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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:50 AM
Ok, I'm not one to complain, but just a while ago, I was outclimbed and then blown away by a P-39. I started my climb at approx 650kph. The rate at which he closed the gap was insane. I didn't even try to turn away to avoid him because I was dumbfounded.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif



http://www.stuartairshow.com/images/p51mustangs.jpg


Message Edited on 09/04/03 10:50PM by Bamatt

Message Edited on 09/04/0310:51PM by Bamatt

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:50 AM
Ok, I'm not one to complain, but just a while ago, I was outclimbed and then blown away by a P-39. I started my climb at approx 650kph. The rate at which he closed the gap was insane. I didn't even try to turn away to avoid him because I was dumbfounded.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif



http://www.stuartairshow.com/images/p51mustangs.jpg


Message Edited on 09/04/03 10:50PM by Bamatt

Message Edited on 09/04/0310:51PM by Bamatt

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:55 AM
And you were of course in the bf-109 g14, which now accelerates like a brick.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:55 AM
maybe he started his at 700kph?

maybe the P39 has low drag and soesn't lose speed as quickly as whatever you were flying?

maybe he simply dived lower than you to get higher speed rather than following you?

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:05 AM
Bamatt wrote:
- Ok, I'm not one to complain, but just a while ago, I
- was outclimbed and then blown away by a P-39. I
- started my climb at approx 650kph. The rate at which
- he closed the gap was insane. I didn't even try to
- turn away to avoid him because I was dumbfounded.

What plane were you flying?

I fly the P-39, La7, P-47 and Pe-8 almost everday.

The P-39 is slower then the La7 and Bf109 ect. But it dose have a good dive speed. I can dive from 2000m and get up to 700kmph without killing myself.

I bet the guy was diving down on you while you were starting to climb. But i wasn't there.

Just saying it isn't a very fast plane. Also i find it bleeds speed faster now while turnig, since the final patch.






Message Edited on 09/05/0304:07AM by VF_310thSilent

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:06 AM
I really dont care, because this community has come to the point where 75% of it will say a plane is overmodled because it killed them a few times. OMFG!! THE PBY IS OVERMODLED!! NERF IT!!. ALl i can say is that in Real life, noone really liked the p-39, except the russians. The us didnt want it, neither did the british. But the VVS loved it's 37mm.

http://www.geocities.com/bs87cr/190sig.txt

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:08 AM
Forgot to mention, I was in a G6A/S. We were diving with him behind me, I left him in the dive, then pulled up slowly and figured I would do the same in the climb, boy was I wrong.

This was at 110% with the MW50 on.



http://www.stuartairshow.com/images/p51mustangs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:09 AM
p 39 is accurate. just because you got shot up by it doesnt mean its overmodeled

flying online as 25th_Inmate



http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/inmate.jpg



Message Edited on 09/04/0311:10PM by ryan2107

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:11 AM
Yeah in real life plane sucked horribly and in this game its uber. bah meh oh wells its game. at least we didnt have to fly it for real otherwise it woulda been uber 109s sand 190s.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:12 AM
Thats not what I am saying at all, if you would read a little closer.I've been shot up by P-39's plenty of times, and never comlained. I just think its a little weird that he closed a gap that big in a zoom climb.

http://www.stuartairshow.com/images/p51mustangs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:15 AM
BS87 wrote:
- I really dont care, because this community has come
- to the point where 75% of it will say a plane is
- overmodled because it killed them a few times.
- OMFG!! THE PBY IS OVERMODLED!! NERF IT!!. ALl i can
- say is that in Real life, noone really liked the
- p-39, except the russians. The us didnt want it,
- neither did the british. But the VVS loved it's
- 37mm.

The US add no use for it in the Pecifc, it wasn't very good plane at high alt. THe Us version of the P-39 wasn't balanced, it was heavy, and didn't have the hors power.

The russions took it and removed alot of stuff to make it lighter. They added wights to get it balanced. When they were done there version of the P-39 was a very capable plane. It was an excenlt plane at low alt. ect.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:18 AM
Bamatt wrote:
- Forgot to mention, I was in a G6A/S. We were diving
- with him behind me, I left him in the dive, then
- pulled up slowly and figured I would do the same in
- the climb, boy was I wrong.
-
- This was at 110% with the MW50 on.
-
-
-
-
<img
- src="http://www.stuartairshow.com/images/p51mustan
- gs.jpg">
-

Were you flying under CEM? Maybe he was getting a bit more out of his plane than you were out of yours. Flying axis today, the P-39s seem much more realistic now than pre-1.1b. They are still incredibly dangerous, but I haven't seen any catch me in a climb right after taking off or pull off any other pre-1.1 UFO maneuvers. You can usually climb above them when they start turning hard and bleeding E (as they typically do when attacked). DON'T DOGFIGHT THE P-39!

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:18 AM
well i had a p-40 keep up with me and i was flying a Dora.... that got me ticked off then he was like momentum im like noooo u still kept in a straight run thats not momentum. either ways i manage to run out fuel and crash land.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 05:55 AM
PAk88mm wrote:
- well i had a p-40 keep up with me and i was flying a
- Dora.... that got me ticked off then he was like
- momentum im like noooo u still kept in a straight
- run thats not momentum. either ways i manage to run
- out fuel and crash land.

You have to be kidding?

What alt where you at?

How fast were you going?


There not a very fast plane. They can dive nice though. Up to 700kmph.

I mean hop in a P-40 and try it. You will have a diffurnt opinion.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 06:30 AM
In 1.1b the P-39 had a very excessive climbrate. Almost 50% too high.

Is this fixed in 1.1? Has anyone tested it? Before you mock someones post maybe you should.

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Message Edited on 09/04/0311:31PM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 06:31 AM
The Cobra is just silly. Its almost like its using a different set of physics than the rest of the planes.

As for the Soviet modified Cobras, exactly what do you think they did to it? Take off 150lbs of armor and double its climb rate. Talk about a myth.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 06:42 AM
I just tested P-39N1 climb rate. 100% fuel, summer, noon, 100% power.

Used 250IAS climb speed.

Object viewer: 6100m in <font color=red>8:30 </font>
I got: 6100m in <font color=red>7:34 </font>

So it isn't quite as overmodelled as it used to be (used to do 6100m in 6:30) but still is.





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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 09:43 AM
Well, all of a sudden the G-6 through G14 climb nearly a minute slower to 5000 than the G2. I dont really care, but the biggest question I have is why is there such a great difference from one patch to the next? Which is accurate? I understand tweaks and the word itself should mean minor fixes. But the FM is so different that it leads me to believe the original data used must not have been correct. Or, there was some sort of error somewhere along the line.

Either way, common sense suggests that as the war went on, planes got faster. We can all agree on that, correct? So why would Germany have opted to make their 109's slower? That's what this game is telling us when a 109 G-2 is faster than a late model 109 using MW50. Now I ask you, all numbers and data aside... Does that make any sense?

If that makes sense to you, then you would say that a race car driver that is getting beat would prefer to make a brand new race car that was slower than the one he is getting beat in, while his competition is making an even faster car.

I dont buy it. It makes no sense. You wiz kids with all your numbers can say what you want, but it's pretty plain to me, something is buggered. Either the early model 109's are still too fast in the climb, or something is off on the late modeled ones. And given the dreaded K-4 issue, I imagine the late models are incorrect.

Test it for yourself. See if you can get a G-6/AS to climb as fast as a G-2.

Here's what I think... I dont know much about game coding, but I do know about a lot about other programming. Sometimes when you make an adjustment to one thing, a whole string of other things happen. Some you dont realize are going to happen, some you do. Perhaps that's the issue with the K-4 rudder, and the nerfed climb rate of the late model Bf109's.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 12:14 PM
As far as the 109s, I'm no expert, but as time went on, didn't they get heavy, I mean, like 1000kg heavier? Is 500hp gonna make up for that? (Not using specific, accurate numbers here, just making an example) Look at the Yak 3 revision, it got lighter after all the lessons learned from Yak 1,7,and 9. The US did beef the hell out of the Cobra, adding armour and ruining its balance. The russians pulled off all kinds of gear and armour, even guns. (when have u ever heard of pilots willings to do without that little extra firepower, they wanted to save weight) Also, if the settings were CEM on, and you were using MW50, I bet ur radiator was wide open, slowing u down.... just a thought. of course, the P39 IS a little over done, but don't take it to extremes, there are a thousand factors in every fight and flight....

Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 12:24 PM
Fillmore is right on.

Original post doesn't give any indication of the p39's energy state.


That is like saying a pinto is faster than a mustang, then later saying "oh yeah, the pinto was going 80mph when the race started, I can't understand how I can't beat him"





S!
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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 12:27 PM
I dont consider it uber at all. 109's and 190's are still faster level and climb. Yes the P-39 has a GREAT zoom climb, but I was in a Q-10 and has about 1000M above a 190 D9. I dove down on it and it was still able to run away level! That was B4 1.1F. In 1.1F the P-39's are a bit more unstable. 109's and 190's still out run me but 190 A4 and A3's I can out climb. No read "great" advantage unless your stupid and try to turn fight in a 190.

Gib

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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 02:33 PM
Yes! As some1 mentioned , the p39 kan get its speed up in a dive , and in those speed the 109 is only marginally better. It also depends greatly what altitude the combat occurred. If it was below 3000m the 109 is on almost equal terms.

Americans and english didnt fancy the p39 because of its bad high altitude capabilities (high altitude was important to their tactics).P39 got bad reputation when they compared German fighters with it.But the tests where made at high altitude and not on its best altitude.


But in the Russian theatre combat was often at low altitude
where the p39 was at its best and the russians also made it lighter by removing unnecesary things like extra guns and such and also to balance the weight better(weights in nose part).

REMEMBER the cannon in the nose. One hit is often enough, even a stray shell at distance.So if the p39 comes within firing range at low altitudes the 109 is in trouble.It dsnt matter much that the 109 eventually will speed away, it is those seconds in range that matters ( u cant outfly a bullet) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Im not trying to say that a 109 is defenseless against the p39 . Ive out maneuvered p39's with 109's online and my own conclusion is that it depends on the "situation", "the pilot" and "LUCK".

GL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ZG77_Nagual
09-05-2003, 02:53 PM
Okay, I'll say this again - In the pacific early on the american dogfighting doctrine was turn fights - we got our butts handed to us when we tried to turnfight zeros. The brewster and the p39 and p40 were the planes on site at the time and they ALL got bad reputations (p-40 exception was the group in China who worked out intelligent tactics)- largely because of the tactics employed against the fragile but extremely agile zeros - which we attempted to fight on THEIR terms. Bottom line the p39 never got a fair run in the pacific.
The brits thought it good at low altitude - but that is not what they needed.

The brit and american performance charts are also based on the early p39d model - this is a plane that was heavily modified during it's evolution - we have only the n and q models in FB - you really cannot extrapolate based on evaluations of the D model - as the changes were fairly extensive. Nor can you draw conclusions about the aircrafts performance based on reports by pilots who never learned to use it's strengths. - They were given new planes AND new tactics - though the tendancy is to attribute success to the planes it was at least as much HOW they were flown.

The P39 is extremely clean aerodynamically - it retains energy well in a zoom, turn, and accelerates well in a dive - once the e advantage is lost it looses out to most later war types in raw power, static climb and flat out speed. But in dogfighting Zoom climb and e retention are very strong factors - and the 39 was very good in these areas.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 03:10 PM
I've viewing it in it's DM not it's FM. FM seems ok to me

I think the DM for p39 - it's performance doesn't drop even when it's been hammered.

This was in a 109G2 and a 109a5 (against a p39-N1)


S!
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Message Edited on 09/05/0302:11PM by Recon_609IAP

ZG77_Nagual
09-05-2003, 03:27 PM
I've found the wings on the p39 seem pretty fragile- a few hits and it becomes very tippy. On the other end - it is one of the easier planes to shoot down in terms of ammo expended. Also tends to blow right up when hit amidships even with a short 20mm burst.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 03:32 PM
Bamatt wrote:
- Ok, I'm not one to complain, but just a while ago, I
- was outclimbed and then blown away by a P-39. I
- started my climb at approx 650kph. The rate at which
- he closed the gap was insane. I didn't even try to
- turn away to avoid him because I was dumbfounded.



These threads would make me laugh if they weren't serious.

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif


Now on the other hand, people who actually think they should never be beaten by an inferior plane that was simply piloted better is hilarious.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif





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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 04:38 PM
p39n-1 was not especially good plane vertical,she could not stay against g2,f4 vertical

that is the base that russia remove outerguns and armour later p39q10


and p39n-1 drag is not good with 500km/h sealevel,


g2,f4 have more speed with not more power

p39q10 is other story,

she is improvement vertical and speed



Message Edited on 09/05/0307:50PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 06:13 PM
First off I have to say that the P-39 climb speeds have been knocked down to more realistic values, similar to earlier versions. Also I have noticed that the super zoom climb has been reinstated.
Online the other day I had a similar situation where the 109 driver was screaming bloody murder but what happened was not what he thought. I had a decent altitude advantage, a head full of steam and was stalking my prey. He noticed me preparing my pounce and went ito a dive. He took off in a dive and got away as I leveled out once I hit ~600Kmph. He proceeded to extend for quite some distance loosing his speed while I kept most of mine. He then went into a medium zoom climb. I dove a bit and very gently pulled onto his six. Where I promptly caught and peppered him before zooming right on by.
While he claimed bloody murder, I claimed pilot error.

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XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:11 PM
faustnik wrote:
- The Cobra is just silly. Its almost like its using
- a different set of physics than the rest of the
- planes.

Yes, it's because Oleg hates US-designed planes, I
mean German-designed planes I mean, er...

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 07:54 PM
Lunix wrote:

- While he claimed bloody murder, I claimed pilot
- error.


What should he have done instead? (Sounds very familiar - I'm usually the one in the 109!)

<center> http://www.autumnhullphoto.com/fbsig.jpg

.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:01 PM
AaronGT wrote:
-
- faustnik wrote:
-- The Cobra is just silly. Its almost like its using
-- a different set of physics than the rest of the
-- planes.
-
- Yes, it's because Oleg hates US-designed planes, I
- mean German-designed planes I mean, er...
-
-
-
-


Never mind me, I had a bad night last night. When I joined a DF my night got worse when my usual B&Z moves were not working as well post patch. Have to learn some new moves that's all.

ZG77_Nagual
09-05-2003, 08:06 PM
I had this problem to - mostly while flying the dora. I had no problems in the 190a9, 109f4, p47d10!!! or p39q10 - maybe I just got warmed up - seems like your really need to watch your zoom a little closer though.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:07 PM
JRH147 wrote:
- Lunix wrote:
-
-
-- While he claimed bloody murder, I claimed pilot
-- error.
-
-
- What should he have done instead? (Sounds very
- familiar - I'm usually the one in the 109!)
-
- <center> http://www.autumnhullphoto.com/fbsig.jpg

I dont know i mean he has a P-39 pouncing on him that already is moveing faster then him. Um, should he go into a dive to pick up speed then level out and go into a slight climb. Mean while the P-39 is laughing his but off while getting closrs and closer.

Then no more BF109.

The BF109 should have performed a split S. This way he would be going in the oposit derection. Then the P-39 would not have a shot and would speed by at a high rate of speed.

I also think it was pilot error.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:09 PM
The 109 is climbrate is undermodelled. It is of course difficult to judge in a zoom climb but try to compare with another aircraft at best climb speed.

I did an ex a while back and was outclimbed in a 109G6 by a P-51 which is unrealistic given that the 109 had about a 1000 ft/min climb advantage over the P-51. (In V1 this was correctly modelled and you could actually outclimb the yank).

Ooops! By posting this I will probably awaken the mighty "whining" posting community dedicated to stifling any serious discussion about performance.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:19 PM
Holtzauge wrote:
- The 109 is climbrate is undermodelled. It is of
- course difficult to judge in a zoom climb but try to
- compare with another aircraft at best climb speed.
-
- I did an ex a while back and was outclimbed in a
- 109G6 by a P-51 which is unrealistic given that the
- 109 had about a 1000 ft/min climb advantage over the
- P-51. (In V1 this was correctly modelled and you
- could actually outclimb the yank).
-
- Ooops! By posting this I will probably awaken the
- mighty "whining" posting community dedicated to
- stifling any serious discussion about performance.



Your kidding right, 1000ft per minute ?

Sorry man but if you dont post a link some were to prove your point, then i will have continue to think your full of it.

XyZspineZyX
09-05-2003, 08:21 PM
I allready see the flak comming up !!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 09:28 AM
VF_310thSilent wrote:
- Holtzauge wrote:
-- The 109 is climbrate is undermodelled. It is of
-- course difficult to judge in a zoom climb but try to
-- compare with another aircraft at best climb speed.
--
-- I did an ex a while back and was outclimbed in a
-- 109G6 by a P-51 which is unrealistic given that the
-- 109 had about a 1000 ft/min climb advantage over the
-- P-51. (In V1 this was correctly modelled and you
-- could actually outclimb the yank).
--
-- Ooops! By posting this I will probably awaken the
-- mighty "whining" posting community dedicated to
-- stifling any serious discussion about performance.
-
-
-
- Your kidding right, 1000ft per minute ?
-
- Sorry man but if you dont post a link some were to
- prove your point, then i will have continue to
- think your full of it.
-
-

What a nerve! Are you questioning my integrity!

OK seriously:here's the source

Luftwaffe Fighter Aces by Mike Spick:
Bf109G6: Best climbate 4560 ft/m
P51D: best climbrate 3475 ft/m

As you can see the differnece in there. Some sources give a lower difference but the fact is that it should be impossible to catch a climbing "beule" in a P51 if both aircraft have the same E level to begin with!

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 12:38 PM
There are some things off in the Cobra's FM which is just obvious.

1. It's climb is overmodelled. OK, it's not a D which climbs ~2300ft/min max - but it should not be much better in climb anyway. Turn and stability (especially the Q) - YES!, but everthing else - NO! It can climb ~4000ft/min max in FB. Above 3500-4000 it drops to "normal" regions.

2. Roll rate is too high - at least in N-1 and Q-1. All 3 models roll same good which doesn't make sense. Q-10 should roll like that maybe, but those wing guns (weight) should decrease roll just like the P-47's wing racks or 109 20mm gondolas.

3. It doesn't stall above ~320km/h IAS at all. Furthermore it's elevator becomes very bricky at high speeds. It should be similar to the FW, mavoeuverable at high speeds, but with a big spin danger. FW's controls however are overdone in the 1.1 patches, especially above 600 km/h IAS. They should be similar in "b1tchiness" IMHO - just one difference: FW is easier to recover from stalls and hard to spin. Of course the different P-39s should have different stall borders - I never saw that in any Il-2 version.



But even with that stuff corrected, it should be dangerous if controlled by a skilled pilot. Very good is it's aerodynamics which grants a very good zoom climb - on the other side it's a medium weight fighter, so it can also dive rather good. BnZ plane. It's also a decent TnB plane, if the pilot has the skill not to stall it. But it has ONE big minus over the 109s and 190s - the speed. Speeds are 500 - 540 on the deck... at the same times germans are always faster. But they can do the mistake to try to zoom climb in front of the P-39. Even with the P-39's relatively bad climb rate (like it was in Il-2) it could climb very good in a zoom and stay on the 109's six long enough to kill it. The skilled DE pilot should first climb at 500km/h here... or turn around (half cuban 8 or some other stuff), then climb after passing the '39. The key is to kill the P-39's energy - it can't make up energy as fast as the 109. But when it has the E - it's VERY dangerous. In Il-2 it was by far the most "it's the man - not the machine" plane IMHO - and that's what I wish for FB.


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