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View Full Version : The myth and the truth of Browning M2 0.5"



KIMURA
07-15-2004, 06:25 AM
Besides the discussion about the effectivity of the Browning M2 and the try of some users to create links from the orginal 1921 model to later gun models one true detail is mostly left away. Maybe of the fact that even the Browning M2 was a cheap and easy copy of a far more deadly weapon.

John Browning had........................
http://img.thefreedictionary.com/wiki/f/f1/JohnBrowning.jpeg

that weapon in his mind as he designed the M2. The Browning M2 is a Swiss gun by origin.
http://www.victorinox.com/newsite/images/produkte/my_first_gross.jpg

Kimura

KIMURA
07-15-2004, 06:25 AM
Besides the discussion about the effectivity of the Browning M2 and the try of some users to create links from the orginal 1921 model to later gun models one true detail is mostly left away. Maybe of the fact that even the Browning M2 was a cheap and easy copy of a far more deadly weapon.

John Browning had........................
http://img.thefreedictionary.com/wiki/f/f1/JohnBrowning.jpeg

that weapon in his mind as he designed the M2. The Browning M2 is a Swiss gun by origin.
http://www.victorinox.com/newsite/images/produkte/my_first_gross.jpg

Kimura

Zayets
07-15-2004, 06:43 AM
Yes.

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

carguy_
07-15-2004, 07:09 AM
uuuuh

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

Freefalldart
07-15-2004, 07:26 AM
Yes, very deadly indeed... I've got one of these and recently cut myself while peeling a potato...

"Cuando un loco parece totalmente sensato es hora de ponerle la camisa de fuerza"
Edgar Allan Poe (1809-1849)

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
07-15-2004, 08:26 AM
the best weapon, ask McGyver, he knows!

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/blacksheep.jpg

Willey
07-15-2004, 10:02 AM
c'mon, McGyver can make a nuke out of a piece of wire http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
07-15-2004, 10:29 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/blacksheep.jpg

kubanloewe
07-15-2004, 01:07 PM
http://home.arcor.de/kubanskiloewe/109f4-armor.JPG

http://home.arcor.de/kubanskiloewe/g14gutspruchsig.jpg
"Finde den Feind und schiesse ihn ab alles andere ist Unsinn"
Rittmeister Freiherr Manfred von Richthofen

PBNA-Boosher
07-15-2004, 01:53 PM
Well, that's great. Just one thing though. In the end, we were the ones that used it. So it doesn't matter who originally made it. It's a clever argument, for sure. But the fact remains that it was one of the great "American" weapons of the war.

Boosher
_____________________________
"So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you..."
-Gandalf

kubanloewe
07-15-2004, 02:00 PM
great ? LOL
http://home.arcor.de/kubanskiloewe/108vsbrit.gif

http://home.arcor.de/kubanskiloewe/g14gutspruchsig.jpg
"Finde den Feind und schiesse ihn ab alles andere ist Unsinn"
Rittmeister Freiherr Manfred von Richthofen

Gibbage1
07-15-2004, 02:09 PM
Wow. Another M2 thread. LEts see how fast it gets locked.

BM357_TinMan
07-15-2004, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Willey:
c'mon, McGyver can make a nuke out of a piece of wire http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He'd need Duct Tape too

BM357_TinMan
xo BM357 VFG
www.bm357.com (http://www.bm357.com)

JG7_Rall
07-15-2004, 02:22 PM
would he mine the uranium and make it unstable (i forget what the process is called, where the uranium is purified or whatever to get only 251 i think or something) with his bare hands too?

"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!

Korolov
07-15-2004, 03:13 PM
Mk108 wasn't great because it was on the loosing side. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

Udidtoo
07-15-2004, 03:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
would he mine the uranium and make it unstable (i forget what the process is called, where the uranium is purified or whatever to get only 251 i think or something) with his bare hands too?

_"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."_
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, for that process he would require a bottle of seltzer and that extra tab of material that most people trim off their button fly 501 levi's.

Who knew it could be used to manufacture fisionable explosives http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

BaldieJr
07-15-2004, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kubanloewe:
http://home.arcor.de/kubanskiloewe/109f4-armor.JPG

http://home.arcor.de/kubanskiloewe/g14gutspruchsig.jpg
"Finde den Feind und schiesse ihn ab alles andere ist Unsinn"
Rittmeister Freiherr Manfred von Richthofen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Question:

How were the firing trials conducted? If a single .50 was used, I fail to see how this is relevant to anything.

Zmir88IAP
07-15-2004, 03:52 PM
The british .50 which was used in the Test is very rare.

It uses the same Cartridge as the BredaSafat and some other low performance MGs from the japaneese.(12,7*81SR)

-It cant be compared with the Browning .50(12,7*99)
-The Energy of this lighter bullet with lower muzzle velocity is only 60% of a .50M2 bullet.
-A Browning M2 could penetrate a bit over 1 Inch steel at 100 Yards-the Vickers.50 NOT.

Be sure a Browning .50 Bullet will do nearly the same like the russian UB did: "The 18 mm plate behind the fuel tank that consists of several sheets of thin aluminum. Its intention is to strip the incendiary mix off the ammunition; it cannot be considered armor, as it does nothing to actually stop the bullet. In addition, as our research shows, the plate does not perform its intended function; on the contrary, it improves the probability of the incendiary ammo setting the tank on fire."
...
"Me-109G2 armor can be penetrated with a medium caliber bullet from 100 meters; a 12.7 mm armor-piercing bullet will cut through it from up to 400 meters."(plz have in mind that the UB bullet is a bit stronger-but not much...the UB is mainly better by its better rpm)

If i learned one thing in this ".50-treads": Be sure to speak about the .50 you mean...dont play bad tricks.
Here you can see the different rounds:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
... http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/HMG1.jpg
(from right the second is the "original" the 4th-with the green tip-the "fakehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif")

[This message was edited by Zmir88IAP on Fri July 16 2004 at 04:20 AM.]

NorrisMcWhirter
07-15-2004, 04:47 PM
Hi,

When this thread has been locked, can we please start one for the 0.500 cal, then the 0.5000 cal...and so on?

Who knows? Before long posters might reach the posting character limit just with zeros!

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

Cajun76
07-15-2004, 07:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Hi,

When this thread has been locked, can we please start one for the 0.500 cal, then the 0.5000 cal...and so on?

Who knows? Before long posters might reach the posting character limit just with zeros!

Cheers,
Norris

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember a time when you spammed every .50 cal thread, whining about the 'porked' 20mm, and that the .50 shouldn't be changed unless the the 20mm was changed. Classic case of arcade whiners moaning to get 'game balance' instead of historical accuracy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

HellToupee
07-15-2004, 10:19 PM
well there was a historical difference in them, so in a way by maintaing that you have historical accuracy in one area.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

alarmer
07-16-2004, 12:01 AM
ouuuuu brother &lt;-- in deep black mans voice

Cajun76
07-16-2004, 12:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HellToupee:
well there was a historical difference in them, so in a way by maintaing that you have historical accuracy in one area.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well of course there is a difference in them, and I, in no way said there wasn't. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif The thing was, he stated the .50 cal shouldn't get fixed unless the 20mm did. And there were/are different things wrong with them. That's arcade game balance whining, not interest in historical accuraccy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Now he spends his time still spamming the .50 cal threads, even after the 20mm got fixed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif Still think some people have the sims authenticity foremost in their minds, or do they merely want everything LW, USAAF, RAF or (insert air force here) to be uber. Personally, I think it's mostly the pilot, not the plane. Look at the Finns in Brewsters or Polish pilots in P.11c's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

NorrisMcWhirter
07-16-2004, 06:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Hi,

When this thread has been locked, can we please start one for the 0.500 cal, then the 0.5000 cal...and so on?

Who knows? Before long posters might reach the posting character limit just with zeros!

Cheers,
Norris

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember a time when you spammed every .50 cal thread, whining about the 'porked' 20mm, and that the .50 shouldn't be changed unless the the 20mm was changed. Classic case of arcade whiners moaning to get 'game balance' instead of historical accuracy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This would be a valid point except for a couple of reasons:

a. In v2.0, the 20mms were clearly porked. That's why they were fixed.

b. Oleg has already stated that he has given into the incredible amount of whining regarding the .500000000000 cals and that he had modelled them historically (with recoil) but that he has taken it out (and modelled them a-historically) to satisfy the boo-hoo fanboys.

So, in actual fact, it's the other way around. As I have not heard Oleg say that the 20mms are a-historical, I'll assume that they are correct while we know absolutely that the .5000000000000000000 cals will now incorrect in v2.0x (where x &gt;= 2)

Thus, we now have a situation where the comic book brigade will be shooting off in their pants with their overmodelled guns for overmodelled aircraft whilst the LW brigade put up with gunsights that fall off if a fly farts in Burma.

Also, when I said about changing both, I did not know that Oleg had modelled the 0.5000000000000000000000000000000 cals correctly already. So, even that jibe is no longer valid.

Besides, I'd prefer to think of it as 'contributing' rather than 'spamming' http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

Cajun76
07-16-2004, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:


This would be a valid point except for a couple of reasons:

a. In v2.0, the 20mms were clearly porked. That's why they were fixed.

b. Oleg has already stated that he has given into the incredible amount of whining regarding the .500000000000 cals and that he had modelled them historically (with recoil) but that he has taken it out (and modelled them a-historically) to satisfy the boo-hoo fanboys.

So, in actual fact, it's the other way around. As I have not heard Oleg say that the 20mms are a-historical, I'll assume that they are correct while we know absolutely that the .5000000000000000000 cals will now incorrect in v2.0x (where x &gt;= 2)

Thus, we now have a situation where the comic book brigade will be shooting off in their pants with their overmodelled guns for overmodelled aircraft whilst the LW brigade put up with gunsights that fall off if a fly farts in Burma.

Also, when I said about changing both, I did not know that Oleg had modelled the 0.5000000000000000000000000000000 cals correctly already. So, even that jibe is no longer valid.

Besides, I'd prefer to think of it as 'contributing' rather than 'spamming' http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cheers,
Norris

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, the 20mms seemed just fine in v2.0, I think there might have been a precedent for whining regarding the uh, what was it? Boo hoo fanboys? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

This recoil thing, now that's a hum-dinger! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I'm sure everyone's seen JtD's excellent tests. Here's the link (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/fbg/weapons.html) for those who haven't seen it. Look carefully. The dispersion for the .50 cal is about the same as a Mk 108. That's some recoil! Even in nose mounted installations, like the P-39 and Brewster. The power that implies should cut a/c in half with just a couple of hits. If that recoil is accurate, as Oleg says, then why isn't the 20mm all over the place? Or was it just a mediocre weapon with no guts? v2.0 is looking more accurate for our pal the spray and pray 20mm. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Btw, 'whiners' haven't changed anything. v2.02 was not official, nor sanctioned. If anything, Oleg admited that every other gun in game is overmodeled. So in the interest of historical matchups, every other gun in the game should recieve the same 'recoil' effect as the .50 cal, right?

I usually agree with just about anything Oleg has to say about this sim, and a/c in general, but with this, he seemes to be looking in the wrong place. The one comment, for example. Something about "historic guncam showing wide dispersion when the plane is near the ground and atmospheric effects fubar the accuracy" Huh? He's going to use the worst possible conditions to fire guns, and apply it only to .50 cals? Some of you seem to be very selective of what you'll believe from Oleg. Unless some finally realize that the 'bar' in the 190 is correct, and the high speed elevators are just right for the 109. I personally have no problem with them. What's all the whining fuss about? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The funniest part is the "overmodelled guns for overmodelled aircraft whilst the LW brigade put up with gunsights that fall off if a fly farts in Burma." I guess some need some kind of excuse or cushion if they get shot down by a P-47. As far as the gunsights, maybe the LW should have engineered them better. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

crazyivan1970
07-16-2004, 09:45 AM
20mm was not porked in 2.0, there was an error, or call it a bug if you want that affected not only 20mm weapons, others too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

NorrisMcWhirter
07-16-2004, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:


This would be a valid point except for a couple of reasons:

a. In v2.0, the 20mms were clearly porked. That's why they were fixed.

b. Oleg has already stated that he has given into the incredible amount of whining regarding the .500000000000 cals and that he had modelled them historically (with recoil) but that he has taken it out (and modelled them a-historically) to satisfy the boo-hoo fanboys.

So, in actual fact, it's the other way around. As I have not heard Oleg say that the 20mms are a-historical, I'll assume that they are correct while we know absolutely that the .5000000000000000000 cals will now incorrect in v2.0x (where x &gt;= 2)

Thus, we now have a situation where the comic book brigade will be shooting off in their pants with their overmodelled guns for overmodelled aircraft whilst the LW brigade put up with gunsights that fall off if a fly farts in Burma.

Also, when I said about changing both, I did not know that Oleg had modelled the 0.5000000000000000000000000000000 cals correctly already. So, even that jibe is no longer valid.

Besides, I'd prefer to think of it as 'contributing' rather than 'spamming' http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cheers,
Norris

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, the 20mms seemed just fine in v2.0, I think there might have been a precedent for whining regarding the uh, what was it? Boo hoo fanboys? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

This recoil thing, now that's a hum-dinger! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I'm sure everyone's seen JtD's excellent tests. Here's the http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/fbg/weapons.html for those who haven't seen it. Look carefully. The dispersion for the .50 cal is about the same as a Mk 108. That's some recoil! Even in nose mounted installations, like the P-39 and Brewster. The power that implies should cut a/c in half with just a couple of hits. If that recoil is accurate, as Oleg says, then why isn't the 20mm all over the place? Or was it just a mediocre weapon with no guts? v2.0 is looking more accurate for our pal the spray and pray 20mm. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Btw, 'whiners' haven't _changed_ anything. v2.02 was not official, nor sanctioned. If anything, Oleg admited that _every other gun in game is overmodeled_. So in the interest of historical matchups, every other gun in the game should recieve the same 'recoil' effect as the .50 cal, right?

I usually agree with just about anything Oleg has to say about this sim, and a/c in general, but with this, he seemes to be looking in the wrong place. The one comment, for example. Something about "historic guncam showing wide dispersion when the plane is near the ground and atmospheric effects fubar the accuracy" Huh? He's going to use the worst possible conditions to fire guns, and apply it only to .50 cals? Some of you seem to be very selective of what you'll believe from Oleg. Unless some finally realize that the 'bar' in the 190 is correct, and the high speed elevators are just right for the 109. I personally have no problem with them. What's all the whining fuss about? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The funniest part is the "overmodelled guns for overmodelled aircraft whilst the LW brigade put up with gunsights that fall off if a fly farts in Burma." I guess some need some kind of excuse or cushion if they get shot down by a P-47. As far as the gunsights, maybe the LW should have engineered them better. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Have to go to the bank so can't spend all day on this http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif However, I will re-iterate the following:

Now, Oleg has never specifically mentioned that the 20mms were overmodelled and I'd be interested to know at which point in the see-saw that is LW cannon effectiveness Oleg stated that all guns were overmodelled.

He has, however, stated that the .500000000000000000 cals are now not subject to recoil (as other guns are, irrespective of mk108 finger pointing) and that makes them a-historical.

That's now an non-disputable fact.

As to gunsights, it's nothing to do with how well engineered they are - it comes down to patriot fanboys not buying something unless it's easy to shoot down goose-stepping nazis like they saw in their comic books when they were kiddies. And that is the fault of marketing..and whining.

Of course, if nothing should be done about whining then the P51 wings should fall off as they do and the P47 should dive and roll as it does now. Yep, I'll go with that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers.
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam :
http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
07-16-2004, 10:04 AM
well most of the noobs would fail to down a A-Series FW even if the Cal 0.50 had the punch of MK103.

And most of the noobs are complaining about Spray on theyr guns making them ineffective, well i need 1 sec burst to flame a FW or kill a 109...

and most of the guys flying Cal 0.50 equipped planes start shooting from distances no one with a bit brain would (200 or more meters)...

and well Cal 0.50 are lasers in 2.02 now, but most of u whiners will still fail to hit something and they will start complaining about the german planes taking to much damage or are undownable....

it is just pissing me off.

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/blacksheep.jpg

KGr.HH-Sunburst
07-16-2004, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ToP_BlackSheep:
well most of the noobs would fail to down a A-Series FW even if the Cal 0.50 had the punch of MK103.

And most of the noobs are complaining about Spray on theyr guns making them ineffective, well i need 1 sec burst to flame a FW or kill a 109...

and most of the guys flying Cal 0.50 equipped planes start shooting from distances no one with a bit brain would (200 or more meters)...

and well Cal 0.50 are lasers in 2.02 now, but most of u whiners will still fail to hit something and they will start complaining about the german planes taking to much damage or are undownable....

it is just pissing me off.

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/blacksheep.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hear hear http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

http://www.hell-hounds.de
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/sunsigHH.jpg
''All your Mustangs are belong to us''

Blutarski2004
07-16-2004, 10:45 AM
Recoil, recoil, recoil .....

Go to Ring's PRO Docs site and Tony Williams site, which nicely tabulate muzzle energy (ME) and RoF's for all the weapons in question. I have rounded the ME values for simplicity's sake.

WEAPON_____ME per round__Rate/Fire___ ME adj for RoF/sec
--------------------------------------------------------
M2 50cal---16,500 joules-13/rps------214,500 joules
MG151/20---29,000 joules-12/rps------348,000 joules
MG/FFM-----20,000 joules-08/rps------160,000 joules
MG17------- 3,550 joules-20/rps------ 71,000 joules


AIRCRAFT_____________Total ME per second
----------------------------------------
P51B/C (4 x 50cal)---- 858,000 joules
P51D (6 x 50cal ---- 1,287,000 joules
P47 (8 x 50cal)------1,716,000 joules

FW190A5 series-------1,158,000 joules
2 x MG17
2 x 151/20
2 x MG/FF

Keep in mind that the empty structural weight of an FW190 A series was about 7,000 lbs; that of a P51 was about the same; the P47D was about 10,000 lbs. Later models of the FW190 carried considerably heavier armament, replacing the MG17s with 12.7mm HMGs and the MGFF's for the much stronger 151/20.

Draw your own conclusions about recoil issues.

BLUTARSKI

Gibbage1
07-16-2004, 11:34 AM
Ivan. I guess its OK to have a .50 cal thread as long as its not MY .50 cal thread hay? I dont see any new information here, so why is it still up?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
20mm was not porked in 2.0, there was an error, or call it a bug if you want that affected not only 20mm weapons, others too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
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<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

diabloblanco1
07-16-2004, 01:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by alarmer:
ouuuuu brother &lt;-- in deep black mans voice<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey sister &lt;-- in shallow white mans voice.

The Devil made me do it!

Cajun76
07-16-2004, 04:01 PM
There's that selective memory I was talking about. He mentioned that all other guns should actually have higher dispersion than they do now. If that's true, then only the planes with .50 cal installations have been flying around accurate, the rest are laser-sighted clown guns with sniper accuracy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif I have to be carefull, though. I might start sounding like an elitist LW jer, er, I mean, jock. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

He has stated that the .50 cals are now not subject to recoil? Huh? In 2.01? That's the only version we have right now. Whatever anyone experienced in the unsanctioned v2.02 is irrelevent. v2.02 was and is not fact. It's a fluke, and is no basis for comparision.

Now, no one has ever asked the .50 cal to be laser accurate and a-historic. Of course the gun should have recoil, but should it have MG 131, Ho-103 type recoil, or Mk 108 recoil?

The fear that proper .50 cal modeling inspires is truly funny, though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif All of a sudden, P-47s, P-39s, P-40s are 'noob' planes. Elitists, whether they fly Yak-3, La-7s, P-51, Fw-190 or Bf-109K-4 just annoy me. "I fly a certain air forces' a/c, and that makes me better than you." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif The hipocrisy is just icing on the cake. If someone truly believes that their Fw-190D-9 is superior to every other plane, then wouldn't that make it, *gasp*, n00b plane #1? And one can insert any a/c they want to in that example. Elitists come in all flavors.

The best paranoid staement so far:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As to gunsights, it's nothing to do with how well engineered they are - it comes down to patriot fanboys not buying something unless it's easy to shoot down goose-stepping nazis like they saw in their comic books when they were kiddies. And that is the fault of marketing..and whining. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never read those. However, by all accounts, the goose-steping Nazis had their a$$ handed to them. That's a good thing, right? And even the P-47 came out of the war with a 4.6 to 1 kill ratio, and it got that mostly between the time of it's introduction and when the majority were switched to groundpounding, from around April '43 to March '44. That means it faced the Western LW at the height of their power and experience, at a time when they could easily gain local numerical superiority at will. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

@ diabloblanco1: LOL! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

NorrisMcWhirter
07-17-2004, 03:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cajun76:
There's that selective memory I was talking about. He mentioned that all other guns should actually have higher dispersion than they do now. If that's true, then only the planes with .50 cal installations have been flying around accurate, the rest are laser-sighted clown guns with sniper accuracy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif I have to be carefull, though. I might start sounding like an elitist LW jer, er, I mean, jock. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

He has stated that the .50 cals are now not subject to recoil? Huh? In 2.01? That's the only version we have right now. Whatever anyone experienced in the unsanctioned v2.02 is irrelevent. v2.02 was and is not fact. It's a fluke, and is no basis for comparision.

Now, no one has ever asked the .50 cal to be laser accurate and a-historic. Of course the gun should have recoil, but should it have MG 131, Ho-103 type recoil, or Mk 108 recoil?

The fear that proper .50 cal modeling inspires is truly funny, though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif All of a sudden, P-47s, P-39s, P-40s are 'noob' planes. Elitists, whether they fly Yak-3, La-7s, P-51, Fw-190 or Bf-109K-4 just annoy me. "I fly a certain air forces' a/c, and that makes me better than you." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif The hipocrisy is just icing on the cake. If someone truly believes that their Fw-190D-9 is superior to every other plane, then wouldn't that make it, *gasp*, n00b plane #1? And one can insert any a/c they want to in that example. Elitists come in all flavors.

The best paranoid staement so far:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As to gunsights, it's nothing to do with how well engineered they are - it comes down to patriot fanboys not buying something unless it's easy to shoot down goose-stepping nazis like they saw in their comic books when they were kiddies. And that is the fault of marketing..and whining. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never read those. However, by all accounts, the goose-steping Nazis had their a$$ handed to them. That's a good thing, right? And even the P-47 came out of the war with a 4.6 to 1 kill ratio, and it got that mostly between the time of it's introduction and when the majority were switched to groundpounding, from around April '43 to March '44. That means it faced the Western LW at the height of their power and experience, at a time when they could easily gain local numerical superiority at will. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

@ diabloblanco1: LOL! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hehehe...Elitist LW? That's an interesting line seeing as the majority of such whining and related nationalist comment comes from the USAF patriots.

Also, I don't believe I've ever said that xyz plane *should*/*must* be better than abc because of it's nationality although we see that all the time from the patriots (threads such as P51 won the war etc). I have said, however, that you find that xyz plane IS better than abc plane because of nationality; this is backed up my the statements of the designer, too, which brings me to...

You can be selective also; choose to ignore the statements by Oleg - the .50 one is in ORR at this time - about overmodelling of certain aircraft and weaponry. We all can guess why he's done it but he is part of a business that needs to be a success and it's his choice at the end of the day.

wrt recoil, I don't think anyone can suggest that the Mk108 etc don't have recoil. Ever flown a 262 and opened up with it? If you can see through the muzzle flash, you might just notice the plane bouncing around. So, what is your point?

The P-xx will soon be definate noob planes because of the noob guns. I fly a lot of different planes, not just LW and I enjoy them but I get no real satisfaction out of flying almost anything with a P-xx in it just because, for the most part, you don't have to try very hard. That's my opinion.

And the fear of .50 cal modelling has never come from having a 'beloved' plane shot down. I fly LW mostly, but I don't wear a Waffen-SS uniform with no a*se in it while I do so; I fly these because I think they have a bit of character.

The fear of the .50 cal is purely from what I've said before, many times, about marketing to patriots; once more, there is a possibilty to warp historical events and that's not fundamentally 'right'; if we get into the situation, albeit on a different level, we're no better than those who caused serious damage in warping/spinning history..re: Hitler, et al. Now, we all know that being selective about information/spinning fact is almost entirely the norm in certain societies but it falls outside of what I, personally, think is OK.

Cheers,
Norris

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Atomic_Marten
07-17-2004, 05:14 AM
Fact is that 0.50 has maybe the worst dispersion in AEP 2.01. If that was the case in WW2 real fighters then O.K. When flying cobraQ10 I can't be sure that two bullets (from MG) will end up in elephant from 0.10 distance. So I must use T9 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif.

Cajun76
07-17-2004, 08:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:

hehehe...Elitist LW? That's an interesting line seeing as the majority of such whining and related nationalist comment comes from the USAF patriots.

Also, I don't believe I've ever said that xyz plane *should*/*must* be better than abc because of it's nationality although we see that all the time from the patriots (threads such as P51 won the war etc). I have said, however, that you find that xyz plane IS better than abc plane because of nationality; this is backed up my the statements of the designer, too, which brings me to...

You can be selective also; choose to ignore the statements by Oleg - the .50 one is in ORR at this time - about overmodelling of certain aircraft and weaponry. We all can guess why he's done it but he is part of a business that needs to be a success and it's his choice at the end of the day.

wrt recoil, I don't think anyone can suggest that the Mk108 etc don't have recoil. Ever flown a 262 and opened up with it? If you can see through the muzzle flash, you might just notice the plane bouncing around. So, what is your point?

The P-xx will soon be definate noob planes because of the noob guns. I fly a lot of different planes, not just LW and I enjoy them but I get no real satisfaction out of flying almost anything with a P-xx in it just because, for the most part, you don't have to try very hard. That's my opinion.

And the fear of .50 cal modelling has never come from having a 'beloved' plane shot down. I fly LW mostly, but I don't wear a Waffen-SS uniform with no a*se in it while I do so; I fly these because I think they have a bit of character.

The fear of the .50 cal is purely from what I've said before, many times, about marketing to patriots; once more, there is a possibilty to warp historical events and that's not fundamentally 'right'; if we get into the situation, albeit on a different level, we're no better than those who caused serious damage in warping/spinning history..re: Hitler, et al. Now, we all know that being selective about information/spinning fact is almost entirely the norm in certain societies but it falls outside of what I, personally, think is OK.

Cheers,
Norris

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off, I'd like to try to clear up some misunderstandings if I can. I'm not singling you or anyone else out when I use your quote in a reply. Not everything in the post is aimed specifically at you. I just wanted to be clear, and apoligize if it seemed that way.

The second is that I never stated the Mk 108 had no recoil. No one serious about this has stated that the .50 cal should have no recoil. Of course the .50 cal should have recoil.

But should it have recoil dispersion similar to the other HMGs like the Ho-103, MG 131 and UBK, or should it have recoil dispersion like a Mk-108? As modeled now, the .50 cal is similar in dispersion effect to a Mk 108. Those of us who use any type of Browning .50 in game would like this fixed. That's it. No uberguns, no uberplanes. Just the same standards applied to all.

From what I understand, if the .50 cal has realistic dispersion due to recoil, whether it's mounted on nose or wings, then every other HMG and more powerful gun in the game is seriously overmodeled it seems.

All that being said, I'm probably just wasting my time. If this was purely about just .50 cal modeling, then I think there would be a very good chance of changing something, whether it would be tightning up the .50s, or toning down the other guns. Unfortuneatly, there are now personal issues and professional reputations involved. Even if Oleg were convinced, it's unlikely he could change anything without looking like he gave into 'whiners'. Oleg's statements have also been muddied up with the cheating issue, and that's another blow against instituting changes. There's even subtle bits like calling some of us 'Ameriwhiners', even though we're not all Americans, just as 'Luftwhiners' are not nessesarily German. This is also my first experiance with someone using the term 'patriot' , by itself, as something derrogatory. Super patroit, yes, but not just patriot. It seems to apply that inaccurate appelation 'Ameriwhiner' again.

As it stands right now, no change has ever been implemented to change the .50 cals. The leaked beta allowed people to use unhistoric and overmoddeled planes. No one (besides the cheaters who try to ruin it for everyone) want Oleg to model something he feels is wrong. We'd much, much rather have him respond to well reasoned arguments and data. If that means changing every other gun in the game to the standards applied to the .50 cal, then so be it. I don't notice anybody else asking for the other guns to be toned down. It's much easier to label us and try to dismiss us than provide anything to the contrary.

Oleg seems to have said some things about the way planes in the game are modeled, but he didn't, afaik, explain just why that was so. I believe he stated VVS planes were toned down by averaging their performance. German planes were apparently modeled mostly according to Riechlin tests. And USAAF planes we're told are modeled to best tested data. That sounds similar to the Reichlin tests. But because of the backlash that mixed up the .50 cals, the cheaters (burn in hell), and performance issues, it has given ammunition to anyone who dosen't like the USA, USAAF planes, and .50 cals.

The biggest issues with USAAF a/c right now? P-51 low speed manueverability. Might be overmodeled, but then, the testers in the '40s never seemed to click the 25% fuel option either, nor deploy flaps in the manner that some people do in the game. I haven't noticed this super low speed ability, but I don't fly the P-51 much, either. Marketing seems to have nothing to do with this, as the wing falls off in dives now. Not exactly a selling piont. The other is the P-63, which, although there has been plenty of complaining, has only recently been tested by the community. It appears to have a bug, and hopefully it will be fixed.

In conclusion, don't fear any .50 cal changes. Oleg will do what he believes is accurate about the .50 cal. Will he change every other gun in the sim to reflect the 'reality' of the .50 cal, that's the question. I feel that there's a happy medium between where the .50 cals are now, and the way the other HMG and bigger guns are modeled.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

zenflyer
07-17-2004, 08:59 PM
So much for us the silent majority who respesct Oleg and 1c, who like myself have grew with this game from the start, to know we have to resort to commenting on some people's
1: whining=50 cal
2: those so called testers who could not be trusted
3: the a*** holes who actually thought they could get away with what they did ................ shame on them all

been following a lot of threads on many forums for quite some time now, and to be frank, I am shocked by most of the vitreol that I have read here. NO one is BLAMELESS you should ALL BE ASHAMED, and this is from a PRIEST, grow up and have respect for each others views. Plus this WHICH IS A MAJOR FACTOR IN ALL OF THESE SO CALLED DEBATES, Olegs game is his, quite a few of you have been calling for him to show his sources RIGHT NOW, STRAIGHT AWAY. For God's sake give the guy a break , he and his wife ahve just had a new born Baby, IT DOES NOT TAKE TO MUCH INTELIGILENGE TO SURMISE THE POOR GUY IS SHATTERED, as we say in BELFAST Northern Ireland, "Wise up, give the fella a break, ya know what I mean like....." But if I post this Knowing what I have been reading, it will not be heeded............

zenflyer
07-17-2004, 09:07 PM
Have fun, wise up lets Trust in Olegs judgment .... easy

Obi_Kwiet
07-17-2004, 09:45 PM
Actually thier is no way they could be .50000000000000000000000000000's They would be more like .50000000100000002300707670102300506's ect.

If Oleg modled the 190 with jet engines, would you still be loyal? Are you guys just getting brownie points or do you have good evidence that his way is right?