PDA

View Full Version : Tarelther's Balance Mod



Tarelther
09-04-2016, 12:42 PM
Hello Heroes. I've put together the first stable (enough) version of my multiplayer balance mod. Shout out to HoMMdb for listing the mod. http://www.hommdb.com/mods/heroes7/tarelthers-balance-mod/

The changes in the mod are multiplayer specific. If you play mostly single player, you may wish to pass on the mod.

Instructions are in the download. Please make a backup first though. Backups save lives.

Also remember, the mod is not officially supported, so use at your own risk.

Version 1.1 now actually includes the Warfare unit damage change. It was missing from the original mod for some reason. Sorry :(

Notable changes in the mod include:

Artillery Master no longer provides Improved Durability for free. Warfare with this specialty was simply too efficient. 2 free skill points in Warfare was too much.

Reduced the damage per hero level scaling of Warfare units by 2 per level. Warfare units simply got too much damage too early in the game. Damage increases slowly until hero level 15 when it starts to increase much faster.

Inscriber requires Magic Guild 4. Scroll rushes were way too fast. This slows them down a bit. Also Armageddon is no longer in pool of offers. I may end up removing all Tier 4 spell scrolls from the pool if it's still problematic.

Arcane Knowledge requirements for Tiers 2, 3 and 4 went up by 2 each for 4, 7 and 10 respectively. In accordance with this change, most Magic Heroes had initial skill points moved to a Magic skill if they did not have one there. Magic Heroes with economic specialties or starting skills were not changed (Amilcar, Yasir, Kengi and Sephinroth). Full details are in the notes in the mod.

Soul Harvest instead increases the duration of negative effects on enemy creatures by 1. In combat mana sustain from simply performing a hero attack was too much. I've not changed any other in combat mana gaining mechanic, but if it's still problematic, I can make other adjustments.

Week of Storms is gone. That was just annoying.

English tooltips have been updated for the changes made. Sorry, it's the only language I know well enough.

There's also a few bug fixes. Notably the Runic Shield works properly in the mod.

If you do try the mod, please leave any feedback in this thread.

Specifically, can you still clear neutrals Week 1 and 2 with just 1 stacks of creatures, spells and a Warfare unit?
Did the Arcane Knowledge change feel too devastating playing as a Magic hero?
Did you feel you had a chance to get going as a Might hero before getting overwhelmed by high level magic?
Did the balance between a higher level hero with less army and lower level hero with more army feel right? (Basically is Diplomacy worth it?)

DenisTheGreat
09-04-2016, 04:09 PM
Great job, Tarelther!
I will definitely try the mode and give you my feedback.
Do both players need to have this mode activated in order to play multiplayer ? I suppose yes ?

As for now - I am mostly preoccupied regarding Arcane knowledge changes, but for sure first need test then make comments.

Tarelther
09-04-2016, 04:17 PM
Yes, all players need to have the mod in multiplayer. The game will just go out of sync immediately if even one does and any one else does not.

I had another thought about multiplayer games. Turn 1, you always build a Hall of Heroes. Unless you don't know what you're doing, in which case you almost lose turn 1 because you don't know to build Hall of Heroes turn 1. That's not a choice, that's a trap.

What if I started all towns with a Hall of Heroes so you can actually make a decision on what to build turn 1?

Gourou7592
09-05-2016, 10:00 AM
Respect !

I'll give you my feedback when i will have time to test it :)

DenisTheGreat
09-05-2016, 11:47 PM
Just started to test your mode it in single mode, supposing I play mp.
I selected a mage hero from Stronghold - Anga, one of my favorite ones.
Map: Blood and Fire, Hard lvl.
I am making a stream of my game, the first one, so I hope to be able to share it later when I finish the game.:)

First impressions:
due to arcane knowledge changes I not see any reason to develop mages guild higher then level 2.
I need to invest lots of hero points to develop a second magic sector in order to get a lvl 3 or lvl 4 spell.
I do not see the reason for this, because if I select the mages guild specialization - Air, why should I develop a full sector ow water or earth, that I not need ?
Only to get the knowledge ? No - it is a huge waste of time for my hero.
I decided just to invest hero points in Air only and to learn only lvl 2 spells, that is enough for me to make my basic hero build.
So I've got Storm Arrows and Lightning bolt (that can give mass damage).
After 16 days my hero is lvl 18 and Anga has an army of 150 gnolls and 50 harpies. Can easily beat any neutral army on the map without losses, no need to buy army in the town.
No warfare, only Storm Arrows and sometimes Lightning Bolt (usually only Storm Arrows is enough).
Storm Lord ability also helps for sure, but not necessary, can do without easily.

I think that I can easily handle without lvl 3 and 4 spells as need too much hero skill points to invest in order to get them/
Yes, I can use paragon +5 knowledge and I have it, but I not use because I can easily advance on the map and kill everything without it only with lvl 1 spell on master level.

I will finish (up to a reasonable level) this game tomorrow and hope to be able to show you the stream (need some video mounting).

As for now - first impressions - I think that changes in Arcane knowledge make me change my strategy so that I will:
1). focus on lvl 1 and 2 spells only in my build.
2). will select a hero with paragon (expert lvl is enough). paragon is quite useful and will take only 3 hero levels to get a +5 arcane knowledge that will give me access to high level spells

But I am still able to fight with very small army against huge neutrals stacks.

to be continued.

ps
warfare not tested yet

Tarelther
09-07-2016, 01:25 AM
I'm glad that you are actually using an army to clear. This was what I was trying to accomplish. What risk is 7 gargoyles? It's basically no risk. When you have to carry an army around, you can get jumped by an enemy hero and potentially lose that army. This makes aggressive push strategies work.

So you need 3 more skill points for Tier 4 spells. 3 skill points is a good chunk of XP at level 18. I've seen many games end before level 18, so you're taking an element of risk that you can't get the Tier 4 spells before the end of the game is forced upon you. More decision making, more balancing of risk and reward. I like it.

Also, if I understand correctly, you are completely filling out Air Magic? If so, that's something I NEVER see anyone do, fill out a full skill tree in anything other than Warfare. More build diversity is always a good thing. I like this too.

So we're going the right direction, but we're not there yet. I am pleased so far.

IMMORTAL_999
09-07-2016, 08:01 AM
excuse me, but I will not install this non-official **** sнiт...

DenisTheGreat
09-07-2016, 08:03 PM
What risk is 7 gargoyles?
The risk is to loose all artifacts and money for recruiting main hero in case you can get jumped by an enemy hero.


3 skill points is a good chunk of XP at level 18.
You can see it from my stream (see link below) that I got the Arcane Intuition when I was lvl 11. And this you can get very fast.


Also, if I understand correctly, you are completely filling out Air Magic? If so, that's something I NEVER see anyone do, fill out a full skill tree in anything other than Warfare. More build diversity is always a good thing. I like this too.
I am pleased to have a possibility to share this type of hero build :)
This is one of my favorite ones :cool:

Here is the stream of my test game in single (see link below).
I am sorry for some pauses (due to tel calls or other reasons), I tried to cut the biggest of them while video mounting.
Anyhow, the key points of that game are the following:
1) Storm Arrows is an extremely strong lvl 1 spell that can give you a possibility to do really crazy fights.
2) Some highlights:
- timing: 19:56 - a battle for Chrystal mine on day 5, hero level 4. I think might be very hard and big losses if you go for might, even with warfare (as lvl 4 hero can not give you a master in warfare).
- timing: 41:20 - this is the moment when I got the basic build and necessary army. It is level 7 of hero. After that I could kill everything on my road and I raised up my hero from lvl 7 to lvl 18 in 6 days.
-timing: 42:20 - I wanted to show you the power of Air magic. A lvl 7 hero. Storm arrows might increase the attack by 47 (!!!) and give 100% arrow, while a lightning bolt can give 624-884 direct damage + 360-510 to all neighbor units (!). Just go and kill. :cool:
3) After that day I would probably attack my neighbor, I not see the reason to wait and - what is important - no need to go for army(!).
I can manage with only my 150 gnolls that give a damage of 1200+storm lord+50 harpies (this is much more then any warfare damage).
In real game I would make a chain of heroes to bring the support of gnolls to main hero - so that my damage might be 2000+ per hit.
(If I want to come back to castle for cyclone - I spend 3+ days without fights with main hero and that is unacceptable.)

I think Storm Arrows are really overpowered.

In the same moment I might go with mass lightning bolt, it costs only 10 mana and give super damage.

The link to the stream is here (https://youtu.be/z4rL07j63Hg)(sorry it is in Russian).
(Don't forget to change settings to HD mode :) ))

Tarelther
09-08-2016, 12:22 AM
I'll go ahead and take a watch. I'd like to think I know the game well enough that it being in Russian wouldn't prevent from getting the information I want.

You've kind of already touched on some of my future plans, which will further explain the Arcane Knowledge changes. So I'll give a small spoiler. You only get 4 words though.

Sorcery
Thaumaturgery
Combat
Resistance

Interpret as you wish.

DenisTheGreat
09-08-2016, 02:22 AM
2 Tarelther
I hope I did not cause anything wrong that might be sensitive to you :)
I just want try to help you and devs and ubi and me and everybody to make the game better.

Tomorrow I hope I will have the time to test again your mode but in different way.
I want to do 2 tests:
1. One is for Minasly who will try to rush with your mode for Academy (one of my favorite builds).
2. Later, after Minasly - I will test the warfare (but I expect that your mode would be perfect and might just need some fine tuning).

Out of 4 words -> Resistance is my choice, interpret it as you wish :)

DenisTheGreat
09-08-2016, 03:14 PM
Soul Harvest instead increases the duration of negative effects on enemy creatures by 1. In combat mana sustain from simply performing a hero attack was too much. I've not changed any other in combat mana gaining mechanic, but if it's still problematic, I can make other adjustments.
I am not sure if this a good solution.
Magic heroes MUST have on option of quick mana regeneration, otherwise they will not be able to fight at all.
I think it is normal when a hero can do up to 3-4 fight per day. If you are going for might and warfare you have no limits with that.
But if you go for a magic hero how can you do 3-4 fights per day with no mana ?
Now when you cancel the Soul Harvest - the only guaranteed option for a magic hero to survive is to use the Renewal. That means that selecting a magic hero with no Prime magic automatically makes 3-4 fight per day impossible. So now Prime magic becomes a must, and I do not think it is good to have only 1 solution, because this cuts off a lot of heroes who can not have Prime magic.

I currently lean to leave Soul Harvest as it is now or maybe just reduce it from 20 to 10 per hit or give mana after fight, but anyhow - to give players a second option how to regenerate mana.

Now before starting to test your mode with Minasli I specially checked if she had prime magic. If not - I would have selected an other hero.

DenisTheGreat
09-10-2016, 12:24 AM
I made a stream of start with Minasli, have information to share and comments to your mode but I am out on weekend, so I not disappear but hope to have time for video montage on Sunday evening or Monday.

DenisTheGreat
09-11-2016, 09:45 PM
2 Tarelther:
finally, I have got the time to mount and upload my stream for Minasli as promissed :)
Here is it. (https://youtu.be/yIUdAhQ-ZTk)

Highlights:
- 14:45 - day3 - Minasli lvl4 - have an expert in water and in case no Tarelther's mod should run to home castle and learn lvl 2 water magic. But with the mode now she needs to be a master in water to learn lvl 2 - so now urgently checking all neutrals around in order to get one more levelup. After that can go to castle to learn spells.
- 17:13 - day4 - need to take a very difficult fight with big losses. I would say that normally (without mod) I would not go for this fight. But this was the only way to get necessary exp to get the master lvl in water.
- 23:08 - day 5 - need to take an other risky fight, but this time I was lucky. After this fight I learned Master in water (27:41)) and could learn the Ice Strike.
After that basic build was done and Minasli started to kill everything on her way :)
- 41:00 - day 7 - Minasli got Renewal in Prime. This was really necessary, otherwise she could not fight anymore, evidently.
- 1:03:00 - day 4 week 2 - Minasli lvl 12 was ready to learn Circle of Winter and you can imagine its power :cool:

In 9 days she got 10 levels from lvl 5 to lvl 15.


Conclusions:
1) I not think that Soul Harvest need to be cancelled, my detailed opinion is in post above here (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1489133-Tarelther-s-Balance-Mod?p=11924388&viewfull=1#post11924388).
2) I do not support the idea of increasing the Arcane Knowledge requirement for lvl2-3-4 spells, because this will only create serious problems to mage on week 1 only (in water magic, for example, there is no any direct damage spell on lvl1 so need to go for lvl 2, this is crucial), so that a mage might fail to fight at all (see fight on day 4). But once the mage get the necessary spell (lvl 1 or lvl 2) - he start to develop very quickly and Arcane Knowledge adjustments can not stop him.

My suggestions how to balance magic could be in following directions:
- maybe need to reduce (a little bit) the multiplier in formula of some selected mass damage spells
- develop the magic resistance ideas: anti-magic spell in prime, a big variety of very different magic resistance skills like it was in H5 (could be magic guild-oriented, so that you needed to predict your opponent selection in MP), skills that might increase the manacost of the opponent, magic resistance 15% in luck tree, like in H5, counter-spell, etc. Just look at the manual to H5 - so many options in the skill wheel :)

And something more 4 u to consider:

In the same time we made lots of tests - all magic heroes are extremely vulnerable in case you play with Stronghold against them. You just only need to take Anga as main hero and take the Might vs Magic skill + water shield. After that you can easily kill most part of magic heroes in the game.They can do nothing to you, as their magic damage is reduced by 75%.
Except necromancers, probably...

DenisTheGreat
09-12-2016, 05:46 PM
2 Tarelther:
I watched your recent stream about the game editor / scrolls / warfare.
Thank you for sharing your experience, very interesting and helps a lot to understand how it is organized there.

As for the scrolls and warfare - I believe you are on the right way, I think it is a good idea how to balance them.

DenisTheGreat
09-23-2016, 10:42 PM
2 Tarelther
After patch 2.2 now warfare units are completely useless again. :(
I am interested to know if it is possible to see in the game editor what exactly did they change in warfare in 2.2 compared to 2.1 ?

Anyhow, now I believe we need urgently a new Tarelther's mod which will return back the warfare power (to a reasonable level) :)

Tarelther
09-23-2016, 11:14 PM
I can take a look and see if I can find out. For now, uninstall the mod until I can figure out what needs to be done with this new patch.

DenisTheGreat
10-04-2016, 11:53 AM
Hi Tarelther,
I see you are working on a new game mode on Twitch here (https://www.twitch.tv/tarelther/v/92390050).
I watched it but did not understand what other changes it gives to the game , except for the starting Yohary skills)
Maybe a few comments from your side would be nice ?

Antalyan
10-06-2016, 03:29 PM
Now you have free hands, Tarelther.

Tarelther
10-09-2016, 09:21 PM
So it seems Antalyan.

Changes made during that stream were the following.

Removed Week of Storms.
Fire Wall has been disabled until it works. (I've re-enabled it.)
Morale cap back to +50.
Soul Harvest restores 10 Mana instead of 20.
Artillery Master no longer provides Improved Durability
Johari starts with Fortune instead of Fire Bolt.
Towns start with a Hall of Heroes built by default, unless the map specifically says otherwise.

I plan to reduce the damage of all area of effect spells by 40% and see how that works, if I can get it to work that is.

DenisTheGreat
10-09-2016, 11:14 PM
So it seems Antalyan.

Changes made during that stream were the following.

Removed Week of Storms.
Fire Wall has been disabled until it works. (I've re-enabled it.)
Morale cap back to +50.
Soul Harvest restores 10 Mana instead of 20.
Artillery Master no longer provides Improved Durability
Johari starts with Fortune instead of Fire Bolt.
Towns start with a Hall of Heroes built by default, unless the map specifically says otherwise.

I plan to reduce the damage of all area of effect spells by 40% and see how that works, if I can get it to work that is.


I would be happy to beta test with you your ideas)

Antalyan
02-02-2017, 02:54 PM
Any news about that?

Dragonborn_999
02-02-2017, 04:51 PM
Any news about that?

What happened with "Tarelther", damn it?
Where are he disappeared? ;)

DenisTheGreat
02-02-2017, 11:17 PM
What happened with "Tarelther", damn it?
Where are he disappeared? ;)

Just go and take a look at his twitch channel - maybe you will get an answer :)

Dragonborn_999
02-02-2017, 11:32 PM
Poor gringo went to another game :(