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FI-Aflak
05-24-2004, 10:24 AM
I mentioned this in the complex DM for boats thread, but I think this deserves more attention.

We need ships to burn. Lots of ships were destroyed not by sinking but by catastrophic fires caused by bombs. I think PF will be incomplete without fire modeling on ships.

I.E. A bomb starts a fire, which destroys a few guns, but the crew gets it under control and puts it out.

Or, a bomb or two starts a large fire on an aircraft carrier. The fire spreads slowly as the crew desperatly tries to contain it. Eventually, the carrier is little more than a giant bonfire floating in the pacific, which will burn for several days unless someone decides to sink the wreck first.

I think PF should have this. Has there been any word from Luthier about this?

FI-Aflak
05-24-2004, 10:24 AM
I mentioned this in the complex DM for boats thread, but I think this deserves more attention.

We need ships to burn. Lots of ships were destroyed not by sinking but by catastrophic fires caused by bombs. I think PF will be incomplete without fire modeling on ships.

I.E. A bomb starts a fire, which destroys a few guns, but the crew gets it under control and puts it out.

Or, a bomb or two starts a large fire on an aircraft carrier. The fire spreads slowly as the crew desperatly tries to contain it. Eventually, the carrier is little more than a giant bonfire floating in the pacific, which will burn for several days unless someone decides to sink the wreck first.

I think PF should have this. Has there been any word from Luthier about this?

NegativeGee
05-24-2004, 10:29 AM
Ships burn at the moment (lik if a turret is destroyed) but it seems to be largely cosmetic as you get fire, then smoking then nothing.

But I agree, it would be a cool feature http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

stansdds
05-24-2004, 02:57 PM
So you want each ship to have multiple areas from which smoke originates? I can see that as a frame rate killer, especially if you have a harbor full of smoking ships! It would be nice, but unfortunately computers are still so limited in capabilities.

Baco-ECV56
05-24-2004, 03:23 PM
Well in FB you allready get a big numbre of firs in a dogfight. So maybe just optimice the smoke, make it less polys, and volia.

One thing thow, once the fire is out, is there any signs of dammage on the ship?

Cosmetic dammage should be a must in every ship on PF I think.

NegativeGee
05-24-2004, 03:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by stansdds:
So you want each ship to have multiple areas from which smoke originates? I can see that as a frame rate killer, especially if you have a harbor full of smoking ships!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FB does this already. The larger ships have multiple systems that can be damaged individually.

Set up a Tirpitz vs. 4 or so Soviet cruisers in the FMB and let then slog it out. It shows off how this works at the moment.

I suppose there is a frame rate issue, but half a dozen burning ships does little compared to the slideshow six 20mm light flak batteries can produce http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Baco-ECV56: there are damage graphics for each bit of the ship, as far as I ahve seen.


"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - G√ľnther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

darkhorizon11
05-24-2004, 04:35 PM
Awesome idea but is it practical? I'm sure its feasable but sounds unrealistic...of course I'm not a programmer so I give way to a higher authority...

Latico
05-24-2004, 05:07 PM
What would really be cool would be to have, at some point, one huge billowing pillar of smoke rising high into the sky. Escpecially for the carriers. Or oil and fuel supply depots.

Baco-ECV56
05-24-2004, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NegativeGee:
Baco-ECV56: there are damage graphics for each bit of the ship, as far as I ahve seen.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That‚¬īs grate news (No, I didn‚¬īt know http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Thanks, I love the Marat damage skin in FB right now but as far as I could see it was the onlly heavy cruiser that had so much detail.

It will be grate to see the damage done from the air before leaving the area wondering will it be enought to sink the dam thing? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh and smoke will be a grate way of knowing if we need to find an alternate place to land when getting to our carrier http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Imagen that: you can home with heavy damage, low on fuel, and when you get there you see a towering inferrno where your carries is supoesd to be. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Kitakami
05-24-2004, 05:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FI-Aflak:
Eventually, the carrier is little more than a giant bonfire floating in the pacific, which will burn for several days unless someone decides to sink the wreck first.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or rather, will keep burning until the progressive fires cook up the ships magazines or fuel storages and the ship blows up. This is what happened to Kaga at Midway (as well as to other ships in later times, Yamato and Kongo being some possible examples).

All the four Japanese flattops that sunk at Midway actually catched fire largely because there were planes on board just when the bombs hit and aviation fuel is rather flemmable. It would be nice if this is modelled. We could try strafing cruisers and battleships to hit their floatplanes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-------------------------------------

NegativeGee pretty much said what I was thinking about FPS. Of course, the fact that in Pacific even a modest late war carrier taskforce will easily pack 100 times that many light AA weapons might prove to be... problematic.

IIRC the US fleet screening the carriers at Philippine Sea had roughly 600 5" DP guns alone.

--------------------

Baco-ECV56: Marat (aka. Petropavlovsk) was a BB, not a CA. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FI-Aflak
05-24-2004, 07:46 PM
I'm not talking only cosemetic damage.

When a 500 lbs bomb cannot sink a ship, or even a couple fo 1000 pounders might not sink it, they can still spell doom.

I want to see ships die in other ways than sinking. So I drop some bombs on a carrier. They don't compramize the hull. But, they can start fires that spell doom for the carrier.

You see, its more the death of the ship without it actually sinking that I'm after.

Tater-SW-
05-24-2004, 11:52 PM
I'll bump again due to the critical nature of this. The dev screenshots showed IJA tanks, something that isn't really needed (but cool anyway) given the few japanese tanks that saw service compared to the ETO.

Ships are THE ground targets, they are weapons platforms, and the strategic layer as well (least til bombing the islands of Japan).

If nothing else, use a simple set critical hit damage tables---take a look at the Harpoon rules (not the computer game, the paper/miniatures harpoon). It would be such a shame to see those beautiful models of ships just throw a couple smoke columns, then stop and sink. Heck, I'd sacrifice aircraft models for this in the short term (or long term, frankly) for better ship damage effects.

tater

PS--as an aside, i got bored and convinced some B-25s in AEP to skip bomb some ships, lol. looks cool &lt;G&gt;

Tater-SW-
05-26-2004, 12:18 AM
Another bump.

Aircraft have very complex damage models, no?

The game supports dozens of AI planes buzzing around, no problem. Why can't the ships have a DM, a fraction as complicated as planes?

Planes leak, what, three fluids from multiple locations. They smoke as well, and have fires that spread. Some plane have fire extinguishers. The engines have a few damage spots, and individual guns can get knocked out, along with 6 control surface damages, plus cables.

A ship could have a simpler DM, and still be quite complex. Fire could happen just like planes, but with different thresholds. Spread of fire is just a time modifier. Extinguishers are called "damage control parties" on a ship, have it try to put out the fire---extinguishers on all locations, not just the engines. Smoke is smoke, leaking fluid could be just oil and be 2d as a slick.

There are not that many ships compared to planes. Treat ships as slow, zero alt planes, give em some lovin'.

tater

abduffs
05-27-2004, 01:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FI-Aflak:
I'm not talking only cosemetic damage.

When a 500 lbs bomb cannot sink a ship, or even a couple fo 1000 pounders might not sink it, they can still spell doom.

I want to see ships die in other ways than sinking. So I drop some bombs on a carrier. They don't compramize the hull. But, they can start fires that spell doom for the carrier.

You see, its more the death of the ship without it actually sinking that I'm after.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thers something of the poet in you FI-Aflak. I agree entirely, a sinking ship is a moving and dramatic sihgt , at present ,they are not quite good enough.I have asked before for a simple ring of foam round a sinking ship, which all have (as air is displaced..)
That would be a start. abduffs