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JG26_Heinrich
02-05-2004, 08:17 AM
i guess 630 kmh tas at level is a little fast 4 a k4.
after loosing some dogfights against a manuell prop pitcher in a dogfight room (k4 vs k4) i was wondering why he was so much faster.
i made some tests and found out that it is very easy to make the k4 45 kmh faster then it should.
this cheat is very easy to handle and if u are a little carefully yr engine will run fine all the time. works with all german planes i guess.
i hate it. i want a plane with realistic speed.
not to fast and not to slow. just realistic.
http://www.treffnix.onlinehome.de/quick0250.ntrk

JG26_Heinrich
02-05-2004, 08:17 AM
i guess 630 kmh tas at level is a little fast 4 a k4.
after loosing some dogfights against a manuell prop pitcher in a dogfight room (k4 vs k4) i was wondering why he was so much faster.
i made some tests and found out that it is very easy to make the k4 45 kmh faster then it should.
this cheat is very easy to handle and if u are a little carefully yr engine will run fine all the time. works with all german planes i guess.
i hate it. i want a plane with realistic speed.
not to fast and not to slow. just realistic.
http://www.treffnix.onlinehome.de/quick0250.ntrk

michapma
02-05-2004, 08:32 AM
It might be that the automatic prop control system on the K4 is engineered to be on the conservative side, and that with manual control the pilot can drive the engine harder and get more performance. A whole 45kph sounds like a lot though. If you are going to start quoting TAS you'd better specify altitude.

Should be interesting to have a look at the track.

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JG26_Heinrich
02-05-2004, 08:35 AM
627 tas at level. may be u can fly faster. 4 me 627 tas was enough. was my first test.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by michapma:
It might be that the automatic prop control system on the K4 is engineered to be on the conservative side, and that with manual control the pilot can drive the engine harder and get more performance. A whole 45kph sounds like a lot though. If you are going to start quoting TAS you'd better specify altitude.

Should be interesting to have a look at the track.

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ISU-152
02-05-2004, 08:36 AM
Finally exposed. Thank-you.

PriK
02-05-2004, 08:45 AM
When I fly luft I use manual pitch all the time, and besides making it more of a fun ride it really does add that much extra performance.

The question is whether it is realistic or not. If it isn't, I would grudgingly ask for it to be fixed as well but it will remove an extra skill factor from the game. Oh well.

However, I would think, like Michapma said, that auto-pitch simply keeps the RPMs at a more conservative number quite simply and flying with it higher is flyer beware.

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VW-IceFire
02-05-2004, 08:46 AM
Perhaps its possible that its been swung a bit too far both ways. The manual prop pitch control gives too much speed and the auto prop pitch control takes away too much? The real question is...did the K4 achieve these speeds at low level?

The 627 TAS at sea level...seems faster than even the La-7 at such a height.

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p1ngu666
02-05-2004, 09:07 AM
i use manual pitch in the 190 sometimes. so ive got 110% combat? power, wep, and ehp
emergancey hax power http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
if i try in a 109 i just get a dead engine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Slammin_
02-05-2004, 09:12 AM
Using manual prop pitch in the 109's and 190's makes it almost impossible to stall as well as make some good bat turns at slow speed if you know how to use it. I'd hate to lose that!

michapma
02-05-2004, 09:17 AM
If I may take a wild guess, it was not used by the Luftwaffe pilots. Some of our history buffs may appear here and enlighten us, but I have never heard of it being used as described. It was there for emergency procedures and, I believe, for landing.

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Chadburn
02-05-2004, 11:21 AM
Well, Heinrich. Your track doesn't work so I can't comment.

Edit: Ok, got your track to work. This has been a problem with LW planes all along. Remember the 104% throttle exploit before? there always seem to be some issue with the way the autoprop system is modelled. It has never produced the best performance all along and every LW pilot I know uses manual because of this.






http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg

[This message was edited by Chadburn on Thu February 05 2004 at 10:45 AM.]

GR142_Astro
02-05-2004, 11:55 AM
What, are you guys already tired of watching G2 and K4 "pilots" make countless mistakes only to be able to disengage at will by engaging the prop pitch exploit and helicopter away?

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____________________________
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WUAF_Badsight
02-05-2004, 12:28 PM
basically the auto system for LW planes disadvantages them

why not just give the Bf & FW their proper RPM in auto ..? , that seems to be fair doesnt it ?

then switching to manuel is more work & can be tricky but goes ahead & gives a overboost in performance that is above what it could do IRL ?!?!?!

is something wrong here ? ...... yes it is

Fennec_P
02-05-2004, 12:41 PM
The auto pitch was set conservatively to increase engine life. In reality, bf-109K4 could do 780km/h at sea level.

But seriously, its probably just one of those things that can't be fixed, otherwise they would have already. The engine model is too complicated for its own good.

Maybe in BoB we get accurate modelling of RPM and prop pitch.

michapma
02-05-2004, 01:05 PM
I figure the stuff we have now is either growing pains or already set in concrete code. Could be that it's so complex that they're just going to keep using what they've got to avoid having to program it from scratch, or, as we all hope, they'll take what they've learned and implement a reeeaaally cool system for BoB and future sims. As it is, we can hardly complain about the improvement over IL-2, no?

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JG26Red
02-05-2004, 01:10 PM
i still dont know the proper way to use prop pitch, i fly FWs normally, and sometimes when i go to 100per it speeds up, other times it seems to slow, i notice in the D series if i go to 100per it slows the plane? should i be going to like 70? or what? lol, i just dont understand proppitch at all

JG26Red
02-05-2004, 01:23 PM
hey locust? did u kick me last night? i didnt mean to run into ya??? just doing head to head...?

F19_Ob
02-05-2004, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by michapma:
If I may take a wild guess, it was not used by the Luftwaffe pilots. Some of our history buffs may appear here and enlighten us, but I have never heard of it being used as described. It was there for emergency procedures and, I believe, for landing.

http://giap.webhop.info

_http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/_ | http://www.forgottenskies.com/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Finnish 109 aces used autofunctions on proppitch. Radiator fully open at takeoff (109 overheated easily while taxiing) and on auto for all the rest of the flying including combat.

I cant produce an exact source but i think it is mentioned in some of the articles on virtualpilots.fi

links to articles below

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/


I cant remember any of them changing anything exept the radiator on takeoff.

cheers


Shakespear once wrote "......Lysander found....".

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-05-2004, 01:30 PM
The 109 engine is designed to run at 2500RPM or something like that. If you get the engine to 3000+rpm with manual prop-pitch, of course you get alot of additional power. However, you are screwing the eninge. I don't think you can maintain that speed forever.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

WUAF_Badsight
02-05-2004, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
MAKE SURE YOU GIVE ALTITUDE WITH YOUR SPEED MR.HINEY & USE TRUE AIR SPEED NOT IAS !!!

UNBELIVABLE ! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well its funny that a AFJ says that

they didnt understand about TAS in their KI-84 whine thread ........

ajafoofoo
02-05-2004, 01:34 PM
Wow, I hope all AFJ aren't such egomaniacs.

SKULLS_LZ
02-05-2004, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26_Heinrich:
i guess 630 kmh tas at level is a little fast 4 a k4.
after loosing some dogfights against a manuell prop pitcher in a dogfight room (k4 vs k4) i was wondering why he was so much faster.
i made some tests and found out that it is very easy to make the k4 45 kmh faster then it should.
this cheat is very easy to handle and if u are a little carefully yr engine will run fine all the time. works with all german planes i guess.
i hate it. i want a plane with realistic speed.
not to fast and not to slow. just realistic.
http://www.treffnix.onlinehome.de/quick0250.ntrk<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome to the forum JG26_Heinrich! There is already a fix for this "cheat" as you call it.

Go into your difficulty settings. There is a switch to turn off "Complex Engine Management".

Let us know if you have any other questions, there are always folks eager to help new guys such as yourself!

S!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Yeah I vulched ya. Now put a cork in it and pick another base before I bust a c@p in your sorry @ss.

michapma
02-05-2004, 02:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
The 109 engine is designed to run at 2500RPM or something like that. If you get the engine to 3000+rpm with manual prop-pitch, of course you get alot of additional power. However, you are screwing the eninge. I don't think you can maintain that speed forever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The various 109 engines can run at various MP and rpm values. For the 109E it's 2100rpm, for the F it's 2500, and the G and further types can go higher. I believe the K4 is supposed to be able to run at 2900 or higher, and it depends on whether you're talking about normal rated full power or WEP emergency power.

I took the K4 out on the Smolensk map at 300m or so. The fuel load had a lesser effect than I expected. In any case, although I didn't try very long, I never even got it above 600kph, or much above 560kph IAS. With or without 110% throttle and MW50. I adjusted the prop manually to get 3100rpm and it didn't rocket me up. I'm sure there was some speed increase though.

Just as a first impression I'd say there may well be a difference, but it doesn't seem that dramatic for level flight. I'd also say someone else could prove me wrong. Obviously Heinrich was able to get it going faster than me, although I don't understand his technique. He seemed to be switching between auto and manual, the tach shooting back and forth between 3500 and 3000 as he switched between auto and 95% manual.

I'm a bit bummed out because I had two easy kills lined up in Forgotten Skies just now. Caught two AI 109s cruising low and slow, might have been G2s, and went down to investigate in my Yak-1. Had to break out of my dive to reduce speed, I started from over angels 4. Hammered the first one even though they broke before I fired. I started a long, drawn out fight with the other one, him doing his astounding AI high AoA maneuvers, me zooming up, turning to get him off me if he got too close. At one point he started to run away, so I fired off all my cannon and rockets, even landed a cannon round or two. He came back around. They are able to pull up at very low energy and pull off snap shots, and this guy took advantage of about a 1/4 second opportunity as he nosed up and I passed at a fair distance 90 degrees in front and above... and pilot-killed me!!! I heard two little snaps and saw black. If people could really shoot like that...

So much for that persona. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif And right after two potential kills. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif He was smoking, but might have made it home. I hate when I die stupidly, could have controlled the fight and had it over sooner if my deflection shooting were better in those Yaks.

Guess I'll go pout now. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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WUAF_Badsight
02-05-2004, 05:21 PM
if you are trying to get aSL top speed thats used as a compare ....

it has to be gotten with 100% fuel ... ammo loaded & flying at 50m

kyrule2
02-05-2004, 08:56 PM
Without reading the whole thread;

Manual prop-pitch only lets the 190A reach its indicated speeds in object viewer. The top speed of the 190A's on "auto" are much lower.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

BaldieJr
02-05-2004, 09:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
lmao you get shot down a few time by me & then you come here & say manual proppitch is CHEATING

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

WHY DO YOU THINK OLEG ADDED IT ?? SO THAT PEOPLE WHO USE IT WOULD HAVE SOME ADVANTAGE RIGHT, WHY IN THE HECK ELSE WOULD ANYONE EVER USE IT SINCE AUTOMATIC IS SO MUCH EASYER, DONT MAKE ME HUNT YOU FOR LIFE!!!

COMING HERE & CRYING ABOUT PROP PITCH IS TRULY THE SIGN OF A POOR SPORT... YOUR BETTER THAN THAT !!!

PS I WAS NEVER GOING 645 OR WHATEVER YOU SAID LOL

MAKE SURE YOU GIVE ALTITUDE WITH YOUR SPEED MR.HINEY & USE TRUE AIR SPEED NOT IAS !!!

UNBELIVABLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I were president of the universe, I would print this, frame it, and hang it in the presidential office.

This is a classic, worthy of quoting time and time again.

Ki84 is overmodelled. Also, I'd like to point out that Oleg put oil-temp/oil pres/coolant temp guages in the cockpit so you should use them.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

RedDeth
02-05-2004, 10:42 PM
this thread is misnamed. manual prop pitch is not a cheat. also manual prop pitch on the deck in k4 is not that fast. your fighting against k4s that had energy and dove for deck. i always get caught when im in my k4 on the deck. LA7s and Doras and fw190A9s catch me every time and im very good with manual prop. heinrich i flew against u for a long time that night. your decent. but the k4 has been tested ad nauseum and the verdict is the k4 on the deck will get caught by yaks las doras and fws. its not a good place to be in a k4 even if your a master of manual prop. your whole thread is in error. no offense. its just wrong this time

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michapma
02-06-2004, 01:15 AM
Baldie, just a small point, but not all of the coolant gauges work. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

RedDeth, I agree, the thread is misnamed.

The aircraft stats at il2sturmovik.com show the Kurfurst as having a top speed on the deck of 580 kph. I concur, that's about what I was able to milk out of her, including using 3100rpm and overheating after about a minute. I had trouble with my trim though, and may have done better if I could have held it steady. To his credit, in the track Heinrich was able to eek it up to well over 600 TAS, although it took a while.

I concur with RedDeth, although Heirich does point out that he was talking about K4 vs. K4. In any case, his complaint of wanting "a plane with realistic speed" seems a bit odd. To get his "easy" 45kph (or so) extra, he has to patiently fly in a straight line for something over a minute. On top of that, why demand "realistic speed" when you're not flying in a realistic setting? If you want to fly d/f servers in K4 vs. K4, then just take what you have and game. This is not directed specifically at Heinrich, I just find it illogical to hold the modeling to real standards when you don't even try to hold yourself to them.

It would be great if someone could clearly outline for me the best methods for getting extra juice out of the manual prop controls. If someone does this for various aircraft (and provides tracks), I will most certainly be willing to work it into the CEM guide as a special section (not part of the main explanations, but there for all to see).

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AFJ_Locust
02-06-2004, 01:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
If I were president of the universe, I would print this, frame it, and hang it in the presidential office.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whats wrong Baldie did you get Killed one to many times as well ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

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BlindHuck
02-06-2004, 01:53 AM
As a pilot and professional mechanic (IRL)- the only way to maximize performance (speed) is with the (constant speed) prop set at MAX (100%) rpm. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Full stop.
And I have never heard of anyone running prop to low rpm on approach to slow an aircraft. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif The prop governor is usually out of its operating range at idle in which case the prop won't respond anyway. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Prop in low pitch/rpm at high(er) speed is somewhat of a rotating airbrake (airflow over blade at neg AOA).
Steve Hinton told me that when Red Baron motor (Shackleton Griffon contra-prop) locked up at Reno 80(?) it felt like a parachute opened up behind plane. (Six blades fixed vs. three blades rotating . . .but still. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )

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AFJ_Locust
02-06-2004, 02:14 AM
Ok I did a lil test of my own.....

Using CEM, default loadout, 100% fuel, on the deck the whole time....

Average speed with Radiator on auto was near 570kmh IAS.

Radiator closed average speed was 578 IAS or so...

the absolute fastest I went was 605IAS & that was only cuz I was able to lower my nose due to a dip in the terain....

You canot go 645 @ sealevel & if you did your dam good LOL !!!

PS. CEM http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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AFJ_Locust
02-06-2004, 02:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ajafoofoo:
Wow, I hope all AFJ aren't such egomaniacs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not an egomaniack Fact is Hieny & myself were going @ it & he was getting killed....

He is Dam good better than most, after the game was over I came here for a look around & seen his post http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just giving him some love http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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CARBONFREEZE
02-06-2004, 03:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kyrule2:
Without reading the whole thread;

Manual prop-pitch only lets the 190A reach its indicated speeds in object viewer. The top speed of the 190A's on "auto" are much lower.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true.

Russian aircraft require skill to fly.
German aircraft require ten times that skill, and one hundred times the patience!

WUAF_CO_CRBNFRZ on HyperLobby

JG26_Heinrich
02-06-2004, 03:56 AM
i thing this manuell prop pitching is the same like using flaps as airbreaks, trim on a slider using 4 badturns (greetings to RayBanJockey http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ), turning off the engine during flight to cool down the engine in a second and so on.
this all was fixed.
we will see what happens after the next patch.

WUAF_Badsight
02-06-2004, 04:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
your whole thread is in error. no offense. its just wrong this time <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


is it really ? ... the manuel pitch allows you to hold higher revs than AUTO allows ...... as it should

but the K4's motor suddenly gets a protective agent squirted inside because you have switched to Manuel as you can hold Revs that would terminte the real life K4

any revs over 3000 RPM were terminal for those BMW's

LeadSpitter_
02-06-2004, 04:20 AM
manual in the 190s dont seem to do much and the engine takes more of a beat, in the 109s he is right, around 40-50 extra kmph with manual, you can run at 3500rpms for a good ammount of time f-k the Emils dont like past 3200rpms.

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
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AFJ_Locust
02-06-2004, 04:30 AM
lmao I just watched your track no wonder you called it cheating..........!!!

Ive never done what you were just doing thats why i couldnt reach your 645 top speed....

Maybe Oleg will force CEM ON with no Auto available just like if you disable CEM then you cant use any cem at all....

If cem is inabled then NO AUTOMATIC Should be available at all !!!

This explains alot of things about a few pilots ive seen flying http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
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AFJ_Locust
02-06-2004, 04:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
manual in the 190s dont seem to do much and the engine takes more of a beat, in the 109s he is right, around 40-50 extra kmph with manual, you can run at 3500rpms for a good ammount of time f-k the Emils dont like past 3200rpms.

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lEAD you must use cem in doras if you want them to fly right but that switching auto/100 wont give the same effect in a dora. I dont think.

but I use a wide range of Prop pitch using CEM not autoflipping to achive speed

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Hunter82
02-06-2004, 04:39 AM
Need we remind everyone that 90% of the LW Experten made the majority of their kills in the F4 and G2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for manual vs auto prop pitch there is really no advantage IMO in TAS due to time limits and overheating/engine damage if used for too long.

I'd just like a working Revi in the g2 and up and all FW's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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WWMaxGunz
02-06-2004, 04:51 AM
It's not like the CSP systems are modelled perfectly true. Instant-instant response and never blow the engine. But quick neuter those 109's, somebody has seen them too fast in a fight as even if other people can't seem to get the same with careful testing it was seen in a fight.

What is this crap about changing back and forth from manual to auto to manual, etc? Exploit there, I'd bet! Again, it's not like it's the only one.

Get used to the idea that reality or even really close to true is just too frikking detailed to simulate on todays PC's or even those to be out years from now. Even if the hardware was so good, the amount of coding and checking bits would be an unholy amount of work.

The idea is to first identify and then remove the exploits and not have something else easier but non-accurate be changed. If there's an exploit allowing overspeed for the 109K then say what it is, how you were able to get that speed. Don't just come yelling to slow these planes down since people not using the special trick can't get the extra speed. IF THERE IS A TRICK AT ALL, IF THE SPEED WASN'T DUE TO ALT LOSS, AN ONLINE CONDITION OR JUST BAD OBSERVATION.

Use of manual pitch control is not an exploit in itself, it is in the sim on purpose by the developer. Not perfect but neither is the other prop system. Get used to it.


Neal

michapma
02-06-2004, 05:01 AM
Well certainly the Emils should not be able to hold even close to 3200, as their recommended max is 2100. With a real engine I could imagine pushing 2300 for a short time, but 3200? On a side note, I'm not sure why Oleg endowed the Emil with an automatic mechanism, as I understand it their pilots were stuck with manual control. Perhaps out of consideration to the many leisure FB pilots. For realism, I reckon the Emil should be flown with manual only. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

The Focke Wulfs don't actually have manual prop control. When switched out of auto (what I understand to be an aeromechanical system like the ones on the 109s), it doesn't behave as a variable-pitch prop system. This is verified by the blade angle indicator (the clock-like dial with yellow hands) and the tachometer. The system still changes blade angle in order to maintain rpm, it behaves more like a limited constant-speed prop. The range of rpms is limited in comparison to Allied designs, but it is definitely displaying a similar behavior to CSPs.

When RedDeth wrote that Heinrich's thread is in error, I understood that he was misinterpreting the thread as comparing the K4 to other aircraft. In fact, Heinrich was comparing K4s with each other. There is absolutely no question that you can push the rpms higher on manual control than with auto, and also get them from low to high much more quickly that with auto. That is all fine and as it should be. Whether the penalty from such pilot action corresponds to real engine behavior is beyond my experience, but the modeling seems questionable. Possibly its exploitation was not tested as it was not thought of or else not anticipated as becoming a problem. (I don't know whether it really is.)

In any case my offer stands, if anyone wants to do a bit of explanation and documentation I will put a special section in my guide.

Cheers,
Mike

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michapma
02-06-2004, 05:05 AM
Hunter you're being a bad boy. Remember, this is not about historical fights, this is about obsession with the biggest and baddest for our online doggyfights. Stop bringing up the actual war. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunter82:
Need we remind everyone that 90% of the LW Experten made the majority of their kills in the F4 and G2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for manual vs auto prop pitch there is really no advantage IMO in TAS due to time limits and overheating/engine damage if used for too long.

I'd just like a working Revi in the g2 and up and all FW's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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michapma
02-06-2004, 05:10 AM
Neal, you're probably right about not blowing the engine. I would especially like to see more attention given to detonation and partial reduction of ability to develop full manifold pressure as a result of overstressing the CSP engines. But I'm not sure just what you mean by "instant-instant response. They don't respond instantly. Again, I'm not pilot... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
It's not like the CSP systems are modelled perfectly true. Instant-instant response and never blow the engine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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JG26_Heinrich
02-06-2004, 05:33 AM
here another track from the same day. first i picked up a friendly k4 which was starting 20 secs earlier. then i used this cheat to make from time to time extra speed. only one time i used it to late, because a pony had to much alt advantage and i didnt saw him.
as i said it was my first try and i was busy not to damage my engine. i thing all hosts should disable cem. with this cheat u dont have to be carefull. u can fly near ground with a german plane without fear. (if only red planes on the other side) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://www.treffnix.onlinehome.de/quick0252.ntrk
il2 becomes more and more cfs.

[This message was edited by JG26_Heinrich on Fri February 06 2004 at 04:57 AM.]

BaldieJr
02-06-2004, 07:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
If I were president of the universe, I would print this, frame it, and hang it in the presidential office.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whats wrong Baldie did you get Killed one to many times as well ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't change the subject. Even if my piloting skills mattered, we aren't talking about that at the moment. We're talking about how you come and post in all caps when someone mentions cheating.

I've noticed a pattern to this. AFJ is ALWAYS in threads like this, and always very emotional in thier responses.

Those with IQ's above that of a grapefruit might wonder whats going on with AFJ.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>

AFJ_Locust
02-07-2004, 03:30 AM
LMAO

I came into this post mouth to give hieny a hard time... CEM is not a cheat but if you read any of the posts that I posted earlyer in this thred you would have seen that I said if cem is inabled then AUTO should be disabled, that would solve the problem !!!

And just off the record every time you see me post anything your on it Spaming & Trolling like a Overwight Troll ***** !!!
You need to go on a FORUM Diet Troll Master.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg

[This message was edited by AFJ_Locust on Sat February 07 2004 at 12:49 PM.]

AFJ_Locust
02-07-2004, 03:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26_Heinrich:

I thing all hosts should disable cem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No what needs to happen is have an update that allows servers to DISABLE AUTOMATIC just like there is for DISABLING CEM.

If there is no Automatic in a CEM server then theres no more Exploit...

Its not a cheat its a flaw in the game that needs to be fixed

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg

AFJ_Locust
02-07-2004, 03:41 AM
Hunter if you get a min watch Hienys track in his first post.

It is a seriouse exploit of CEM

I call it Auto-Fliping LOL

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg

AFJ_Locust
02-07-2004, 03:52 AM
Michapma the problem/exploit Hinerich is speaking of is not the actualy use of CEM

What hes talking about is Fliping between a very high CEM PropPitch & Automatic-cem it seems that this exploit is real & definataly needs to be PATCHED IMO.

Im not going to go into details how to do it just DL Hienrich's Track & you can watch him do it... its bad very bad indead!!!

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg

Tully__
02-07-2004, 05:03 AM
Baldie, Locust..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

=================================================

http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/Corsair.jpg (http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm)

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)


Salut
Tully

JtD
02-07-2004, 05:46 AM
Bf 109 Emils were fitted with constant speed props as well as with standard props. By 1941, the majority had csp.

The 190 had two things, kommandoger√¬§t and csp. Switching off auto might only switch off kommandoger√¬§t.

Why should auto be disabled with CEM on? That is nonsense. Planes had auto pitch. This wouldn't fix a problem, but produce one.

blabla0001
02-07-2004, 05:50 AM
They need to remove the over ride button so that planes with auto pitch controls cannot use manual pitch controls.

ZG77_Lignite
02-07-2004, 10:17 AM
For Michapma:

I would disagree with JtD, in that Bf109 Emils (and all other Bf109's) did not recieve an actual constant speed prop, they where retrofitted with a governor system to control prop pitch (imho). Probably just semantics, as the end result is the same, an 'auto' type system to manage the engine.

I do agree about the FW190A, it Did have a Constant Speed Prop (manual mode in FB), in conjunction with the the complex engine control of the Kommandergerat (auto mode in FB).

michapma
02-07-2004, 01:29 PM
That's a lot of mechanism for the FW, wonder why the redundancy? Interesting if they didn't have the possibility of manual control. Some CSP Allied aircraft had the possibility to switch to manual for emergencies.

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AFJ_Locust
02-07-2004, 01:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
Baldie, Locust..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
Tully<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry man but this punk is alwayes screaming cheator http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Ill back off

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg

BfHeFwMe
02-07-2004, 03:16 PM
What will fix the props more than anything is having overspeed limits. Not solely engine RPM's but prop tips going supersonic, shuttering and than disintigrating.

mike_espo
02-07-2004, 04:24 PM
I think that guys who can use manual prop pitch in a 109 and not blow the engine deserve the "added" performance. I always fly 109s and only switch to manual in certain situations. In combat situations, I mostly blow the engine.

Chadburn
02-07-2004, 05:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cappadocian_317:
They need to remove the over ride button so that planes with auto pitch controls cannot use manual pitch controls.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought the idea was to create a sim based on historical accuracy. What you're suggesting has no merit.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg

WWMaxGunz
02-07-2004, 06:06 PM
Needs to be the engine pressure rises and lowers with load as well as rpm limits and both needing to have time elements. I wonder if those are all too much for the FB simulation "engine" (the code & data)?

The cheat is possible maybe because in each mode the engine is treated differently. Perhaps the time element is there but switching modes breaks the "memory" used. He does have to watch out on how long he uses this.


Neal

AFJ_Locust
02-08-2004, 01:55 AM
Hienrich did you send the ntrk to Oleg ???

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg

AFJ_Locust
02-08-2004, 02:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26_Heinrich:
i guess 630 kmh tas at level is a little fast 4 a k4. after loosing some dogfights against a manuell prop pitcher in a dogfight room (k4 vs k4) i was wondering why he was so much faster.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heinrich just so you know, I was not doing what your doing in your trak during our fights, I was using pure CEM, didnt even know about this Exploit untill you posted this track, I hate this Exploit & Im glad you posted the track so maybe it will be fixed SOON... Salute !!!

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg

BaldieJr
02-08-2004, 09:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
Baldie, Locust..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
Tully<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry man but this punk is alwayes screaming cheator http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Ill back off

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200458.jpg
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1072200474.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The forum search works. Feel free to provide proof of this accusation.

If all else fails, lie.

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
______ _____
(, / ) /) /) , (, /
/---( _ // _(/ _ / __ ,""""]
+----/ ____)(_(_(/_(_(__(__(/____/__/ (__--------,' /---+
| / ( / ,' NR / |
|(_/ ..-""``"'-._ (_/ __,' 42 _/ |
+-.-"" "-..,____________/7,.--"" __]-----+

</pre>