustangs down low, something the Dora can only match the mustang with, not beat it convincingly) and the firepower is tremendous...but care must be taken even more than the Dora to keep SA. The plane doesn't recover energy quite as well and the climb rate won't get you out of hot water as fast.

Speaking of, 20m/s climb seems to be a consistent number at SL. Up high the plane is frightening to behold, but down low you will have to use caution before entering a turn fight, level extensions are difficult and climbing extensions are not as effective than with the Dora. But with the turn rate...I really have to wonder if this plane should be fought the same way as the Dora anyway. Perhaps a better style would be how an E fighting La7 should be flown...not constant turning but more so than constant climbing.


It's an interesting plane, very interesting. I don't think Luft pilots have flown anything like it, there really is no comparison from existing types that I can see.


So in summary, you don't have a super D9, you have something else entirely. It's a fantastic turning plane, something we FW fliers are probably not used to, but take it with a grain of salt. The long term effectiveness is going to require just as much or more to achieve as the D9 currently does.


Enjoy!

-Zen-

Zen--
03-03-2004, 12:59 PM
Robban, Hunde and others, here is my first impression of the TA152


First off, the Ta152 is an offensive plane, much more so than the D9 or other FW series. It is going to be much more difficult to get out of trouble in the TA152 than it has been with the D9 and will probably require a much better understanding of the TA's abilities in that regard. This plane doesn't seem to have defense in mind...it feels like it's designed to swoop in and crush the enemy as opposed to longer protected fights like the D9 is capable of, in fact it radiates that offensive mentality. Agility is lower than the D9 but it seems optimized for getting in with the enemy and blasting them out of the sky...it has the missing attributes that allow it to get in and take the shot, to sustain pressure on the bandit and to outgun your target. Firepower is amazing, handling is solid and robust but still precise. She feels great under the stick.

She is an excellent low level dogfighter and I mean excellent. The turn rate is phenomenal compared to other 190's. So far I haven't really been able to put her through her paces, but if you're used to the D9, this will be like a whole new kind of animal for you.

Rollrate is definately slower than the D9, but is still decent. I'd say it rolls as well as 109's and the La7, haven't been able to get into a scissors yet so I can't really say how well she'll do there. Looks ok to me, I've always found the Dora even doesn't need the roll rate that it currently has to succeed, very rarely did I ever find myself using the maximum rate anyway.

Acceleration is poor in level flight, not so bad in a dive but nothing like what the D9 in 1.22 is capable of. That famous story of Kurt Tank hitting the switch and dusting those mustangs is NEVER going to happen with this TA152 in AEP lol.

All planes seem more lethargic in AEP and so the poor acceleration is not nearly as bad as it may sound. It seems like acceleration for everyone has been toned down and my feeling is that the TA will be just fine in that department compared to everyone else.

Level speed is not so great at SL. I was able to test fly it to 554kph with 0 on the vertical rate indicator, radiator closed and autoprop pitch. 562kph is listed in the object viewer so I am satisfied with the results. Overheat was on, comes on after about 6 minutes with auto rad and about 3 minutes with radiator closed. (those are ballpark figures, I haven't clocked anything)

The interesting thing is that you seem to get better performance on auto pitch than manual, which to me is a good thing. Somewhere down in the 80% manual pitch range I suspect there may be a performance increase, but I haven't tested it in any depth so far, but for sure 100% manual will slow you down.

The gunsight is simply amazing for a FW jock. I'd say it's about average with a 109 and you still have the heavy canopy framing, but compared to the D9 it's like taking the blind fold off at last. Go Oleg! Between the turn rate increase and the incrementally better gunsight, the TA152 is a definate low altitude contender.


The 20mm's pack a great punch and fire much faster than the D9's guns, they will be your bread and butter without doubt. But it's the MK108 that will simply stun you. If you hit with it (and seems to be easier than in 1.22, convergance currently set at 400 btw) your target explodes. Really explodes like the DM for the weapon has been tweaked. Nice...very nice. I recommend binding it to a second button, it's very wasteful to fire all 3 guns at the same time and I find that I shoot MG at fighters unless a really good shot comes up and use the 108 only for close in work on bombers. For that it is lethal :)

The interesting part is that if you fly the TA152 like a FW, once you finally do get saddled up you don't have to fire long bursts or plink the target to death, nor do you have to get a tight angle, shoot and then be forced to waive off and come back for another pass because the target is outturning you...the turn rate of the TA lets you stay in the lane for a much much greater time than the D9 and you are able to do so much more damage that I find targets are litterally dropping from the sky when I saddle up. It's amazing...it doesn't seem like the patience game is required to the same degree as we are used to, you can get in, saddle up and take the target down, then move on to where you need to be. Feels downright NASTY, like you are an angry FW jock finally given something with some punch.

Tactical use is going to be tricky...my initial impressions are that this plane can get stuck in a low E state and will have a tough time getting out of a jam, so if anything I'd say even more careful pre engagement thinking is needed, at least for the way I fly. The lower rollrate is a big factor here too and it's something that might lead one into turning more often instead of scissoring to change the advantage. Constant turning in this or any Luft plane is never a good idea.

The biggest weakness of the plane is that I think it's going to tend to breed aggressiveness in the pilot and that will inevitably cause trouble. It's easy to get overconfident in for sure, so perhaps the best approach might still be the D9 energy fighting style and use the turn rate only enough to finish a target off. I'll need a few weeks to refine my opinion on that probably.

E retention I am still out on the fence about, but the TA152 is no dog here. It does well with traditional 190 manuevers, has a really nice vertical reversal at 380kph and a wonderful semi sustained turn rate at 320-340kph. Pure sustained turn rate keeps you at about 240kph with combat flaps and the plane doesn't feel very good, though still better than the Dora at 280kph. The stall is also unexpected and occurs in a flat turn around 320kph, recovery takes longer than the Dora and you really have to be careful not to let it develope into a flat spin. I'm 50/50 for getting out of them so far, but they are really scary to say the least.

I can't say stellar E retention at this point because something has changed for everyone in the FM. There is a global effect that makes it hard to get a feel for it. All planes seem to dive more slowly (break up speed for the TA and the Dora is 960kph on the speedbar, but is only reached with a 4400 meter dive), they all seem to roll more slowly and accelerate less. During manuevers I'd say planes tend to keep more energy...no numbers yet but it feels like you keep it longer but regain it more slowly. Interesting change to the dynamics for sure. The entire pace of the game is a notch slower than FB 1.22, feels more like 1941 servers, especially the mushyness in the vertical.


The TA152 is not a stall fighter and I doubt you will succeed with it in a furball on a regular basis. It is an energy fighter though with a very nice turn rate....so more of an angles E fighter than a speed E fighter. It's hard to say what would win Dora vs TA152 if flown to the limits but my money is more toward the TA in that scenario. The TA is definately a very dangerous plane because the likelyhood of saddling up is so much greater (it easily outturns mustangs down low, something the Dora can only match the mustang with, not beat it convincingly) and the firepower is tremendous...but care must be taken even more than the Dora to keep SA. The plane doesn't recover energy quite as well and the climb rate won't get you out of hot water as fast.

Speaking of, 20m/s climb seems to be a consistent number at SL. Up high the plane is frightening to behold, but down low you will have to use caution before entering a turn fight, level extensions are difficult and climbing extensions are not as effective than with the Dora. But with the turn rate...I really have to wonder if this plane should be fought the same way as the Dora anyway. Perhaps a better style would be how an E fighting La7 should be flown...not constant turning but more so than constant climbing.


It's an interesting plane, very interesting. I don't think Luft pilots have flown anything like it, there really is no comparison from existing types that I can see.


So in summary, you don't have a super D9, you have something else entirely. It's a fantastic turning plane, something we FW fliers are probably not used to, but take it with a grain of salt. The long term effectiveness is going to require just as much or more to achieve as the D9 currently does.


Enjoy!

-Zen-

TheGozr
03-03-2004, 01:06 PM
Holalala!

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg <--Uncensored version IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

biggs222
03-03-2004, 01:09 PM
that was great Zen thanks

do the spitfire next hehehe

JG26Red
03-03-2004, 01:13 PM
554-560kp =350mph range... which is correct for the deck speed.. so they hit that right on... i will fly it a bit, and see how it is and stuff, but gonna be really hard to pry me away from my Antons, espcially since i heard the A9 climbs like it supposed to now!!!



try any other planes ZEN? i.e. the 109Z? i was talking to somebody else and he said its just a monster.. lol

Zen--
03-03-2004, 01:14 PM
I would, but I don't know enough about them to comment honestly. One thing is for sure, they turn FAST.

-Zen-

Cpt_Rio
03-03-2004, 01:16 PM
This was the best review I've ever read....Good Job!

Zen--
03-03-2004, 01:16 PM
The 109Z is a joke imho...but don't let it catch you :) 4x mk108's and you go bye bye but flying it is weird...I thought I had a blind wingman next to me the whole time. It handles better than I thought it would honestly, I think it might be able to actually dogfight.

It's just too weird for me, but then I only flew it around the block once.

-Zen-

Xnomad
03-03-2004, 01:16 PM
Cheers! That was very well written and informative, I admire the fact that you could pull yourself away from the game to share this with us poor sods who don't have it yet, if I were you I'd be flying every new plane over and over, hell I don't think I'll even eat when we get it!

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

Zen--
03-03-2004, 01:19 PM
Bah! Everyone knows I only fly this game for two planes, you guys can have the rest of them hehehe


S!

-Zen-

JG26Red
03-03-2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Zen--:
The 109Z is a joke imho...but don't let it catch you :) 4x mk108's and you go bye bye but flying it is weird...I thought I had a blind wingman next to me the whole time. It handles better than I thought it would honestly, I think it might be able to actually dogfight.

It's just too weird for me, but then I only flew it around the block once.

-Zen-


4 MK108s!!!! OMG, bomber overkill, watchout bomber pilots... yum yum... lol

sobolan
03-03-2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Zen--:
The 109Z is a joke imho...but don't let it catch you :) 4x mk108's and you go bye bye but flying it is weird...

Yeap...it leans on the righ a lot:)
But...never go head on against this beast...it's pulverising everything:)

http://www.forumag.as.ro/speed/bazu11.jpg

Hunde_3.JG51
03-03-2004, 01:51 PM
Thanks Zen, good stuff. The Ta-152 will certainly take some adjusting to by us 190 guys. My initial impression is that it will require new tactics and that it certainly isn't an uber plane (which is a good thing). The Ta-152 will be a compliment to the A-9 and the Dora, not a replacement (which means Oleg did a good job).

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

robban75
03-03-2004, 02:12 PM
Wow, thanks so much Zen that was a great review of the Ta 152!
No, all I need is to try it out for myself,,, in about 2-3 weeks!:(

Interesting about the dive acceleration being lowered, aswell as E retention being better.
Tell me Zen, since the D-9 is our main ride, does she handle differently, is there a need to re-learn how to use her?
Is it an improvement?

Again, thanks for the super review!:)



When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

Skalgrim
03-03-2004, 02:26 PM
hope, a9 initialclimb is now better as a8.

very interesting with the big difference overheat time, with automatic radiator or close,

that was miss in fb 1,22, important factor for good sim


Give too difference overheat time low altitude high altitude?

[This message was edited by Skalgrim on Wed March 03 2004 at 02:18 PM.]

robban75
03-03-2004, 02:58 PM
Oleg himself said that the climbrate for the A-9 was fixed. It should now have an initial climbrate of 22m/sec.:)



When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

Hunde_3.JG51
03-03-2004, 03:02 PM
Robban, can you test that sometime? Oleg didn't say he fixed it, he said that he could get 22m/sec in A-9 in AEP. He also said he didn't change anything in 1.21 but didn't check it either.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

crazyivan1970
03-03-2004, 03:07 PM
Excellent review mate, very well done.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Willey
03-03-2004, 03:07 PM
thx for the effort m8 :)

robban75
03-03-2004, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Robban, can you test that sometime? Oleg didn't say he fixed it, he said that he could get 22m/sec in A-9 in AEP. He also said he didn't change anything in 1.21 but didn't check it either.


I'll have to wait another 2-3 weeks for that Hunde. :(
But I'll be sure to do some extensive testing when I get the AEP!;)

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

Zen--
03-03-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by robban75:
Wow, thanks so much Zen that was a great review of the Ta 152!
No, all I need is to try it out for myself,,, in about 2-3 weeks!:(

Interesting about the dive acceleration being lowered, aswell as E retention being better.
Tell me Zen, since the D-9 is our main ride, does she handle differently, is there a need to re-learn how to use her?
Is it an improvement?

Again, thanks for the super review!:)




She does handle differently, the TA is not as agile and it feels heavier in the controls to a degree, but I don't think you will have to relearn her at all. You'll need to keep in mind that it's about 85% as fast and 85% as agile, but is a much better turner though, so you won't be able to get away with riding that certain fine line of performance. I'd say for me it's the difference between the A5 and the D9...a generally similar style but requiring finese at different points of the engagement.

-Zen-

diomedes33
03-03-2004, 04:12 PM
awesome, can't wait to try it out. Must be the only one in the US that doesn't have a copy.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

Magister__Ludi
03-03-2004, 04:28 PM
Zen, how's FW man, did it got the complex DM? Or you still lose the wing after two MG hits?

Ob.Emann
03-03-2004, 04:42 PM
Thanks for the in-depth review.

Der Oberst von schlechten Piloten

Zen--
03-03-2004, 06:04 PM
The CDM is good, much better than the old for sure. The D9 and the TA152 are tough and do well in head to head engagements.

The only problem I've seen so far is a rather bad tendancy for the gunsight to get shot out when taking almost any kind of damage, especially from the rear. It seems that almost any hit shatters the Revi...rather too often I think.


But no more chipped paint induced loss of speed, no more weird rolling when the surface is scratched. It's a vast improvement over the old DM definately, though I'm concerned about the gunsight thing. Time will tell if thats a problem or not, maybe just a run of coincidence here.

-Zen-

WaffenKatze
03-03-2004, 06:27 PM
for 109Z
my friend found it has superb climb rate (yes he said with manuel prop pitch)than anyother bf, which one important point for 109.
and show to me how works like a rocket with it in online instant dogfight.

sorry for crappy english

and thanks for Great Review

Zen--
03-03-2004, 10:08 PM
Bump for BS87



A word of caution I might add, the flat spin in the TA152 is lethal. It comes on rapidly unless immediate action is taken during the wingover...trying to fight against it will make the flat spin come even faster.

During the spin, rudder into the direction of the spin combined with a reduction in power gives a decent chance of a nose low pullout, but generally 2000 meters is the minimum altitude you can recover.

The spin happens often right as the TA crossed 320kph in a tight turn or vertical manuever. The traditional FW wingover happens but opposite rudder will tend to prevent the spin. Aileron rolling opposite the stall with rudder opposite also seems to aggravate the situation and brings on the spin much faster.


After flying it for a half day now, I'd say this plane will take more skill to fly than the D9 in part because of the nasty stall and in part because of it's lower E fighting ability...if not familiar with the spin recovery the plane is pretty close to a death trap.



-Zen-

[This message was edited by Zen-- on Wed March 03 2004 at 09:20 PM.]

Gwalker70
03-03-2004, 11:16 PM
once again I find the TA's acceleration too slow.. same was with Dora GOD lets fix this so I can shut the hell up BYE

LEXX_Luthor
03-04-2004, 12:49 AM
Fw types always had poor accel compared to many others, except maybe USA planes.

Just flying it a wee bit, this thing just climbs and climbs and keeps on climbing....I guessed the long wings would hurt the dive speed, and my Ta blew up at what I thought was ~850km/hr IAS on the speed bar about 3000m high. Don't really remember though.

Gwalker70
03-04-2004, 12:50 AM
the later FW accelerated like crazy

Hunde_3.JG51
03-04-2004, 01:58 AM
I definitely agree Zen after spending time in my 190's that the complex DM is a big improvement. Its funny you mentioned the gunsight thing, thought it must have been some freak occurance as my sight was getting knocked out quite frequently. This is probably some sort of bug/error but it pales in comparison to the problems of simplified DM. I would bring up the gunsight problem in ORR but it would look pretty nitpicky with every thing that is going on. Maybe in a day or so when things (hopefully) calm down.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

Skalgrim
03-04-2004, 03:38 AM
a4 accelerate much better as spit5 and too better as spit9 ,british test

dora powerloading is too good, not same as la-7 but similar yak9u or yak3

[This message was edited by Skalgrim on Thu March 04 2004 at 03:04 AM.]

Magister__Ludi
03-04-2004, 03:48 AM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Fw types always had poor accel compared to many others, except maybe USA planes.




You're are obviously confused here by the unhistoric representation of russian planes in FB. Fw-190 was a better accelerating plane that all russian fighters before La-5FN. There is only a 6 to 12 months gap in the whole war in which the Russians had better accelerating fighters that those produced by FW.

TheGozr
03-04-2004, 03:58 AM
I think Zen you must love the new 190 mistel.

that's you man...

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg <--Uncensored version IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

03-04-2004, 04:42 AM
It's interesting to see someone who seems to have taken away the very thoughts inside your head, and write them out better than yourself. :)

Have done a serious of combat trials and tests with the Ta152H-1, I come here to post my results, and find out that Zen has already done that for me. :)


Here's the one part he didn't mention:

I've tried a zoom test at sea level with 650km/h. I dived down to deck with MW50 engaged, and as the speed hit over 650km/h TAS at approximately 30 meters altitude, I let the plane recover itself and zoom upwards, with just 10 clicks of nose-downward elevator trim, probably slightly higher than a 1G pull.

The Ta152H-1, broke the 2000m line zooming up vertical, gently stalled at approximately 80km/h TAS, and reversed.

All the other aspects are as Zen mentioned, and as estimated. Level acceleration is lower than the D-9. Speed and roll characteristics are also inferior compared to the D-9.

However, maneuverability is markedly superior to the Fw190D-9, and energy retention while maneuvering, is also superior to the D-9. When extending away in dives, if the Ta152H had the initial advantage in speed, it took a long time for the P-51D or the La-7 to catch up to within gunnery range, despite the fact both of these fighters are faster than the Ta at deck altitudes; which means, the Ta152H, while not faster than other birds at low alts, can grab on to that extra speed gained longer than any other bird in AEP.

As long as this bird stays fast, it could follow almost any other aircraft in turns - it wasn't very hard to gain shooting solutions against turning planes.

This bird can fight just about anything in equal terms with speed. If it is on the offensive, it can even confidently engage in low speed maneuverability contests. However, once pressed to very bad situations, typically at low speeds and altitudes, while seemingly more forgiveable and stable than the 190s, it was very difficult to escape the situation. Whereas a 190 might have a chance in accelerating away with its superior speed, the Ta152, though it puts up a much more wild fight than the Fw190, will eventually be shot down.

The suggested tactics, according to its flight characteristics, seem to be somewhere between the typical Fw190 and the typical Bf109. The pre-engagement requirements are simular to the Fw190, but if alt and speed advantage is aquired, its fighting style can resemble the more dynamic Bf109.

All in all, it's as expected. If basic SA is with the pilot, then this bird, is befitting to Reschke's words; "the Ta152 was my life insurance during the war".

ps) The visibility, is not as bad it seems. If someone can stand and fight in the Fw190 cockpit, he'll be able to do the same inside the Ta.

FW190fan
03-04-2004, 05:13 AM
The firing solutions are exactly whats blowing my mind.

The Ta-152 turns so well that I am blacking out alot. It is amazing to hold planes in your gunsight through hard turns, where normally you would break away and extend.

The Ta just latches on and doesn't let go.

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

r0xtilux
03-04-2004, 06:04 AM
Anybody got any solutions for the flat-spins? I've tried everything - flaps, gear, rudder input, aileron input, elevator input, engine off/on - everything - and nothing gets me out of it. Any success?

Zen--
03-04-2004, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by r0xtilux:
Anybody got any solutions for the flat-spins? I've tried everything - flaps, gear, rudder input, aileron input, elevator input, engine off/on - everything - and nothing gets me out of it. Any success?

I've had decent success with applying rudder in the same direction as the flat spin and throttling down. It seems to work pretty well, though not always.

-Zen-

ElfunkoI
03-04-2004, 07:25 AM
As soon as it comes on I do opposite rudder and maybe some nose down stick input (but no roll input). It prolly helped I already had combat flaps down.

My findings are similar, though I flew it with 100% PP on the deck at low speed against the Mustang D20. The (Cessna, lol) 152 can outclimb the mustang at this altitude. I wound up with a 1km advantage because she just floats. The stall speed in verticle manuevers is VERY low, like he said 80kph is like what I saw. When I had this 1km advantage the Mustang zoomed up and peppered me (as I was waiting for him to stall before I zoomed down) and of the three strikes one .50 took out the revi. That was my second flight of the Ta-152, so half the time the revi is blown away. :)

Definately stay on the offensive. Use that Mw-50. Take time to learn the CEM if you are going to use manual PP, or you will overheat throughout the dogfight like I did (and according to Zen I was also missing out on some performance).

P.S. You have giant sail wings now. Make sure on headon's, BnZ. etc that when you pass the target a wing doesn't clip them. :D

"A6?:):):) Will be A6!"

robban75
03-04-2004, 07:28 AM
One question, at what altitude does the Ta 152 gain parity in terms of speed with the D-9, and at what alt does it outclimb the D-9?

Thanks for any reply!:)

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

Zen--
03-04-2004, 07:33 AM
According to the object viewer, the H outclimbs the Dora after 6000meters and outruns it past 7500meters, anything lower and the Dora has the advantage.

-Zen-

robban75
03-04-2004, 07:39 AM
Thanks Zen!

I'm still curious about the Ta's topspeed down low. Alot of sites says 560-580km/h. But the chart I have says 598km/h. I wish I had a scanner so that I could post it here.
Perhaps someone with the same book can do it?
It's on page 154 in Dietmar Hermann's book about the Longnosed Fw 190D.



When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

r0xtilux
03-04-2004, 07:44 AM
whoops. never mind.

r0xtilux
03-04-2004, 07:46 AM
I have Harmann's book on the Ta 152; there's a handwritten chart in German that shows sea-level airspeed for the Ta 152H-0 as "540(580)" km/h - but it's not clear what the parentheses mean.

robban75
03-04-2004, 07:47 AM
That's the book about the Ta 152H your looking in I guess, funny as it seems, this info is found in his book about the Longnosed Fw 190D.:)

Zen--
03-04-2004, 07:49 AM
I can't speak to historical speeds, you guys with all the books have got that covered ;)

In game about 560 kph SL is the highest you can expect, 520-530 kph is a more practical combat situation because the 554 I achieved was done only with extremely careful flying.

-Zen-

rbstr44
03-04-2004, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Zen--:
Robban, Hunde and others, here is my first impression of the TA152
[...]
-Zen-


-Zen-, S! Glad you finally have your dream ride!

p1ngu666
03-04-2004, 08:16 AM
interestin read
lw fliers gonna fly like la7's now then
oh the irony :D
and accordin to russian pilot, 190 had crap acceloration..

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

robban75
03-04-2004, 08:23 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
and accordin to russian pilot, 190 had crap acceloration..


He probably flew a fully loaded Fw 190A-8/R8 when he did the acceleration test!:D ;)



When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

p1ngu666
03-04-2004, 02:42 PM
was in combat i think

against them

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

Zen--
03-05-2004, 08:41 AM
Any new thoughts on the Ta since a couple of days have passed?

Anyone else getting the gunsight damaged too often?


Edit: Speaking of spitfire durability, it seems that they are pretty tough against MK108 rounds. Objectively I'd say that perhaps 1 round in 3 is a knockdown hit.

(shots fired from pointblank against wings more often than not, big fireballs and black smoke, but no wing collapse or apparent damage)

Is anyone else seeing this?
-Zen-

BM357_Raven
03-05-2004, 10:13 AM
I flew this plane and thought to myself...awww Zen's gonna love this bad-boy.. Wonder when he'll post something about it....lol..Now, it's ahhhhhwwwwnnn, grab this sucka and come get me! Lol..

Everything you wrote about it seems to be right on to me....

"so more of an angles E fighter than a speed E fighter...." seemed an appropriate statement to me... Definitely a P-51 killa!

S~

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Zen--
03-05-2004, 10:29 AM
When's BM357 going to be running as AEP? Been wanting to try to the new bird out on your fine server Raven.

-Zen-

p1ngu666
03-05-2004, 10:32 AM
i tried spit against 109f4,190a4 and it was good
shame it really moves about when u fire http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
also not much ammo http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
also guns not that effective, perhaps the toned it all down?

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

LuftLuver
03-05-2004, 11:44 AM
Ammo effectivness appears to have been toned down across the board. I put 5-7 rounds of 37mm into the Ta152 and it finally conceded by catching fire. What a joke. ONE 37mm to any fighter plane should cause catastrophic damage, PERIOD. One burst of Mk108 should knock a Spit, Yak, P51 and most other fighters wings off.

On the bright side, should make for longer, drawn-out engagements. Still, 5-7 37mm hits to bring down the 190 is a joke.