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View Full Version : Orochi feel op in duels



madkowtow
09-17-2016, 09:36 PM
This game is pretty well balanced but ive certainly noticed that the orochi seem to have a pretty good damage output with a ton of stamina and a couple of their moves that are really good cost hardly any stamina at all (storm rush) and they switch guard position really quick making them extremley frustrating to fight as anything but another orochi, I can tell something is up seeing as how it seems every other person plays them (in duels)

S4G_Elektro
09-17-2016, 09:43 PM
I think that the problem is in the defect, is too easy to use and can counterattack all your attacks.

madkowtow
09-17-2016, 10:25 PM
Ya I know they're specifically good at counter attacks, but it just feels like for how much stamina they have + stamina they hardly use + descent damage and range = op

madkowtow
09-17-2016, 10:41 PM
Dont get me wrong, I have killed them (mostly in dominion) and they are not unbeatable, it just feels to me that they have a big advantage (at least in 1v1 duels), maybe op was the wrong term

BlackfishPimp
09-18-2016, 01:19 AM
I think that the Orochi need a serious nerf, and I hope this happens when the full game comes out. Their Zephyr dodge slash makes dodging any top attacks a breeze. If you can't dodge it then just parry into wind gust. Their insanely op in a 1v1 and when you get into matches over and over again where the whole team is orochi it just shows how theyre not "Hard" to play. Whenever I play one I usually end the game with 10+ kills and no deaths. As much as theyre fun to play as I would be very happy if they got nerfed somehow, so it actually becomes viable for me to play another class.

madkowtow
09-18-2016, 08:18 AM
I wouldnt even say a serious nerf but seriously their moves need to take more stamina, seriously storm rush is so good and it takes practically no stamina to use and its really difficult to parryand hard to dodge.

S.P.Q.R_Oni-san
09-18-2016, 05:48 PM
Something needs to be done ...fighting them 1v1 is an absolout pain

Alexacoga
09-18-2016, 05:56 PM
You are inable to counter him if you don't atack first and you don't escape of his counterattack.

Vickers-mg
09-18-2016, 07:30 PM
Orochi will get nerfed, or this game wont last long because of such a class imbalance.

Saint_Dante
09-18-2016, 08:11 PM
Honestly, I used to think orochi was op too until I got better at the game. Sure the counter is anonying, but if you swing wildly at them, as I notice most people do, you deserve the damage they dish out. It took me a while to get used to using the Orochi as the block is extremely weak and deflecting certain classes such as the raider have very weird timings. I find raider much easier to deal with by simply dodging and attacking off of that. And if the raider is good enough, they will cancel their attack and destroy me when I try. Good kensei players are monsters and I struggle immensely against them with everything except the warden. I'll give you that conquerors are fairly easy to beat with orochi as long as you don't get hit by their shield bash, but aside from that, they balance well with most of the classes. Berserker and Orochi are fairly even to the point if the orochi makes a mistake they can lose half their health bar. Wardens are very limiting for an orochi as the orochi's only unblockable attacks are off a defelct or overhead and overheads vs warden are suicidal. All in all, if you can't beat them, 1v1 or otherwise, you probably aren't good enough yet. The skill cap on this game is really high, to the point i'm constantly learning new ways to fight from the people I play against. And trust me, getting destroyed in a dominion game because the other team has a kensei or raider who's good enough to 1v3 without revenge mode is extremely frustrating. I honestly feel stuck at the point between the really good players who are monsters and the scrubs who can barely win 1v1s by flukes, let alone hold a point.

BlackfishPimp
09-18-2016, 08:37 PM
I really hope so it's taken so much fun out of the alpha for me. Seeing full teams of orochi vs orochi takes so much away from the game. It's suppose to be warring factions but it ends up just being a game about samurai. I know im pretty good at the game I'd say I'd have a good chance at winning most duels but when I can't even attack without it getting countered into a combo by and Oroch, Id just rather uninstall lol

NiceBoatUS
09-18-2016, 08:40 PM
It's very similar to the Warden abusing the high guard.
If you approach the opponent with your high guard up, you put him in a very nasty place. Warden's high guard R1 seems to be faster than most of the side attacks in game and simply snuffs them if you both go R1 from neutral. This means it's extremely easy to force your opponent to stick to high guard to stop you from R1-ing him to death. Problem solved, huh? Well, not really. Once you're both in high guard, suddenly the Warden snuffs side R1s and all R2. If that wasn't enough, he can also counter your high R1 and get a lot of guaranteed damage. But wait, that's not all. He can also R1+R2, which has crazy range and tracking, R1 speed and is a side attack. He can also feint, throw and generally pressure with the shoulder bash. So you basically can't go aggro on him, because of his godlike R1 and you can't really stay defensive, because his mixups are really good. The only problem is you kind of run out of stamina while doing that, but you can easily disengage if your opponent is terrorized by the aforementioned tactics.

I feel like Orochi is pretty similar at that range, he just has less pressure and more counterattack opportunities. In the end it's all about the mindgames and controlling the spacing, if the opponent forces you to play his game, it's pretty obvious you're going to be at a disadvantage. It's the same with any other class - for example, if the Vikings dominate the duel and force you to remain deffensive, you're essentially done for.

Every class has its own way (probably several ways) to dominate the opponent, it's way too early to say which one is OP, since most people haven't even learned the combat system yet. We're gonna need a few weeks of competitive gameplay to see what's OP and what isn't. On a completely casual level the game seems A-ok, which is pretty impressive for an alpha test. Good job Ubi, I'd say.

Helnekromancer
09-18-2016, 09:24 PM
The orochi is no where near Op people just arent used to defending themselves and try slow overheads, if you guard break them and hit them with a heavy they are at half health. Once you get better at the game the orochi will just be a fly. Took me awhile to master him to the point in which i dont need to parry unless im knocked down because im confident that with my Fast atack speed and guard break combo i can kill anyone. Stop trying to nerf a class without even trying to think of a way to counter it. Conquerer is to tanky, Raider has an OP charge everyone has something that makes them op you just have to put in the time to find out, but the problem is the general mass of gamers are lazy and the ones who are putting in the work and figuring out the game faster than others and cleaning house. And what happens if they nerf Orochi and the orochi mains are still running circles around you what then? Just learn how to play the game for once, this isnt cod you're not gonna get gud just playing for 2 hours.

L1L H4TCHET
09-18-2016, 09:32 PM
yea countering should cost more stamina, so its more situational, but he's supposed to be agile, talk about that Raider you cant block or dodge

L1L H4TCHET
09-18-2016, 10:03 PM
Its easy to counter you fools because you tend to attack form the side your defending making your habits a weakness, easy to counter

guest-8ayAyRHK
09-19-2016, 02:50 AM
Honestly, I used to think orochi was op too until I got better at the game. Sure the counter is anonying, but if you swing wildly at them, as I notice most people do, you deserve the damage they dish out. It took me a while to get used to using the Orochi as the block is extremely weak and deflecting certain classes such as the raider have very weird timings. I find raider much easier to deal with by simply dodging and attacking off of that. And if the raider is good enough, they will cancel their attack and destroy me when I try. Good kensei players are monsters and I struggle immensely against them with everything except the warden. I'll give you that conquerors are fairly easy to beat with orochi as long as you don't get hit by their shield bash, but aside from that, they balance well with most of the classes. Berserker and Orochi are fairly even to the point if the orochi makes a mistake they can lose half their health bar. Wardens are very limiting for an orochi as the orochi's only unblockable attacks are off a defelct or overhead and overheads vs warden are suicidal. All in all, if you can't beat them, 1v1 or otherwise, you probably aren't good enough yet. The skill cap on this game is really high, to the point i'm constantly learning new ways to fight from the people I play against. And trust me, getting destroyed in a dominion game because the other team has a kensei or raider who's good enough to 1v3 without revenge mode is extremely frustrating. I honestly feel stuck at the point between the really good players who are monsters and the scrubs who can barely win 1v1s by flukes, let alone hold a point.

My Kensei shreds through Orochi's now. Over time, I figured out how to only attacking once at a time so they have a lower chance of parrying a lot of your attacks.

MtFalcon
09-19-2016, 04:24 AM
she can't take a hit to save her life. not like any other character. you're just hatin cause I probably sliced off your dome a few times. Seemed pretty evenly matched to me tho honestly if I made some stupid moves I got bodied real quick. And you can block all the spammers I never had a problem with aggressor orochi. My only problem was throwing smoke down and lagging everyone out. Ahhh flashbacks to the og cod

MtFalcon
09-19-2016, 04:40 AM
And why nerf the counter attackers ability to counter attack? if i couldn't counter then id just run away

Retro79120
09-19-2016, 04:41 AM
Honestly, I used to think orochi was op too until I got better at the game. Sure the counter is anonying, but if you swing wildly at them, as I notice most people do, you deserve the damage they dish out. It took me a while to get used to using the Orochi as the block is extremely weak and deflecting certain classes such as the raider have very weird timings. I find raider much easier to deal with by simply dodging and attacking off of that. And if the raider is good enough, they will cancel their attack and destroy me when I try. Good kensei players are monsters and I struggle immensely against them with everything except the warden. I'll give you that conquerors are fairly easy to beat with orochi as long as you don't get hit by their shield bash, but aside from that, they balance well with most of the classes. Berserker and Orochi are fairly even to the point if the orochi makes a mistake they can lose half their health bar. Wardens are very limiting for an orochi as the orochi's only unblockable attacks are off a defelct or overhead and overheads vs warden are suicidal. All in all, if you can't beat them, 1v1 or otherwise, you probably aren't good enough yet. The skill cap on this game is really high, to the point i'm constantly learning new ways to fight from the people I play against. And trust me, getting destroyed in a dominion game because the other team has a kensei or raider who's good enough to 1v3 without revenge mode is extremely frustrating. I honestly feel stuck at the point between the really good players who are monsters and the scrubs who can barely win 1v1s by flukes, let alone hold a point.

Basically the player balance is good for each characters so don't nerf anyone caused it'll mess up the game big time. I played the game and its awesome i used every character in game i still find myself whopping on everybody and don't get me wrong but their can be some gay *** matches because of certain mechanics in the game acting up and do to other players having better Internet than others and that also plays a big factor in matches as well. Me personally i play with the Orochi cause its my kind of character it fits me i like the Orochi's style play. And i did a lot fighting against every character so in actuality you got to have skill in this game and if you don't well.... that separates you from the good players. If your a good player you'll find a way to beat your opponent plain and simple that's what this game is about PURE SKILL, don't nerf anyone just because they're not good at fighting against an Orochi or any other character. This is your game Ubi you made these characters perfectly and flawlessly don't mess up the game's perfect balance of characters to suit other players needs whose bad at the game and don't know how to work around situation, thats when your messing up the balance of For Honor don't nerf anyone, Let the players continue working for those kills don't give the players who suck at this game a break then they'll mess up the balance that you Ubi promised us we'll get. For example a MOBA game like Smite the community runs the game when they want a character nerfed they get nerfed badly then the character is not what they were suppose to be, what they were promised to be but the community messed it all up cause they thought he was to OP even though they got characters thats high in power they didn't get nerfed cause the community want those characters they favor thats high in power to stay within high power but when a new character with high power comes in to play the community gets mad saying he's OP we can't work around him all that ******** even though he still can kill in battle. And one of the characters name is Susano'o he was promised to be a character with high mobility and high crowd control but they nerf both of his promised stats now he can't even do that much damage anymore and can't escape out of crazy situation anymore the community saying we can't catch him even they can they just don't want it to be a difficult task catching him whe he's trying to escape. The Smite community runs the game to the fullest thats sad and their game is really unbalanced. I don't want that to happen to For Honor, a unbalanced For honor game that'll suck like hell i'll be disappointed. All the characters in For Honor are perfect and shouldn't be messed with. No nerfs no buffs they're fine leave the characters be Ubi don't let players have it easy cause then For Honor won't be SKILL based anymore. With the upgrades with your outfit your weapons there perfect also don't change a thing with that either. All that needs to be fixed is certain mechanics in the game like wen u fall down on an enemy ur health shouldn't be depleted that low to the point wen your about to die within one hit from a player u falling down on a player to kill them suppose to be a cushion to your fall if not none of your health at least part of your health bar. Ubi your developers are doing great don't let the community ruin what you worked so hard on, don't make it easy for any players at all continue to let them work at getting kills, if they don't get good they just don't plain and simple and if they can't learn to get better then they just can't It's on them u handed them the tools and gave them a tutorial now its up to them to better themselves at the game. Ubi thank you for taking your time to read my important request it would be a Honor if you fulfilled it.

Z0MBIEROMMEL
09-19-2016, 05:43 AM
The Orochi Defense Force are out in droves in this thread!

http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/Node_Page/images/1310672082321.jpg

The idea of a counter-attack character is fine, but the Orochi can do a TON of damage off a counter and effectively force an easy mixup between spammy light attacks and guard breaks into more light spam. If you dare try to grab, you get stabbed. They are a whirlwind of spam in your face and they do too much damage. They need a damage nerf and stamina nerf so that they will get winded and need to back off and stop spamming. Then they should be fine. The proof is in the pudding. The amount of players unlocking and using Orochi is hugely disproportionate to the amount using other characters. I'm sure Ubi's telemetry will prove this, as well as Orochi's disproportionate win-rates even in the hands of subpar players who can't use other classes effectively.

As someone else in the thread said, if Orochi don't get nerfed, the game will die fast.

BeldhanFR
09-19-2016, 08:42 AM
i wonder how many of you did try the orochi?
the trouble is people are bad at fight a class counter, because the orochi can barely block, put stamina cost on him deflect? ok, put stamina on the block of the other class.
most people attack like crazy ivan, because when they fight a block class it have no draw back, but against an orochi.... you will die. less you attack better it is.

for information, berserker too have a full deflect defense, do i see people complaining about them? no, because most people was playing orochi, and i did barely seen a zerk. i guess the nobushi and the peacemaker too will be deflect character and people will be there calling for a nerf too? simply admit you wasn't good against them... me as orochi my trouble was with the conqueror but i'm sure some orochi had no trouble and i'm sure some people playing other class had no trouble to deal with orochi (personally i had none)


ps: if an orochi can spam deflect, it means you attack like an idiot without thinking... you deserve this punishement. attacking a counter attack specilized class is like inviting him to deal damage. how good player deal with the orochi? they don't attack and force the orochi to be the one to attack.

Ratash97
09-19-2016, 09:54 AM
The Problem is almost every class has a weakness but the Orochi has a unique combination of strengths no other class has with speed, damage output and ridiculous range. The Orochi defenders always say well he doesn't have any health but tbh that's just not true. The Berserker has the same amount of health and not nearly as much range or speed as the Orochi. If they want to keep their offensive capabilities in the game like that they should further decrease their health to have it somewhat more balanced. Now I understand ya'll defending the Orochi since you're so damn good with him but guess what, the game is a lot less fun for anyone else playing against a whole team of Spammy, Doubleteaming Orochi

Shinigami_PL
09-19-2016, 11:10 AM
As someone else in the thread said, if Orochi don't get nerfed, the game will die fast.

Nah. People will learn how to counter Orochis properly, is all. If anything, Orochis would probably use a bit less stamina. In my time playing this class (which was almost all the time), I hardly ever run out of it (although, I had stamina bar enhancing items on, so that might've helped), it was a stark contrast to Conqueror, who burns through his bar like a chain smoker.
The deflects, dashes and whatnot are just fine. If anything, an Orochi can't hold his guard up indefinitely like most other classes. And I'm sure that at least some of the remaining 6 characters (those not in the beta) will turn out to be great Orochi counters.

ARCH777ANGEL
09-19-2016, 08:18 PM
There's nothing wrong with orochi you just have to time your attacks better so they can counter they can't hold their defenses for long all Assassin's classes do this

EASTGod0fWar
09-19-2016, 08:49 PM
I don't understand what the big deal is about the orochi. Yes I played as orochi the whole alpha and prestiged him. But I have been defeated by every class with a good player who pays attention to battle patterns. If you can stun or guard break an orochi while making it unpredictable you have a great advantage against them. Its pretty simple. Every character has an unblockable attack and should be used in different combinations most people will use the same combo over and over again. Every move in a moveset is important for a certain situation or time frame you just have to know when. If you have shield bash use it but not in the same pattern. If you have stun use it just not in the same pattern. If you want to guard break use it just not in the same pattern. For orochi my hardest battles were guard breakers, unblockable attacks, stunners, and shield bashers especially if someone knew how to use them at the right time in different patterns. It made it very hard to get anything started and drained my health very fast.

Also this is a brand new combat system for a game so of course there will be a learning curve. You will have to grind your characters and learn all their different patterns to become the most effective. And honestly, nobody did that in the time frame for this alpha their just wasn't enough time to learn characters profiles perfectly. Balance is the key for a game like this and it will be a very competitive game probably with GB's and all, but it will become boring if each character doesn't have its own OPness to them. With that said they also have flaws u can exploit for each of them so u just have to get used to the learning curve.

I have a couple alpha montages on Youtube that even show how each character exploited my flaws and punished me for them. Granted it is my montages and I did win the rounds but you can still see how different characters punished me for mistakes or misreads I attempted. I was playing decent people too so it wasn't all a bunch of button mashers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjE-hMhWZoo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdDe-34ImDw

I really hope this game doesn't get nerfed the devs really did an excellent job of balancing all the classes and giving them all strengths and weaknesses plus there are more to come. I do like the suggestion about bigger maps for dominion that sounds great because it did feel a little cluttered but also these aren't all the final maps it was only 3 basic alpha maps. And I love the maps for 1v1 and 2v2 they are perfectly sized and proportionate to the surroundings amazing job. In my opinion, this game is already 100 percent balanced I don't think the idea of nerfing something to get past a game's learning curve or nerfing to sell more copies so lesser players can have fun playing it is a good idea for something as strategic and tactical as For Honor. This would be a better competitive game if people just learn the curve and find new strategies instead of nerfing.

ilyfuzz
09-19-2016, 09:42 PM
@EASTGod0fWar I TOTALLY AGREE

I got my Orochi up to Lvl 33 (one prestige +13) and have to say the larger Viking and the Knight with the shield were great counters to me.

Orochi has no Poise, anyone with a reach or good guard can take him out. The shield Knight can guard all directions by holding Down on RS, and Orochi depends on enemies attacking. If an opponent can read the Dash back RT, Orochi is skunked! His throws are super weak, and his Guardbreak is face to face only, and slow.

I think once people get a few weeks with the game we will see huge shifts in people's main characters. Not many people know how to Feint , RT attack, in any meaningful way yet, and with the 6 Heroes available it took me about 8 hours, before i felt like i knew all of the move sets, and what to do for counters. Then i had to learn how players would be mixing them up at higher levels of play, and that's when things get interesting.

HAVE FAITH IN THE DEVS: This game was playable summer of 2015, the balance is there. Orochi players just prefer a faster Hero with high risk/reward similar to berserker players but reversed.

Bruschetta.
09-20-2016, 01:17 AM
I haven't had that many problems beating them, you just need to be careful and not expose yourself to their unblockable stab after a perfect block. I think they could use a little less stamina, that would be a good nerf IMO. Otherwise they're not bad once you learn their weakness.

UL_BULLET
09-20-2016, 01:44 AM
I would prefer a nerf take away their unblockable attacks, and make their dodges use stamina

DCards09
09-20-2016, 02:36 AM
Honestly, I used to think orochi was op too until I got better at the game. Sure the counter is anonying, but if you swing wildly at them, as I notice most people do, you deserve the damage they dish out. It took me a while to get used to using the Orochi as the block is extremely weak and deflecting certain classes such as the raider have very weird timings. I find raider much easier to deal with by simply dodging and attacking off of that. And if the raider is good enough, they will cancel their attack and destroy me when I try. Good kensei players are monsters and I struggle immensely against them with everything except the warden. I'll give you that conquerors are fairly easy to beat with orochi as long as you don't get hit by their shield bash, but aside from that, they balance well with most of the classes. Berserker and Orochi are fairly even to the point if the orochi makes a mistake they can lose half their health bar. Wardens are very limiting for an orochi as the orochi's only unblockable attacks are off a defelct or overhead and overheads vs warden are suicidal. All in all, if you can't beat them, 1v1 or otherwise, you probably aren't good enough yet. The skill cap on this game is really high, to the point i'm constantly learning new ways to fight from the people I play against. And trust me, getting destroyed in a dominion game because the other team has a kensei or raider who's good enough to 1v3 without revenge mode is extremely frustrating. I honestly feel stuck at the point between the really good players who are monsters and the scrubs who can barely win 1v1s by flukes, let alone hold a point.

I agree with you on this. I think the Orochi was what peopled mastered first, and so people starting getting pretty op. against most other classes. I ended up coming across a few players who were Conquerors or Raiders who learned to fight Orochis - they put the hurt on me good. I also found that when in the midst of a full Dominion battle, they were significantly less effective than the other classes. I think it may just be a matter of learning the different classes and how to dismantle their tactics in battle.

Retro79120
09-20-2016, 11:08 AM
I don't understand what the big deal is about the orochi. Yes I played as orochi the whole alpha and prestiged him. But I have been defeated by every class with a good player who pays attention to battle patterns. If you can stun or guard break an orochi while making it unpredictable you have a great advantage against them. Its pretty simple. Every character has an unblockable attack and should be used in different combinations most people will use the same combo over and over again. Every move in a moveset is important for a certain situation or time frame you just have to know when. If you have shield bash use it but not in the same pattern. If you have stun use it just not in the same pattern. If you want to guard break use it just not in the same pattern. For orochi my hardest battles were guard breakers, unblockable attacks, stunners, and shield bashers especially if someone knew how to use them at the right time in different patterns. It made it very hard to get anything started and drained my health very fast.

Also this is a brand new combat system for a game so of course there will be a learning curve. You will have to grind your characters and learn all their different patterns to become the most effective. And honestly, nobody did that in the time frame for this alpha their just wasn't enough time to learn characters profiles perfectly. Balance is the key for a game like this and it will be a very competitive game probably with GB's and all, but it will become boring if each character doesn't have its own OPness to them. With that said they also have flaws u can exploit for each of them so u just have to get used to the learning curve.

I have a couple alpha montages on Youtube that even show how each character exploited my flaws and punished me for them. Granted it is my montages and I did win the rounds but you can still see how different characters punished me for mistakes or misreads I attempted. I was playing decent people too so it wasn't all a bunch of button mashers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjE-hMhWZoo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdDe-34ImDw

I really hope this game doesn't get nerfed the devs really did an excellent job of balancing all the classes and giving them all strengths and weaknesses plus there are more to come. I do like the suggestion about bigger maps for dominion that sounds great because it did feel a little cluttered but also these aren't all the final maps it was only 3 basic alpha maps. And I love the maps for 1v1 and 2v2 they are perfectly sized and proportionate to the surroundings amazing job. In my opinion, this game is already 100 percent balanced I don't think the idea of nerfing something to get past a game's learning curve or nerfing to sell more copies so lesser players can have fun playing it is a good idea for something as strategic and tactical as For Honor. This would be a better competitive game if people just learn the curve and find new strategies instead of nerfing.
Another perfect point thank you well said. Again people developers balance the characters out perfectly all u have to do is learn to deal with your situation if u can u can if u can't then that justifies the difference of your skill and others.

SpazzMaticuz
09-20-2016, 03:24 PM
Honestly, I used to think orochi was op too until I got better at the game. Sure the counter is anonying, but if you swing wildly at them, as I notice most people do, you deserve the damage they dish out. It took me a while to get used to using the Orochi as the block is extremely weak and deflecting certain classes such as the raider have very weird timings. I find raider much easier to deal with by simply dodging and attacking off of that. And if the raider is good enough, they will cancel their attack and destroy me when I try. Good kensei players are monsters and I struggle immensely against them with everything except the warden. I'll give you that conquerors are fairly easy to beat with orochi as long as you don't get hit by their shield bash, but aside from that, they balance well with most of the classes. Berserker and Orochi are fairly even to the point if the orochi makes a mistake they can lose half their health bar. Wardens are very limiting for an orochi as the orochi's only unblockable attacks are off a defelct or overhead and overheads vs warden are suicidal. All in all, if you can't beat them, 1v1 or otherwise, you probably aren't good enough yet. The skill cap on this game is really high, to the point i'm constantly learning new ways to fight from the people I play against. And trust me, getting destroyed in a dominion game because the other team has a kensei or raider who's good enough to 1v3 without revenge mode is extremely frustrating. I honestly feel stuck at the point between the really good players who are monsters and the scrubs who can barely win 1v1s by flukes, let alone hold a point.

Thats pretty accurate, as you play the game more and more you're starting to find out how do you counter that cheeky ninja. When you play your hero or "main" him you begin to realise the weakness of your foes and your advantages for example as you know that warden sweeping strike is nearly instant, swinged from right to the left you know that you need to counter that feature by keeping your guard your left (thats where sword should hit unless there is your sword or shield on the way) and as you play the warden just keep your sword on the left or aim high ( and so orochi will try guarding that direction) when suddendy you slice him in a half from the right as sweeping attack is so fast and you can't just react that fast or just try shoulder bashing if this does't work for you. As a wiking you can push him off the bridge or even throw him off it. If you're neither a viking just break his guard and then slice him, pretty simple.

Chaos_kid23
09-20-2016, 07:49 PM
They are a little more powerful than most classes, but the health system is what really makes them frustrating.

I played mostly as Conqueror, and fighting a unskilled orochi was no problem, but fighting a skilled one always went like this. First, you can't attack them first, there are 3 ways the can hit you if you attack them which you can't stop (step back counter, side step counter, block counter). They do pretty good damage, so even as a conqueror, which is a tank like hero, you can't trade hits with them without usually dying first.

So you have two options, you can guard break them if they get close enough, or you have to wait for them to attack. If they attack and you block it, you then have to options, swing with a weak attack R1/RB or guard break them. If you choose to swing, they can dodge you after you block their attack, because they can dodge during their swing animation. So you will miss them every time they do that. If you choose to swing, and they swing again after you block their attack, you will beat them to the punch and hit them.
If you choose to Guard break after you block their attack, and they choose to dodge, or try to block you attack, then you will connect with the guard break, giving you the change to hit them with one weak attack (R1/RB). But if you try to guard break them after blocking their attack, and they choose to swing, you will get hit by their attack.

So fighting an Orochi (which most people choose) leaves you with those options with are all predicated on them attacking you. Which is a little annoying, but doesn't necessarily makes them OP, until you factor in the health system.
The problem is when you get them to red health. You can't attack them outright, because they just keep dodging back, and unless you are another orochi, or perhaps a Beserker, you will never catch them. So you have to wait until they attack you. But when they attack you, the only thing you can hit them with is an weak (R1/RB) attack, which isn't strong enough to take down a full bar of health, so no matter how many times you hit them, they just keep backing up until they health bar fills up again.

That alone is what makes them OP, you simply can't kill them unless you force them into a corner. I got stuck in a stalemate with this one guy for so long in brawl match that my partner got kicked from the game due to inactivity because he was dead and watching us fight. And even though I hit him at least 10 times AFTER his health was flashing Red, he still came back and killed me because he was able to whittle me down when i couldn't kill him

ARCH777ANGEL
09-22-2016, 05:59 PM
no I don't he is op I just work hard leveling my character up

LordoftheBewbs
09-26-2016, 07:13 PM
I think there are many people that didn't make it to the general fighting level that I did in the last two Alphas. Not here to pat myself on the back but until you've fought people at a very high level and have enough of an understanding of the game (specifically the core mechanics) to really make an educated opinion, you're not helping by crying out OP or defending something OP. It was only out for a couple of days so no one is an expert. But the amount of misinformation and general lack of knowledge that was on the forums was astounding. I tried to help sometimes but I usually got, "DOOD YOU CAN'T PARRY UNBLOCKABLES L2P GIT GUD IT'S NOT MY FAULT EVER".

It's like people play a couple of games and then go on the forums and complain or comment. My buddy and I went into duel til we got each other and then tested **** out for hours. It helped us understand what the hell was happening with certain things that didn't make sense. I met better players during the TT (there is always someone better haha) but that was the rarity. Most people were awful, which makes sense as it isn't even out yet. There is nothing wrong with that but it's hardly a collective group to quantify a game with mechanics that run as deeps as this. A mechanic as simple as feinting, which is a combat essential as old as time immemorial, was used by very, very little of the player base I fought. And I played the **** out of this TT in all of its game modes. Even saw a dude put on the forum that feinting is a dumb mechanic and should be gotten rid of. K, what?

Fighting the standard Orochi wasn't really a problem. Anyone who hadn't played much wasn't really a problem, Orochis included. This game has a heck of a learning curve so by the third day unless I was fighting someone who had played as much as I had, while also being in the same skill level, I felt unstoppable. But when I came across a player who took the time to learn the mechanics, utilize his move set effectively, and was also a skilled player, I felt vastly outmatched. Not because the other person was better necessarily, but because I didn't have the same tools.

Let's break it down. The Orochi's Storm Rush. This move thing makes anything safe. If you block any of the Orochi's attacks they can backstep into this move. Not even a forward moving, vertical heavy strike has the reach to tag them. In fact the only thing that we found that could catch them was the Raider's lunging pummel strike. This might apply with the Berserker's move as well but I didn't test it. As the Warden you can only really sit there helplessly. The most effective thing I found was to dash forward after I blocked anything from the Orochi and try to close the distance while being ready to parry a Storm Rush that came my way. Worked once or twice on good players who then just canceled to make it safe or GB'd me. They almost always dash backward or evade to the side after you successfully block an attack. Why wouldn't you? Because if you try and attack them in anyway, the Storm Rush will beat you if they have any sense of timing. They notice you're defensive and ready to parry it? They just rush you and cancel it into whatever they want. And it's such a good initiation because it leads into a potential combo. It's just plain brutal to fight with very little counter play. It allows the Orochi to dictate the pace and cadence of the fight. Two incredibly important parts of combat that usually lead to victory.

The Deflect. What can I say? Easy to pull off, nets you guaranteed damage, and, once again, provides an entrance into a potential combo. Feints help, but good players shrug that off and just deflect what comes next. If the player I was fighting was quick and able to break GB's effectively then my options were incredibly limited. One sneaky move I found was the vertical heavy feint into the Warden's R1 + R2. It was quick and generally caught them off guard when they were trying to deflect. But this leads into nothing, isn't super damaging, and leaves you WIDE, ****ING, OPEN if you miss. THAT is true risk/reward. Albeit not much reward compared to everything the Orochi is doing. You can't generally attack them without some sort of planned, indirect attack, which allows the Orochi to, once again, dictate the pace and cadence of the fight. Always leaving you on the back foot.

The 90 degree evasion. This one I actually found you could counter if you guess correctly. A side-stepping heavy attack in the direction of the evasion will connect before the Orochi hits you. So if you know the guy is going to dodge one way or the other, you can counter it for some decent damage. Which is great. Otherwise it beats everything else. Still don't like that, BUT, at least there is counter play here so I think it's fine overall.

Their Guard Break. They get a free vertical heavy from their Guard Break which is just brutal. Pretty sure it does more damage than say, the Warden's left or right heavy they get off of a Guard Break. I'm not 100% positive on this one so correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's a bit much.

At the end of the day I won my engagements with Orochi's through *****in' parry timing, Guard Breaks, and liberal use of feinting. But it wouldn't really work on a player who was just as patient and tactical as I was. And THOSE are the players I'm basing this opinion off of. The parry gave me a free Guard Break which allowed me to form SOME kind of offense that otherwise was impossible with the ever looming threat of dodges and deflects. I felt like the only way to beat great Orochis was through patience and hoping the other guy would make a mistake or get frustrated by my resolute defense. This is not the best battle tactic in my opinion. They have more options available to them and, if they choose and are skilled enough, can dictate the pace and cadence of the fight leaving you at an inherent disadvantage as soon as that game loads in. They are a Risk/Reward Character that has loads of reward for very, very little risk. This is why I think the Orochi class is inherently better at killing other dudes and why I think it needs a look at before this game comes out =)

N1GTHCR0W
09-26-2016, 07:46 PM
This game is pretty well balanced but ive certainly noticed that the orochi seem to have a pretty good damage output with a ton of stamina and a couple of their moves that are really good cost hardly any stamina at all (storm rush) and they switch guard position really quick making them extremley frustrating to fight as anything but another orochi, I can tell something is up seeing as how it seems every other person plays them (in duels)


stop crying and begin to learn to play

waraidako
09-27-2016, 09:08 AM
Dont get me wrong, I have killed them (mostly in dominion) and they are not unbeatable, it just feels to me that they have a big advantage (at least in 1v1 duels), maybe op was the wrong term

No, that's how you use the term OP. You used it correctly.

joshcsaaron
09-27-2016, 10:02 PM
I couldn't agree more. I went on a 23 game win streak with the Orochi. He is too mobile with no stamina penalty for big moves. I felt like my opponents were stuck in cement. I could attack and be out before they could react. No other character felt as OP to me anyway. I actually quit playing with him, seriously it felt way too easy. Even the berserker has no speed compared. Anyone who doesn't think he is over powered never played with him. Or was total trash with him. For the health of the game which I desperately want to succeed... He desperately needs a nerf/balance. Hope the devs are listening.