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View Full Version : IS TiR a real requirement for FR servers?



Nanuk66
07-14-2004, 05:56 AM
Hi,

I was wondering and hoping to get some opinions from the non ub3r 1337 flyers than can explain the situation without blowing their own trumpet!

I play on FR servers now and again but i usually find i cba to fly on the because i dont have track IR. Is there any capable pilots that fly FR that dont have it?
I remember some guy saying that he uses the the numpad to look about but even that doesnt feel too good as i personally find it hard flying, managing throttle and using the numpad to look about while in a furball!

I know ive read alot of TIR people saying that once they got it they couldnt fly any other way again: is it a great advantage to have?

I guess from my point of view if i go on the FR servers i feel that im already at a disadvantage b4 i even start.

Some level headed, non elitest views would be nice.

-----------------------------
English lesson 101:
The word is 'Lose' not 'Loose'. e.g.
That IL2 is gonna lose the fight against that 109.
That IL2's wing looks loose, its gonna fall off.
If i dive too vertically i will lose my wing. k thx.
------------------------------

Nanuk66
07-14-2004, 05:56 AM
Hi,

I was wondering and hoping to get some opinions from the non ub3r 1337 flyers than can explain the situation without blowing their own trumpet!

I play on FR servers now and again but i usually find i cba to fly on the because i dont have track IR. Is there any capable pilots that fly FR that dont have it?
I remember some guy saying that he uses the the numpad to look about but even that doesnt feel too good as i personally find it hard flying, managing throttle and using the numpad to look about while in a furball!

I know ive read alot of TIR people saying that once they got it they couldnt fly any other way again: is it a great advantage to have?

I guess from my point of view if i go on the FR servers i feel that im already at a disadvantage b4 i even start.

Some level headed, non elitest views would be nice.

-----------------------------
English lesson 101:
The word is 'Lose' not 'Loose'. e.g.
That IL2 is gonna lose the fight against that 109.
That IL2's wing looks loose, its gonna fall off.
If i dive too vertically i will lose my wing. k thx.
------------------------------

WWSensei
07-14-2004, 06:05 AM
trackIR is not required on FR servers. If you are good at using padlock or even hat views or mouseview then trackIR users do NOT have an advantage over you.

trackIR adds more to immersion than anything. That's what makes it unique. You end up using your neck to turn your view and your eyes to follow a target--natural. Unlike using your thumb and a hatswitch to simulate the neck.

If you suck at FR servers trackIR won't make you an ace or come close to being competitive. You'll just suck with this neat new toy on your desk. It's not some miracle device that makes aces out of people.

I would venture to say there are more FR flyers without TIR than with it. Most of those with it tend to set it up as a glorified hat switch (ie big deadzones).

WUAF_Badsight
07-14-2004, 06:08 AM
i have yet to get used to TiR

its far from required

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
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Bearcat99
07-14-2004, 06:37 AM
Not at all.. but it does help in the environment.

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IMMERSION BABY!!

TgD Thunderbolt56
07-14-2004, 06:59 AM
It's definitely not "required". I flew IL2 and the first part of FB with the hat switch with good success. To be good at using the hat switch takes some considerable practice for it to become intuitive and flow smoothly...likewise with TrackIR.

In fact, it took me longer to get used to TIR than it did to get used to the hat switch, but I'm definitely a TIR proponent at this point. I use the original TIR v1 and recommend it highly.

TB



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carguy_
07-14-2004, 07:03 AM
I do pretty good without TrackIR.It took me 3 months to use numpad without thinking about it though.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

T_O_A_D
07-14-2004, 07:56 AM
Nope!

But is helps bring full hard closer to full real immersion.

Have you checked your Private Topics recently? (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=ugtpc&s=400102)
My TrackIR fix, Read the whole thread (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=49310655&m=15310285&p=1)
Commanding Officer of the 131st_VFW (http://www.geocities.com/vfw_131st/)
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Helonwhls87
07-14-2004, 08:09 AM
Nope I learned to use the mouse with my left hand. Works good for me.

Andrewsdad
07-14-2004, 08:48 AM
Salute !!!

I'm with CARGUY in that I use the two-fingered-numpad method to look around.
It's not the system you use, but the getting used to using whatever you choose.

In the full difficulty servers keeping track of your enemy and overall situational awareness is the most important factor in success.

Use communication systems where possible, fly with wingmen and practice, practice, practice..

Good Luck !!
AD

Tooz_69GIAP
07-14-2004, 08:54 AM
I fly full real (kinda) in the 69th in various online wars and stuff.

I have a pretty crappy rig, and definately no track IR.

I use the number pad, and it works absolutely fine for me.

I does take a little bit of practice, but after a few days, you don't even look at where you pressing on the pad, you just know where you wanna look, and your fingers press the right keys.

In fact, I use the keyboard for everything except throttle and releasing weapons coz I have a real simple stick (PC Line Tournament Pro bought for 14.99) with only a throttle control and 4 buttons!!

I'm certainly not the best pilot ever, far far from it, but I can definately hold my own.

You really don't need fancy equipment to play this game. But if you want the fancy equipment, then that's your choice.

Tooz

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

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Za Rodinu!
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horseback
07-14-2004, 09:09 AM
I play mostly offline, but after almost a year, I still can't seem to get used to my TIR (if I took a week off and dedicated myself to it, I might get the hang of it, but ...)

I have a workaround for the hatswitch limitations, tho. Assign a single HOTAS or keyboard button to "Look Up"; using this button at the same time as the hat will raise your view direction 45 degrees. I reassigned the hatswitch 0 and 180 positions to "Look Forward Up" and "Look Forward Down" respectively, which covers the forward views. I also assign a button to "Look Down" so I can look around the cockpit in Normal or Gunsight view and actually read some of the dials.

As long as you are able to easily find and use the Look Up and Look Down buttons at the same time as the hatswitch (without looking), it will quickly become intuitive, and allow you full viewing coverage, and may be a little quicker than the basic TIRs.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

ZG77_Lignite
07-14-2004, 09:27 AM
I've had my TrackIR(2) now for about 6 months, and I won't (willingly) fly without it now. However, that does not mean it is advantageous (to me at least); I find that my situational awareness is still noticeably worse than when I used the mouse (or similar to when I used the mouse-stick on my throttle).

The point of TrackIR is (or should be) Immersion, not advantage. No doubt some people may use it because they think it gives them an advantage, but in my opinion it is merely a tool to increase immersion, just like a joystick, rudder pedals and throttle. I am lucky enough to now own all of these devices, however I'm quite certain that I was at least as effective, if not more so when flying with only stick and mouse in the original Il-2.

.02

jenikovtaw
07-14-2004, 09:53 AM
I'm not exactly very good in FR servers, but i dont have trackir, and go by with good old hatswitch, its not bad, sometimes i use mouse to "fine tune" the view angle.

So no, TiR is not a requirement by a long shot.

http://www.theartofwarfare.net/ftp/graphics/sigs/EXT-jenikovtaw.jpg

LilHorse
07-14-2004, 09:56 AM
I fly FR and use the num pad. Although I think I would like to have TIR neither my rig nor my wallet (at least justifying the cost with my wife http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) can handle it. I'm no uber 1337 pilot to be sure. And I would agree with others here that I don't think TIR would necessarily change that.

Zoilus
07-14-2004, 09:57 AM
In my view it is indispensable. It does take time to get it right and to get the settings how you want them, but all you need to do is read other threads, ask questions here (or in HL) and practice off-line.

Regardless of how good you are as a pilot (and after all how good was Hartmann -was he a great pilot or an excellent tactician/shot) the use of TrackIR does aid immersion and that will affect how you think and fly. Your scanning of the sky slowly becomes second nature and your SA improves.

TrackIR also frees up hat switches or other buttons on your joystick/hotas so that if you have an X45 (like me) you never need to touch the keyboard at all, even to check the map or start your engine. This helps because you can scan teh sky while you play around with your planes mixture, prop setting, radiator or whatever.

Do not simply confuse TrackIr with visual acuity or the tracking of enemy aircraft, it does a lot more than that. Having had TrackIR for about 5 months now I still find that on the odd occasion I lose contact, but this has helped my flying in that I now use my planes abilities to disengage and reacquire my target or to carry out manouevres that I would not have done before.

I do not claim to be a good pilot in FB - better than some, but worse than a lot. TrackIR may work for you or it may not. If you get it just make sure you put in some time to get used to it. Fly under a pseudonym in FR servers right from the off - you'll get shot down a lot but you'll learn quick!

If it doesnt't work for you after 2 months, put a message in this forum and you'll get enough people wanting to buy it off you... if its 3pro then I'll be one of them.

These are my personal settings (unclick 'edit group points' on the 'motion' screen):

Edit point/speed

0/0, 2/0, 5/0, 10/1, 20/6, 30/10, 40/16, 50/22

This should result in a flat spot followed by a gentle curve up to the side (on both X and Y axis). Small movements of the head result in slow movements of vision, but as the head is moved to the side or up/down the vision movement gets quicker.

Smoothing is set to 120

I have not changed any other default settings (apart from the default key settings).

HART_dreyer
07-14-2004, 10:02 AM
Hello,

If you configure your keyboard control's properly you won't be at much of a disadvantage at all in comparison to those who use TrackIR. First and most importantly you need to increase the snap view speed, I set it to max, found in the conf.ini file, edit speed=x under [HookView Config]. Set it to a big number, I'm not sure what the max variable really is.

Then the second thing you need to give up is the THROTTLE! You cannot use this and keypad efficiently together! To compensate for this I have put several power commands around my keypad and on my Hatswitch for my joystick. My keys are as such:

0 (INS) = Power 50%
, (DEL) = Prop Pitch 50%
Enter = Toggle Fov
- and + = Power Up/Down
PageUP = 100% Power
PageDWN = 0% Power
INS = Gun View
DEL = Radiator Flaps
HOME = Prop Pitch up
END = Prop Pitch down
* and / = Supercharger 1/2

Using these settings you'll be able to fly the game to the max without much trouble if you fly LW aircrat at least. I do find it a bit more difficult to juggle power and PropPitch on aircraft that requires this use (allied/vvs). Which is why I will put prop pitch on my Throttle once I buy TrackIR.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

vicloc
07-14-2004, 11:02 AM
I'm one of those few that get sick from TIR... after only about 15 minutes using it, I feel like throwing up! I use the hat switch on my X45 and it works perfectly fine for me on semi FR and FR servers like Greatergreen etc..

So I guess its all up to personal preference and liking.

_RAAF_Victor

FRAGAL
07-14-2004, 02:29 PM
Hi mate, i'm still getting used to mine, can only shoot something in real slow speed offline, but i do find it's great for online servers, it's easier to get a bearing on people who are on ur6 if externals are off or just general looking around or a glance to the mirror i'd agree with vicloc it's your own preference, i still turn it off and go to padlock when moving in for the kill http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif it hasn;t improved my game but it's definitely better than the mouse look or keypad.
S!
Fragal

LuckyBoy1
07-14-2004, 02:47 PM
The dirty, little secret answer to your question is...

as long as externals are not allowed, yes and even to a dregree if they are.

Now with an actual index & more fiber! It is newer & and even more improved! It's Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users!...

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/luckyboy/LuckyboysGuide2.htm

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

LeadSpitter_
07-14-2004, 02:52 PM
not at all, it takes people along time to adjust to it as well, when they do the only advantage they have is a slight one with deflection shots.

I had trackir1 which was pretty bad i sold it but after it collected dust for many months. i heard the newer ones fixed the refresh rates when panning so its good to have definatly.

I wish I still had mine my hatswitch recently busted and its time for a new joystick.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

brimigus
07-14-2004, 08:31 PM
sometimes the trackir can screw u up especialy if you use the external padlocks,u really have to keep hitting the f12 button eveytime u go back to cockpit or elese sometimes your looking at the floor and trying to compinsate by lifting your chin.one thing i found is strange is your can free pan externaly with the track ir, a diffinent plus when the enenmy is too far for pad lock but depending on the direction your going.you really have to crank your head around to get a front view ,then going the other way it will allmost be centerd with no need for corection to achive a forward external view of your aircraft and not need much head yangaling.One thing for sure it likes to stick once and a while,but its nice to easily look over your shoulder paning left and right looking for the bandit.I find it does not give me to much of an advantage in the cockpit only servers,mostly i cant tell the specks of snezze spackle from the E/A but hey i dont have a 40 inch moniter either.

Maj_Death
07-14-2004, 09:11 PM
I don't use TiR and would rate myself as atleast a semicompetant FR flyer. I use one of the many hatswitches on my X-45 to pan around and see no reason to get a TiR. The only way I would go out and buy a TiR is if I was in the store looking for something else and I just happen to stumble onto one for less than $10 US. Then I would give it a try just because it is cheap and wouldn't be much of a loss if I didn't like it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maj_Death here, I/JG1_Death at HL

I build COOPs and DF maps. If you would like some of them you can get them atmy COOP page (http://www14.brinkster.com/triggerhappy770/default.htm)

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WUAF_Badsight
07-14-2004, 11:02 PM
i cant believe the amount of people that can be bothered to use the keyboard keys ? ! ? ! ?

panning is impossible !

mouse vision is by far the smoothest , most controllable view control there is : )

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!"
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

HART_dreyer
07-15-2004, 03:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
i cant believe the amount of people that can be bothered to use the keyboard keys ? ! ? ! ?

panning is impossible !

mouse vision is by far the smoothest , most controllable view control there is : )
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you have available hands to use the mouse? If I had 3 hands I might be able to use mouse.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

Nanuk66
07-15-2004, 05:52 AM
Thanks for the replies.

Its probably not something (TiR) im gonna go out and buy but id love to give it a go sometime and see how it feels.

Until then, i might give the keyboard more of a go, a la Dreyer.

-----------------------------
English lesson 101:
The word is 'Lose' not 'Loose'. e.g.
That IL2 is gonna lose the fight against that 109.
That IL2's wing looks loose, its gonna fall off.
If i dive too vertically i will lose my wing. k thx.
------------------------------

BM357_PREACHER
07-15-2004, 02:55 PM
I have a serious problem with Trac IR. When I drink beer using trac ir my vision gets blurred and sometime I see double. Has anyone else experienced this.

Crying won't help you
Praying won't do you no good

Hell's Fire and Hot Lead
The Preacher

Arms1
07-16-2004, 03:40 AM
i have tir2 and fly as close to fr as i can, i absolutely love it and would be very handicapped without it,i started using tir almost as soon as i came over to fb from another sim, just couldn't master the mouse view, i dont think its advantage lies in the view system but in having another hand free for your hotas or keyboard, of the seven pilots i regularily fly with only two of us use it( all, myself excluded are exceptional pilots and chances are that if you fly fr you have been on the recieving end) one of the guy's had it and went back to using his mouse because thats what he was comfortable with, so it's all a question of fit and what you are comfortable with, it is definately not a gamebreaker by any means (well for me it is), bottom line is that tir guys are shot down everyday by non tir guys....

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v258/idcflashman/flashsig2.jpg

Bearcat99
07-16-2004, 06:57 AM
When I got my TIR I got it more for the immersion factor than the competitive aspects. To me its all about the fun and the enjoyment of what you are doing.

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IMMERSION BABY!!

Klarkash
07-16-2004, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carguy_:
I do pretty good without TrackIR.It took me 3 months to use numpad without thinking about it though.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is the point, you have to be able to use whatever view system without thinking.

For me, I have a cougar and the thing is too big! trying to control views with the hatswitch needed serious thumb stretching! I never got used to it.

TiR is great, and (for me) took no getting used to. No thought required while using it either, so you can think about other things. Highly recommended, but not a requirement.

reminds me a bit of racing games, of the wheel/pedals vs joystick argument. Several of the best online racers I know use joysticks, wheels are fantastic ( I wouldn't go back top joystick) but not essential.

Klarkash
07-16-2004, 07:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brimigus:
sometimes the trackir can screw u up especialy if you use the external padlocks,u really have to keep hitting the f12 button eveytime u go back to cockpit or elese sometimes your looking .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

does that happen when you are in enhanced mode? I don't use external views, so couldn't say, but I thought that was mouse emulation mode issue.

Klarkash
07-16-2004, 07:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_PREACHER:
I have a serious problem with Trac IR. When I drink beer using trac ir my vision gets blurred and sometime I see double. Has anyone else experienced this.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but it's definitely not the beers problem, as I get it when drinking wine, whisky or even port. Must be the TiR

KGr.HH-Sunburst
07-16-2004, 07:41 AM
I fly full difficult without TIR i just use the HAT switch POV on my stick i do pretty well with it although its far from smooth and easy to use ,i got a very sensitive stick so using my thumb on the HAT is a bit tricky but once used to it its OK and now i can look very quick in all directions i NEVER use pan snap views though i just hate that

There is something i dont get ,how can some guys use the mouse to look around in a dogfight ? i need both hands on my MS SW2 and X45 so i cant use the mouse at all

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x__CRASH__x
07-16-2004, 11:50 AM
I'm just learning to use my TrackIR. I've flown lots without it. If Padlock is on I'll use it. If not, then I use the hatswitch. I use snap view, but I know guys, like JimmyGiro, who use pan view.

Just some FYI for ya.

Ghost Skies. The Premier IL2FB Dogfight League. (http://www.ghostskies.com)
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CWoS FB/PF forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum)

Dnmy
07-16-2004, 12:16 PM
Ofcourse trackIR is no requirement.

It just makes the experience a lot more enjoyable. That is ofcourse, once you get used to using it.

Before that happens, you're just cannonfodder.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifj/k

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"