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LTARmoil
07-02-2004, 10:53 PM
Hello everyone, my name is Bill my handle is LTARmoil.
I am the CO of a GV squad in the {somewhat}massavely multiplayer online sim Aces High II. I have played IL2 since it first hit the shelves and has been my favorite sim of all time. However myself and others have kind of straid from the game ONLY due to it's limited number of players {multiplayer} and there is no manable GV's. To date we realize that IL2 is the most realistic WWII flight sim avail.
The reason for this post is to find out from Oleg himself OR the community if there is any way AT ALL we can bring this superb sim to the massively multiplayer arena?
I have taken this task upon myself to do everything in my power along with the help of my entire squad, not to mention approx 500 players from AH2 to help this sim make it to the MMP arena.
With Warbirds declining seriously in numbers, a lot of them moving to AH2 only to be disappointed in lack of realism, graphics and unstable game play. Unforunately there is NOTHING else avail in a MMP WWII combat genre of sims. I did some looking around and have found that there is almost as many squads for IL2 as there is for AH2, this is wonderful news.
I honestly beleive that if this sim were avail in a massively multiplayer arena, in a setting maybe similar to what AH is or Warbirds it would make history. {not to mention very profitable for Mr Maddox & UBI}
So, how do we get started? I have approx 500 names with signatures, all from very respected squads/players that want to make this a reality.
I have been playing AcesHigh for two years and I am very deeply involved in the AH community.
I don't wish anything negitive on Hightech Creations, but if myself and 1000 other players are going to spend $15 a month to participate than we should be getting are money's worth, and were not.
Please take me seriously when I say, I will help with anything to bring this sim to the massively multiplayer arena. I'm absolutely positive that the guys & gals from IL2 and AH2 would have a comradery of epic proportions.
Trust me when I say this is a passion.

Thank you all in advance for taking the time to read my post.
<S> Bill aka LTARmoil

LTARmoil
07-02-2004, 10:53 PM
Hello everyone, my name is Bill my handle is LTARmoil.
I am the CO of a GV squad in the {somewhat}massavely multiplayer online sim Aces High II. I have played IL2 since it first hit the shelves and has been my favorite sim of all time. However myself and others have kind of straid from the game ONLY due to it's limited number of players {multiplayer} and there is no manable GV's. To date we realize that IL2 is the most realistic WWII flight sim avail.
The reason for this post is to find out from Oleg himself OR the community if there is any way AT ALL we can bring this superb sim to the massively multiplayer arena?
I have taken this task upon myself to do everything in my power along with the help of my entire squad, not to mention approx 500 players from AH2 to help this sim make it to the MMP arena.
With Warbirds declining seriously in numbers, a lot of them moving to AH2 only to be disappointed in lack of realism, graphics and unstable game play. Unforunately there is NOTHING else avail in a MMP WWII combat genre of sims. I did some looking around and have found that there is almost as many squads for IL2 as there is for AH2, this is wonderful news.
I honestly beleive that if this sim were avail in a massively multiplayer arena, in a setting maybe similar to what AH is or Warbirds it would make history. {not to mention very profitable for Mr Maddox & UBI}
So, how do we get started? I have approx 500 names with signatures, all from very respected squads/players that want to make this a reality.
I have been playing AcesHigh for two years and I am very deeply involved in the AH community.
I don't wish anything negitive on Hightech Creations, but if myself and 1000 other players are going to spend $15 a month to participate than we should be getting are money's worth, and were not.
Please take me seriously when I say, I will help with anything to bring this sim to the massively multiplayer arena. I'm absolutely positive that the guys & gals from IL2 and AH2 would have a comradery of epic proportions.
Trust me when I say this is a passion.

Thank you all in advance for taking the time to read my post.
&lt;S&gt; Bill aka LTARmoil

goshikisen
07-02-2004, 11:35 PM
For the uninitiated... what is GV?

wayno7777
07-02-2004, 11:46 PM
I'm thinking ground vehicles.

http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/Dux_Wreck.jpg
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

LTARmoil
07-03-2004, 12:08 AM
Yes, GV is a ground vehicle, sorry.
Thank you for replying &lt;S&gt;

Jaws2002
07-03-2004, 12:49 AM
So finally you gonna get your behinds out of the "tank town" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif
Sorry. Just fooling around. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
It would be great to get FB to run with the numbers AH is running, but we would all need NASA's computers to run it and UBI would need to go rent some servers in another galaxy.
With the amount of detail this game has I don't see it running.
Heck just think of a 100 planes furbal over a CV, or the bloody GV battles in weekends.
Is just too much going on in this game.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/Uber2sm.jpg

PlaneEater
07-03-2004, 01:24 AM
I believe Oleg made a comment some time ago that there would never be player-operatable ground vehicles in IL-2, and that 32 players per server was the highest feasible number that could be implemented even across a LAN due to the sheer complexity of the sim, and thus the amount of data being transfered for each player.

The only alternative I can suggest is WWII Online.

S 8
07-03-2004, 01:26 AM
Nice sig Jaws http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

------------------------------
"My blue jeans is thight,so into my love rocket climb.Inside tank of fuel is not fuel but love,above us there is nothing above,but the stars,above."
Zlad

HUTCH_HUTCH
07-03-2004, 02:40 AM
Im not going to pay 15 or 10 a month to play this game ..its free and was a point they made some time ago..
if I want to play it for hours on end with others I can ..or I might not want to play it for months ..
Im not going to be a sheep like the others with a bank account just for a game to play on line ..or feel like im better cause ive payed more then the others
this game is stright across the board..FREE with what you can fly and how ..no rank no gods and not alot of weekly updates like some ..



sorry I had to say it ...

CHIN UP
http://www.villagephotos.com/image.asp?id_=7112181
Next time you in Eugene,Oregon stop by
http://www.fragnetgaming.com

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
07-03-2004, 03:47 AM
First off Welcome back to the fold mate S!

Its a real nice idea but (there is always a but) I think the technology is prolly a little while off to enable the kinda gaming that you talk about at the graphical level that we currently (most of us) enjoy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

CaptainGelo
07-03-2004, 03:51 AM
I bet we can do it with Crimson Skies..but dont think its possible with IL2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''
http://www.danasoft.com/sig/oleg86.jpg
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''


plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3) | Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif
Bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when they come for you..

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
07-03-2004, 03:57 AM
You know I may just dig that up again with all the whining about unrealism I have kinda got hungry for some real unreality lol Stuck a devastator in Xplane just the other day and that brought back some memories hehe

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

LTARmoil
07-03-2004, 04:24 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by HUTCH_HUTCH:
Im not going to pay 15 or 10 a month to play this game ..its free and was a point they made some time ago..
if I want to play it for hours on end with others I can ..or I might not want to play it for months ..
Im not going to be a sheep like the others with a bank account just for a game to play on line ..or feel like im better cause ive payed more then the others
this game is stright across the board..FREE with what you can fly and how ..no rank no gods and not alot of weekly updates like some ..



sorry I had to say it ...

Sorry, I wasn't aware IL2 was free?
And no offence to anyone, but I think you under estimate the power of this game & graphics engine.
Thanks again for the posts. &lt;S&gt;

OldMan____
07-03-2004, 04:39 AM
Just wait a little bit.. you will have something close of what you asked for... not from a softhouse that you would expect.. just wait http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

609IAP_Recon
07-03-2004, 04:40 AM
maybe the answer is to have small df servers as they are now for free, but if you want to be a part of a massive war, etc... then there would be a monthly charge http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

How is that for middle of the road politics- LOL

Salute!

IV/JG51_Recon

http://www.forgottenskies.com/jg51sig2.jpg

Jaws2002
07-03-2004, 07:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Superluminal:
Nice sig Jaws http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

------------------------------
"My blue jeans is thight,so into my love rocket climb.Inside tank of fuel is not fuel but love,above us there is nothing above,but the stars,above."
Zlad<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Sir.
Care for a head on? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif
http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v258/&lt;FA&gt;Jaws/Uber2_.jpg

I.JG53_Steuben
07-03-2004, 08:40 AM
www.fbow.de (http://www.fbow.de)

HuninMunin
07-03-2004, 08:44 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

"Ist das ein Weinachtsbaum?"
"Natürlich ist das ein Weinachtsbaum, oder glaubst du damit wird die Brücke getarnt?"

HUTCH_HUTCH
07-03-2004, 11:44 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LTARmoil
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gifSorry, I wasn't aware IL2 was free?And no offence to anyone, but I think you under estimate the power of this game & graphics engine.)
were did this come from...DUH

I wasent talking about the price of the game .....You said a monthly fee to play it on line....was I wrong ???? or were you saying it costs 10 to 15 bucks a month for the game????
and to think you are sorry that we under estimate the power of this game & graphics engine.THANK YOU
..... Just let Mr.maddox do his game the way he wants.they have been very suportive on this game ..better then any other game Ive played.Ive come to respect the name enough that when you see that his team has a hand in it ...its got to be good ..this game is proof.and look to the future for there will be a happy medium for all to enjoy..

CHIN UP
http://www.villagephotos.com/image.asp?id_=7112181
Next time you in Eugene,Oregon stop by
http://www.fragnetgaming.com

VOL_Hans
07-03-2004, 02:56 PM
I think that the lack of ground vehicles in IL-2 is merely because Oleg is too lazy to do it. Makeing a playable ground vehicle is not hard at all, it's rather simple to make an ad-hoc system for us to use.

Basacally it's a simple FM, stripped of all lift, with a slow top speed that decellerates fast. Weapons are already in place and could be controlled as gunner stations, adding MG's would be simple enough. Give a simple sight to tell where the buisness end of the guns point, and there you go!

Worked from scratch to get the whole set of tanks working in CFS-3...Took about 20 minutes...

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2004, 04:13 PM
The problem with GVs in air sim games is that the vehicles are usually not modelled to the same standards of fidelity as the planes are, in terms of damage modeling, vehicle movement modeling, etc. Thus, they become a silly little sideshow that detracts from the sim, and just creates a new layer of idiocy for players who can't stay focused on *flight simming*. The only current exception to this rule is WWIIOL.

The usual effect of GV dweebs is to use their vehicles in ways that are "air-centric", rather than their real "ground centric" mission, in most cases. Yes, it is true that ground vehicles are sometimes detailed to air defence, but then, you find these in AI units, and well represented without players needing to perform this function. So, you'll get player-dweebed tanks and halftracks rolling up on airfields, when what they ought to be doing is trying to take a crossroads or move the front forward.

Sorry to tell ya, LTARmoil, but squads like yours are a cancer to flight sims. Might I suggest putting all that energy into getting your guys more well versed at *flying* and take your skills to the air?

Fennec_P
07-03-2004, 04:18 PM
And then you would have Aces High.

The main thing that sets IL-2 apart from the rest is the quality and accuracy. I doubt the IL-2 engine could properly model vehicles. Even if it did, how long would it take to model vehicles to the same standards as the aircraft?

Things like WWII:Online, Warbirds, or Aces high model many types of platforms, but only by having very poor standards for the visuals, FM and DM.

RedDeth
07-03-2004, 04:55 PM
large land battles lagg the heck out of servers. bad idea we dont need more stuff lagging out the servers

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://66.237.29.231/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/120_1088291823_taylor-greycap.jpg

WB_Outlaw
07-03-2004, 05:13 PM
I find it hard to believe that a 32 player server will saturate a LAN game while the 30 player WarClouds server runs fine over the internet. If that is the case then bandwidth is not the issue.

The below is based on my admittedly limited knowledge of netgames...

The complexity of the graphics and flight model has little impact on netplay as all of that is handled on the client side. I remember reading in an early manual that cities with large numbers of building and static objects require more bandiwdth b/c the server has to send status updates to each player for every object. I see no reason for the server to do this unless the status changes, and that is not very often for buildings. In the current DF scenario, I would think that only the players, AAA, and vehicles that fire should require many updates.

I only see two things that would limit the number of players supported with one being the anti-cheat code running on the server(which monitors the client side flight model). Another possibility is if other players control inputs are sent to each client and the client system actually computes the results of the other players inputs.

Keep in mind that a pay for play server will not be running on a Windows 2003 server with 1 gig of RAM and a Gigabyte motherboard you can buy at Fry's. It will be running on 4+ way server(s) with many gigs of RAM and, at the very least, multiple gigabit network adapters so the anti-cheat can be overcome with raw computing power. I'm at a loss on the second situation.

...End of admittedly limited knowledge


No one is suggesting that the current DF servers be eliminated, just that a MMP version be developed.

If the player base exists for a pay for play service, and I believe it does, then there would be plenty of money for modeling ground vehicles and aircraft to the developer's pointlessly high standards. Ground vehicles would not have to be modeled as accurately anyway since the purpose of the game would still be as a flight simulation. The ground vehicles would be there to ADD to the overall game play, not define it. Those who care that much about ground vehicles would need to go elsewhere.

WW II online MMP flight sims have existed since at least 1989 when I started playing on a 300 baud modem. An EGA card in a 386SX 16 put you in the top 3% of player computing power. Unless the flight model complexity has outpaced the hardware advancement since then (I don't know and I'm not suggesting either way) I don't see why an AEP/PF/BOB based MMP service is not feasible, at least from a technical standpoint.

-Outlaw.

[This message was edited by WB_Outlaw on Sat July 03 2004 at 04:25 PM.]

Aaron_GT
07-03-2004, 06:20 PM
"Unforunately there is NOTHING else avail in a MMP WWII combat genre of sims. "

There is WW2OL.

Potentially there is also TargetWare, which supports larger numbers in theory than Aces High, and has better graphics and FMs. Currently the beta servers average less than 10 players, though.

JG14_Josf
07-03-2004, 06:21 PM
LTARmoil,

Thanks for the post. It was very well written, concise and thought provoking.

I share your concern and hopes.

Please take a look at the link posted by I.JG53_Steuben:

Compromise (http://www.fbow.de/)

I changed the title on the link to illustrate a point.

If an on-line war were to gain massive support then a producer would take notice.

An on-line war can be so constructed as to make the best of what is currently doable with IL2/FB minus the single server massive multiplayer capabilities.

If such an on-line war were so constructed as to be popular because of it's ability to almost make a massive multiplayer environment then perhaps a game producer will take notice and see the need to commit the resources needed to make massive multiplayer work with a highly refined simulator.

The market developers are going to listen to market forces. If they do not they will cease to earn a profit.

IL2 is serving the accuracy market. If you can bridge the gap between that market and the massive multiplayer market then it may help to illustrate the accuracy of massive multiplaying.

I think it can be done. An on-line war utilizing what is available with the IL2 program and the current player base that includes many high powered servers run by dedicated players can be so constructed as to be very popular and accurately simulate the WWII war in the air by galvanizing many players into a single dynamic event.

Once such an event gains in popularity where many if not most of the on-line players are inspired toward participation then the obvious conclusion a game producer would make is to tap into that interest by making the game run on a single server or perhaps even an array of servers.

Innovation requires imagination, but somebody has to bring home the bacon.

Aaron_GT
07-03-2004, 06:30 PM
For a MMP, perhaps Oleg should do a deal with HiTech creations or totalsims. The netcode for both of these seems to scale reasonably well, and an FB/IL2 MMP would be serious competition. Perhaps by letting them handle the new netcode and the servers everyone can benefit?

WWMaxGunz
07-03-2004, 09:43 PM
Perhaps more in line with his desires will either be a later-made 1C sim or to get
involved with or at least ask about what Target:Rabaul and the spinoffs of that will
provide. I believe the specialized and heavy duty server and game environment he
is looking for may be either available through that sim or at least possible. It's
not from Oleg but it's not supposed to be **** and there's been free beta going but
that time may be over. Not sure what the fee is either but they have package deals.


Neal

BennyMoore
07-04-2004, 12:25 AM
Some of us don't have a monthly allowance from Mummy and Daddy. Some of us have to work ****ing hard for our money, and cannot justify wasting it on this sort of ******y. If I pay for a game with money that I break my *** for in some damned hole, I sure as hell don't feel like paying it again. And again... And again... And again...

Moreover, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way the multiplayer is set up now. You kiddies are asking for some Lagathon with five billion lamers tearing around a sky so thick with planes that you don't have to aim to get kills. And think of the chat log. Oh, yes, by all means, add vehicles. This is what this game is all about, right?

For the record, however, the IL-2 engine is perfectly capable of modelling very realistic land based war. I don't remember what it's called (perhaps "Soldier?"), but Oleg made a very cool tank simulation strategy type thing.

It just wouldn't be a good idea to integrate it into the current air thing and charge us for the priviledge of choosing between doing the same thing we've been doing for free since the original IL-2 Sturmovik, or dicking around with land vehicles.

When I want land war, I go play Operation Flashpoint. When I want aerial combat, I play this game right here.

WB_Outlaw
07-04-2004, 01:56 PM
I work for a living just like you do so get off your high horse BM. I'm sorry you don't have enough disposable income for such a service but many of us do. It's a moot point anyway b/c nobody suggested getting rid of the current DF server and moving to a pay for play service only. Did you even read any of this thread?

It's great that you think the current DF server is the ultimate in aerial combat simulation and that development should be halted immediately to preserve what you think is perfection, but many of would like more depth to the experience.

Realtime MMP games have been around for years without being "lagathons". I've participated in Air Warrior events that had over 300 players online in the same arena. The chat was not a problem at all. Of course, that's a moot point also with the plethora of voice comms options available. I don't even look at the chat except when I'm checking stats/target status.

-Outlaw.

LTARmoil
07-04-2004, 02:27 PM
Thank you all for your wonderful input & posts. Thank you Outlaw for your post it is right on the money. BennyMoore, I can understand your postion and do not wish to take anything away, but lets face it your complaining about something with little substance.
As if the rest of us don't work our tails off to provide for families & such. Secondly your comment about "kiddies" creating a "lag-a-thon" in masses is farfetched IMO. Maybe it's the company you keep or the servers in which you play on? The type of game play in which I'm trying to lean this sim towards is not what you're thinking. I realize in a MMP sim there is always the "kiddies" but these folks are far & few between. This isn't Counter Strike in air craft, these type of sims don't attrack that crowd.
In AH the avg player age is 32 {37yrs old myself} I play with adults, the youngest guy in my squad is 23. And when a "younger" player with a "kiddie" additude shows up he finds out real fast that his behavior is unacceptable and usually changes his tune or leaves the game.
As stated before, I'm not here to try and change things, or the players/squads or make people do things they {the community} don't wan't to do. I am just throwing things on the table and asking questions. From all the posts I can see some are torn between what they'd like to see and some are just comfortable with the "just leave it alone" view on things.
This is all great input, I have total respect for Oleg's work, this Sim and it's entire community weather I agree with it or not. I know you guys & gals are very protective of this sim community, just as I am of ours. This is where I believe our strengths lie.
Thank you again for your time and posts. &lt;S&gt;

Nexus2005
07-04-2004, 07:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This isn't Counter Strike in air craft, these type of sims don't attrack that crowd. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oi, I'm a Counter Strike gamer originally and this sim very much attracted me. I know many other CS players who play IL2 as well, so easy on the CS bashing and don't tar us all with the same brush as the 1337 crowd just as we don't think you are all immature whiners who cry because their favourite plane isn't the best and so they think it is undermodelled, or other planes are overmodelled etc. even though there seems to be a good number of those around http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.bobcs.co.uk/sig/Nexussig/sig2.jpg (http://www.bobcs.co.uk)

LTARmoil
07-05-2004, 12:25 AM
I'm sure your a great participant in the game and I do not mean to offend, but I think you get my point.
If there is any ONE game in history that has attracked more smacktards, haXors, cheats and overall immuturity I think the community would agree. I was talking in a whole, not EVERY player that has ever played CS. &lt;S&gt;

Fehler
07-05-2004, 07:01 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LTARmoil:
smacktardsQUOTE]

Smacktards... heh, he said Smacktards.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

BennyMoore
07-05-2004, 03:20 PM
On the other hand, there are a very many issues of staggering unlrealisms that need to be fixed before Oleg should even begin to think about making the multiplayer bigger. Why have bigger multiplayer when we have problems like huge muzzle flashes, concrete-mounted pilot heads, and fighter jet lift models? I recently tried an experiement in which I attempted to slide off on one wing in the game the way I had just seen a Spitfire do in footage; you can't, because the aircraft in the game keep their lift as if their wings are level, even if they are in a ninety degree bank).

WTE_Galway
07-06-2004, 06:12 PM
the net load problem is solved in some (non flightsim) games by running multiple servers with portals

the only problem with this approach in IL2 is if you were dogfighting in an area of the map where you continually crossed between servers