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99th Obsidian
04-21-2004, 12:01 PM

99th Obsidian
04-21-2004, 12:01 PM

Nub_322Sqn
04-21-2004, 12:08 PM
I always build my own rig.

I recently upgraded to a AMD Ahlon 64 3200+ with a Asus K8V Deluxe mainboard.

Runs like a charm.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

KGr.HH-Sunburst
04-21-2004, 12:14 PM
if you have the skills nothing goes above a home build rig ,but really it isnt that difficult ,besides its much cheaper if you know the right places to get the Hardware from.

i bulding my own rigs for some time now and never had any major problems and they all run very smooth

my current rig:
AMD xp3200+
Ga-N400pro Nforce2 mobo
Soundstorm onboard sound
Sapphire ATI 9800pro
1.5Gig RAM PC3200
Maxtor HD
LG studioworks Flatron 19" F900
AIR silver case (case modded)with 2x120mm fans+1 80mm fan
saitek X45+MS sidewinder Pro2 combo controls
Windows XP pro

http://www.freewebs.com/fightingpumas/

Black Sheep
04-21-2004, 12:24 PM
Absolutely, build your rig yourself - it isn't too difficult, and you really get a thrill when your first home built machine clears post and boots up - well, I did anyway http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If you're in the UK, give these two a try for parts:

http://www.scan.co.uk
http://www.overclockers.co.uk

I always buy any hardware I need from these two and have never had a problem with either.

---------------------------------------------------------
http://mysite.freeserve.com/ilsigs/Spitfire.jpg
---------------------------------------------------------
Per Ardua ad Astra

LEXX_Luthor
04-21-2004, 12:29 PM
I built my own, but if you are NOT comfortable yet doing that, then don't build your own and don't go Dell or any large scale manufacturer. Find a local computer shop in town that builds computers, a good one, and they will build your computer exactly how you want it.

Repairs if any stay in town, just bring it to their shop. For some things like internet or network issues they come to your house and fix you up at home.

Support small business. Supporting Dell is like supporting Microsoft and all their phone line menus (for comparison, IRS is a breeze to talk to compared to Microsoft and I assume Dell).

Actually, I have two (2) computers, the one I use with WinXP was built by a good shop here in town. The other computer for my FORTRAN work I build myself after doing *alot* of reading (and knowing what to read and what NOT to read).


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

BaldieJr
04-21-2004, 12:32 PM
Listen to Lexx.

The best way to get a new computer is from a reputable local shop.

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TD_Klondike
04-21-2004, 12:35 PM
-you really get a thrill when your first home
-built machine clears post and boots up


I get a thrill when it works if I just add RAM or a video card. Or ANY kind of card!

I think something a lot of people forget is that after a computer gets slapped together and everything runs, we tend to remember only the positive. It can be a very frustrating experience at times, and it may take some research and patience. Whatever you do, don't give up. I'm completely convinced that when it comes to putting computers together, persistence is far more valuable than knowledge.

For example, I upgraded my motherboard about a month ago. I use an Audigy soundcard, and the new motherboard had an n-force soundstorm. In order to get my soundcard to work, I had to remove the card and drivers, install the n-force drivers, re-install my soundcard, and install the audigy drivers. It's impossible to prepare for some of the hurdles which you may or may not encounter, but the payoff you get by doing it yourself outweighs the frustration you could experience by an order of magnitude.

HayateKid
04-21-2004, 12:37 PM
A computer is a commodity with a 2-year lifespan. Just buy it at Dell. No need to go through all the trouble and expense, you're gonna replace it after 2 years anyway.

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi

Black Sheep
04-21-2004, 12:43 PM
If you really don't feel comfotable with the idea of building it though, I would strongly suggest you go with Lexx and Baldie's advice - you'll almost certainly get a better pc for your money and far better support...

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-21-2004, 12:43 PM
Build all of my own.

IMO, doing the research to find the best parts for performance, compatibility and budget are the points that have helped to educate me more than just about anything else.
\
I was fortunate to have a real PC know-it-all (as opposed to a self-proclaimed but really only knows enough to be dangerous know-it-all) as a good friend. I did all the research and just had him check my components and build at different stages. It was a very rewarding experience and since then I've built 6 machines (4 for me and 2 for friends) and am in the process of gathering the parts for my next iteration.

At this point it's actually a viable and rewarding hobby for me.



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

Supr
04-21-2004, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateKid:
A computer is a commodity with a 2-year lifespan. Just buy it at Dell. No need to go through all the trouble and expense, you're gonna replace it after 2 years anyway.

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A little trouble maybe, but expense? One reason to build your own is all the money you can save. That, and also not having to spend the next two years in various game forums trying to tell the developers how bad their game is because it wont play on your shiney new top o line dell, with the spiffy new gf4 mx graphics card. That's if you were actually lucky enough to even get an agp slot on the chopped in half mobo they used. But hey, listen to the dell guy. after all, its hard not to believe a guy that says the intel extream graphics adapter is the envy of all the gamers out there.

I'm just teasing, they do have a decent system that will play games. its about 2 grand. You can build it better for little more then half that.

owlwatcher
04-21-2004, 01:13 PM
Last 4 computers have been bought from
http://www.abspc.com/index.asp

First I look at the parts that I want in my system. So far ABS has what I would buy if I built it myself. There are no Dell ,HP or ABS just brand name parts. Main reason for buying was there were good power suppys offered and they are burned in. No bad parts.
Been meaning to build one myself just the cost and time.
Plus now there is the heat problem which must be address right from the start.Which a good computer assembler will address.
Take your time find what you want motherboard,VC,sound card ,power suppy etc.
Price it with your time.
Then decide to buy or build.

Please don"t buy a dell, gateway, HP etc.
The loss time dealing with their stuff is not worth it.All it does is add another layer of headaches to deal with.

Inadaze
04-21-2004, 01:17 PM
Years ago I bought and off the shelf AST dx2-66, it was the only branded pc I've owned.

I've built and upgraded so many since then I've lost count. I agree with Lexx, If you aren't up for building it yourself, see a reputable computer dealer and get one made to spec.

A handy hint I've learnt the hard way. Before you shell out your hard earned dosh on parts, do a search on Google, but use the word "problems" in the search... Nforce2 problems, audigy problems etc etc. Look out for conflicts with hardware you already have and be wary of hardware that has huge amounts of results as it usually means trouble.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif ~ Inadaze

VW-IceFire
04-21-2004, 01:22 PM
I built my current machine and I intend to build my machines in the future as well. Its cheaper and you get better stuff.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

BP_caocao
04-21-2004, 01:23 PM
Currently I have a Sony Vaio and at the time it was pretty top of line and I got an amazing deal on it(It "fell off the truck") Its been a rock solid computer never a complaint with its performance. (my net connection not so good tho) My next comp I am definitly gonna build as the one down side of the Vaio is that it cant really be upgraded.

TgD Thunderbolt56
04-21-2004, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by owlwatcher:

Price it with your time.
Then decide to buy or build.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with your post with the exception of this statement. It's much too relative. If I were to price it with my time, it would almost be marginal in comparison to having one built, but since I view it as a hobby and my time as MY most valuable commodity, I choose to leave the time cost out of the equation.

This may sound like justification, but I don't iclude my time when I play golf or go fishing, so I don't factor it in when calculating my most recent pc build.

But that's just me.



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

adlabs6
04-21-2004, 01:39 PM
I've purchased two PC's at retail, first a Tandy TRS-80, and then an HP 486 desktop. In 1998-99 I educated myself in how the parts work together from reading PC magazines, since I couldn't afford a retail PC.

In 1999 I built my own AMD 350Mhz with 32MB Ram and an ATI XPert@Play 98 8MB card. I then weaned myself from dependance on tech help for OS and most software issues. I just formatted my HDD and kept at it until I could install and configure DOS, and Win 3.11 in my sleep. Things are wildly easier today, with new OS'es that include native support for CD-ROM drives and most other hardware. I've built a couple more PC's since then, including my current system, and some others for friends.

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/sigUBI.GIF
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Petey78
04-21-2004, 01:40 PM
Mine's a Siemens-Hitachi PC with a 3.2Ghz processor, pathetic as it might sound, without the list in front of me, I can't tell people what the hardware is. It runs FB like a dream. I know more about aeroplanes than I do about PC's and since I got my PC cheap through work and couldn't afford a PPL this is the next best thing!

owlwatcher
04-21-2004, 01:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thunderbolt56:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by owlwatcher:

Price it with your time.
Then decide to buy or build.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with your post with the exception of this statement. It's much too relative. If I were to price it with my time, it would almost be marginal in comparison to having one built, but since I view it as a hobby and my time as MY most valuable commodity, I choose to leave the time cost out of the equation.

This may sound like justification, but I don't iclude my time when I play golf or go fishing, so I don't factor it in when calculating my most recent pc build.

But that's just me.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just matters how you view it,
I look at software and hardware time.
Prefer playing time then down time.Enough is lost just getting things to run smooth.
Also I only know enought to get into trouble.Self taught so it takes longer to fix.

carguy_
04-21-2004, 01:46 PM
I got to the store,choose components and they put them in the case.

I`d never recommend "off the shelf" systems though.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

CaptainGelo
04-21-2004, 01:48 PM
build it your self, like I and many other did.
oh yea DELL sux...

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif
"Big Bills suck, small Bills don't"&lt;----WRONG!!!! all Bills suck http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

oeqvist
04-21-2004, 01:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
I built my own, but if you are NOT comfortable yet doing that, then don't build your own and don't go Dell or any large scale manufacturer. Find a local computer shop in town that builds computers, a good one, and they will build your computer exactly how you want it.

Repairs if any stay in town, just bring it to their shop. For some things like internet or network issues they come to your house and fix you up at home.

Support small business. Supporting Dell is like supporting Microsoft and all their phone line menus (for comparison, IRS is a breeze to talk to compared to Microsoft and I assume Dell).

Actually, I have two (2) computers, the one I use with WinXP was built by a good shop here in town. The other computer for my FORTRAN work I build myself after doing *alot* of reading (and knowing what to read and what NOT to read).


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish _"Gladiator"_ listed as _J8A_ _...in Aces Expansion Pack_


_"You will still have FB , you will lose _nothing"__ ~WUAF_Badsight
_"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..."_ ~Bearcat99
_"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age"_ ~ElAurens
:
_"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore_!_"_ ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn´t go with the local shop. Those tend to go out of business very abruptly.

Has happened to me and when that happens you loose everything!

I would advice you not go local shop, not go dell or Compaq but go to a internet store in your country that has a good reputation. That can be almost as cheap as doing it yourself really.

Black Sheep
04-21-2004, 01:53 PM
For anyone who's not entirely sure of what's inside their pc (if thinking of upgrades etc) then go here (http://www.sisoftware.net/) and download the standard / shareware version of Sandra.

The wizards and so forth will quickly and easily tell you exactly what's inside your case.


Der_Doberman, if you have money to spare and can't find a local PC builder, you may like to have a look at these guys (http://www.alienware.com/) - pricey, but they build some beautiful (and very fast) PC's....

HayateKid
04-21-2004, 02:03 PM
Please show me where you can beat this current Dell:

3.2 Ghz P4 with HyperThreading
XP home
120GB HD (7200rpm)
128MB DDR ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
Free 2GB memomy upgrade
Free 17" flat panel upgrade

$1749

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi

Maxhome
04-21-2004, 02:16 PM
What Lexx said.

I had built 3 PCs up till my latest (i.e. the one I am typing on right now). Truth is, I'm not sure we can compete any more with the bulk buyers.

In the uk, www.cclcomputers.co.uk (http://www.cclcomputers.co.uk) is excellent. They give you a CPU/MB/case combo, and you specify the rest. I am very happy with the result.

More to the point, I couldn't have bought the parts and made this PC for less. Construction cost 30 - frankly, that is not a lot, to avoid the hassle of building. And I know what all my parts are, and have already fitted a new sound card, so can confirm that the internals are nicely done.

Buy it made, but to order, is my advice. And Dell I would not touch now. Had 2, twice upon a time, but if you play PC games, you will have pain with their systems. I wouldn't have another Dell if you gave it to me. Ok, I would, but then I'd flog it, and buy something else http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LeChuck59
04-21-2004, 02:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateKid:
Please show me where you can beat this current Dell:

3.2 Ghz P4 with HyperThreading
XP home
120GB HD (7200rpm)
128MB DDR ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
Free 2GB memomy upgrade
Free 17" flat panel upgrade

$1749

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To do that we'd need to know what kind of ram you have (PC3200, PC3500, PC4000?) and with what kind of timings. You'd also need to tell us how large the cache is on that HDD, whether or not you're using onboard audio, ethernet, firewire etc. Finally, we'd need to know the contrast ratio on that monitor, it's pixel pitch, viewing angle, and most importantly (for gaming at least) the pixel response time. Give us all that and then we can put together a comparable system.

Better yet, give us a link to this system on Dell's site so we can take a look ourselves.

Whatever the set up, I'm sure a homebuilt system with the same or better parts can be put together for less money.

LEXX_Luthor
04-21-2004, 02:28 PM
Yes, one must be careful in shopping for a local shop to build your computer. Some go out of business but its rare they do within the life time of warranty and another local shop can take its place for you. The small shop here in town that I use (now hehe) has been going 12+ years and serves the local businesses and town and county government--they wiped out all competition. You do have to research no matter what you decide to do. For a local shop, the trick is being comfortable in finding a reputable one like the other post suggested. Dell, build yourself, local shop, all these require you to be a smart shopper.

The neat thing for me is that for my first computer, I went to a shop just starting up by a couple surfer dudes. I went with them because we made a Deal. I wanted No Warranty if they showed me how to put it together (did alot of reading first so I would not waste their time). They were fantastic guys and very helpful. When I walked out of that shop, I never needed them again.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

the_Wakeful
04-21-2004, 03:16 PM
I just built a rig myself for $1000 almost exactly.
AMD 3200+
ASUS mobo (don't remember model)
1G ram
80G hd (small, but i don't need very much and it was cheap)
ATI radeon 9800 pro 256mb

It runs FB perfectly with settings maxed. If you don't want to build your own then do the local shop option. My computer before this one was $1000 at a local shop and I have never had to take it in to get fixed. It has lasted 3 years and is going to last another few at least (my parents use it now). NEVER EVER buy anything from Dell or HP or Compaq etc...things aren't very compatable with them and you have to send it across the country to fix it.

LeChuck59
04-21-2004, 03:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeChuck59:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateKid:
Please show me where you can beat this current Dell:

3.2 Ghz P4 with HyperThreading
XP home
120GB HD (7200rpm)
128MB DDR ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
Free 2GB memomy upgrade
Free 17" flat panel upgrade

$1749

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To do that we'd need to know what kind of ram you have (PC3200, PC3500, PC4000?) and with what kind of timings. You'd also need to tell us how large the cache is on that HDD, whether or not you're using onboard audio, ethernet, firewire etc. Finally, we'd need to know the contrast ratio on that monitor, it's pixel pitch, viewing angle, and most importantly (for gaming at least) the pixel response time. Give us all that and then we can put together a comparable system.

Better yet, give us a link to this system on Dell's site so we can take a look ourselves.

Whatever the set up, I'm sure a homebuilt system with the same or better parts can be put together for less money.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I went over to Dell.com and the model whose specs you seemed to be quoting is the base level XPS system and that is actually a fairly good price ($1,848) after shipping.

Now I just put together an Athlon Mobile based system so I'm not readily familiar with the cost of a Pentium 4, but I'd imagine

400 for the proc and mobo
65 for cheap case with generic PSU
380 for 2gigs of generic PC3200 DDR ram
90 for 120 gigs @ 7200 rpms with 8mb cache
80 for an OEM audigy 2
50 for dvd drive and floppy
90 for Win XP Home
210 for Sapphire 9800 Pro 128mb
400 for a BenQ 17" lcd
$1,765 including shipping (most shipping is free from places like newegg, but the prices I quoted for the case and monitor include it)

Those are rough estimates on prices, and I'm sure you could cut $100 if you shopped carefully. Also a RAM shortage was forecast a month or so ago and retail prices have sky-rocketted $30-$50 a gig in the past month or so. I doubt Dell's subject to such price hikes and so there's a big, but temporary, price advantage there. Also, by cutting the things you don't need but are forced to buy by Dell, things like a separate audio card (on board 5.1 sound is fine for most gamers), 2 gigs of ram (games are just starting to use a full gig), and an OS, you can save a LOT of money or put it toward better components like a more feature rich motherboard or a more powerful and stable Antec PSU.

My point is that while that is one of the better Dell deals, you still get more for your money by doing it yourself.

[This message was edited by LeChuck59 on Wed April 21 2004 at 04:55 PM.]

_VR_ScorpionWorm
04-21-2004, 03:21 PM
BoooHooo, sadly I have an Emachines....cr@p for gaming cause all carry a Celeron. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif...I do plan on building myself one though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

"We went like this, He went like that, I said to Hollywood 'Where'd he go?', Hollywood said, 'Where'd WHO go'-TOPGUN

adlabs6
04-21-2004, 03:22 PM
Ha! Good deal Lexx!

Also on time being worth money... yes in many cases. And if you have means to buy at retail, then of course make this consideration.

But I was never successful in converting my little bit of spare time into enough spare cash to buy at retail prices. http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/1/wink.gif Building for myself, and in phases of small upgrades keeps costs quite manageable, and keeps my system reasonably up to date.

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T_O_A_D
04-21-2004, 03:31 PM
Built by Toad http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I try to build all my friends an relatives too, Or at least over see a new convert build thiers.

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
131st_Toad's Squad link (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
2.11 drivers (http://home.mchsi.com/~131st-vfw/NaturalPoint_trackIR_2_11.exe)
http://home.mchsi.com/~131st_vfw/T_O_A_D.jpg

Bearcat99
04-21-2004, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateKid:
Please show me where you can beat this current Dell:
3.2 Ghz P4 with HyperThreading
XP home
120GB HD (7200rpm)
128MB DDR ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
Free 2GB memomy upgrade
Free 17" flat panel upgrade
$1749
"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL!!! Free monitor & memory huh... LMAO.. you are paying $1749 for it!!! Free!! LMAO.. I work in the PC dept part time at my local Best Buy here in Woodbridge..... We have a HP AMD64 2.0G,200MB7200RPMHD (8M cache),512 DDR3200RAM,DVD+/-RW.17'Flat Panel w 24ms time CR of 400:1,FX5200 and a printer for $1449 after rebates.... swap the 5200 for a 9800Pro and add 512 of RAM (catch a sale) and you are in business and you will blow that rig away.
We get so many people in the store who have Dells... thier service sucks, they use proprietary parts in many of thier machines, the same can be said for Gateway from what I hear from extremely dissatisfied customers. I built my last 2 computers and I will NEVER buy off the shelf again. If you must do it locally like some have said.. it may cost you more but.... Plus by building your own you diont have to buy a service contract. We sell them but I would never buy one...for a laptop definitely.. but a desk top..no way.. anything that goes wrong Ill fix it myself.. If I cant fix it.. I'll hit up Hunter or Steve or anybody else here....9 times out of ten if they cant help directly they lead me in the right direction You may pay a little more to build it yourself.. but you will know that you have decent parts in there.... those cheap boxes? Guess what... most of them are just that cheap boxes with cheap parts... the HPs use ASUS mobos in some of thier better machines... the Emachines now use MSI MOBOs and ASUS in some of thier higher end stuff.... but build your own. It isnt hard. If worse come to worse... you and Val hop in the ride and take a 4-5 hour trip to Virginia, bunk up with your CO and his crew for the weekend toss a few brews... hook up with Obsidian & Mo.... maybe check out the Dulles Air and Space Museum....and go home on Sunday after church with a decent rig that you will know inside and out.


Seriously........ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Athalon +2500 Barton OCd to 2.1GHZ (35-40Deg.C)
ASUS A7N8X D w Nvidia Soundstorm onboard sound
Radeon 9800 Pro 128
1G Crucial DDR400
120G Maxtor 7200 HD (8M cache)
Samsung 17' Synch Master 753DF CRT Monitor
Antec 400W PS
MSFFB2
Saitek X45
CHPro USB Pedals
MS Natural MM keyboard
Logitech PS2 Trackball Mouse
Logitech Z640 5.1 Speakers
Logitech USB 300 Headphones
TIR 2 (en route)
Win XP Pro

That rig cost me under a grand. Granted it took a while to put together.... and for the rebates to come back.. plus for some of that stuff I used my employee discount at BB...
You may go over but even if you spent $500 more... you get the picture...

P.S
No charge for the lessons and the service.... just pay for parts. Check your PTs in about an hour. Im going to rustle up some prices for you.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
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[This message was edited by Bearcat99 on Wed April 21 2004 at 07:19 PM.]

crazyivan1970
04-21-2004, 04:27 PM
home baked, both of them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Lav69
04-21-2004, 04:31 PM
I have built 4 now. The very first some years ago I got a local comp shop to seat the heat sink on mobo, then put mobo in case, I did the rest. If you are nervous or aprehensive about building your first comp, I highly recommend going that route. But now it truly is easy. My last one I built for for my father in law and had it built completely and running windows xp in 3 hours. Just do some research on the net, educate yourself and truly is a piece of cake and alot cheaper. Quit throwing your money away to the retailers, who screw you with non-upgradable mobo's and cheap parts.

_______________
I'm fixin to.

Afreaka
04-21-2004, 05:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Der_Doberman:
For many of us, a new faster rig would make FB run better. I've been advised to "build my own" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My computer is made up of old and new, but never completly new. My monitor is from the early 90's, harddrives mid 90's and so on. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Rex Kramer(Airplane, 1980): Do you know what it's like to fall in the mud and get kicked... in the head... with an iron boot? Of course you don't, no one does. It never happens. It's a dumb question... skip it.

LW_Icarus
04-21-2004, 05:09 PM
Homebuilt, switched from apple/macintosh when they all became unitized, and not upgradeable.worked as a repair tech for a small Apple reseller.

Machine was built evolotuion-style, started out with a free PII 400mhz, immediately got a cheap mobo and processor, 1.8 celeron, and a cruddy radeon 7000 just to make it work.

that machine basically is no more, upgraded up to a gigabyte 8IPE1000pro board, P4 3.0ghz, 9800pro 128mb, 1 gig of 2700 ram, 120 gig SATA and 2 40 gig IDE drives, got it in the "Z" case . got a thermaltake"butterfly" power supply but I question its quality a little and have been looking at a better one.

its pretty reliable,I screw with it alot and sometimes make a mistake or two, create conflicts and stuff. other than user inflicted problems though its never hiccupped.

be careful with the Bios, especially flashing it. get a dual bios board if ya can, I have a dead gigabyte board becouse a re-flash got interupted. no way to fix it save sending it in and warranty was gone, so upgrade time heh.

some people shouldn't own tools. hopefully you all know who you are. but if jigsaw puzzles don't aggravate you and you use a little care, building, maintaining and upgrading your computer can be a hobby in and of itself, and save you money in the long run.

beauty of it is the fact that you need buy almost no tools to do all your own computer work. phillips head screwdriver will do most of the basic stuff and for a couple hundred you can do most anything.

when you get really bored you can O/C it and see where stuff melts down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

ASM 1
04-21-2004, 05:27 PM
Other Manufacturer - Viglen (UK based)

They tend to supply machines to schools/Universities. Thats how I got this box, and the one before it - was part of a special needs package given to me in Dec 2002 for starting my MSc. It is ok, although not ninja by any means (P4 1.8, 512, 20Gig HD etc) but you can tell where they skimped - SB Live and onboard graphics http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Runs AEP with reduced eye Candy just fine, although I am desperate to put a Radeon 9800 pro in it and maybe upgrade the RAM - that's all I would do (unless I can get a cheap 2.8, 533fsb -max board supports) to make it last another year.

In any case, I cant complain, as I didnt have to pay for it, or its predecessors. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Come to think of it.... I havent had to buy any of my computersyet... My first PC was a "gift" as is the G3 iMac upstairs! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Given the choice, I'd do homebuilt or semi-built before going "off the shelf"... unless there was a REAL bargain to be had.

cheers

Andrew

http://home.comcast.net/~nate.r/ta152Hns-2.jpg

DaBallz
04-21-2004, 05:48 PM
I like Gateway for off the shelf machines.
Building your own machine may save you money
but it is more likely to guarentee you the
machine you need. Also the big manufacturers
charge big premimums for high end video and sound.

Constantly under construction is the best way
to describe my computer(s). That's the fun of
building your machine yourself. It's like
buying a computer on credit, but in reverse.

new video card, faster CPU, maybe a new Mother Board
next month. $150 here, $300 there, but no intrest
payments. Also no $2,000+ shocks for a new system.

My computer is in it's third major revision on this Mother Board.

Windows XP pro SP1A
ASUS P4S800
Intel P4 3.2 Extreme
ATI 9800XT 256mb video
ATI TV Wonder TV card
1 gig Corsair matched PC3200 RAM
SB Audigy2 sound
450 watt power supply
TDK DVD burner/reader
Generic 52X CD ROM
100mb Zip drive
3.5 floppy (can't live without it yet)
4 hard drives totaling 156gigs
ULTRA ATA 133 expansion card
LinkSys Either net 10/100 card
22in SONY monitor

No modem......

Daballz

steve_v
04-21-2004, 06:35 PM
I have built my last three computers, and a few for friends.
Computers are here to stay, and unlike women, men can understand them. While there is an initial investment in time and learning, the computer skills you acquire stay with you which make maintainence and trouble shooting second hand.

Longjocks
04-21-2004, 06:37 PM
Building computers these days is so damn easy. I've only ever built my own, beginning with nothing more than a friend's helping hand on my first rig. It's so easy that a blind monkey with arthritis only one arm could do it while being suspended upside-down by his testicles in a vice.

http://users.tpg.com.au/mpdeans/misc/midgesign2.gif "Thanks for the inspiration to rise above you all."

SwingerSpecial
04-21-2004, 07:51 PM
Brand name PC's generally come with generic parts, and generic PC's come with brand name parts. The "399$ special" may sound like a great idea on paper, but in the long run these tend to become very expensive investments.

The best indicator for local stores and their reliability is how long they have been in business. A lot of stores come and go, but the ones that stick around are the ones who put the emphasis on quality & service. "Mom & Pop" stores can excel at that, and they should stay away from the high volume low margin garbage (It starts with the 2nd vowel of the alphabet and it was recently bought by a company that used to have a bovine as their logo, can you guess who it is?). The "Big Boys" are great at churning out 2 million computers a month, but when it comes time to supporting & servicing these machines... how's the weather in Delhi?

When it comes to buying just loose components and building your own system - check the warranties before buying! What are you going to do if something does go wrong? Kingston brand memory might be more expensive than "Joe's RAM", but it comes with a limited lifetime warranty (as long as the memory modules are manufactured). Some manufacturers hide little surprises in their RMA policies (like 15$ "processing fees"). And keep your receipts for everything! Make photocopies of those disappearing heat paper receipts. If your board dies in 2.5 years, the manufacturer is more than likely going to start demanding some kind of proof of purchase. When shopping for a case, try to get a chance to see & feel the case from the inside. The computer wont care in what kind of box it's in, but a well built case might just get you out of having to offer the motherboard a blood sacrifice. Don't be stingy with the power supply either, I've seen failing units take the whole system with them.

Bearcat99
04-21-2004, 08:14 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gifGateway bought E-Machines!!!!! No kidding!!!!!! Wow!!!! They just got free of IBM what about 3 years ago or so?? All this time I thought they were an independent company.... when did this happen?

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
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IV|JG51Flatspin
04-21-2004, 08:25 PM
Absolutely 100% Frankenstein baby!

Bought a Compaq once back in '96...never again. Homebrewed is the only way to go for me.

Have it no other way.

S!
Flame resistant since 1988
=Elite=Flatspin
XO
The Wings of Freedom (http://www.elitepx.com)

Bearcat99
04-21-2004, 08:34 PM
OK...... 6 years ago....

Whoa!! it's true!!!

this is dated 1-30-04

GATEWAY TO ACQUIRE EMACHINES


Gateway becomes third-largest PC company in the U.S. and eighth largest in the world1

Substantial costs savings and margin synergies expected
Expansion of Gateway consumer electronics products distribution planned in the U.S. and abroad
Gateway expects return to profitability for 2005
Poway and Irvine, Calif., January 30, 2004 - Gateway, Inc. today announced that it agreed to acquire privately-held eMachines, Inc., one of the fastest-growing and most efficient PC companies in the U.S., for 50 million shares of Gateway common stock and $30 million in cash.

The combination will create a strong number three-player in the U.S. PC market and the eighth largest PC company in the world with: revenue of $4.5 billion (2003 combined); nearly seven percent of the U.S. PC market; more than 25% of the U.S. retail PC market; one of the broadest lines of consumer electronics products among all PC companies; and rapidly-growing PC sales in key international markets, including Japan, the U.K. and western Europe.

The combined company plans to leverage eMachines' established retail relationships and low cost distribution model in the U.S. and abroad to expand distribution of Gateway's successful and growing line of consumer electronics (CE) products beyond its existing direct channels.

Gateway will also adopt many elements of eMachines' highly efficient and profitable operating model, which last year generated approximately $1.1 billion in revenue, an increase of more than 40% over the prior year, and selling, general and administrative (SG&A) expenses in the mid-single digits as a percentage of revenue, coupled with world-class service and support and high-quality products. The fourth quarter of 2003 represented eMachines' ninth consecutive quarter of profitable performance. Together, the combined companies expect to drive significant performance improvement, yielding substantial cost savings and margin synergies annually.

As a result of sales volume increases, planned cost savings and other synergies associated with its acquisition of eMachines, Gateway said that it expects to return to sustained profitability for 2005.

Under the agreement, Wayne Inouye, eMachines' chief executive officer, will be CEO of Gateway and will be named to Gateway's board of directors. Roderick Sherwood III will remain Gateway's chief financial officer. Ted Waitt, Gateway's founder, will remain chairman of the board, continuing to play an active role in the company's long-term strategic direction, product development and marketing plans and other areas. Together, the three will lead an integration team comprised of the two companies' senior executives, that will focus on rapid finalization and execution of combined cost savings plans, channel and product expansion initiatives and other growth strategies.

Under the terms of the merger agreement, eMachines' chairman and principal shareholder, John Hui, as well as Wayne Inouye and eMachines' management team, have entered into stockholder agreements with Gateway that provide for certain holding periods, vesting periods and sale restrictions on Gateway stock. Under this agreement, these Gateway shares can not be sold or hedged outside of the defined schedule over the next two years. In sum, eMachines' management team is committed to an equity-based, long-term relationship with Gateway, focused on the company's future success.

The agreement is subject to customary closing conditions, including expiration of the waiting period under Hart-Scott-Rodino and is expected to close within approximately six to eight weeks at which point the above executive appointments become effective.

Channel Synergies, Profitable Growth
With its acquisition of eMachines, Gateway is creating a company with unique distribution strengths and synergies, some of the fastest-growing PC and CE product lines in the industry and a structure that will transform to a highly efficient operating model. The transaction is expected to take Gateway's branded integrator strategy and greatly accelerate it from both a scale and efficiency standpoint, creating a company with a low cost structure, multiple brands across multiple channels and geographies, greatly expanded points of distribution and maximum flexibility in its business model. Gateway also plans to retain its ability to integrate customized solutions for customers through its existing Consumer and Professional direct sales channels.

The company plans to sell Gateway-branded consumer and business desktop and notebook PCs as well as servers and storage products for the professional market through Gateway's existing direct channels. Gateway will sell eMachines' award-winning desktops and notebooks under the eMachines brand only through third-party retail channels in the U.S. and abroad. In addition, Gateway's Professional division will benefit from eMachines' improved operating model to be able to extend its product lines into the value-based PC category for its business, government and education customers.

In addition, the company plans to leverage eMachines' long-standing retail relationships and low cost distribution model to expand distribution of Gateway-branded CE products to the traditional retail channel both in the U.S. and abroad. Gateway is currently the number-one seller of plasma TVs in the U.S.2 and in the past year has introduced a broad line of CE products, including award-winning digital cameras, a full line of plasma and LCD TVs, DVD players and recorders, MP3 players and home theater systems.

Finally, Gateway expects to adopt many elements of eMachines' low-cost operating model, which has made it one of the most efficient PC vendors in the marketplace. The cost reduction plans associated with the integration of the two companies is expected to create significant SG&A savings.

"eMachines has created an operating structure, growth trajectory and reputation among customers that is a model for the future," said Ted Waitt, chairman, CEO and founder of Gateway. "They're bringing to Gateway a strong brand that has grown dramatically in value over the past two years relative to its retail competitors and one of the most capable management teams in the PC world."

Wayne Inouye, who will become Gateway's CEO upon closure of the transaction, was named president and CEO of eMachines in the spring of 2001. He implemented a new business model that revived a firm that most industry observers had dismissed. Under his leadership, eMachines has recorded nine consecutive profitable quarters, increased PC retail market share from nine percent in the first quarter of 2001 to approximately 25 percent in the fourth quarter of 2003 and moved the company from the number-six spot in desktop and notebook PC sales in the United States to number four in the fourth quarter of 2003. eMachines is now considered one of today's best run and most successful companies in the PC industry.

Inouye said: "This new relationship makes perfect sense for us as we continue growing our business and our customer base in the U.S. and abroad. Gateway is one of the most respected brands in the market and Ted Waitt is a visionary who is once again leading the market with innovation that others are scrambling to follow. Gateway has the capital, the scale, the product line and the management expertise to help us dramatically increase our own growth, and all of us at eMachines are excited to be part of the Gateway team."

Finally, Waitt said, "I've spent a lot of time with Wayne Inouye recently, and there's no better person to successfully lead Gateway to our future. He's a great, inspirational leader with world-class skills and deep working knowledge of our respective industries. I look forward to working with Wayne and with the Gateway and eMachines teams to make this company great for our customers, shareholders and employees."

Editors Note
A conference call for analysts will be held today at 9am EST/6am PST, and a separate call be will be held for media at 11am EST/8am PST. For both calls, the dial-in number is 210-234-8220 and the password is Gateway.



About Gateway
Since its founding in 1985, Gateway (NYSE: GTW) has been a technology and direct-marketing pioneer, using its call centers, web site and retail network to build direct customer relationships. As a branded integrator of personalized technology solutions, Gateway offers consumers, businesses and schools a wide range of thin TVs, digital cameras, connected DVD players, enterprise systems and other products, which work seamlessly with its award-winning line of PCs. Gateway is America's second most admired computer company, according to Fortune magazine3, and its products and services received more than 130 awards and honors last year. Visit www.gateway.com (http://www.gateway.com) for more information.

About eMachines, Inc.
Recently noted the No. 4 top-selling desktop and notebook PC vendor in the United States by industry analysts IDC, eMachines, Inc. is a privately held company dedicated to providing consumers with affordable, high-value personal computers. Incorporating the same high-quality, brand-name components as other major PC brands, eMachines is able to offer premium value to its customers by working closely with its manufacturing and retail partners, and by strictly maintaining one of the lowest operating costs in the PC industry. Since inception, eMachines has shipped more than six million PCs through leading national and international retailers, catalog and online merchandisers. For more information, visit www.emachines.com (http://www.emachines.com).
1 Source: IDC 2003 PC shipment data
2 Source: NPD and Gateway retail sales data
3 Source: Fortune magazine, March 3, 2003

Special Note
This press release contains forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties, as well as assumptions that, if they do not materialize or prove incorrect, could cause Gateway's results to differ materially from those expressed or implied by such forward-looking statements. All forward-looking information related to results is subject to finalization of results, including appropriate adjustments to returns and inventory, and completion of its year-end audit. All statements, other than statements of historical fact, are statements that could be forward-looking statements, including any projections or preliminary estimates of future financial and operating performance; any statements of plans, strategies and objectives of management for future operations; any statements regarding proposed new products, services or developments; statements of belief and any statement of assumptions underlying any of the foregoing. The risks that contribute to the uncertain nature of these statements include, among others, the risk that the transaction will not close; that the businesses will not be integrated successfully to achieve the expected results; disruption from the merger that could adversely impact relationships with customers, suppliers and employees; competitive factors and pricing pressures, including the impact of aggressive pricing cuts by larger competitors; general conditions in the personal computing industry, including changes in overall demand and average selling prices, shifts from desktops to mobile computing products and information appliances and the impact of new microprocessors and operating software; the ability to transform the company to a technology solutions provider and restructure its operations and cost structure; component supply shortages; short product cycles; the ability to access new technology; infrastructure requirements; risks of international business; foreign currency fluctuations; ability to grow in e-commerce; risks of minority equity investments; risks relating to new or acquired businesses, joint ventures and strategic alliances; risks related to financing customer orders; changes in accounting rules; the impact of litigation and government regulation generally; inventory risks due to shifts in market demand; changes in product, customer or geographic sales mix; the impact of employee reductions and management changes and additions; and general economic conditions, and other risks described from time to time in Gateway's Securities and Exchange Commission periodic reports and filings. Gateway assumes no obligation to update any forward-looking statements to reflect events that occur or circumstances that exist after the date on which they were made.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
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HunterZer0
04-21-2004, 08:35 PM
I built my current machine, but it's getting a bit old now. Almost time for a new machine, and I can guarantee it will be custom built as well.

A warning to those who buy their machine from the local corner PC shop - This is still fraught with danger if you don't specifically order the machine part by part, especially if you go for a 'budget special'.

Say NO to onboard video, reasearch video cards to determine which is the most cost effective one for you, and make sure the motherboard is a decent one with the fastest bus speed available and plenty of RAM slots/expansion slots.

Oh, and get a good case that has plenty of room and is easy to work on! Some of the cheaper cases have flimsy thin metal and no rolled edges = cut fingers if you're not careful. Get something decent like a Lian-Li.

- HZ

Bearcat99
04-21-2004, 08:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HunterZer0:
I built my current machine, but it's getting a bit old now. Almost time for a new machine, and I can guarantee it will be custom built as well.

A warning to those who buy their machine from the local corner PC shop - This is still fraught with danger if you don't specifically order the machine part by part, especially if you go for a 'budget special'.

Say NO to onboard video, reasearch video cards to determine which is the most cost effective one for you, and make sure the motherboard is a decent one with the fastest bus speed available and plenty of RAM slots/expansion slots.

Oh, and get a good case that has plenty of room and is easy to work on! Some of the cheaper cases have flimsy thin metal and no rolled edges = cut fingers if you're not careful. Get something decent like a Lian-Li.
- HZ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good advice.. also consider that the MOBO should be able to take multiple types of RAM.. for instance.. when I upgraded for CFS3 from a 233MHZPII to an AMDXP1600 my MOBO took SD & DDR266RAM. I used my SD RAM till I could afford to buy the DDR RAM... that SDRAM? Itis now in my kid's computers... the old MOBO,CPU &DDR ? Thats in a new case with the same HD & PS and a Nvidia Ti4400 that I got for $20.... it's now my wifes rig and she loves it. You want to make your upgrades flow.... upwards and downwards. I use the old 233 rig now as a print server for the family network. You are much betteroff building your own. It isnt like in the old days where you had to set IRQs and DMAs and all that.... Onboard sound is OK provided you get a dedent MOBO with say Nvidias Soundstorm APU... otherwise get at least an Audigy or an equvalent sound card. If your MOBO can handle say DDR400RAM like mine, even though the FSB is going at 333 do it. I only paid $95 for each stick of RAM.
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MatuDa
04-22-2004, 12:27 AM
If you have to ask whether to build own or buy from a manufacturer you probably should consult a RL friend who has built some computers because otherwise you might end with a pile of stuff that cost lots and is only good for modern art, non-funtional.

If you know what you want it is better to build it yourself/with a friend. If you have no computer-savvy friends then buying a ready package that has been tested by a gaming magazine or site is a decent compromise.

Whey you build your own machine there are some components which should be chosen very carefully;

Motherboard: You want it to support future technology as well as possible so if I was buying a new one now it would have FIrewire, USB2.0, SerialATA and at least DDR400 memory bus even if I decided to go for a IDE harddrive and a 333mhz FSB processor. That way you will be able to upgrade in the future without having to buy all new stuff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A good case with a silent and powerful power supply also carries on from one computer to the next.. I've had the same case for last 3 gaming rigs. Saves money to invest in this. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

Very good audio is often on good mobos so you dont need a soundcard necessarily

Last but not least: Do NOT get the cheapest monitor in its sizeclass, you will be paying lots of $ later for glasses/contacts doing so. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

hope it helps,

matuda

crazyivan1970
04-22-2004, 12:29 AM
Funny thing is...putting computer together takes 1 hour...maybe 2 - but everything else (OS and all other tweaks
)might take days LOL

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Kozedub
04-22-2004, 01:40 AM
My first was VAIO-SONY...And that's the last one for retail rigs, for me - salvaged hard drive from it and CPU (2.53 P4 533FSB) and, still ok for now, 1 Gig of 2100 DDR RAM...( waiting for stupid prices for Corsair 3200 get lower http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif ) just bought ATI 9800PRO, and new mobo (Gigabyte 8KNXP ( I know that PCIX and new socket types are comming, but needed something upgradable fast for my ATI(had a good deal on it) - old mobo didn't have an AGP slot!!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif thanks SONY!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif ...So, this one going to be a work in progress and I happened to find that I enjoy working with PC hardware( I liked CPU installation the most http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ) and the sound of PC you just put together (prefferably soft and quite) is really rewarding...So never,ever,ever, ever...well, you've got the idea, i am buying PC in store...

ASM 1
04-22-2004, 02:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
I like Gateway for off the shelf machines.
Building your own machine may save you money
but it is more likely to guarentee you the
machine you need. Also the big manufacturers
charge big premimums for high end video and sound.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My first PC was a Gateway! or rather Gateway 2000 as they were then. Thought I was getting a ninja PC when I was told it was a P90 (in the days when P60 - P75 were about the going rate) Had a really nice flat CRT 15" Vivitron monitor - which I've still got as a spare (sony rebadged I think) Then I discovered it wasn't so ninja - that P90 was on a socket 5 board - no secondary level cache. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Still it lasted me a good few years with various upgrades. Would have bought another, but gateway pulled out of Europe a few years ago http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif used to be based in dublin.

Ah well - Dunno what the next PC will be....

Hehe just realised - am sitting here typing this on the keyboard from the Gateway - a branded microsoft job I think! LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif one thing about the viglen kit - their keyboards are really cheap, nasty thin plastic things http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif at least the ones I have had experience of anyways.

cheers

Andrew

http://home.comcast.net/~nate.r/ta152Hns-2.jpg

Nub_322Sqn
04-22-2004, 03:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateKid:
Please show me where you can beat this current Dell:

3.2 Ghz P4 with HyperThreading
XP home
120GB HD (7200rpm)
128MB DDR ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
Free 2GB memomy upgrade
Free 17" flat panel upgrade

$1749

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You usually get low quality hardware at Dell as well as a lot of integrated crap.

I builded my latest rig for less, but that's mostly because I can get hardware without tax added to it.

ASUS K8V Deluxe
AMD Athlon 64 3200+ 1600Mhz FSB 1MB Cache
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 256MB DDRII
Creative SB Audigy2
2x512 MB A-DATA PC3200 Matched pair Memory
160 gigabyte HD space 2x 80 gigabyte Western Digital with 8 MB cache
550 Watt PSU
24 Speed DVD-ROM
48 Speed CD burner
Logitech MX500 mouse + Logitech Keyboard
Logitech 6.1 Surround speaker set + Woofer
LG L1811S 18.1" LCD Screen
XP Pro + SP1

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

MatuDa
04-22-2004, 03:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T-ONub_322Sqn:
160 gigabyte HD space 2x 80 gigabyte Western Digital with 8 MB cache <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I prefer Eastern Analog to Western Digital http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Nice rig anyways, how's that TFT working for ya? I've been thinking getting that panel myself

ELEM
04-22-2004, 03:39 AM
I had literally "zero" knowledge of computers when I decided to build my own. I just got a few hints from friends, read reports and reviews of components on the internet and plunged in with both feet. I was suprised how easy it was. I've done it 3-4 times since then, and they have worked perfectly each time. The research and shopping around is fun to do and it's nice to "know" your components. I'm not one for "branded" products as you pay for a logo.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg

Nub_322Sqn
04-22-2004, 03:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MatuDa:
Nice rig anyways, how's that TFT working for ya? I've been thinking getting that panel myself<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Works and looks great.

My squad mates told me that it was not a good move to buy a LCD screen but once they saw how it looked on a LAN meet they agreed that it looks great.

One time I hooked up my "old" IIyama 19" and quickly swapped it back because the picture is far more sharper and clearer on an LCD screen.

And LG has great support, 2 weeks after I bought it I noticed 2 dead pixels right next to each other about 8 to 9 CM out of the right corner.
I called the store first and they told me that LG does not trade it, you need 3 dead pixels.
So I called LG directly and explained the situation and the womand said oh, no problem sir, what's the serial number on the back of the screen?
I told her the number and she told me where and when I bought it and asked for my address.
The next day a new screen arrived via a courier service, I hooked it up and all looked great, called back the support desk, gave them my reference number and made an appointment to pick up the dead pixel screen.

No additional costs from my end, well 2 phone calls but that's it.

Now that's service.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

MatuDa
04-22-2004, 04:04 AM
Yea, that IS great service. The asian-based companies often take very good care of their customers, hopefully the rest of the world pick after them on that matter.

I think I'll try to persuade the local store to get one of those LCD:s for show and test it thoroughly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AWL_Spinner
04-22-2004, 04:16 AM
Built my own ever since I started gaming seriously. You get to keep a gorgeous aluminium Coolermaster case and slot new stuff in it every six months. Much more fun than dealing in whole systems from big corporations.

Although having said that, before I was a serious gamer I used to buy Dells and never had any problems whatsover.

Cheers, Spinner

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/spinner_sig.jpg

JG6_Oddball
04-22-2004, 04:59 AM
I saw a COMPAQ "gaming rig" at the store the other day, cant remember the specs but it was $3000 !!! I remember reading the specs and from memory I can build the same rig for $1200 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , I have never bought "off the shelf" I have always built my own. A side affect to knowing how to work on them is being able to take machines people throw out and fix them for next nothing, the 2 servers I have (20 person FB deicated and TS) both were fished out of the rubbish bin, $25 later ( 1 power supply) and walah...2 servers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
gotta go to work, post some more later

S!

PBNA-Boosher
04-22-2004, 06:00 AM
Dude, if you can't build, then definitely get a Dell. My Dell runs FB even though it's 8 years old! AND it's never been upgraded! Yeah, it's dragging along, and on missions with more than 15 objects or more than 7 planes in the air I start to crap out, but I can still fly AEP!

Jagdgeschwader2
04-22-2004, 06:04 AM
I just put this one together. I bought a lot of parts on e-Bay that were new and still shrink-wrapped and that saved me lots of $$$. Just be careful of who you buy from on e-Bay.
The C109 ATX tower from www.jinco.com (http://www.jinco.com) is in my opinion
the best case you can buy. It's solid steel with casters and tons of room. I want to get a 21" flat panel monitor but I hear they are no good for gaming due to slow refresh times so I guess I will have to wait. If you can use a screwdriver then you're a PC tech so build your own. Search on the net to find the cheapest parts possible and buy one piece at a time. After you have it all together part out your old machine and sell the parts on e-Bay to get some of your money back. Don't worry about keeping up with the latest hardware because you never will. If I never had it before then it's new to me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh and by the way if you have the old Sound Blaster Audigy with the live drive and you think your old live drive will work with the new SB Audigy 2 ZS it doesn't. Don't mess up like me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Also has anyone tried water cooling? Is it worth it? And more importantly how safe is it?


www.coolerguys.com (http://www.coolerguys.com)


US Robotics modem
IBM 120 gig
SIIG keyboard
Intellimouse explorer
Dell DVD drive
Dell DVD writer
Vantec drive cooler
Vantec hot swappable drive bay
Thermaltake transfer panel
(Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Still waiting for this to arrive)
View Sonic G90fb2 19"
Aver Media DVD capture
Thermaltake Volcano
Gigabyte GA-K8NNXP
AMD 64 3400+
Corsair TwinRam 1gig
ATI Radeon 9800 XT 256
Midiland S4 100 watt 5.1 Surround
Antec 550watt power supply

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/105_0532.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/105_0526.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~jagdgeschwader26/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/105_0537.jpg

A speck of dirt on your windscreen could turn into an enemy fighter in the time it took to look round and back again. A little smear on your goggles might hide the plane that was coming in to kill you.
Derek Robinson
From the book Piece of Cake.

[This message was edited by Jagdgeschwader2 on Thu April 22 2004 at 05:13 AM.]

[This message was edited by Jagdgeschwader2 on Thu April 22 2004 at 05:26 AM.]

[This message was edited by Jagdgeschwader2 on Thu April 22 2004 at 05:30 AM.]

[This message was edited by Jagdgeschwader2 on Thu April 22 2004 at 05:33 AM.]

Tully__
04-22-2004, 07:26 AM
Build your own. If you're not sure of yourself, bribe your local computer geek to come & help/laugh at you while you put it together.

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/legalsig.jpg

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)
Tully's X-45 profile (SST drivers) (http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/fb.zip)

Salut
Tully

BM357_TinMan
04-22-2004, 08:05 AM
HOME BUILT

Costs a little more, and you have to put in a little bit of effort in research to make sure you are getting what you want.

But it is WAY worth the effort to get exactly what you want with out all the proprietary background program crap H/P and others like to put on your rig.

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
www.bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com)

HayateKid
04-22-2004, 08:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_TinMan:
HOME BUILT

Costs a little more, and you have to put in a little bit of effort in research to make sure you are getting what you want.

But it is WAY worth the effort to get exactly what you want with out all the proprietary background program crap H/P and others like to put on your rig.

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
http://www.bm357.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right about custom costing a little more. In fact it CAN cost a lot more because buying individual parts is always more expensive than buying whole.

Dell and big PC dealers buy in bulk for their parts and so they get them cheaper. Even with profits added, their PCs are still cheaper than custom built same spec. (I still have to see a response showing lower price for the Dell spec I posted).

Background programs is just no big deal at all to remove. Not even worth the trouble and price of going custom just so you avoid the background programs. One month of using the internet, you're guaranteed to accumulate the same amount of junk anyway if you don't know how to protect yourself.

Custom is only worth the effort, if you have an exaggerated valuation of "getting exactly what you want". The fact is that "getting exactly what you want" is overrated. PC's are commodity items. You don't need to get exactly what you *think* you want. A comparable PC will do exactly what you need it to do, even if it doesn't have exactly the parts you want. And remember the 2-year lifespan. Your cool PC will be obsolete in 2 years; it will then be exactly what you don't want.

Buy PCs like you buy pens and save yourself the aggravation and cost.

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi

LeChuck59
04-22-2004, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateKid:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_TinMan:
HOME BUILT

Costs a little more, and you have to put in a little bit of effort in research to make sure you are getting what you want.

But it is WAY worth the effort to get exactly what you want with out all the proprietary background program crap H/P and others like to put on your rig.

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
http://www.bm357.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right about custom costing a little more. In fact it CAN cost a lot more because buying individual parts is always more expensive than buying whole.

Dell and big PC dealers buy in bulk for their parts and so they get them cheaper. Even with profits added, their PCs are still cheaper than custom built same spec. (I still have to see a response showing lower price for the Dell spec I posted).

Background programs is just no big deal at all to remove. Not even worth the trouble and price of going custom just so you avoid the background programs. One month of using the internet, you're guaranteed to accumulate the same amount of junk anyway if you don't know how to protect yourself.

Custom is only worth the effort, if you have an exaggerated valuation of "getting exactly what you want". The fact is that "getting exactly what you want" is overrated. PC's are commodity items. You don't need to get exactly what you *think* you want. A comparable PC will do exactly what you need it to do, even if it doesn't have exactly the parts you want. And remember the 2-year lifespan. Your cool PC will be obsolete in 2 years; it will then be exactly what you don't want.

Buy PCs like you buy pens and save yourself the aggravation and cost.

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessarily true. Though I used rough estimates in my previous post, they were accurate enough that you can see clearly that building it yourself is less expensive than buying through dell, even when prices for individual components on the retail market are unusually high as they are now with RAM.

maxim26
04-22-2004, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HayateKid:
You're right about custom costing a little more. In fact it CAN cost a lot more because buying individual parts is always more expensive than buying whole.

Dell and big PC dealers buy in bulk for their parts and so they get them cheaper. Even with profits added, their PCs are still cheaper than custom built same spec. (I still have to see a response showing lower price for the Dell spec I posted).

Background programs is just no big deal at all to remove. Not even worth the trouble and price of going custom just so you avoid the background programs. One month of using the internet, you're guaranteed to accumulate the same amount of junk anyway if you don't know how to protect yourself.

Custom is only worth the effort, if you have an exaggerated valuation of "getting exactly what you want". The fact is that "getting exactly what you want" is overrated. PC's are commodity items. You don't need to get exactly what you *think* you want. A comparable PC will do exactly what you need it to do, even if it doesn't have exactly the parts you want. And remember the 2-year lifespan. Your cool PC will be obsolete in 2 years; it will then be exactly what you don't want.

Buy PCs like you buy pens and save yourself the aggravation and cost.

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true for budget and midle level PC's. You are right here. It will cost less to by from DELL then to build yourself.

But this rule doesnt work for performance PCs. The reason is high margines, computer companies charge in this segment. Most mony such companies like Dell and HP make not on home users but on corporate users. And high performance gaming PCs for home users are very small segment of the market. It's so small, thet companies cant cut cost on bulk purchases. Thet is why we have such companies like VooDoo, Falcon and others. The tag price for their product is about $4000!!!

Recently Dell and Compaq launched their own lines of gemers PC's. And they build them by the same rules as Falcon and others. Compaq, for example, uses aluminium cases Cooler Master.

If you are in market for high performance PC their only one right answer - home build. The savings are huge. At least around $500.

An one more point. The computer market is so dynamic thet its impossible to catch up without constant upgrades. Thet's how I started to build my own PCs. From upgrade. First I add memmory, then replaced CPU, then graphic card. And now I don't have a single one component from the computer i originaly bought at the store.

Nub_322Sqn
04-23-2004, 03:39 AM
Same here, I upgrade my current system and sell off the "old" hardware.

It's a lot cheaper to upgrade parts of your system to keep it somewhat up to date and sell the parts that come out of it then buy an entire new pc every 2 years.

You can't even sell a 2 year old pc because nobody want's it unless you sell it for peanuts.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

Swivet
04-25-2004, 08:02 PM
Home built all the way! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It's fun to do and exciting getting all the parts together to run correctly with each other. It really is a fun project, when u have knowledge of how things work together. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif plus ya learn alot about them in the process. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Intel P4 3.0c MHZ 800FSB Processor HT
Windows XP Pro SP1
ASUS P4C800 Deluxe Motherboard HT Technology\800FSB
ATI Radeon 9600 Pro 128MB video card
Creative Sounblaster Audigy Gamer
Kingston 512 x 2=1024 GIG PC3200 DDR400 Memory
Antec ATX case w\400 True Power supply
Western Digital Hardrive 7200 rpm 40 gig
Western Digital Hardrive 7200 rpm 80 gig
Fire Connect 1394 Firewire Card
Logitech Z560 400watt 4.1 surround speakers
Lite-On 52x24x52 CDRW blk
TEAC 52X CDROM DRIVE blk
Samsung Syncmaster 950b 19" monitor
Sony blk 3.5 floppy Drive
Microsoft Optical mouse
Logitech Extreme 3d Pro Joystick\ Microsoft Precision Pro
(2) Nexus quiet fans\(1) Smartfan 80mm

w\/é"*

GT182
04-25-2004, 08:23 PM
Has anyone tried the LiteOn's DVD +-RW yet? I saw it for $89.00 and thought of getting one to install. It sure would be nice to save data on a 4.7gig DVD disc.

"GT182" / "vonSpinmeister"
www.bombs-away.net (http://www.bombs-away.net)
"Fly to Survive, Survive to Fly"

Hiriyu
04-25-2004, 08:54 PM
I've actually *never* bought a PC off-the-shelf (unless you count my old Ataris and Commodores from waay back).

My modern PC affliction started with hand-me-down used boxes I'd upgraded over time. When they've outlived their use as main units, they're either relegated to spare parts or loaded with HDDs and used for network file storage.

My current box is put together from spares and parts purchased from Ebay cheaply. It's not the bees knees or anything, but it suits my uses fine and cost me well under $700. It is very easy to put this stuff together - software config is more difficult than the hardware.

P4 2.66@533Mhz FSB (non-HT)/ 1 GIG PC2100 RAM / L4S5MG/651+ (SiS)Mobo / 80GIG HDD (Maxtor) / 30GIG HDD (Maxtor) / CD-RW / 16x DVD / 400W PSU / FX5200 (Cheapo Card) / SB Live 128 (another cheapo) / Onboard Ethernet / Firewire / 19" Samsung (955df)

WUAF_MJ_Prop
04-25-2004, 08:57 PM
homebuilt

Athalon xp 2800
gigabyte GA7-VAX mobo
SB Audigy
radeon 9800 pro
1g ddr400 ram
LG 52x cdrom
HP 9100 cd/rw
400w pwr supply
saitek x45
Logitech 5.1 speakers

game runs smooth as glass

http://grantd.darb.net/dancing.gif

JG6_Oddball
04-25-2004, 09:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
HayateKid
posted 22-04-04 07:57


You're right about custom costing a little more. In fact it CAN cost a lot more because buying individual parts is always more expensive than buying whole.

Dell and big PC dealers buy in bulk for their parts and so they get them cheaper. Even with profits added, their PCs are still cheaper than custom built same spec. (I still have to see a response showing lower price for the Dell spec I posted).

Background programs is just no big deal at all to remove. Not even worth the trouble and price of going custom just so you avoid the background programs. One month of using the internet, you're guaranteed to accumulate the same amount of junk anyway if you don't know how to protect yourself.

Custom is only worth the effort, if you have an exaggerated valuation of "getting exactly what you want". The fact is that "getting exactly what you want" is overrated. PC's are commodity items. You don't need to get exactly what you *think* you want. A comparable PC will do exactly what you need it to do, even if it doesn't have exactly the parts you want. And remember the 2-year lifespan. Your cool PC will be obsolete in 2 years; it will then be exactly what you don't want.

Buy PCs like you buy pens and save yourself the aggravation and cost.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no offence HayateKid but how many "home builts" have you made? I have worked on almost all "off the shelf" box's and can tell you they buy the cheapest crap, I just helped a friend with a 1 year old DELL with a 2.2 ghz cpu with NO AGP slot!!! it took me half hour to find out why I could not turn off the on board video (I had to flash the the bios to get that option), I have worked on several COMPAQS the latest being a presario 5000, it took me half an hour to find out what the mother board was!!! even with all the serial numbers (it is an FIC board a real POS) they dont want you to know what JUNK they are puting in there, the BIOS is COMPAQ with almost no options and the HD will not load or work windows corectly!!. you are right about there "buying power" but that does not equate to quility.
the best thing you can do is KNOW what you are buying( a truism that apply's to life in general) and if you cant do that find some who does (like this forum) mant people in this forum can tell what is junk and what is not, homebuilt is the ONLY way to get quility without geting......screwed!.

S!

http://www.geocities.com/rbmercsguild/pics/havespandua.txt

mentalFlaws
04-25-2004, 09:16 PM
Support small business. Supporting Dell is like supporting Microsoft and all their phone line menus (for comparison, IRS is a breeze to talk to compared to Microsoft and I assume Dell).

In general I gotta disagree with you LEX on this one. First if you are not comfortable with building a box yourself DELL is not a bad way to go. They are reasonably affordable and the service is great. My experience with small shops is that they over charge for building and have rediculous markups for components. Small shops are the reason why I build my own.

In the end tho, even if you dont feel comfortable piecing a box together do it anyway. It simply isnt that hard...like putting together leggos.

SwingerSpecial
04-26-2004, 10:11 PM
Ridiculous markup? LMAO! Ok, here's a suggestion: Go ahead and open up a retail store, charge what you feel is a "reasonable markup" and let's see how long you can live on oatmeal & ramen noodles with the margins that the manufacturers give you.

horseback
04-27-2004, 09:21 AM
I've built four computers now, and it gets easier every time. Just make sure you have some decent references, like the latest edition of Building PCs For Dummies, or similar. An ESD strap would also be a wise investment.

I'm looking forward to my next project, right after the new video cards come out. I figure that I'll be able to get an ATI 9800XT or GeForce FX 5950 for a reasonable price to go with the 3+ GHz processors I'm drooling over.

I've picked up good hard drives, CD/RW and DVD drives to go with a good quality case & power supply as they came available at reasonable prices over the last 3 months. I'm shopping around for a good sound card (in the Audigy 2 class) now.

Since the return rules for video cards, motherboards and processors are a little more stringent, I plan to get them all at once to make sure they work, along with the OS disk that you can get for $100 with them at most major electronics stores.

That will be almost $500 all at once, but when I'm done, I'll have a system that would cost me over $2000 off the shelf for less than half that, and I'll give the lesser of my two current units to my kids, after upgrading it's Encarta program. Everybody wins that way.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944